A very pressing matter regarding MP:FF

2015-06-21 02:27:29 pm

Oh, by nowadays I thought you were to referring to more recent times. I wouldn't include Rogue Legacy at all - I see it as a kind of Castlevania sandbox, lacking the very core of Metroidvania design. The fact you included it even half-heartedly goes to show how many different interpretations the Metroidvania term has.

arkarian

2015-06-21 02:32:48 pm

red chamber dream

i haven't played it so i was guessing on that one based on what i've read. so i'm sure you're right.

arkarian

2015-06-21 02:33:49 pm

red chamber dream

i've never understood the term "metroidvania" though ... castlevania has nothing to do with the metroid formula at all

Serris

2015-06-21 02:36:43 pm

It's referring to the fact that Metroid and post-SotN Castlevanias defined the genre in the public's mind.

arkarian

2015-06-21 02:39:19 pm

red chamber dream

right but i don't get why they're considered part of the same genre

they seem very different. castlevanias are primarily action games and metroid isn't (or didn't used to be lol mpff)

rekameohs

2015-06-21 02:39:51 pm

Anywhere, everywhere

Well, Bloodstained is the biggest Kickstarter in history, so people clearly want more Metroidvanias.

arkarian

2015-06-21 02:48:07 pm

red chamber dream

that's true

bet shenmue iii will pass it though

Serris

2015-06-21 02:48:44 pm

I wouldn't call post-SotN 2D Castlevanias any more action-focused than Metroid, but I'm sure the Metroidvania term itself pays tribute to its confused nature. Is it just referring to exploration itself, which could be done in a sandbox? Or is the "go through A find B go back through A with B to reach C" backtracking and key ability-based approach that heavily depends on meticulous level design part of its core? The Souls series is basically 3D Metroidvania without key abilties, but no one ever calls it that.

Turtle

Edit history:

Turtle: 2015-06-21 06:25:52 pm

2015-06-21 06:25:20 pm

I like turtles.

I would call key abilities a big part of the genre, though: the sense that you're improving your character in ways that are absolute and not simply higher stats. Space Jump, for instance, is essentially the "you can fly now" powerup and it not only opens up much of the game world but is cool, fun, and effective to use. Same with Gravity Boots in SotN. Even though 'vanias are usually more stat oriented, they include those items that do more than boost the RPG numbers - they also change up how you play the game in a big way.

The best installments also make these powerups useful all around instead of in the context of getting past a few arbitrary obstacles. Rather than meticulous level design based on those abilities, Super Metroid kind of just let you figure out the uses for them yourself, only in a few instances requiring one item or another to progress depending on player cleverness. Super Missiles open green doors, sure, but they also blow things up five times quicker than regular ones! In a way, I think it's possible to "overdesign" a game to the point where every Tab A you find fits very neatly into Slot B and nowhere else, but Metroidvanias are often fun because they avert this (even if unintentionally, a la Prime). Honestly, the only thing separating the original Legend of Zelda from the original Metroid was the top-down perspective. The way you found what you needed and tackled dungeons in more or less any order is a closer match to Metroidvania than it is to modern Zelda.

In Super and most other entries, you start off with absolutely nothing except a basic beam attack. You fight tooth and nail for every upgrade until by the end of the game almost nothing remains a threat. But it's not because you spent that time grinding for levels. Even in Castlevania the RPG level system doesn't mean all that much. Rather success comes because you navigated the game world, found upgrades, learned their mechanics individually, and used them to find even better upgrades. This is a much better system of growth to me than just fighting that one fisherman with six Gyarados over and over. It involves and engages the player. Maybe even immerses them with good presentation. I would say this sense of growth is common to both SotNvanias and Metroid, hence the combined term for the genre.

Terraria is another qualifying example of what I'm talking about, because I think a main sense of fun people get from it is finding all the weapons, items, and gear, many of which have unique effects rather than being simple in-numbers-only upgrades to what they already have. The item progression is simply amazing, and it truly is nonlinear in the best tradition of the genre: you can find some pretty OP stuff before even getting to "mid-game." But equally as compelling about the game is that even if you go through it all more or less evenly, the gear you end up with later makes noob enemies an absolute joke. Easily trouncing early parts of the game upon backtracking is sometimes viewed as annoying, but if it doesn't overstay its welcome, I'd argue it's pretty important for giving the player a sense of growth, just like losing a hundred pounds and keeping the photo of fat-you as evidence of progress.

TL;DR, I would argue the definition of "Metroidvania" hinges on non-RPG-style character growth equally as much as "exploration."

I would call key abilities a big part of the genre, though: the sense that you're improving your character in ways that are absolute and not simply higher stats.  Space Jump, for instance, is essentially the "you can fly now" powerup and it not only opens up much of the game world but is cool, fun, and effective to use.  Same with Gravity Boots in SotN.  Even though 'vanias are usually more stat oriented, they include those items that do more than boost the RPG numbers - they also change up how you play the game in a big way.

The best installments also make these powerups useful all around instead of in the context of getting past a few arbitrary obstacles.  Rather than meticulous level design based on those abilities, [i]Super Metroid[/i] kind of just let you figure out the uses for them yourself, only in a few instances requiring one item or another to progress depending on player cleverness.  Super Missiles open green doors, sure, but they also blow things up five times quicker than regular ones!  In a way, I think it's possible to "overdesign" a game to the point where every Tab A you find fits very neatly into Slot B and nowhere else, but Metroidvanias are often fun because they avert this (even if unintentionally, a la [i]Prime[/i]).  Honestly, the only thing separating the original [i]Legend of Zelda[/i] from the original [i]Metroid[/i] was the top-down perspective.  The way you found what you needed and tackled dungeons in more or less any order is a closer match to Metroidvania than it is to modern [i]Zelda[/i].

In [i]Super[/i] and most other entries, you start off with absolutely nothing except a basic beam attack.  You fight tooth and nail for every upgrade until by the end of the game almost nothing remains a threat.  But it's not because you spent that time grinding for levels.  Even in [i]Castlevania[/i] the RPG level system doesn't mean all that much.  Rather success comes because you navigated the game world, found upgrades, learned their mechanics individually, and used them to find even better upgrades.  This is a much better system of growth to me than just fighting that one fisherman with six Gyarados over and over.  It involves and engages the player.  Maybe even immerses them with good presentation.  I would say this sense of growth is common to both SotNvanias and [i]Metroid[/i], hence the combined term for the genre.

[i]Terraria[/i] is another qualifying example of what I'm talking about, because I think a main sense of fun people get from it is finding all the weapons, items, and gear, many of which have unique effects rather than being simple in-numbers-only upgrades to what they already have.  The item progression is simply amazing, and it truly is nonlinear in the best tradition of the genre: you can find some pretty OP stuff before even getting to "mid-game."  But equally as compelling about the game is that even if you go through it all more or less evenly, the gear you end up with later makes noob enemies an absolute joke.  Easily trouncing early parts of the game upon backtracking is sometimes viewed as annoying, but if it doesn't overstay its welcome, I'd argue it's pretty important for giving the player a sense of growth, just like losing a hundred pounds and keeping the photo of fat-you as evidence of progress.

TL;DR, I would argue the definition of "Metroidvania" hinges on non-RPG-style character growth equally as much as "exploration."

Toozin

2015-06-21 09:12:36 pm

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

I hate the term Metroidvania too, but we don't really glace a better word yet to describe a 2D action game with a non-linear map in which you find power ups for your character within the game world that give you abilities that allows you to access parts of the map that you could not before.

I mean, you could say action-adventure but it's not that specific.

Poision Envy

2015-06-21 09:38:42 pm

Club 27 Goals

Quote from Serris:

If FF is successful, someone might be saying similar things about it ten years from now. To classic Metroid fans, Prime was in the same position FF is in now.

Not really though, because it was literally just the 2D metroids in a 3D environment instead. It was a natural and necessary progression for the series, akin to Mario going 3D as well. FF is clearly a spinoff game that nobody was asking for. Lots of Metroid fans wanted a 3D metroid for a long time.

Quote from Serris:

No one could be sure how close it would adhere to the formula while making this transition.

We did once we saw the trailers and gameplay annoucnements for it. From the trails and gameplay announcement for FF it's clear it's nothing at all what makes a metroid game, "metroid".

Quote from Serris:

Loads of people love Prime, and love it more than the 2Ds; should Nintendo take away from that that people didn't care about the platforming in the 2Ds and were glad to see the focus shift to shooting? Or do people just love explorative gameplay in all its forms?

Honestly, part of the appeal WAS moving away from focusing on the platforming elements into this bigger game. Prime still had a lot of the secret-finding elements ("puzzles" as well), and still had the key exploration part, on top of the whole scanning aspect and a shooting system that made you feel much more immersed into the environment. Not to mention the fact that it seems that the 3D prime games appealed more to the mainstream as well, since it wasn't restricted to a handheld, on top of the fact that it was a very pretty game which made it great for plastering in magazines and showing off how good the gamecube could make games look if done properly.

[quote="Serris"]If FF is successful, someone might be saying similar things about it ten years from now. To classic Metroid fans, Prime was in the same position FF is in now.[/quote]
Not really though, because it was literally just the 2D metroids in a 3D environment instead. It was a natural and necessary progression for the series, akin to Mario going 3D as well. FF is clearly a spinoff game that nobody was asking for. Lots of Metroid fans wanted a 3D metroid for a long time.

[quote="Serris"]No one could be sure how close it would adhere to the formula while making this transition.[/quote]
We did once we saw the trailers and gameplay annoucnements for it. From the trails and gameplay announcement for FF it's clear it's nothing at all what makes a metroid game, "metroid".

[quote="Serris"]Loads of people love Prime, and love it more than the 2Ds; should Nintendo take away from that that people didn't care about the platforming in the 2Ds and were glad to see the focus shift to shooting? Or do people just love explorative gameplay in all its forms?[/quote]
Honestly, part of the appeal WAS moving away from focusing on the platforming elements into this bigger game. Prime still had a lot of the secret-finding elements ("puzzles" as well), and still had the key exploration part, on top of the whole scanning aspect and a shooting system that made you feel much more immersed into the environment. Not to mention the fact that it seems that the 3D prime games appealed more to the mainstream as well, since it wasn't restricted to a handheld, on top of the fact that it was a very pretty game which made it great for plastering in magazines and showing off how good the gamecube could make games look if done properly.

Aruki

2015-06-21 09:40:07 pm

The difference is Prime, despite making a significant jump to 3D and showing the game from a different perspective than players were used to, still retained what made Metroid Metroid. That's why it was such a success. With Federation Force they're being pretty upfront that this is not your typical Metroid game. So no, I really don't think it's the same situation.

Poision Envy

2015-06-21 09:42:12 pm

Club 27 Goals

Quote from arkarian:

that's true

bet shenmue iii will pass it though

Yeah Bloodstained raised 5.5mil in 30 days, and Shenmue has raised 3.5 with another 26 days left to go. I'm guessing it'll hit around the 7million mark.

Comparatively, when Bloodstained had 26 days let they were just over 2mil

Da Dood

2015-06-21 10:09:35 pm

Dood Trigger™

Quote from Toozin:

I hate the term Metroidvania too, but we don't really glace a better word yet to describe a 2D action game with a non-linear map in which you find power ups for your character within the game world that give you abilities that allows you to access parts of the map that you could not before.

I mean, you could say action-adventure but it's not that specific.

Totally agree with this. Metroid is just so hard to define in any genre.

arkarian

2015-06-21 10:10:19 pm

red chamber dream

if anything something like banjo-tooie is closer to metroid than castlevania is

Aruki

2015-06-21 10:11:46 pm

The term Metroidvania makes me think more of map design than specific game mechanics. That's sorta what defines it to me.

arkarian

2015-06-21 10:14:32 pm

red chamber dream

for me it's "you find weapons/powerups that also act as keys, and there's backtracking"

Da Dood

2015-06-21 10:16:13 pm

Dood Trigger™

I'm actually playing Tooie right now <3

arkarian

2015-06-21 10:17:58 pm

red chamber dream

nice. i love that game. definitely at least equal to bk.

kirbymastah

2015-06-22 12:21:45 pm

Quote from arkarian:

nice. i love that game. definitely at least equal to bk.

I prefer tooie over kazooie honestly, it's a more exploration/puzzle-focused game than platforming-focused (while kazooie's the opposite). Granted, both have plenty of both and are both amazing.

What's really cool, though, is the fact that in tooie, you retain everything you learned from kazooie. I really can't think of any "metroidvania" that actually does that with its sequels. You always lose everything and/or start with less in metroid, and you're a different character in many castlevanie games. But in tooie, you're basically banjo+kazooie from the first game, with every move you've learned in that game, and you learn even more. It's pretty awesome

The unfortunate thing is that tooie sorta expects you to be comfortable with every BK move right off the bat. While this is fine if you've played BK first, it's sort of a problem if you play tooie first (which I did. Yes, I'm weird), even though the game lets you look for bottles molehills at the very start to refresh you on BK abilities.

[quote="arkarian"]nice. i love that game. definitely at least equal to bk.[/quote]

I prefer tooie over kazooie honestly, it's a more exploration/puzzle-focused game than platforming-focused (while kazooie's the opposite). Granted, both have plenty of both and are both amazing.

What's really cool, though, is the fact that in tooie, you retain everything you learned from kazooie. I really can't think of any "metroidvania" that actually does that with its sequels. You always lose everything and/or start with less in metroid, and you're a different character in many castlevanie games. But in tooie, you're basically banjo+kazooie from the first game, with every move you've learned in that game, and you learn even more. It's pretty awesome

The unfortunate thing is that tooie sorta expects you to be comfortable with every BK move right off the bat. While this is fine if you've played BK first, it's sort of a problem if you play tooie first (which I did. Yes, I'm weird), even though the game lets you look for bottles molehills at the very start to refresh you on BK abilities.

arkarian

2015-06-22 02:01:46 pm

red chamber dream

yeah tooie is incredible. love how they left it in the exact same world and just expanded everything. entering jinjo village for the first time fucking blew me away.

i have a feeling most people will prefer the one they played first, though. kazooie is really special to me for that reason, but i also think it's easily the best 3d platformer ever made. the music and level design in that game is so great, it's hard for me to put it below tooie. but i can't really put it above tooie, either ... bt's one of the best adventure games ever made.

Da Dood

2015-06-22 02:24:33 pm

Dood Trigger™

Tooie is really awesome. I tend to prefer BK mainly because its areas are more compact and the Jiggies are super easy to collect. I think BK is paced just right between platforming and treasure hunting, while BT is a freaking *massive* adventure that I have to be in the right mood to play or else things can get a little overwhelming. But yeah, both games are equally brilliant IMO.

Opium

2015-06-22 03:07:04 pm

Quote from kirbymastah:

Quote from arkarian:

nice. i love that game. definitely at least equal to bk.

I prefer tooie over kazooie honestly, it's a more exploration/puzzle-focused game than platforming-focused (while kazooie's the opposite). Granted, both have plenty of both and are both amazing.

What's really cool, though, is the fact that in tooie, you retain everything you learned from kazooie. I really can't think of any "metroidvania" that actually does that with its sequels. You always lose everything and/or start with less in metroid, and you're a different character in many castlevanie games. But in tooie, you're basically banjo+kazooie from the first game, with every move you've learned in that game, and you learn even more. It's pretty awesome

The unfortunate thing is that tooie sorta expects you to be comfortable with every BK move right off the bat. While this is fine if you've played BK first, it's sort of a problem if you play tooie first (which I did. Yes, I'm weird), even though the game lets you look for bottles molehills at the very start to refresh you on BK abilities.

I played tooie first, too and I stopped playing after about 6 hours or so. Maybe I should play kazooie first. Aren't both games getting touched up right now? I'd hate to start playing the original version only to have a better looking one come out right away.

[quote="kirbymastah"][quote="arkarian"]nice. i love that game. definitely at least equal to bk.[/quote]

I prefer tooie over kazooie honestly, it's a more exploration/puzzle-focused game than platforming-focused (while kazooie's the opposite). Granted, both have plenty of both and are both amazing.

What's really cool, though, is the fact that in tooie, you retain everything you learned from kazooie. I really can't think of any "metroidvania" that actually does that with its sequels. You always lose everything and/or start with less in metroid, and you're a different character in many castlevanie games. But in tooie, you're basically banjo+kazooie from the first game, with every move you've learned in that game, and you learn even more. It's pretty awesome

The unfortunate thing is that tooie sorta expects you to be comfortable with every BK move right off the bat. While this is fine if you've played BK first, it's sort of a problem if you play tooie first (which I did. Yes, I'm weird), even though the game lets you look for bottles molehills at the very start to refresh you on BK abilities.[/quote]

I played tooie first, too and I stopped playing after about 6 hours or so.  Maybe I should play kazooie first.  Aren't both games getting touched up right now?  I'd hate to start playing the original version only to have a better looking one come out right away.

arkarian

2015-06-22 03:23:22 pm

red chamber dream

afaik it's going to look exactly the same as the existing 360 version. might as well start now.

i very much do NOT recommend playing tooie first. that's a terrible idea.

kirbymastah

2015-06-22 03:50:29 pm

Quote from Da Dood:

Tooie is really awesome. I tend to prefer BK mainly because its areas are more compact and the Jiggies are super easy to collect. I think BK is paced just right between platforming and treasure hunting, while BT is a freaking *massive* adventure that I have to be in the right mood to play or else things can get a little overwhelming. But yeah, both games are equally brilliant IMO.

I mostly agree with you. As i mentioned, tooie is more exploration heavy while kazooie is more level/platforming heavy. In a sense, tooie is basically bigger and more complex than kazooie in every way possible, for better and worse. Thanks to this, it's sorta easier to pick up kazooie "on the go" than it is for tooie, since for tooie, it's more important to remember what you did last time.

I really really really recommend playing kazooie then tooie. While I played tooie first, I'm pretty sure I would've enjoyed the experience more (though I certainly loved it my first playthrough regardless) if i played kazooie first and understood all the jokes, along with already being familiar with the mechanics from kazooie.

[quote="Da Dood"]Tooie is really awesome. I tend to prefer BK mainly because its areas are more compact and the Jiggies are super easy to collect. I think BK is paced just right between platforming and treasure hunting, while BT is a freaking *massive* adventure that I have to be in the right mood to play or else things can get a little overwhelming. But yeah, both games are equally brilliant IMO.[/quote]

I mostly agree with you. As i mentioned, tooie is more exploration heavy while kazooie is more level/platforming heavy. In a sense, tooie is basically bigger and more complex than kazooie in every way possible, for better and worse. Thanks to this, it's sorta easier to pick up kazooie "on the go" than it is for tooie, since for tooie, it's more important to remember what you did last time.

I really really really recommend playing kazooie then tooie. While I played tooie first, I'm pretty sure I would've enjoyed the experience more (though I certainly loved it my first playthrough regardless) if i played kazooie first and understood all the jokes, along with already being familiar with the mechanics from kazooie.