Super Metroid - Reverse Boss Order / Suitless Cyborg Run

2005-12-15 11:29:47 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Well, there is at least one case of IMO direct comparison there..not to throw a monkey wrench into the mix, but when a TAS's description flat out does compare to a regular vid..

transience

2005-12-15 11:49:17 pm

twenty eight fifty

heyy, it's boltr. we've lost 1 1/2 m2k2ers and gained two bisqwit-ers! next thing you know, i'll be making a TAS of pong, bisqwit will be working on his bomb jumping and nate will be re-recording m2k2's history.

Quote from boltr:

As I have said in the topic discussing Banjo Kazooie on the NESVideos forum, I do not believe that the idea of a TAS is to just redo a run on SDA with more precision to get a better time. In my mind that is not where the entertainment from the videos at the site come from. How I missed this in my own video I知 not sure, but I apologise if people thought it was my intent just to rip off the runs that players like ajbolt89, Dragondarch, and transcience have been putting together to try to show them up.

you're not ripping me or anyone else off - i didn't make the game, i didn't come up with half the tricks, i own no part of the game. the only thing someone could even call you on is the route, but that falls under the realm of public domain in my mind. if anyone calls you on that, they should call me as well since i copied the route room for room. (though my strategies for each room were generally different)

your run is indeed "take speed run and add precision", as you put it. my first post already spoke out against this, and i hope that you will think up some interesting new tactics for your second version. if there is, i will be sure to watch it. zero mission is a very well-programmed game, so bending/breaking it is difficult to do.

(note: i hope this doesn't come across as anger or jealousy - i have neither and would say the same regardless of the game.)

heyy, it's boltr. we've lost 1 1/2 m2k2ers and gained two bisqwit-ers! next thing you know, i'll be making a TAS of pong, bisqwit will be working on his bomb jumping and nate will be re-recording m2k2's history.

[quote="boltr"]As I have said in the topic discussing Banjo Kazooie on the NESVideos forum, I do not believe that the idea of a TAS is to just redo a run on SDA with more precision to get a better time. In my mind that is not where the entertainment from the videos at the site come from. How I missed this in my own video I知 not sure, but I apologise if people thought it was my intent just to rip off the runs that players like ajbolt89, Dragondarch, and transcience have been putting together to try to show them up.[/quote]

you're not ripping me or anyone else off - i didn't make the game, i didn't come up with half the tricks, i own no part of the game. the only thing someone could even call you on is the route, but that falls under the realm of public domain in my mind. if anyone calls you on that, they should call me as well since i copied the route room for room. (though my strategies for each room were generally different)

your run is indeed "take speed run and add precision", as you put it. my first post already spoke out against this, and i hope that you will think up some interesting new tactics for your second version. if there is, i will be sure to watch it. zero mission is a very well-programmed game, so bending/breaking it is difficult to do.

(note: i hope this doesn't come across as anger or jealousy - i have neither and would say the same regardless of the game.)

Ryan Ferneau

2005-12-16 02:03:11 am

Quote from Chanoire:

But that, subtracting the active intent of the cyborg, is the problem with computer-assisted runs looking like speedruns, that unintentional deception occurs, because someone who just gets tossed a link over IM or whatever and grabs a video without ever looking at the page they're downloading from has no reason to assume that if it walks like a duck, only faster, and quacks pretty much like a duck that it isn't a duck. Hypothetically, this person could then hear later about the world record run and watch it and say what the heck, that's way slower than that one I saw before. And chances are good that they won't realize the first one wasn't a duck, it was quackery.

Again, I don't see why we should care. It's not my problem if a bunch of moronic websurfers can't get their facts straight on what some video is or isn't. It doesn't take away from the accomplishment of getting the real world record in the real game; it just potentially takes away the viewership of a few idiots. But if people seriously like watching assisted runs over unassisted runs, well, that's their choice.

[quote="Chanoire"]But that, subtracting the active intent of the cyborg, is the problem with computer-assisted runs looking like speedruns, that unintentional deception occurs, because someone who just gets tossed a link over IM or whatever and grabs a video without ever looking at the page they're downloading from has no reason to assume that if it walks like a duck, only faster, and quacks pretty much like a duck that it isn't a duck.  Hypothetically, this person could then hear later about the world record run and watch it and say what the heck, that's way slower than that one I saw before.  And chances are good that they won't realize the first one wasn't a duck, it was quackery.[/quote]

Again, I don't see why we should care.  It's not my problem if a bunch of moronic websurfers can't get their facts straight on what some video is or isn't.  It doesn't take away from the accomplishment of getting the real world record in the real game; it just potentially takes away the viewership of a few idiots.  But if people seriously like watching assisted runs over unassisted runs, well, that's their choice.

Saturn

2005-12-16 07:37:14 am

Quote from Kejardon:

Yes, it's probably possible. The problem is, you'll probably still have to be waiting for crabs to move around the room to shoot down with super missiles, freeze in mid-air, then jump onto.

First off, you'd have to do the temporary blue suit and land in the tube room. Lay a power bomb and wait for it to explode, so the tube will crack when you move. Then jump up, open the door before you hit it(hard!), and go into the next room. If I remember right, you can pause and unpause the game to slow down a shark, then freeze it from above and land on it.
Hrm. I didn't think pausing the game would affect enemies, but I'm pretty sure I remember testing that with savestates. I should look into that. >_>
I don't know what path exactly you need to use, but there are crabs that walk even when offscreen, so I'm sure there's some way to freeze your way up. You can't spinjump or walljump either, so you have to be able to *land* on your next platform from each jump.

Thanks Kej, that gives me hope. I don't care about the vertical Maridia mainstreet room with the shinespark Missile and the Super since it has enough helping platforms to go up there relatively fast even with freezing some of the crabs. I think I will have to use the top right exit of this room and then if I can keep the Blue Suit just shinespark horizontal through the Mt. Doom room. The last problem I will have will be the big room with the savepoint right before Botwoon. Maybe I should climb up to the big room with the hidden Missile where you get above the water, get a temporary blue suit and then also shinespark the pre-botwoon room up. I will test it out.

Supuh:
You need the XviD codec in order to play this demo-video. Get it on http://www.free-codecs.com/download/Koepi_XviD.htm install it and you are in business.

[quote="Kejardon"]Yes, it's probably possible. The problem is, you'll probably still have to be waiting for crabs to move around the room to shoot down with super missiles, freeze in mid-air, then jump onto.

First off, you'd have to do the temporary blue suit and land in the tube room. Lay a power bomb and wait for it to explode, so the tube will crack when you move. Then jump up, open the door before you hit it(hard!), and go into the next room. If I remember right, you can pause and unpause the game to slow down a shark, then freeze it from above and land on it.
Hrm. I didn't think pausing the game would affect enemies, but I'm pretty sure I remember testing that with savestates. I should look into that. >_>
I don't know what path exactly you need to use, but there are crabs that walk even when offscreen, so I'm sure there's some way to freeze your way up. You can't spinjump or walljump either, so you have to be able to *land* on your next platform from each jump.[/quote]
Thanks Kej, that gives me hope. I don't care about the vertical Maridia mainstreet room with the shinespark Missile and the Super since it has enough helping platforms to go up there relatively fast even with freezing some of the crabs. I think I will have to use the top right exit of this room and then if I can keep the Blue Suit just shinespark horizontal through the Mt. Doom room. The last problem I will have will be the big room with the savepoint right before Botwoon. Maybe I should climb up to the big room with the hidden Missile where you get above the water, get a temporary blue suit and then also shinespark the pre-botwoon room up. I will test it out.

Supuh:
You need the XviD codec in order to play this demo-video. Get it on http://www.free-codecs.com/download/Koepi_XviD.htm install it and you are in business.

arkarian

2005-12-16 08:01:01 am

red chamber dream

Quote from Ryan Ferneau:

It's not my problem if a bunch of moronic websurfers can't get their facts straight on what some video is or isn't. [...] it just potentially takes away the viewership of a few idiots.

You will not insult people like that. Stop.

Zeke

2005-12-16 09:18:17 am

Time bomb set get out fast!

It's true, isn't it? You guys save all the interesting stuff for when I'm away. It's just a shame this particular "interesting" has so much stupid mixed in. Saber and Bisqwit stand as proof that useful, intelligent discussions are possible between us and the TAS crowd -- but others have been doing their best to show how far we have to go.

I have great respect for Nate, and I think anyone who did before this thread still should now, whatever your stand on quarking. We all have our hot buttons; this is his. The worst thing we can do as a community is let an argument with another forum damage our own relationships. Ekarderif, I truly hope you'll reconsider -- your ZM run has been the best thing to come along at m2k2 in ages. If Nate had "no respect for what [you] do," would he really be promoting your run and using his bandwidth to make it available?

As for the main debate, I think the situation as it stands is fair, or at least as fair as we can make it. Bisqwit and co. are making sure their videos are clearly identified, which is all it takes to do right by us -- even though we have no actual authority to demand they do it. Why should we make an issue of what they call themselves? "Tool-assisted" isn't perfect, but it serves; if they're content with it, what do we care?

Finally, I'm sure I'm not the only one tempted to go on about how little any of this matters in the grand scheme -- but that would be a mistake. It matters to us. If we're going to spend time on this stuff, why shouldn't we be passionate about it?

It's true, isn't it?  You guys save [i]all[/i] the interesting stuff for when I'm away.  It's just a shame this particular "interesting" has so much stupid mixed in.  Saber and Bisqwit stand as proof that useful, intelligent discussions are possible between us and the TAS crowd -- but others have been doing their best to show how far we have to go.

I have great respect for Nate, and I think anyone who did before this thread still should now, whatever your stand on quarking.  We all have our hot buttons; this is his.  The worst thing we can do as a community is let an argument with another forum damage our own relationships.  Ekarderif, I truly hope you'll reconsider -- your ZM run has been the best thing to come along at m2k2 in ages.  If Nate had "no respect for what [you] do," would he really be promoting your run and using his bandwidth to make it available?

As for the main debate, I think the situation as it stands is fair, or at least as fair as we can make it.  Bisqwit and co. are making sure their videos are clearly identified, which is all it takes to do right by us -- even though we have no actual authority to demand they do it.  Why should we make an issue of what they call themselves?  "Tool-assisted" isn't perfect, but it serves; if they're content with it, what do we care?

Finally, I'm sure I'm not the only one tempted to go on about how little any of this matters in the grand scheme -- but that would be a mistake.  It matters to [i]us[/i].  If we're going to spend time on this stuff, why shouldn't we be passionate about it?

Ryan Ferneau

2005-12-16 10:51:01 am

Quote from Arkarian:

You will not insult people like that. Stop.

Yes I will! Ha ha!

StarmanHaxor

2005-12-16 11:58:23 am

Quote from Ryan Ferneau:

Quote from Arkarian:

You will not insult people like that. Stop.

Yes I will! Ha ha!

Stop being childish. This whole topic is crap, crap and more crap. (Save the original basis of the topic)

This has become nothing more than people fighting.

We shouldnt let this drag them down to their level.

Yoshi348

2005-12-16 11:58:33 am

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

...Not the right attitude to be talking with a mod.

But I will say that I have no clue why he yelled at you for that, seeing as how I'm pretty sure you were insulting Joe Idiot there, rather than any of us.

EDIT: DAMN YOU SIMUPOSTS!!!! RARG!

spineshark

2005-12-16 12:28:07 pm

in the name of justice!

Quote from Zeke:

As for the main debate, I think the situation as it stands is fair, or at least as fair as we can make it. Bisqwit and co. are making sure their videos are clearly identified, which is all it takes to do right by us -- even though we have no actual authority to demand they do it. Why should we make an issue of what they call themselves? "Tool-assisted" isn't perfect, but it serves; if they're content with it, what do we care?

I was thinking about this last night, because where would we be if all of the "TASers" were out on their own, posting movies on their own websites, with less explanation of what's going on?

Nobody in IRC cared. But they were willing to help with my essay :P which I really appreciate.

Chanoire

2005-12-16 02:25:38 pm

This will seem totally unconnected with anything current, since at the time I thought of it I couldn't get back to the boards until the thread had moved on. But I just wanted to point out that there's a cyborg/emu-abused/rerecorded example on the main m2k2 site itself, without identification as such: the TRO trap. Sess said in the thread about it some time later that he used savestates for it, taking one during the spark (which is why the second movie starts in the middle of it) and then just hitting the buttons to shoot and then walljump immediately after over and over until they occurred just right. He may not have used slowdown, but it's certainly rerecording, and it wasn't until someone else said he was having trouble pulling it off and asked how Sess did it that this was explained. The movie description doesn't say anything about this.

As a side note, I could have sworn I'd seen 0% on that page before but I'm not finding it now. Was I just imagining it was there, or am I blind now?

And yes, I was a little surprised at Ark's post too, since I started calling the same group collectively Joe Idiot myself. Although I don't wish to equate ignorance with idiocy.

This will seem totally unconnected with anything current, since at the time I thought of it I couldn't get back to the boards until the thread had moved on.  But I just wanted to point out that there's a cyborg/emu-abused/rerecorded example on the main m2k2 site itself, without identification as such: the TRO trap.  Sess said in the thread about it some time later that he used savestates for it, taking one during the spark (which is why the second movie starts in the middle of it) and then just hitting the buttons to shoot and then walljump immediately after over and over until they occurred just right.  He may not have used slowdown, but it's certainly rerecording, and it wasn't until someone else said he was having trouble pulling it off and asked how Sess did it that this was explained.  The movie description doesn't say anything about this.

As a side note, I could have sworn I'd seen 0% on that page before but I'm not finding it now.  Was I just imagining it was there, or am I blind now?

And yes, I was a little surprised at Ark's post too, since I started calling the same group collectively Joe Idiot myself.  Although I don't wish to equate ignorance with idiocy.

Saturn

2005-12-16 03:20:22 pm

Another question to the run:
Is it possible to get a blue suit by killing Botwoon with the Ice Shield while Crystal Flashing just like Draygon? Then I could shinespark through the large room before Dragon to save alot of time again.

Also there is no way to keep the temporary blue suit till the top of the mainstreet room without X-Ray scope, right? If so then maybe the normal way to climb up Mt. Doom by freezing the crabs is still faster (like Scarlet did in her NBMB).

Purple Lizard

2005-12-16 03:35:53 pm

I thought the reason you could get blue suit in the draygon fight was because of the special way the code handles resetting samus during his death sequence, which is why it doesn't work on any other boss. Could be wrong though.

Kejardon

2005-12-16 03:37:51 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

The crystal flash + shield kill only gives you a superjump against Draygon because Draygon sets Samus's position to standing at the end of the battle, because Samus can kill Draygon while in unique positions (grapple kill). So no, you can't get a blue suit or a superjump from Botwoon.

"Also there is no way to keep the temporary blue suit till the top of the mainstreet room without X-Ray scope, right?"
Correct. X-ray is required to turn around with the temporary blue suit.

Face it. No gravity suit in Maridia is slloooooow. :P

Edit: This topic is a magnet to simuposts. >_>

Maur

2005-12-16 03:44:36 pm

Could he possibly do the 1-wall underwater wall jumps, since he's using slowmo anyways?

Saturn

2005-12-16 03:48:52 pm

I see, this will indeed be pretty slow then at least compared to the current demo :-). Last hope is if can manage a short charge and shinespark to X-Ray and back then maybe its still worth to take it. Thanks for the clarification.

Maur:
Yes its possible but only on a straight wall and very very slow. Mt. Doom won't allow me that though.

nate

2005-12-16 03:54:42 pm

just making sure nobody misses the new poll.

Maur

2005-12-16 03:59:16 pm

Yeah, but you could use it to get out of draygon's room... wait, I forget, does that shaft just before draygon you have to SJ up narrow at the top? I think it does.

Sigh.

Saturn

2005-12-16 04:18:29 pm

No, it indeed works! Just tested it. Again an idea I haven't realized to test before. Very helpful Maur. Now I can save the spark for the big room which is more than great.

Kejardon

2005-12-16 04:33:47 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

You can one-wall walljump past the corner ledge in that room?
I never managed to confirm if that was possible or not. It'd be nice to know for sure, even if it's harder than PB #66. Did you do this on NTSC or PAL?

Saturn

2005-12-16 04:48:57 pm

Hmmm, I underestimated the narrowing block at the top. I got up to the semi top platform but now it seems indeed impossible to get up the final block. I have the feeling that it would work if I would be 1 or 2 pixels higher, but if I do so I bounce down with the head of the other block. Seems to be impossible then :-(

I use the NTSC version.

Maur

2005-12-16 06:32:59 pm

Heh. It was worth a shot, anyways.

13M13

2005-12-17 12:41:04 am

l'appel du vide

You all are making a mountain out of a grain of sand. If it so happens that the majority of the gaming world finds assisted/unassisted runs more enjoyable, unassisted/assisted runners need to just suck it up. You can't do anything about it.

And I don't understand why it's so hard for the some people to use the term, 'tool-assisted'. Why do you so adamantly refuse to refer to the runs using the term the creators use? ...emu-rape? Aren't you big and bad...feel any better? The fact that it's used with disdain and from a condescending point of view doesn't make any sense. 'Tool-assisted' is not an enormously ambigious term. You are using a tool (an emulator) to assist you in playing the game to the best of your ability. You can't make it much simpler than that. I think 'emulator-assisted' would be the only other viable option, and someone will still find a way to complain about that. In my opinion, it is the unassisted runners who are doing the majority of the taunting. Get over it and move on.

You can't combat ignorance and change the fact that some people will neglect to understand how a run was created (whether assisted or unassisted). Stop dealing in the hypothetical and just enjoy yourselves.

---

Now, with that out of the way, I'm rather interested in seeing what Saturn does with this run.

You all are making a mountain out of a grain of sand.  If it so happens that the majority of the gaming world finds assisted/unassisted runs more enjoyable, unassisted/assisted runners need to just suck it up.  You can't do anything about it.

And I don't understand why it's so hard for the some people to use the term, 'tool-assisted'.  Why do you so adamantly refuse to refer to the runs using the term the creators use?  ...emu-rape?  Aren't you big and bad...feel any better?  The fact that it's used with disdain and from a condescending point of view doesn't make any sense.  'Tool-assisted' is not an enormously ambigious term.  You are using a tool (an emulator) to assist you in playing the game to the best of your ability.  You can't make it much simpler than that.  I think 'emulator-assisted' would be the only other viable option, and someone will still find a way to complain about that.  In my opinion, it is the unassisted runners who are doing the majority of the taunting.  Get over it and move on.

You can't combat ignorance and change the fact that some people will neglect to understand how a run was created (whether assisted or unassisted).  Stop dealing in the hypothetical and just [i][b]enjoy yourselves[/b][/i].

---

Now, with that out of the way, I'm rather interested in seeing what Saturn does with this run.

SABERinBLUE

2005-12-17 01:14:27 am

Cook of the Sea

Quote from 13M13:

Get over it and move on.

We are. Nate has said that the term "emu rape" will no longer be used on m2k2.

13M13

2005-12-17 01:45:05 am

l'appel du vide

Splendid. I must've missed that post.