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Oh, by nowadays I thought you were to referring to more recent times. I wouldn't include Rogue Legacy at all -  I see it as a kind of Castlevania sandbox, lacking the very core of Metroidvania design. The fact you included it even half-heartedly goes to show how many different interpretations the Metroidvania term has.
red chamber dream
i haven't played it so i was guessing on that one based on what i've read. so i'm sure you're right.
red chamber dream
i've never understood the term "metroidvania" though ... castlevania has nothing to do with the metroid formula at all
It's referring to the fact that Metroid and post-SotN Castlevanias defined the genre in the public's mind.
red chamber dream
right but i don't get why they're considered part of the same genre

they seem very different. castlevanias are primarily action games and metroid isn't (or didn't used to be lol mpff)
Anywhere, everywhere
Well, Bloodstained is the biggest Kickstarter in history, so people clearly want more Metroidvanias.
red chamber dream
that's true

bet shenmue iii will pass it though
I wouldn't call post-SotN 2D Castlevanias any more action-focused than Metroid, but I'm sure the Metroidvania term itself pays tribute to its confused nature. Is it just referring to exploration itself, which could be done in a sandbox? Or is the "go through A find B go back through A with B to reach C" backtracking and key ability-based approach that heavily depends on meticulous level design part of its core? The Souls series is basically 3D Metroidvania without key abilties, but no one ever calls it that.
Edit history:
Turtle: 2015-06-21 06:25:52 pm
I like turtles.
I would call key abilities a big part of the genre, though: the sense that you're improving your character in ways that are absolute and not simply higher stats.  Space Jump, for instance, is essentially the "you can fly now" powerup and it not only opens up much of the game world but is cool, fun, and effective to use.  Same with Gravity Boots in SotN.  Even though 'vanias are usually more stat oriented, they include those items that do more than boost the RPG numbers - they also change up how you play the game in a big way. 

The best installments also make these powerups useful all around instead of in the context of getting past a few arbitrary obstacles.  Rather than meticulous level design based on those abilities, Super Metroid kind of just let you figure out the uses for them yourself, only in a few instances requiring one item or another to progress depending on player cleverness.  Super Missiles open green doors, sure, but they also blow things up five times quicker than regular ones!  In a way, I think it's possible to "overdesign" a game to the point where every Tab A you find fits very neatly into Slot B and nowhere else, but Metroidvanias are often fun because they avert this (even if unintentionally, a la Prime).  Honestly, the only thing separating the original Legend of Zelda from the original Metroid was the top-down perspective.  The way you found what you needed and tackled dungeons in more or less any order is a closer match to Metroidvania than it is to modern Zelda.

In Super and most other entries, you start off with absolutely nothing except a basic beam attack.  You fight tooth and nail for every upgrade until by the end of the game almost nothing remains a threat.  But it's not because you spent that time grinding for levels.  Even in Castlevania the RPG level system doesn't mean all that much.  Rather success comes because you navigated the game world, found upgrades, learned their mechanics individually, and used them to find even better upgrades.  This is a much better system of growth to me than just fighting that one fisherman with six Gyarados over and over.  It involves and engages the player.  Maybe even immerses them with good presentation.  I would say this sense of growth is common to both SotNvanias and Metroid, hence the combined term for the genre.

Terraria is another qualifying example of what I'm talking about, because I think a main sense of fun people get from it is finding all the weapons, items, and gear, many of which have unique effects rather than being simple in-numbers-only upgrades to what they already have.  The item progression is simply amazing, and it truly is nonlinear in the best tradition of the genre: you can find some pretty OP stuff before even getting to "mid-game."  But equally as compelling about the game is that even if you go through it all more or less evenly, the gear you end up with later makes noob enemies an absolute joke.  Easily trouncing early parts of the game upon backtracking is sometimes viewed as annoying, but if it doesn't overstay its welcome, I'd argue it's pretty important for giving the player a sense of growth, just like losing a hundred pounds and keeping the photo of fat-you as evidence of progress.

TL;DR, I would argue the definition of "Metroidvania" hinges on non-RPG-style character growth equally as much as "exploration."
Not impossible
just highly unlikely
I hate the term Metroidvania too, but we don't really glace a better word yet to describe a 2D action game with a non-linear map in which you find power ups for your character within the game world that give you abilities that allows you to access parts of the map that you could not before.

I mean, you could say action-adventure but it's not that specific.
Club 27 Goals
Quote from Serris:
If FF is successful, someone might be saying similar things about it ten years from now. To classic Metroid fans, Prime was in the same position FF is in now.

Not really though, because it was literally just the 2D metroids in a 3D environment instead. It was a natural and necessary progression for the series, akin to Mario going 3D as well. FF is clearly a spinoff game that nobody was asking for. Lots of Metroid fans wanted a 3D metroid for a long time.

Quote from Serris:
No one could be sure how close it would adhere to the formula while making this transition.

We did once we saw the trailers and gameplay annoucnements for it. From the trails and gameplay announcement for FF it's clear it's nothing at all what makes a metroid game, "metroid".

Quote from Serris:
Loads of people love Prime, and love it more than the 2Ds; should Nintendo take away from that that people didn't care about the platforming in the 2Ds and were glad to see the focus shift to shooting? Or do people just love explorative gameplay in all its forms?

Honestly, part of the appeal WAS moving away from focusing on the platforming elements into this bigger game. Prime still had a lot of the secret-finding elements ("puzzles" as well), and still had the key exploration part, on top of the whole scanning aspect and a shooting system that made you feel much more immersed into the environment. Not to mention the fact that it seems that the 3D prime games appealed more to the mainstream as well, since it wasn't restricted to a handheld, on top of the fact that it was a very pretty game which made it great for plastering in magazines and showing off how good the gamecube could make games look if done properly.
The difference is Prime, despite making a significant jump to 3D and showing the game from a different perspective than players were used to, still retained what made Metroid Metroid. That's why it was such a success. With Federation Force they're being pretty upfront that this is not your typical Metroid game. So no, I really don't think it's the same situation.
Club 27 Goals
Quote from arkarian:
that's true

bet shenmue iii will pass it though


Yeah Bloodstained raised 5.5mil in 30 days, and Shenmue has raised 3.5 with another 26 days left to go. I'm guessing it'll hit around the 7million mark.

Comparatively, when Bloodstained had 26 days let they were just over 2mil
Dood Trigger™
Quote from Toozin:
I hate the term Metroidvania too, but we don't really glace a better word yet to describe a 2D action game with a non-linear map in which you find power ups for your character within the game world that give you abilities that allows you to access parts of the map that you could not before.

I mean, you could say action-adventure but it's not that specific.

Totally agree with this. Metroid is just so hard to define in any genre.
red chamber dream
if anything something like banjo-tooie is closer to metroid than castlevania is
The term Metroidvania makes me think more of map design than specific game mechanics. That's sorta what defines it to me.
red chamber dream
for me it's "you find weapons/powerups that also act as keys, and there's backtracking"
Dood Trigger™
I'm actually playing Tooie right now <3
red chamber dream
nice. i love that game. definitely at least equal to bk.
Quote from arkarian:
nice. i love that game. definitely at least equal to bk.


I prefer tooie over kazooie honestly, it's a more exploration/puzzle-focused game than platforming-focused (while kazooie's the opposite). Granted, both have plenty of both and are both amazing.

What's really cool, though, is the fact that in tooie, you retain everything you learned from kazooie. I really can't think of any "metroidvania" that actually does that with its sequels. You always lose everything and/or start with less in metroid, and you're a different character in many castlevanie games. But in tooie, you're basically banjo+kazooie from the first game, with every move you've learned in that game, and you learn even more. It's pretty awesome

The unfortunate thing is that tooie sorta expects you to be comfortable with every BK move right off the bat. While this is fine if you've played BK first, it's sort of a problem if you play tooie first (which I did. Yes, I'm weird), even though the game lets you look for bottles molehills at the very start to refresh you on BK abilities.
red chamber dream
yeah tooie is incredible. love how they left it in the exact same world and just expanded everything. entering jinjo village for the first time fucking blew me away.

i have a feeling most people will prefer the one they played first, though. kazooie is really special to me for that reason, but i also think it's easily the best 3d platformer ever made. the music and level design in that game is so great, it's hard for me to put it below tooie. but i can't really put it above tooie, either ... bt's one of the best adventure games ever made.
Dood Trigger™
Tooie is really awesome. I tend to prefer BK mainly because its areas are more compact and the Jiggies are super easy to collect. I think BK is paced just right between platforming and treasure hunting, while BT is a freaking *massive* adventure that I have to be in the right mood to play or else things can get a little overwhelming. But yeah, both games are equally brilliant IMO.
Quote from kirbymastah:
Quote from arkarian:
nice. i love that game. definitely at least equal to bk.


I prefer tooie over kazooie honestly, it's a more exploration/puzzle-focused game than platforming-focused (while kazooie's the opposite). Granted, both have plenty of both and are both amazing.

What's really cool, though, is the fact that in tooie, you retain everything you learned from kazooie. I really can't think of any "metroidvania" that actually does that with its sequels. You always lose everything and/or start with less in metroid, and you're a different character in many castlevanie games. But in tooie, you're basically banjo+kazooie from the first game, with every move you've learned in that game, and you learn even more. It's pretty awesome

The unfortunate thing is that tooie sorta expects you to be comfortable with every BK move right off the bat. While this is fine if you've played BK first, it's sort of a problem if you play tooie first (which I did. Yes, I'm weird), even though the game lets you look for bottles molehills at the very start to refresh you on BK abilities.



I played tooie first, too and I stopped playing after about 6 hours or so.  Maybe I should play kazooie first.  Aren't both games getting touched up right now?  I'd hate to start playing the original version only to have a better looking one come out right away.
red chamber dream
afaik it's going to look exactly the same as the existing 360 version. might as well start now.

i very much do NOT recommend playing tooie first. that's a terrible idea.
Quote from Da Dood:
Tooie is really awesome. I tend to prefer BK mainly because its areas are more compact and the Jiggies are super easy to collect. I think BK is paced just right between platforming and treasure hunting, while BT is a freaking *massive* adventure that I have to be in the right mood to play or else things can get a little overwhelming. But yeah, both games are equally brilliant IMO.


I mostly agree with you. As i mentioned, tooie is more exploration heavy while kazooie is more level/platforming heavy. In a sense, tooie is basically bigger and more complex than kazooie in every way possible, for better and worse. Thanks to this, it's sorta easier to pick up kazooie "on the go" than it is for tooie, since for tooie, it's more important to remember what you did last time.


I really really really recommend playing kazooie then tooie. While I played tooie first, I'm pretty sure I would've enjoyed the experience more (though I certainly loved it my first playthrough regardless) if i played kazooie first and understood all the jokes, along with already being familiar with the mechanics from kazooie.