Super Metroid - Reverse Boss Order / Suitless Cyborg Run

2005-12-15 12:31:50 pm

Yo, Ekarderif. Mr. Feng. "Fried Rake". Ben... don't go all "Sess" on us and disappear, leaving a run half-finished. You say you have no desire to finish it because nate has no respect for what you do. Well, are you doing the run for nate? For yourself? Or for the MZM/m2k2 community? There are many here (myself included) who would be quite disappointed if you quit the run, but only 1% as disappointed as if you left the forum over a pretty petty pissing match.
...
Take some time off if you need to, but a permanent departure would just be uncalled for. My 2 cents, for what they're worth. Now, take those 2 cents, find some spare change in your couch, and go buy a Snickers. They really satisfy. Wink

SABERinBLUE

2005-12-15 01:05:10 pm

Cook of the Sea

Man, you know I dig your stuff, but I just think it would royally suck for you to go. :/

Yoshi348

2005-12-15 01:09:43 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Ekard: It isn't so much that I've resolved my issues with Nate, so much as there's just too many damn friends I have on the forums here for me too leave them. Just clarifing my position, I don't think it really applies to you at all.

arkarian

2005-12-15 01:12:32 pm

red chamber dream

Later, Ekarderif. It's been fun.

spineshark

2005-12-15 01:22:37 pm

in the name of justice!

Quote from Yoshi348:

Just clarifing my position, I don't think it really applies to you at all.

Heh, I actually have to wonder if I'm taking that the wrong way...

I can't say any more than Monster already said...it would be quite an shame to have a 9% run that doesn't even have the special part.

also

Quote:

dj: because tv is just sponsored through
commercial advertising
dj: so you couldn't really say how much if any
financial benefit is coming to the tv network in question

it suddenly occured to me that i don't understand this part at all.

Kejardon

2005-12-15 05:07:42 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

transience: Both cyborg runs and normal runs use that skill. And like I said, that's often a community effort more than an individual effort.

It *really* bugs me when someone says a cyborg run takes as much skill as a human run. If that were true, people would just do human runs since it would be just as fast to accomplish the same thing like that. That's the whole point of doing a cyborg run: To remove the skill requirement to perform tricks.

transience

2005-12-15 05:11:15 pm

twenty eight fifty

i don't think the two can be measured together. they're completely separate in my mind.

ben, i don't care if you finish your 9% or not, but if you leave i'm going to walk to your house and kick your ass. i refuse to have a friend like you disappear.

Ryan Ferneau

2005-12-15 05:25:41 pm

Well, I don't know how to define "skill" exactly, but an emulator run can take longer to make than a normal run. It just depends on how hard you work to make the emulator run "perfect", or how much time you spend practicing/how many tries you waste on the normal run.

It seems like a lot of people here don't like how Nesvideos's movies are made because they focus on "time" rather than "tricks", but Bisqwit has a good point that judging a movie on "tricks" is very subjective. If you can define a million different "tricks" for the same game, then you could end up publishing a million different videos, and who wants to host all that when Nesvideos is open to so many games? So "time-based" runs are the standard, and "trick-based" runs are something special that need special approval.

And why is it that we should care about how fast we can do something playing normally, but not how fast we can do it playing "perfectly"? It seems a little silly to me... The "perfect" time is what really fascinates me.

Well, I don't know how to define "skill" exactly, but an emulator run can take [i]longer[/i] to make than a normal run.  It just depends on how hard you work to make the emulator run "perfect", or how much time you spend practicing/how many tries you waste on the normal run.

It seems like a lot of people here don't like how Nesvideos's movies are made because they focus on "time" rather than "tricks", but Bisqwit has a good point that judging a movie on "tricks" is very subjective.  If you can define a million different "tricks" for the same game, then you could end up publishing a million different videos, and who wants to host all that when Nesvideos is open to so many games?  So "time-based" runs are the standard, and "trick-based" runs are something special that need special approval.

And why is it that we should care about how fast we can do something playing normally, but not how fast we can do it playing "perfectly"?  It seems a little silly to me...  The "perfect" time is what really fascinates me.

MonsterERB

2005-12-15 05:36:32 pm

Quote from Ryan Ferneau:

And why is it that we should care about how fast we can do something playing normally, but not how fast we can do it playing "perfectly"? It seems a little silly to me... The "perfect" time is what really fascinates me.

It's a fundamental difference of opinion between different people who value different things. It's not likely to change. I started playing standup video games in the arcade back in 1980 when I was 8 years old. PacMan, Zaxxon, Galaga, etc. Got an Atari 2600 for Xmas in 1981. Eventually moved up to NES, SNES, N64, etc. The thing is, in the "old days", there was no such thing as computer-based emulation. The only way to play games was on the console. To be good at these games required lots of practice and very good reflexes/hand-eye coordination. The "old-school" gamer looks on computer-assisted emulated runs with distrust almost by default. It's practically hard-coded into their/our/my brain that the "gaming experience" means playing in real-time, with decisions and movements needing to be made very quickly.
...
I find the TAS-style videos to be very entertaining, but I prefer to watch runs done in real time. I don't want to see perfection as much as I want to see a difficult situation handled deftly and cleverly on the fly. Watching a TAS run, I pretty much know going in that every move will be flawless - I mean, after all, if it wasn't, it would just get re-recorded. So, the perfection in these runs is almost boring for me to watch. On the other hand, I love watching console runs, knowing that the runner is pulling off crazy-hard tricks in real time, knowing that the pressure to not screw up keeps mounting the further you get into a segment, etc.
...
It's all a matter of personal preference. This whole discussion just smacks of the "creamy peanut butter rules!" "no, crunchy peanut butter rules, you moron!" kind of discussions that have little hope of changing anyone's mind. :?

[quote="Ryan Ferneau"]And why is it that we should care about how fast we can do something playing normally, but not how fast we can do it playing "perfectly"?  It seems a little silly to me...  The "perfect" time is what really fascinates me.[/quote]
It's a fundamental difference of opinion between different people who value different things.  It's not likely to change.  I started playing standup video games in the arcade back in 1980 when I was 8 years old.  PacMan, Zaxxon, Galaga, etc.  Got an Atari 2600 for Xmas in 1981.  Eventually moved up to NES, SNES, N64, etc.  The thing is, in the "old days", there was no such thing as computer-based emulation.  The only way to play games was on the console.  To be good at these games required lots of practice and very good reflexes/hand-eye coordination.  The "old-school" gamer looks on computer-assisted emulated runs with distrust almost by default.  It's practically hard-coded into their/our/my brain that the "gaming experience" means playing in real-time, with decisions and movements needing to be made very quickly.
...
I find the TAS-style videos to be very entertaining, but I prefer to watch runs done in real time.  I don't want to see perfection as much as I want to see a difficult situation handled deftly and cleverly on the fly.  Watching a TAS run, I pretty much know going in that every move will be flawless - I mean, after all, if it wasn't, it would just get re-recorded.  So, the perfection in these runs is almost boring for me to watch.  On the other hand, I love watching console runs, knowing that the runner is pulling off crazy-hard tricks in real time, knowing that the pressure to not screw up keeps mounting the further you get into a segment, etc.
...
It's all a matter of personal preference.  This whole discussion just smacks of the "creamy peanut butter rules!" "no, crunchy peanut butter rules, you moron!" kind of discussions that have little hope of changing anyone's mind.  :?

Kejardon

2005-12-15 05:40:05 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

Quote from Ryan Ferneau:

an emulator run can take longer to make than a normal run.

All right then. Go make an cyborg run and a normal run. Make each one as best as you possibly can.
The time it takes to make a perfect cyborg run varies a lot depending on the game and complexity. Let's say it takes you 6 months.
The best possible normal run. Oh wait, this is never achieved, people are always trying to improve.
>_> While you can make a best possible cyborg run, you won't make a best possible normal run in a lifetime. You can set a specific target to reach, but I bet an cyborg run will still be able to reach that target long before the normal run does.

spineshark

2005-12-15 06:16:44 pm

in the name of justice!

Quote from Chanoire:

- Composing and performing music is an interesting parallel (referring to the discussion here, not the above) but I don't know if it works. The distinction between composition and performance is fuzzy here, as transience and Ark both seem to be talking about the process of producing a recording, but I get the drift that transience is also talking about composing the piece which is being produced, perhaps as part of the same process (as opposed to writing out sheet music and then performing it), while that is perhaps less the implication with live instruments, in which whole songs aren't typically created on the fly as part of the take. Then Spine Shark jumps in with the statement that the real skill (and only skill, apparently) is in composing.

Well, pretty clearly I took this a little too strongly, but honestly for me music performance is easy...but getting "perfection" takes a lot of time. My own attempts at composing have proven laughably weak, by contrast, either far too repetitive or incomprehensibly loose and random.

My two biggest skills, origami and music, are very similar in this way. I amaze most people with my natural skill at them...with minimal practice I am pretty good, though I lack the patience for "perfect" performance...and to close it all up, the creation side is something I view as wildly difficult and impressive.

I suppose I'm a little jaded, but I really do find it hard to express much awe at even the best performances I have attended...my best guess is that I have this little "well I could do that, obviously" voice in my head, while the (more) creative part is the opposite, a feeling of "I could never just come up with that." I suppose I should be glad though that now great composers who may not have much skill at performance have a better shot at getting their stuff out there, and perfecting it.

[quote="Chanoire"]- Composing and performing music is an interesting parallel (referring to the discussion here, not the above) but I don't know if it works.  The distinction between composition and performance is fuzzy here, as transience and Ark both seem to be talking about the process of producing a recording, but I get the drift that transience is also talking about composing the piece which is being produced, perhaps as part of the same process (as opposed to writing out sheet music and then performing it), while that is perhaps less the implication with live instruments, in which whole songs aren't typically created on the fly as part of the take.   Then Spine Shark jumps in with the statement that the real skill (and [i]only[/i] skill, apparently) is in composing.[/quote]Well, pretty clearly I took this a little too strongly, but honestly for me music performance is easy...but getting "perfection" takes a lot of time.  My own attempts at composing have proven laughably weak, by contrast, either far too repetitive or incomprehensibly loose and random.

My two biggest skills, origami and music, are very similar in this way.  I amaze most people with my natural skill at them...with minimal practice I am pretty good, though I lack the patience for "perfect" performance...and to close it all up, the creation side is something I view as wildly difficult and impressive.

I suppose I'm a little jaded, but I really do find it hard to express much awe at even the best performances I have attended...my best guess is that I have this little "well I could do that, obviously" voice in my head, while the (more) creative part is the opposite, a feeling of "I could never just come up with that."  I suppose I should be glad though that now great composers who may not have much skill at performance have a better shot at getting their stuff out there, and perfecting it.

Saturn

2005-12-15 06:21:01 pm

On topic:
Now I'm a bit confused. I just realized that geting up the so called Mt. Doom without Gravity will be very long because I need to freeze the crabs and wait many times till they unfreeze again. I want to avoid this at all costs.

Now I have a question (to Kejardon or whoever knows this):
Is it possible (at least theoretical) to get a temporary Blue Suit (right before crushing the glass-tube in maridia) and transport it somehow until the Mt. Doom room to shinespark up there even without Gravity Suit? This would be a great solution to this if it would only work. What do you think?

I'm not even at Ridley but it would be great to know about this for my further plannings.

Chanoire

2005-12-15 06:36:22 pm

Ryan: effort != skill. Not saying that the effort and hard work isn't there, but it's not the same as realtime abilities.

Spine Shark: I can still feel that awe of a good performer because I know I can't do that, but yes, after a while you just get used to it. I was on the selection committee for soloist auditions for a concert and at that point you're not thinking wow, that was amazing but is that person more competent than that one? I also played in readings and concerts of new music (composed by people in the department) and likewise I didn't always feel that impressed. My third-semester harmony class had to write woodwind quartets, and I was the flutist playing them all and I did get some of that "I wouldn't have come up with that" but of course I knew I could do it too because we also performed mine. A class situation is different, of course. But you're right, hearing music one is amazed by the composition first and the performance of it (including expressiveness) second. My point was mainly that if the performers sucked we may not be able to tell if the piece is any good...think of beginning violin recitals here. >_<

Ryan: effort != skill.  Not saying that the effort and hard work isn't there, but it's not the same as realtime abilities.

Spine Shark: I can still feel that awe of a good performer because I know I can't do that, but yes, after a while you just get used to it.  I was on the selection committee for soloist auditions for a concert and at that point you're not thinking wow, that was amazing but is that person more competent than that one?  I also played in readings and concerts of new music (composed by people in the department) and likewise I didn't always feel that impressed.  My third-semester harmony class had to write woodwind quartets, and I was the flutist playing them all  and I did get some of that "I wouldn't have come up with that" but of course I knew I could do it too because we also performed mine.  A class situation is different, of course.  But you're right, hearing music one is amazed by the composition first and the performance of it (including expressiveness) second.  My point was mainly that if the performers sucked we may not be able to tell if the piece is any good...think of beginning violin recitals here. >_<

BoltR

2005-12-15 07:06:36 pm

Simply copying the run was not my initial intent; it seems to have just ended up that way. I initially had planned on producing the run doing both the Kraid first and Ridley first sections of the run up to where the two paths converge, and then when I had discovered which was faster, finish the rest of the run. I decided to do the Ridley first section as it was the route which the people here at m2k2 had seemed to have decided faster, and seemed to have a solid route down for. I had planned to take what was available and seeing if I could find any additional route improvements; which as history shows didn’t happen. When I got to Tourian and it was time to start work on the Kraid first section of my run, I decided to just work to complete the run so it could be published. I cannot really remember the reason why; it might have been because I had spent a lot of time on the run and I wanted a break, a friendly competition with OgreSlayeR to get the first GBA run published, pressure from other people to get it done, or sheer laziness of not wanting to put off the run for a few more months while I spent all the time testing what was best for the Kraid first route. For whatever reason, it wasn’t the proper decision and now I can look back and see that. The run could have been a lot better than it was, for many reasons.
When viewing other people’s TAS/TAD/EmuRape/CyborgRun/whateveryoupersonallyliketocallthem I generally do not enjoy them as much if they a simple ‘improvement’ over a video which is hosted at SDA which uses the same route and tricks. I like seeing things I’ve never seen or thought of before. As I have said in the topic discussing Banjo Kazooie on the NESVideos forum, I do not believe that the idea of a TAS is to just redo a run on SDA with more precision to get a better time. In my mind that is not where the entertainment from the videos at the site come from. How I missed this in my own video I’m not sure, but I apologise if people thought it was my intent just to rip off the runs that players like ajbolt89, Dragondarch, and transcience have been putting together to try to show them up. I have been, and still am working on a run using a route of (mostly) my creation (with help from people who have been nice enough to help here and there), and hope that the people at this forum will be less revolted with it, and possibly even enjoy it. However, life has become busy and I don’t have the time I once had to be working on it, so I cannot even guess how much longer it is going to take to complete.

Ekar, please continue with your run, I enjoy all runs if they are played on or off an emulator, and your run makes a good connection with my thoughts of my own run. I very much enjoy reading your comments, and completely share your contempt for the hive room. That is probably the most evil room in the game. I spent hours trying to manipulate Samus through that room as fast as possible, without stopping to shoot, or to avoid the wasps. After all those hours I would finally get a run through which was “acceptable”, without driving myself completely insane, and then discover that I could improve an earlier room by a few frames and bounce my head off the desk realizing that I would need to do the hive room again. I even once got through the room PERFECTLY, no pauses to shoot, no pauses to wait for wasps, just constant forward movement. I then had to scrap that attempt too. All that being said, I’m sure I am not the only one who feels this way about your run. I’m sure there are many people who want you to continue with what you are doing, and I urge you to do so. Maybe not on m2k2 if you don’t want, but I’m sure you can find somewhere to get it hosted. I hear there is another Metroid site which has offered to host emulated Metroid movies. If it comes to it.

Simply copying the run was not my initial intent; it seems to have just ended up that way. I initially had planned on producing the run doing both the Kraid first and Ridley first sections of the run up to where the two paths converge, and then when I had discovered which was faster, finish the rest of the run. I decided to do the Ridley first section as it was the route which the people here at m2k2 had seemed to have decided faster, and seemed to have a solid route down for. I had planned to take what was available and seeing if I could find any additional route improvements; which as history shows didn’t happen. When I got to Tourian and it was time to start work on the Kraid first section of my run, I decided to just work to complete the run so it could be published. I cannot really remember the reason why; it might have been because I had spent a lot of time on the run and I wanted a break, a friendly competition with OgreSlayeR to get the first GBA run published, pressure from other people to get it done, or sheer laziness of not wanting to put off the run for a few more months while I spent all the time testing what was best for the Kraid first route. For whatever reason, it wasn’t the proper decision and now I can look back and see that. The run could have been a lot better than it was, for many reasons. 
When viewing other people’s TAS/TAD/EmuRape/CyborgRun/whateveryoupersonallyliketocallthem I generally do not enjoy them as much if they a simple ‘improvement’ over a video which is hosted at SDA which uses the same route and tricks. I like seeing things I’ve never seen or thought of before. As I have said in the topic discussing Banjo Kazooie on the NESVideos forum, I do not believe that the idea of a TAS is to just redo a run on SDA with more precision to get a better time. In my mind that is not where the entertainment from the videos at the site come from. How I missed this in my own video I’m not sure, but I apologise if people thought it was my intent just to rip off the runs that players like ajbolt89, Dragondarch, and transcience have been putting together to try to show them up. I have been, and still am working on a run using a route of (mostly) my creation (with help from people who have been nice enough to help here and there), and hope that the people at this forum will be less revolted with it, and possibly even enjoy it. However, life has become busy and I don’t have the time I once had to be working on it, so I cannot even guess how much longer it is going to take to complete.

Ekar, please continue with your run, I enjoy all runs if they are played on or off an emulator, and your run makes a good connection with my thoughts of my own run. I very much enjoy reading your comments, and completely share your contempt for the hive room. That is probably the most evil room in the game. I spent hours trying to manipulate Samus through that room as fast as possible, without stopping to shoot, or to avoid the wasps. After all those hours I would finally get a run through which was “acceptable”, without driving myself completely insane, and then discover that I could improve an earlier room by a few frames and bounce my head off the desk realizing that I would need to do the hive room again. I even once got through the room PERFECTLY, no pauses to shoot, no pauses to wait for wasps, just constant forward movement. I then had to scrap that attempt too. All that being said, I’m sure I am not the only one who feels this way about your run. I’m sure there are many people who want you to continue with what you are doing, and I urge you to do so. Maybe not on m2k2 if you don’t want, but I’m sure you can find somewhere to get it hosted. I hear there is another Metroid site which has offered to host emulated Metroid movies. If it comes to it.

Kejardon

2005-12-15 07:18:13 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

Yes, it's probably possible. The problem is, you'll probably still have to be waiting for crabs to move around the room to shoot down with super missiles, freeze in mid-air, then jump onto.

First off, you'd have to do the temporary blue suit and land in the tube room. Lay a power bomb and wait for it to explode, so the tube will crack when you move. Then jump up, open the door before you hit it(hard!), and go into the next room. If I remember right, you can pause and unpause the game to slow down a shark, then freeze it from above and land on it.
Hrm. I didn't think pausing the game would affect enemies, but I'm pretty sure I remember testing that with savestates. I should look into that. >_>
I don't know what path exactly you need to use, but there are crabs that walk even when offscreen, so I'm sure there's some way to freeze your way up. You can't spinjump or walljump either, so you have to be able to *land* on your next platform from each jump.

Ryan Ferneau

2005-12-15 07:54:51 pm

Quote from Kejardon:

Quote from Ryan Ferneau:

an emulator run can take longer to make than a normal run.

All right then. Go make an cyborg run and a normal run. Make each one as best as you possibly can.
The time it takes to make a perfect cyborg run varies a lot depending on the game and complexity. Let's say it takes you 6 months.
The best possible normal run. Oh wait, this is never achieved, people are always trying to improve.
>_> While you can make a best possible cyborg run, you won't make a best possible normal run in a lifetime. You can set a specific target to reach, but I bet an cyborg run will still be able to reach that target long before the normal run does.

That's why I said it depends. It depends on how good a job you want to do.

Quote from Chanoire:

effort != skill. Not saying that the effort and hard work isn't there, but it's not the same as realtime abilities.

Perhaps, but it takes effort to acquire a skill! And I don't see why it's necessarily dishonorable to not have a certain skill, just because some "hardkore oldskool gamerz" seem to think so.

[quote="Kejardon"][quote="Ryan Ferneau"]an emulator run can take [i]longer[/i] to make than a normal run.[/quote]

All right then. Go make an cyborg run and a normal run. Make each one as best as you possibly can.
The time it takes to make a perfect cyborg run varies a lot depending on the game and complexity. Let's say it takes you 6 months.
The best possible normal run. Oh wait, this is never achieved, people are always trying to improve.
>_> While you can make a best possible cyborg run, you won't make a best possible normal run in a lifetime. You can set a specific target to reach, but I bet an cyborg run will still be able to reach that target long before the normal run does.[/quote]

That's why I said it depends.  It depends on how good a job you want to do.

[quote="Chanoire"]effort != skill.  Not saying that the effort and hard work isn't there, but it's not the same as realtime abilities.[/quote]

Perhaps, but it takes effort to acquire a skill!  And I don't see why it's necessarily dishonorable to not have a certain skill, just because some "hardkore oldskool gamerz" seem to think so.

Kejardon

2005-12-15 08:51:58 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

You're assuming that you do a better job in a cyborg run. If you fairly compare the two, it's apparent that the cyborg runs require far less skill and time than normal runs.
It's like saying 'Spider silk is weak because I can break it with my bare hands. I can't break a sheet of steel with only my hands'. Any materials engineer will scoff at you.

Supuh

2005-12-15 09:09:21 pm

is it just me, or is it normal for all my media players to get an error while trying to load the video?

arkarian

2005-12-15 09:17:09 pm

red chamber dream

It's not just you; it's most likely because you don't have something you need in order to watch the vids.

Ryan Ferneau

2005-12-15 09:58:29 pm

Quote from Kejardon:

You're assuming that you do a better job in a cyborg run.

I never said that. I don't get how the analogy applies.

Kejardon

2005-12-15 10:15:48 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

So... you're saying that it might take longer using savestates and slowdown to accomplish something than it does to accomplish it *without* savestates and slowdown?

Brightstar

2005-12-15 10:16:37 pm

nm, posted it in the other thread.

Yoshi348

2005-12-15 10:16:57 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

I think he's talking production time, not time of result.

Kejardon

2005-12-15 10:24:40 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

I am too. Using savestates and slowdown, I can nab powerbomb #66 faster than if I try without.

Chanoire

2005-12-15 11:26:27 pm

Quote from Ryan Ferneau:

Perhaps, but it takes effort to acquire a skill! And I don't see why it's necessarily dishonorable to not have a certain skill, just because some "hardkore oldskool gamerz" seem to think so.

It isn't dishonorable to lack a certain skill, or I would have had to ceremonially shoot myself years ago. What is dishonorable -- too strong a word in this context, but it's yours and not mine -- is deceiving others into believing you have a skill you lack, taking credit for something you didn't really accomplish. I am not saying that this is what TASers set out to do or even encourage; as mentioned multiply there are disclaimers and descriptions all over. But that, subtracting the active intent of the cyborg, is the problem with computer-assisted runs looking like speedruns, that unintentional deception occurs, because someone who just gets tossed a link over IM or whatever and grabs a video without ever looking at the page they're downloading from has no reason to assume that if it walks like a duck, only faster, and quacks pretty much like a duck that it isn't a duck. Hypothetically, this person could then hear later about the world record run and watch it and say what the heck, that's way slower than that one I saw before. And chances are good that they won't realize the first one wasn't a duck, it was quackery. >_>

To reiterate, I am not in the least accusing anyone of trying to pass off their cyborg run as an unassisted, competitive one; I'm just going with the word Ryan used and expanding on it.

BoltR: thanks for joining in. It is good to have your perspective as well, as a complement to transience's.

[quote="Ryan Ferneau"]Perhaps, but it takes effort to acquire a skill!  And I don't see why it's necessarily dishonorable to not have a certain skill, just because some "hardkore oldskool gamerz" seem to think so.[/quote]
It isn't dishonorable to lack a certain skill, or I would have had to ceremonially shoot myself years ago.  What is dishonorable -- too strong a word in this context, but it's yours and not mine -- is deceiving others into believing you have a skill you lack, taking credit for something you didn't really accomplish.  I am not saying that this is what TASers set out to do or even encourage; as mentioned multiply there are disclaimers and descriptions all over.  But that, subtracting the active intent of the cyborg, is the problem with computer-assisted runs looking like speedruns, that unintentional deception occurs, because someone who just gets tossed a link over IM or whatever and grabs a video without ever looking at the page they're downloading from has no reason to assume that if it walks like a duck, only faster, and quacks pretty much like a duck that it isn't a duck.  Hypothetically, this person could then hear later about the world record run and watch it and say what the heck, that's way slower than that one I saw before.  And chances are good that they won't realize the first one wasn't a duck, it was quackery.  [size=9px]>_>[/size]

To reiterate, I am not in the least accusing anyone of trying to pass off their cyborg run as an unassisted, competitive one; I'm just going with the word Ryan used and expanding on it.

BoltR: thanks for joining in.  It is good to have your perspective as well, as a complement to transience's.