Super Metroid - Reverse Boss Order / Suitless Cyborg Run

2005-12-12 04:48:55 am

Why wasn't Ekard's Emu-Rape met with the same criticism? It's basically the same thing.

2005-12-12 06:28:33 am

Quote from LifeMega:

Quote from Chanoire:

Actually, if it's only about doing the bosses in reverse order and not the minibosses, Crocomire could presumably be done early and therefore the power bombs to the left of his room could be gotten, undoubtedly helping in the crystal flash department. Not to mention the e-tank in his room.

Quote from Saturn:

For that I decided to skip all Mini Bosses (except Botwoon who is unskipable)

I assume he will also kill the Torizo, who is also unskipable.

1) In my first post in this thread I commented that presumably the Bomb Torizo doesn't count since, yes, you can't get very far without bombs. A strict NBMB would be very short. (Although that reminds me that no one ever answered my question about whether it's acceptable for a NBMB to end somewhere other than a save point, such as in the Golden Torizo's room, in which you can get a super missile tank before actually fighting.)

2) The post of mine which you quoted was addressed to Scarlet regarding a console run, not Saturn's current project.

[quote="LifeMega"][quote="Chanoire"]Actually, if it's only about doing the bosses in reverse order and not the minibosses, Crocomire could presumably be done early and therefore the power bombs to the left of his room could be gotten, undoubtedly helping in the crystal flash department.  Not to mention the e-tank in his room.[/quote]
[quote="Saturn"]For that I decided to skip all Mini Bosses (except Botwoon who is unskipable)[/quote]
I assume he will also kill the Torizo, who is also unskipable.[/quote]
1) In my first post in this thread I commented that presumably the Bomb Torizo doesn't count since, yes, you can't get very far without bombs.  A strict NBMB would be very short. (Although that reminds me that no one ever answered my question about whether it's acceptable for a NBMB to end somewhere other than a save point, such as in the Golden Torizo's room, in which you can get a super missile tank before actually fighting.)

2) The post of mine which you quoted was addressed to Scarlet regarding a console run, not Saturn's current project.

Ekarderif

2005-12-12 08:43:30 am

Quote from LifeMega:

Why wasn't Ekard's Emu-Rape met with the same criticism? It's basically the same thing.

A) I use states, not abuse them.
B) All my tricks are performed in real time.
C) I'm not trying to go fast. Most of the new stuff I pull are slower than what you'd expect.
D) I'm not perfect. Watch the ZM rape at Bisqwit and you'll notice a huge difference.
E) I save a lot (not states... stations).
F) People love me? (not likely)
G) Bob says no.

spineshark

2005-12-12 10:09:27 am

in the name of justice!

Don't forget
H) Nobody is retarded enough to actually do 9% hard on GBA.

Except that one day, when I was being stupid and kept saying "normal" instead of "hard" on IRC.

Wait...people HAVE done reverse boss (not-speed) runs on console, right?

SABERinBLUE

2005-12-12 11:11:51 am

Cook of the Sea

Quote from Daniel, Lord Bahamut:

Yoshi, nate, why are you guys so closed-minded about TAS runs? I'm not understanding the out-and-out hostility you guys express when anyone ever brings up the subject. The only thing I can see it might have stemmed from is the old Scarlet thread where she denounces further speed running in light of the "Jecy" emulated run. I found this place before finding the bisqwit site, and I didn't develop the same attitude. Emulated runs are pretty fun to watch, especially with games like Sonic and Mario, and that's why they're produced, for entertainment value.

Perhaps that's part of the reason. When such runs are produced solely for entertainment value, picture this from the Breakers' perspective. They breaking something through analog methods or shatter a preexisting speed record, and then a rape comes along and says "hey guys watch this" and regardless of what the actual person who recorded the rape feels about the difference between a raped run and an analog run, the average person will not understand the distinction. Most people I talked to about the "Super Mario Bros 3 Time Attack" on Ebaum's World either had no idea it was a rape or were in the realm of "dude I heard that was faked..." Even though it's not about the glory (dear God no) when a million people think that you suck because someone else did it better, when in fact someone else only did something else that happens to look like what you did and did it a whole lot better than yours, this kind of sucks. This is why I am so adamant about people being clear on what everything is.

Quote:

I lurk on the forums over at bisqwit and I gotta say, the dedication those guys have to their work easily rivals the speed runners we have here. They slave over segments with the same fervor one might when doing 22% Geo. If a trick can save a second or two, or in some cases as little as a couple frames, it's worth doing over again until the desired result is achieved. Your view that it's soulless or not worth the time is biased, and I for one don't approve of it.

Well it's clearly worth space on this site in not one but two games.

Quote:

However, this is your message board and website, nate, so you're free to have whatever viewpoint you want. And if you want to give me probation or ban me for expressing my views, go right ahead. I stand by my statements.

And like Chanoire said, that's an insult not only to nate but to this entire community. Moving on, however:

My views on this are fairly clear to most people here; I consider emulation rape to be a form of cybernetics. I have a webcomic about cybernetics so this gives me material and inspiration. Had I incorporated this idea more into my thought process back when we on m2k2 were trying to come up with a name for "Emulation Rape" that didn't involve the word "Rape" but also sounded more obvious (the attempt failed because no one could think of anything (lol "quark", <3 Zeke for continuing to use it)), I would have suggested "Cyborg Run", and I imagine that might have stuck.

[quote="Daniel, Lord Bahamut"]Yoshi, nate, why are you guys so closed-minded about TAS runs? I'm not understanding the out-and-out hostility you guys express when anyone ever brings up the subject. The only thing I can see it might have stemmed from is the old Scarlet thread where she denounces further speed running in light of the "Jecy" emulated run. I found this place before finding the bisqwit site, and I didn't develop the same attitude. Emulated runs are pretty fun to watch, especially with games like Sonic and Mario, and that's why they're produced, [b]for entertainment value.[/b][/quote]

Perhaps that's part of the reason.  When such runs are produced solely for entertainment value, picture this from the Breakers' perspective.  They breaking something through analog methods or shatter a preexisting speed record, and then a rape comes along and says "hey guys watch this" and [i]regardless[/i] of what the actual person who recorded the rape feels about the difference between a raped run and an analog run, [i]the average person[/i] will not understand the distinction.  Most people I talked to about the "Super Mario Bros 3 Time Attack" on Ebaum's World either had no idea it was a rape or were in the realm of "dude I heard that was faked..."  Even though it's not about the glory (dear God no) when a million people think that you suck because someone else did it better, when in fact someone else only did something else that happens to [i]look[/i] like what you did and did it a whole lot better than yours, this kind of sucks.  This is why I am so adamant about people being clear on [i]what everything is[/i].

[quote]I lurk on the forums over at bisqwit and I gotta say, the dedication those guys have to their work easily rivals the speed runners we have here. They slave over segments with the same fervor one might when doing 22% Geo. If a trick can save a second or two, or in some cases as little as a couple frames, it's worth doing over again until the desired result is achieved. Your view that it's soulless or not worth the time is biased, and I for one don't approve of it. [/quote]

Well it's clearly worth space on this site in not one but two games.

[quote]However, this is your message board and website, nate, so you're free to have whatever viewpoint you want. And if you want to give me probation or ban me for expressing my views, go right ahead. I stand by my statements.[/quote]

And like Chanoire said, that's an insult not only to nate but to this entire community.  Moving on, however:

My views on this are fairly clear to most people here; I consider emulation rape to be a form of cybernetics.  I have a webcomic about cybernetics so this gives me material and inspiration.  Had I incorporated this idea more into my thought process back when we on m2k2 were trying to come up with a name for "Emulation Rape" that didn't involve the word "Rape" but also sounded more obvious (the attempt failed because no one could think of anything (lol "quark", <3 Zeke for continuing to use it)), I would have suggested "Cyborg Run", and I imagine that might have stuck.

Chanoire

2005-12-12 12:57:32 pm

Quote from Spine Shark:

Wait...people HAVE done reverse boss (not-speed) runs on console, right?

Yes. No, I don't remember who, though presumably Kejardon has.

Purple Lizard

2005-12-12 01:21:53 pm

I'm pretty sure one or two of the gamefaqs regulars have claimed to have done so.

Ekarderif

2005-12-12 01:29:04 pm

Quote from Spine Shark:

H) Nobody is retarded enough to actually do 9% hard on GBA.

AJ already has. He hasn't recorded though :(.

Red Scarlet

2005-12-12 02:01:56 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

It seems to work now, but last night it just said 'cant find rapidshare.de' when I clicked on it.

After watching the teaser, a console one would only be filling a 'quota'.

Kejardon

2005-12-12 02:02:43 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

I'm more comfortable on keyboard than on gamepad, so I tend to do the difficult runs on emulator. That said, I don't abuse savestates or slowdown, though I have a strong habit of fast-forwarding past doors.
Still, I've never done a reverse boss run. I've killed Draygon first and escaped before, but I've never gone and killed Ridley first. I've gotten 66% with NBMB and stopped before the walljump to Lower Norfair was discovered, so I guess that's my current record for that.

And some comments about tool-assisted runs. Please keep in mind that this is all my opinion - if you don't agree, that's you're right.
I've done some tool-assisted runs, and several normal runs. The goal of both of them is the exact same, but the tool-assisted runs are far closer to the goal. For a tool-assisted run, it's humanly possible to get a perfect time, but in a normal run, it's basically a never-ending challenge to the speedrunners.
Speedrunners require tons of skill and time to get a world record, but just because they've got the world record doesn't mean they're done. There's always pressure on them to do it again, but better. TAS runners require knowledge and time, and in a finite time they've got a perfect run and they're done (assuming they know what the best route is). The only time when there's pressure on them to improve is if some new knowledge came up, providing a better route.
Speedrunners focus on improving skills in hopes of an improved run, and so a record run is a measurement of their skill, which always has room to improve. TAS runners just take knowledge and make a perfect or near-perfect run. When people see what's possible and then see a world record, even if they *know* that the TAS run shows off humanly impossible stunts, the world record still tends to look less impressive, and thus the speedrunners' skills look less impressive.

IMO, tool-assisted runs should work to show off *knowledge*. They're way too focused on speed and making records, and I don't see any point in that when they aren't legit records.

I'm more comfortable on keyboard than on gamepad, so I tend to do the difficult runs on emulator. That said, I don't abuse savestates or slowdown, though I have a strong habit of fast-forwarding past doors.
Still, I've never done a reverse boss run. I've killed Draygon first and escaped before, but I've never gone and killed Ridley first. I've gotten 66% with NBMB and stopped before the walljump to Lower Norfair was discovered, so I guess that's my current record for that.

And some comments about tool-assisted runs. Please keep in mind that this is all my opinion - if you don't agree, that's you're right.
I've done some tool-assisted runs, and several normal runs. The goal of both of them is the exact same, but the tool-assisted runs are far closer to the goal. For a tool-assisted run, it's humanly possible to get a perfect time, but in a normal run, it's basically a never-ending challenge to the speedrunners.
Speedrunners require tons of skill and time to get a world record, but just because they've got the world record doesn't mean they're done. There's always pressure on them to do it again, but better. TAS runners require knowledge and time, and in a finite time they've got a perfect run and they're done (assuming they know what the best route is). The only time when there's pressure on them to improve is if some new knowledge came up, providing a better route.
Speedrunners focus on improving skills in hopes of an improved run, and so a record run is a measurement of their skill, which always has room to improve. TAS runners just take knowledge and make a perfect or near-perfect run. When people see what's possible and then see a world record, even if they *know* that the TAS run shows off humanly impossible stunts, the world record still tends to look less impressive, and thus the speedrunners' skills look less impressive.

IMO, tool-assisted runs should work to show off *knowledge*. They're way too focused on speed and making records, and I don't see any point in that when they aren't legit records.

nate

2005-12-12 02:34:10 pm

first of all, sorry about the length ... but this is a complex situation, and if you wish to understand my position on it, you will read my entire post.

Quote from Daniel, Lord Bahamut:

Yoshi, nate, why are you guys so closed-minded about TAS runs?

think yoshi got kind of bandwagoned after an ambiguous post of his earlier: he's not nearly as militant/loyal to people here as i am afaik. i mean, he's never even done a published speed run, so how should he be expected to know how it feels?

Quote from Daniel, Lord Bahamut:

However, this is your message board and website, nate, so you're free to have whatever viewpoint you want. And if you want to give me probation or ban me for expressing my views, go right ahead. I stand by my statements.

didn't find this insulting like some others did, but i was amusedly able to see how it could be insulting.

i think that if you think this, then you don't know me very well (which is, of course, not a crime, but could be important if you want to predict my actions). if you read the history blocks (1, 2), you will see that how i feel about m2k2 is as complex as the site's history. sometimes i feel as though this is not only not my message board, but not my website as well, rather a representation or manifestation of something that a community of people working together created -- a community in which i have membership only by default, more as a result of sticking with them for so long rather than out of having produced anything useful to them. as such, i am the one whose opinion matters least, and i should defer all questions to the people who really run the show here in sequence breaking and speed running.

i feel as though i should expound further on what i feel my role in this community really is. in order to do this, i would like to use an example, the first sequence break, the triple bomb jump up the furnace spider ball track: it was only performed by banks after being predicted by kip and acquiring information about the bomb counter from akiraz. in that situation, there were three productive/valuable people, and no administrator as i am apparently seen by you people. clearly, sequence breaking did not require human overhead, and so i was strongly opposed to the idea of an administrator coming in who doesn't actually do anything with the games, and instead spends their time telling other people how to do things they are already doing just fine.

but then they tried to build websites, and they had runs that needed hosting ... and i finally decided that the only crime higher than filling an evil role of questionable necessity was to turn my back on them and refuse to furnish them with the resources i had available to me. if they had already given in to the dark side and chosen an administrator, surely it would not be wrong of me to be the best administrator they could have.

but i still feel extremely uncomfortable telling someone what is right and what is wrong, what is possible and what is not possible, how they should be going about things, etc. the only time when i have really felt as though i could take a firm position on something has been the "should emu rape be eradicated" argument. emu rapes hurt my friends and this community, so i decided that it would be alright if i sided against them (and with my friends). surely if everyone in my community thinks that rape is wrong, then it's not counterproductive of me to agree with them. indeed, if i were to side with the rapes (which i hardly see any value in), shouldn't my community start looking for a new leader, one who actually shared their views?

but this logic is flawed, and it's flawed due to a subtle, yet vitally important twist in the plot: when tim started mhq, he started it as an all-encompassing metroid fan site, and the sequence breakers (of whom my community consisted at that time) were his staff. following from this wider focus, he decided to make forums like "the boardwalk" and "the arts" for things not only outside of the realm of metroid prime sequence breaking, but outside of the realm of metroid entirely. thus, metroid 2002 with the mhq forum attached to it in november of 2003 was a very strange sight indeed; i kept hearing "be careful what you wish for" in my head.

so now i have to decide if i can conscientiously exterminate elements i deem unpleasant to my community the way i could if this were the "metroid prime sequence breaking forum". and i really can't, you know, i can't bring myself to disappoint people who actually seem to like this forum for the non-metroid prime sequence breaking-related stuff. clearly at least one person (the person to whose post i am replying) thinks that this emu rape element is not only welcome here, he is willing to tell me to my face that he would rather be banned than say otherwise.

okay, so, i'm supposedly the problem solver; what's the solution?

saber seems to think that we need a new name for this stuff, something that will be attached to it wherever it goes, so that people will know what to expect when they see it. as humans, language can be a useful tool for us. but i think that this idea might be dead on arrival, and let me tell you why.

unless i'm mistaken, the current nomenclature on the emu rape side, "tool-assisted run", originated from the emu rape side, and the current nomenclature on the "contingent" (my community) side, emu rape, originated here, or close enough to here for our purposes. the contingent objects to "tool-assisted" out of clarity's sake - it has been shown time after time that newbs will not understand what the tools or the assistance is unless it is explained to them. failure.

and "emu rape" is pretty offensive, but that is the purpose of the contingent, to place an offensive name on what is offensive to us. however, unless it is to follow the example of "gay" or "nigger" and be "reclaimed" by the ostracized community it refers to, "emu rape" will probably not do saber's job for us.

the trouble in my mind is that this is hardly the first time this has been brought up. saber's suggestion seems quite cute and apt to me, but are rapists really going to change all of their nametags from "tool" to "cyborg", especially given that saber often seems to be a member of the contingent? in my experience, they (the rapists) do things when they want to for their own self-serving reasons, much as we do.

with no workable compromise on the horizon, i have to continue to protect my people and their property, and i will do everything in my power to discredit and destroy emu rape when it is not properly labeled as such. just as in real life, no one gets arrested for talking about taboo subjects, but they do make life difficult for themselves and everyone around them when they do.

do not expect this situation to change in the near future.

first of all, sorry about the length ... but this is a complex situation, and if you wish to understand my position on it, you will read my entire post.

[quote="Daniel, Lord Bahamut"]Yoshi, nate, why are you guys so closed-minded about TAS runs?[/quote]
think yoshi got kind of bandwagoned after an ambiguous post of his earlier: he's not nearly as militant/loyal to people here as i am afaik. i mean, he's never even done a published speed run, so how should he be expected to know how it feels?

[quote="Daniel, Lord Bahamut"]However, this is your message board and website, nate, so you're free to have whatever viewpoint you want. And if you want to give me probation or ban me for expressing my views, go right ahead. I stand by my statements.[/quote]
didn't find this insulting like some others did, but i was amusedly able to see how it could be insulting.

i think that if you think this, then you don't know me very well (which is, of course, not a crime, but could be important if you want to predict my actions). if you read the history blocks ([url=http://www.metroid2002.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3394]1[/url], [url=http://www.metroid2002.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4151]2[/url]), you will see that how i feel about m2k2 is as complex as the site's history. sometimes i feel as though this is not only not my message board, but not my website as well, rather a representation or manifestation of something that a community of people working together created -- a community in which i have membership only by default, more as a result of sticking with them for so long rather than out of having produced anything useful to them. as such, i am the one whose opinion matters least, and i should defer all questions to the people who really run the show here in sequence breaking and speed running.

i feel as though i should expound further on what i feel my role in this community really is. in order to do this, i would like to use an example, the first sequence break, the triple bomb jump up the furnace spider ball track: it was only performed by banks after being predicted by kip and acquiring information about the bomb counter from akiraz. in that situation, there were three productive/valuable people, and no administrator as i am apparently seen by you people. clearly, sequence breaking did not require human overhead, and so i was strongly opposed to the idea of an administrator coming in who doesn't actually do anything with the games, and instead spends their time telling other people how to do things they are already doing just fine.

but then they tried to build websites, and they had runs that needed hosting ... and i finally decided that the only crime higher than filling an evil role of questionable necessity was to turn my back on them and refuse to furnish them with the resources i had available to me. if they had already given in to the dark side and chosen an administrator, surely it would not be wrong of me to be the best administrator they could have.

but i still [url=http://www.metroid2002.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=321]feel extremely uncomfortable[/url] telling someone what is right and what is wrong, what is possible and what is not possible, how they should be going about things, etc. the only time when i have really felt as though i could take a firm position on something has been the "should emu rape be eradicated" argument. [url=http://www.metroid2002.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1084]emu rapes hurt my friends and this community[/url], so i decided that it would be alright if i sided against them (and with my friends). surely if everyone in my community thinks that rape is wrong, then it's not counterproductive of me to agree with them. indeed, if i were to side with the rapes (which i hardly see any value in), shouldn't my community start looking for a new leader, one who actually shared their views?

but this logic is flawed, and it's flawed due to a subtle, yet vitally important twist in the plot: when tim started mhq, he started it as an all-encompassing metroid fan site, and the sequence breakers (of whom my community consisted at that time) were his staff. following from this wider focus, he decided to make forums like "the boardwalk" and "the arts" for things not only outside of the realm of metroid prime sequence breaking, but outside of the realm of metroid entirely. thus, metroid 2002 with the mhq forum attached to it in november of 2003 was a very strange sight indeed; i kept hearing "be careful what you wish for" in my head.

so now i have to decide if i can conscientiously exterminate elements i deem unpleasant to my community the way i could if this were the "metroid prime sequence breaking forum". and i really can't, you know, i can't bring myself to disappoint people who actually seem to like this forum for the non-metroid prime sequence breaking-related stuff. clearly at least one person (the person to whose post i am replying) thinks that this emu rape element is not only welcome here, he is willing to tell me to my face that he would rather be banned than say otherwise.

okay, so, i'm supposedly the problem solver; what's the solution?

saber seems to think that we need a new name for this stuff, something that will be attached to it wherever it goes, so that people will know what to expect when they see it. as humans, language can be a useful tool for us. but i think that this idea might be dead on arrival, and let me tell you why.

unless i'm mistaken, the current nomenclature on the emu rape side, "tool-assisted run", originated from the emu rape side, and the current nomenclature on the "[url=http://www.metroid2002.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1929]contingent[/url]" (my community) side, emu rape, originated here, or close enough to here for our purposes. the contingent objects to "tool-assisted" out of clarity's sake - it has been shown time after time that newbs will not understand what the tools or the assistance is unless it is explained to them. failure.

and "emu rape" is pretty offensive, but that is the purpose of the contingent, to place an offensive name on what is offensive to us. however, unless it is to follow the example of "gay" or "ni[i][/i]gger" and be "reclaimed" by the ostracized community it refers to, "emu rape" will probably not do saber's job for us.

the trouble in my mind is that [url=http://www.metroid2002.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=55149#55149]this is hardly the first time this has been brought up[/url]. saber's suggestion seems quite cute and apt to me, but are rapists really going to change all of their nametags from "tool" to "cyborg", especially given that saber often seems to be a member of the contingent? in my experience, they (the rapists) do things when they want to for their own self-serving reasons, much as we do.

with no workable compromise on the horizon, i have to continue to protect my people and their property, and i will do everything in my power to discredit and destroy emu rape when it is not properly labeled as such. just as in real life, no one gets arrested for talking about taboo subjects, but they do make life difficult for themselves and everyone around them when they do.

do not expect this situation to change in the near future.

Maur

2005-12-12 04:11:01 pm

I know of only one person who did an RBO on either a console or emu, and that would be deskjockey_/marie. I think he used save states and an emu.

I'm not even going to touch the argument about nomenclature.

kwinse

2005-12-12 04:22:08 pm

If my opinion matters, I think that TASs aren't bad, except when people do confuse them for console runs.

Saturn, perhaps you should put TAS in the name of the uploaded file(s) to limit confusion on that point.

SABERinBLUE

2005-12-12 04:30:27 pm

Cook of the Sea

All right, given the following:

Quote from njahnke:

the trouble in my mind is that this is hardly the first time this has been brought up. saber's suggestion seems quite cute and apt to me, but are rapists really going to change all of their nametags from "tool" to "cyborg", especially given that saber often seems to be a member of the contingent? in my experience, they (the rapists) do things when they want to for their own self-serving reasons, much as we do.

So I might as well clarify for the benefit of people who don't frequent this forum or certain sections of this forum very much, what exactly my relationship to the contingent is. I have never made a speed run of any game, I have rarely if ever broken sequence, I cannot do Space Jump First or even a Dash Jump. I suck at games, and I'm an artist. I'm staunchly loyal to m2k2, but not in a way that would influence my thought process on an issue such as this in any sort of biased manner. I am sympathetic to both sides in this. I enjoy watching analog and emulated runs equally in different ways. I expect different things from them but I respect both what they are and the people that do them. Furthermore, I see all of this in a somewhat unique light; the entire phenomenon of elite gaming, analog and otherwise, is of great personal and artistic interest to me. Everything in gameplay videos represents something to me, and I doubt I would be able to convey what exactly everything represents in any form other than my young webcomic. I am however extremely fond of the community here at m2k2, and to describe me as a member of the contingent would not be inaccurate.

However, I mean no insult to the emulating community by suggesting the term "cyborg". I offer it for the following reasons:

1: It is as accurate as you can possibly get.

Quote from The first line of the article 'Cyborg' on Wikipedia:

The term cyborg, a portmanteau of cybernetic organism, is used to designate an organism which is a mixture of organic and mechanical (synthetic) parts. Generally, the aim is to add to or enhance the abilities of an organism by using technology.

I can't imagine how anyone could argue that that's not an accurate description of what we at m2k2 call emulation rape. In truth it's more a tightened and cooler-sounding version of "tool assistance" than anything. Which brings me to the next reason:

2: It sounds better than anything currently in use. "Tool assistance" sounds, to me, anyway, as spineless as “vertically challenged person of separate gender" to describe a short woman in poltically correct gibberish. I've never heard a person desribe their emulated run as "tool-assisted" in any tone other than a begrudging "I have to say this so I am" sort of way. Furthermore, "Emulation Rape" contains the word "Rape", which is probably offensive to more than one person out there, I would dare say. Compare:

"Hey guys, check out my Tool-Assisted Speedrun of Metroid II"
"Hey guys, check out my Emu Rape of Metroid II"
"Hey guys, check out my Cyborg Run of Metroid II"

"I am in the middle of doing a run of Metroid II with tool assistance" or "I'm tooling Metroid II"
"I'm raping Metroid II"
"I'm borging Metroid II"

3: I've got nothing riding on this since I've never done a run. This isn't actually a reason that my idea is a good one, but it does stand to show that I'm just offering this as a possible way of easing tensions between two groups of gamers that really have enough in common to make a feud pretty stupid.

A Cybernetically Enchanced Run.
A Cyborg Run.
A Borged Run.
A Borg Run.
To Borg a game.
I am Borging this game.
I have Borged this game.

*shrug* I think it rolls the hell off the tongue, myself. Of course I <3 Cyborgs, but that's just icing on the cake.

All right, given the following:

[quote="njahnke"]the trouble in my mind is that [url=http://www.metroid2002.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=55149#55149]this is hardly the first time this has been brought up[/url]. saber's suggestion seems quite cute and apt to me, but are rapists really going to change all of their nametags from "tool" to "cyborg", especially given that saber often seems to be a member of the contingent? in my experience, they (the rapists) do things when they want to for their own self-serving reasons, much as we do.[/quote]

So I might as well clarify for the benefit of people who don't frequent this forum or certain sections of this forum very much, what exactly my relationship to the contingent is.  I have never made a speed run of any game, I have rarely if ever broken sequence, I cannot do Space Jump First or even a Dash Jump.  I suck at games, and I'm an artist.  I'm staunchly loyal to m2k2, but not in a way that would influence my thought process on an issue such as this in any sort of biased manner.  I am sympathetic to both sides in this.  I enjoy watching analog and emulated runs equally in different ways.  I expect different things from them but I respect both what they are and the people that do them.  Furthermore, I see all of this in a somewhat unique light; the entire phenomenon of elite gaming, analog and otherwise, is of great personal and artistic interest to me.  Everything in gameplay videos represents something to me, and I doubt I would be able to convey what exactly everything represents in any form other than my young webcomic.  I am however extremely fond of the community here at m2k2, and to describe me as a member of the contingent would not be inaccurate.

However, I mean no insult to the emulating community by suggesting the term "cyborg".  I offer it for the following reasons:

1:  It is as accurate as you can possibly get.  [quote="The first line of the article 'Cyborg' on Wikipedia"]The term cyborg, a portmanteau of cybernetic organism, is used to designate an organism which is a mixture of organic and mechanical (synthetic) parts. Generally, the aim is to add to or enhance the abilities of an organism by using technology.[/quote]

I can't imagine how anyone could argue that that's not an accurate description of what we at m2k2 call emulation rape.  In truth it's more a tightened and cooler-sounding version of "tool assistance" than anything.  Which brings me to the next reason:

2:  It sounds better than anything currently in use.  "Tool assistance" sounds, to me, anyway, as spineless as “vertically challenged person of separate gender" to describe a short woman in poltically correct gibberish.  I've never heard a person desribe their emulated run as "tool-assisted" in any tone other than a begrudging "I have to say this so I am" sort of way.  Furthermore, "Emulation Rape" contains the word "Rape", which is probably offensive to more than one person out there, I would dare say.  Compare:

"Hey guys, check out my Tool-Assisted Speedrun of Metroid II"
"Hey guys, check out my Emu Rape of Metroid II"
"Hey guys, check out my Cyborg Run of Metroid II"

"I am in the middle of doing a run of Metroid II with tool assistance" or "I'm tooling Metroid II"
"I'm raping Metroid II"
"I'm borging Metroid II"

3: I've got nothing riding on this since I've never done a run.  This isn't actually a reason that my idea is a good one, but it does stand to show that I'm just offering this as a possible way of easing tensions between two groups of gamers that really have enough in common to make a feud pretty stupid.

A Cybernetically Enchanced Run.  
A Cyborg Run.  
A Borged Run.  
A Borg Run.  
To Borg a game.  
I am Borging this game.  
I have Borged this game.

*shrug*  I think it rolls the hell off the tongue, myself.  Of course I <3 Cyborgs, but that's just icing on the cake.

Fredrik

2005-12-12 05:08:55 pm

I have encountered at least one person who boasted a TAS recording of his as the "world record" for a particular game all over the Internet, and I can see why that makes people who have put years of effort into classic speedrunning go red. This is unfortunate, because many (probably most) TAS recorders are honest about their achievements. Many record both regular and TAS runs, and it's a shame to see communities getting split over something as trivial.

In any case, the word "rape" should be reserved for stuff like this :-)

Saturn

2005-12-12 05:10:19 pm

Now I know at least why Nate insists to disrespect me by intentionaly calling my run a rape instead of a tool assisted speedrun. Maybe its just too good and impresses too much so someone might get jealous, who knows. Intelligent people should just ignore this term then.

I want to note that making a perfect TAS isn't that easy as you think to call it a rape. I work exactly one month on this run now to optimize every move to its limit. You will never get this result unless you experiment many different things in every frame (1 sec has 60 of them).

I know exactly that such runs hurt the speedrunners, and I'm sorry for that. But what can I do here? I like this game very much, and I like making TAS'es and I like to see how a complete RBO run will look like playing as extreme as possible, thats why I make it.

I have absolutely no problem in differing a console run from a TAS. I know they are played in real time and I can see the effort and the engagement the speedrunner put in them. When watching a console run for a game I know of (like this one) I always compare it with my own skills in real time and then you can see the real value of them. A TAS should only demonstrate the optimal way to play this game and nothing else.

Saber:
A "cyborg run" would be a wrong term simply because you have to plan and perform all moves yourself. If a movie would be done by a machine that searches and optimizes every move automatical, detects the optimal jumps or shoots, manipulates luck to the optimum etc. then it would be a cyborg run. I do everything manually by just using savestates and slowdowns. You also have to be very creative to invent possibly better move-combinations in areas where you have more variations to go through and much more things.

Scarlet:
Seeing a console-RBO would be very stuning and impressive to me no matter how the TAS would look like. It wouldn't make a difference because I know it is played in real conditions.

Now I know at least why Nate insists to disrespect me by intentionaly calling my run a rape instead of a tool assisted speedrun. Maybe its just too good and impresses too much so someone might get jealous, who knows. Intelligent people should just ignore this term then.

I want to note that making a perfect TAS isn't that easy as you think to call it a rape. I work exactly one month on this run now to optimize every move to its limit. You will never get this result unless you experiment many different things in every frame (1 sec has 60 of them).

I know exactly that such runs hurt the speedrunners, and I'm sorry for that. But what can I do here? I like this game very much, and I like making TAS'es and I like to see how a complete RBO run will look like playing as extreme as possible, thats why I make it.

I have absolutely no problem in differing a console run from a TAS. I know they are played in real time and I can see the effort and the engagement the speedrunner put in them. When watching a console run for a game I know of  (like this one) I always compare it with my own skills in real time and then you can see the real value of them. A TAS should only demonstrate the optimal way to play this game and nothing else.

Saber:
A "cyborg run" would be a wrong term simply because you have to plan and perform all moves yourself. If a movie would be done by a machine that searches and optimizes every move automatical, detects the optimal jumps or shoots, manipulates luck to the optimum etc. then it would be a cyborg run. I do everything manually by just using savestates and slowdowns. You also have to be very creative to invent possibly better move-combinations in areas where you have more variations to go through and much more things.

Scarlet:
Seeing a console-RBO would be very stuning and impressive to me no matter how the TAS would look like. It wouldn't make a difference because I know it is played in real conditions.

SABERinBLUE

2005-12-12 05:23:06 pm

Cook of the Sea

Quote from Saturn:

Saber:
A "cyborg run" would be a wrong term simply because you have to plan and perform all moves yourself. If a movie would be done by a machine that searches and optimizes every move automatical, detects the optimal jumps or shoots, manipulates luck to the optimum etc. then it would be a cyborg run. I do everything manually by just using savestates and slowdowns. You also have to be very creative to invent possibly better move-combinations in areas where you have more variations to go through and much more things.

Naw, that'd be a robot run. A cyborg is an organism combined with a machine. The organism is you, and the machine is the technology, ie savestates and slowdowns, that allow you to perform actions with precision, accuracy and speed greater than that which a mere human is capable of.

Saturn

2005-12-12 05:28:26 pm

Alright then. If so try to suggest this on Bisqwits. I don't have a problem with this term.

Daniel, Lord Bahamut

2005-12-12 05:53:28 pm

Mega Flare

Well, since I opened this can of worms and effectively spilled it all over the place, I may as well help clean it up...

Quote from njahnke:

sometimes i feel as though this is not only not my message board, but not my website as well, rather a representation or manifestation of something that a community of people working together created -- a community in which i have membership only by default, more as a result of sticking with them for so long rather than out of having produced anything useful to them.

When I said "yours" I meant it in a physical possession sense--you pay for the hosting and bandwidth. It's cool and all to say m2k2 belongs to all of us, but ultimately your word is law.

While reading through one of the threads nate linked to, incidentally the one I talked about in my first post but could not locate, I came across this little nugget which is quite relevant to the situation at hand:

Quote from sdwoodchuck:

Think of Speed Running as any Olympic game. You watch amateur athletes perform at their peak, and can appreciate the amount of effort and skill that goes into what they do. Every so often someone comes along and smashes a world record, and then is found to be using steroids or other performance enhancers. Does the world remember them as a great athlete? No. The world remembers them as a someone who couldn't win on their own.

Remember when the U.S. sent our best professional basketball players into the summer olympics as our "dream team" in direct violation of a tradition of all participating athletes being non-professional? Nobody was impressed when we won the gold medal that year, because we stacked the deck in our favor.

This is the same. Your run is the real deal--the current best that skill has to offer by way of a 100% run. These others... they don't matter. Granted, the internet community in general is a little less wary of deception than an international olympic committee, but people generally will know who was legit, and who was pulling off their unreal times with save-state filled emulator runs--the speed runner's steroid.

The crux of the matter is, there are some TAS runners who, in the past, have attempted to pass off their "raped" runs as the real deal, but were ultimately exposed as fraudulent. Because of those few people, the reputation of the TAS community was forever tarnished, as is evident in nate's opinions. The Olympics analogy is quite apt--steroid abusers are not impressive, since they had an unfair advantage.

I am ambivalent in this matter. I fully support console, aka legit, running, and it's always great to see a new lower time because of a new route or speed trick. But I also enjoy watching, for example, the Sonic 3 & Knuckles in 46 minutes video, because it's just fun to watch.

If you ever visit the bisqwit boards and check into the run in progress discussions, they frequently cite the current records available at SDA as the time to beat, but they never deride the console runs, and that's what I object to, nate: the out-and-out hostility when anyone even mentions a rerecorded video here. Sometimes a trick can only be done via emulator (see the 0% Fusion thread). Does that make it any less cool?

Well, since I opened this can of worms and effectively spilled it all over the place, I may as well help clean it up...

[quote="njahnke"]sometimes i feel as though this is not only not my message board, but not my website as well, rather a representation or manifestation of something that a community of people working together created -- a community in which i have membership only by default, more as a result of sticking with them for so long rather than out of having produced anything useful to them.[/quote]
When I said "yours" I meant it in a physical possession sense--you pay for the hosting and bandwidth. It's cool and all to say m2k2 belongs to all of us, but ultimately your word is law.

While reading through one of the threads nate linked to, incidentally the one I talked about in my first post but could not locate, I came across this little nugget which is quite relevant to the situation at hand:
[quote="sdwoodchuck"]Think of Speed Running as any Olympic game. You watch amateur athletes perform at their peak, and can appreciate the amount of effort and skill that goes into what they do. Every so often someone comes along and smashes a world record, and then is found to be using steroids or other performance enhancers. Does the world remember them as a great athlete? No. The world remembers them as a someone who couldn't win on their own.

Remember when the U.S. sent our best professional basketball players into the summer olympics as our "dream team" in direct violation of a tradition of all participating athletes being non-professional? Nobody was impressed when we won the gold medal that year, because we stacked the deck in our favor.

This is the same. Your run is the real deal--the current best that skill has to offer by way of a 100% run. These others... they don't matter. Granted, the internet community in general is a little less wary of deception than an international olympic committee, but people generally will know who was legit, and who was pulling off their unreal times with save-state filled emulator runs--the speed runner's steroid.[/quote]
The crux of the matter is, there are some TAS runners who, in the past, have attempted to pass off their "raped" runs as the real deal, but were ultimately exposed as fraudulent. Because of those few people, the reputation of the TAS community was forever tarnished, as is evident in nate's opinions. The Olympics analogy is quite apt--steroid abusers are not impressive, since they had an unfair advantage.

I am ambivalent in this matter. I fully support console, aka legit, running, and it's always great to see a new lower time because of a new route or speed trick. But I also enjoy watching, for example, the Sonic 3 & Knuckles in 46 minutes video, because it's just fun to watch.

If you ever visit the bisqwit boards and check into the run in progress discussions, they frequently cite the current records available at SDA as the time to beat, but they never deride the console runs, and that's what I object to, nate: the out-and-out hostility when anyone even mentions a rerecorded video here. Sometimes a trick can only be done via emulator (see the 0% Fusion thread). Does that make it any less cool?

Red Scarlet

2005-12-12 05:53:45 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

A console one would look pretty half-ass compared to the Shocked

displayed only in your teaser. It'd probably be 2x as long and having to get many 'unnecessary' items would make it look less impressive.

If they were both released, the emuvid one would undoubtedly get more viewings and discussion than the 'needs to be improved' console one, IMO.

spineshark

2005-12-12 05:57:14 pm

in the name of justice!

*humorously compares quarked runs to Chinese gangsters doing Karaoke to Michael Jackson music in a manner resembling Chris Tucker as featured in a movie in which he co-stars with Jackie Chan*

Because I forgot what the line actually says...

Anyway, I can't pretend to come from anywhere that's even close to where anybody else here is coming from. Personally, I have watched two of these runs: the Super Metroid 14% and Super Castlevania IV. Honestly, they confused the HELL out of me for the most part, especially the MB battle since it seemed like he was shooting a lot of charge shots that weren't doing any damage. I haven't even played 'Vania IV but I've watched all the console runs for Dracula's Curse and figured out what was going on pretty well.

I'd have to agree with Chanoire...just obviously knowing that almost EVERYTHING is intentional in the run takes a lot of the interest away for me. When Simon's running around with one tick left on his health bar, I don't really feel any, "I can't wait to see how he gets out of this one." Same with an eight minute Ridley fight where Samus doesn't get hit. Most of all I suppose I feel quarked runs look weird, because of all the tight wall jumps that get pulled off a few seconds from each other, and having the whip go limp for a quarter of a second to hit a bat that's flying under Simon.

Now, I like the idea of a quarked run "pioneering" a run of a certain game...in some cases it can give back to console players in a meaningful way. But I don't feel that having emulated runs of games for which console runs already exist, but with "errors" that come down to not making a stupidly ridiculous wall jump or standing on the ground for three frames longer than necessary, adds anything. That's just my opinion...I am a "TAS" hater on principle and I frankly wasn't impressed with the runs I viewed. I have respect for the patience that it takes to make them but...I really just can't see the other side. And I do think that even if only one person looks at a quarked run and then watches a console run with scorn for its "reduced" "perfection" then they have compromised the community.

Ekarderif: I can't believe I never heard about that. Sounds...unhealthy...to me.

*humorously compares quarked runs to Chinese gangsters doing Karaoke to Michael Jackson music in a manner resembling Chris Tucker as featured in a movie in which he co-stars with Jackie Chan*

Because I forgot what the line actually says...

Anyway, I can't pretend to come from anywhere that's even close to where anybody else here is coming from.  Personally, I have watched two of these runs: the Super Metroid 14% and Super Castlevania IV.  Honestly, they confused the HELL out of me for the most part, especially the MB battle since it seemed like he was shooting a lot of charge shots that weren't doing any damage.  I haven't even played 'Vania IV but I've watched all the console runs for Dracula's Curse and figured out what was going on pretty well.

I'd have to agree with Chanoire...just obviously knowing that almost EVERYTHING is intentional in the run takes a lot of the interest away for me.  When Simon's running around with one tick left on his health bar, I don't really feel any, "I can't wait to see how he gets out of this one."  Same with an eight minute Ridley fight where Samus doesn't get hit.  Most of all I suppose I feel quarked runs look weird, because of all the tight wall jumps that get pulled off a few seconds from each other, and having the whip go limp for a quarter of a second to hit a bat that's flying under Simon.

Now, I like the idea of a quarked run "pioneering" a run of a certain game...in some cases it can give back to console players in a meaningful way.  But I don't feel that having emulated runs of games for which console runs already exist, but with "errors" that come down to not making a stupidly ridiculous wall jump or standing on the ground for three frames longer than necessary, adds anything.  That's just my opinion...I am a "TAS" hater on principle and I frankly wasn't impressed with the runs I viewed.  I have respect for the patience that it takes to make them but...I really just can't see the other side.  And I do think that even if only one person looks at a quarked run and then watches a console run with scorn for its "reduced" "perfection" then they have compromised the community.

Ekarderif: I can't believe I never heard about that.  Sounds...unhealthy...to me.

SABERinBLUE

2005-12-12 06:01:08 pm

Cook of the Sea

Quote from Daniel, Lord Bahamut:

Does that make it any less cool?

You want to talk degrees of cool as fact? I agree with most else you said, but come now.

Oh, and the dislike for emulated runs isn't just because of the losers who said their stuff was real. I'll let someone else expand on that because I have to go, but just throwing that out there.

Kejardon

2005-12-12 06:24:33 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

"Sometimes a trick can only be done via emulator (see the 0% Fusion thread). Does that make it any less cool?"

I really dislike this view. Maybe I'm too optimistic about human abilities, but I don't believe that there are individual tricks that are 'too hard' to be humanly possible. It might be impossible to do an entire speedrun's worth of tricks all at once in a person's lifetime, but that's on a hugely different scale.

RT-55J

2005-12-12 06:31:15 pm

Armor Guardian

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

Oh, and the dislike for emulated runs isn't just because of the losers who said their stuff was real. I'll let someone else expand on that because I have to go, but just throwing that out there.

Is it more about the legions of idiots who think it's a real run because they don't read the "Why and How" page?

Saturn

2005-12-12 06:47:10 pm

Quote from Red Scarlet:

A console one would look pretty half-ass compared to the Shocked

displayed only in your teaser. It'd probably be 2x as long and having to get many 'unnecessary' items would make it look less impressive.

Sure it wouldn't be that fast, but the thought that one is done on console and still accomplishs the nearly impossible goal would make it much more impressive (at least for me).

Quote from Red Scarlet:

If they were both released, the emuvid one would undoubtedly get more viewings and discussion than the 'needs to be improved' console one, IMO.

I would definitely discuss the real one and suggest possible improvements which however would be hard to find since the heat won't allow you to make some.