Super Metroid - Reverse Boss Order / Suitless Cyborg Run

SABERinBLUE

2006-01-08 02:44:04 pm

Cook of the Sea

Yeah and how much ass do the Borg kick?

Andrew Mills

2006-01-08 05:06:00 pm

Strategy Guide Writer

Quote from Saturn:

Just uploaded a 2nd AVI-Demo of this run. Check it out!

http://rapidshare.de/files/10490435/Super_Metroid_-_Speed_Demos_2.avi.html

ALso now mirrored at: http://www.zeromission.co.uk/tas/Super_Metroid_Speed_Demo2.avi

Very nice movie Saturn. 8) Looks insane and stupidly fast tbh. Very much looking to gawping at the finished version. :D

DeathNoble

2006-01-08 05:20:51 pm

I've got a question Saturn. You're doing this with the means of being suitless and reverse boss order, right?

So at this point, you haven't faced Ridley yet, have you?

And if you haven't when are you planning on going after him?

Saturn

2006-01-08 06:57:48 pm

Thanks Andrew. I will add the mirror in the first post of the topic :-)

Quote from DeathNoble:

I've got a question Saturn. You're doing this with the means of being suitless and reverse boss order, right?

So at this point, you haven't faced Ridley yet, have you?

And if you haven't when are you planning on going after him?

Right, the run is like the topic-title says and of course I haven't faced Ridley yet (how with only 2 Energy Tanks?).

I'm planning to go after him as soon as I'm strong enough to survive the heat for a longer time-period so now I have to collect as many energy-tanks, super missiles (to use 2 crystal flashes in lower norfair which are unavoidable), power bombs as possible in Crateria and Brinstar. Then I return to Norfair again, grab the Ice-Beam and the Missile-Pack on my way and go to Ridley.

Squash Monster

2006-01-08 10:27:51 pm

In my own attempt at doing a reverse boss order run (human version), it took me 5 energy tanks to get to the bubble room in Norfair, and I gathered 8 tanks + 3 reserve tanks before heading off to Ridley.

With that many tanks, it's entirely possible for a human to get from the recharge room above Lower Norfair to the first room with golden pirates before the first flash. Unfortunately, I don't think you can do the flash with the same bomb you use to open the floor, no matter how cool that would look.

After that, getting to the screw attack is nothing hard, and you can get up out of the screw attack room and race to the big Ridley statue before your reserve tanks turn on (at least, I assume you can. My current best is to get halfway across the tiny room right before it :( ). The energy tank in that room is a free energy recharge, leaving you a very clean shot at the way to Ridley.

Now, assuming the same 5:2 ratio, you should need a bit under five tanks to do all the same stuff. However, I don't think you can get past the entryway with less than 6 tanks (including reserves). If you can get from the screw attack recharge room to Ridley's statue in 6 tanks, you're clear. If you're willing to use a crystal flash on the way, this isn't very hard. And since you get whatever you want from refills, it should be enough.

Also: you're doing reverse boss, and don't care about minibosses. This means you can kill Crocomire if you want, right? I highly recomend it: his area is easy, has a very convenient energy tank, and has the grapple beam. If you have the grapple beam, you don't have to do Mount Doom.

In my own attempt at doing a reverse boss order run (human version), it took me 5 energy tanks to get to the bubble room in Norfair, and I gathered 8 tanks + 3 reserve tanks before heading off to Ridley.

With that many tanks, it's entirely possible for a human to get from the recharge room above Lower Norfair to the first room with golden pirates before the first flash.  Unfortunately, I don't think you can do the flash with the same bomb you use to open the floor, no matter how cool that would look.

After that, getting to the screw attack is nothing hard, and you can get up out of the screw attack room and race to the big Ridley statue before your reserve tanks turn on (at least, I assume you can.  My current best is to get halfway across the tiny room right before it  :( ).  The energy tank in that room is a free energy recharge, leaving you a very clean shot at the way to Ridley.

Now, assuming the same 5:2 ratio, you should need a bit under five tanks to do all the same stuff.  However, I don't think you can get past the entryway with less than 6 tanks (including reserves).  If you can get from the screw attack recharge room to Ridley's statue in 6 tanks, you're clear.  If you're willing to use a crystal flash on the way, this isn't very hard.  And since you get whatever you want from refills, it should be enough.

Also: you're doing reverse boss, and don't care about minibosses.  This means you can kill Crocomire if you want, right?  I highly recomend it: his area is easy, has a very convenient energy tank, and has the grapple beam.  If you have the grapple beam, you don't have to do Mount Doom.

Saturn

2006-01-09 06:35:41 am

Quote from Squash Monster:

Also: you're doing reverse boss, and don't care about minibosses. This means you can kill Crocomire if you want, right? I highly recomend it: his area is easy, has a very convenient energy tank, and has the grapple beam. If you have the grapple beam, you don't have to do Mount Doom.

No, I will skip all mini-bosses which are avoidable (all except Botwoon) for a strict Reverse Boss Order. The time I lose without Grapple Beam in Mt.Doom is saved by not fighting Crocomire so it wouldn't be slower IMO. I will only have 7 Energy Tanks and 1 Reserve Tank before going to lower Norfair and I will also skip the Screw Attack. My biggest problem will be to return after defeating Ridley to the green bubble room without doing any more crystal flashes on the way (I don't have the needed Super Missiles for that) which after some testing turned out to be extremely close.

SABERinBLUE

2006-01-09 09:26:22 am

Cook of the Sea

Oh hey, Saturn, I can probably mirror the run when it's done.

nate

2006-01-09 06:45:37 pm

hate to open old wounds, but everyone who thinks that people know what tas/borging is, check out this thread:

http://www.ga-forum.com/showthread.php?t=79895

scarlet doesn't count.

13M13

2006-01-09 07:28:23 pm

l'appel du vide

Are people not allowed to be ignorant? I didn't read anything that was "damaging" to the speed running community, and I thought Scarlet did a good job at alleviating any confusion on the matter.

So...uh...I don't get it...

Question

Yoshi348

2006-01-09 07:34:30 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Meh, I really don't want to get into this again, but... I'm getting into this again because I'm a big dumb dork and you kinda phrased your post as a question... IHMO it idn't seem like many people caught on to the two or three posts that talked about it in varying degrees of judgement. I'm seeing the major weakness of the tool-assisted term in that very few people actually know that it's actually possible to DO frame-by-frame.

What a random forum thread means to you or to speedrunners is that all too slippery human factor.

nate

2006-01-09 07:38:06 pm

imagine if you watched a real mario 64 run (human player) after you saw that, still thinking it had been real.

SABERinBLUE

2006-01-09 07:44:46 pm

Cook of the Sea

Doesn't matter, because your conclusions would be based on false premises. You'd be ignorant and your conclusions incorrect.

Yoshi348

2006-01-09 07:50:02 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Quote from njahnke:

hate to open old wounds

but I'm opening old wounds so NAH!

EDIT @ SABER: I really don't want to bolster Nate's zealotry too much, but truth is truth and I've already seen 3 or 4 speedrunners quit because of ignorant people like that. Don't assume that everyone's motivations for speedrunning are the same; there seems to be quite a few people for whom fame among the masses is a significant factor. Unfortunately there's no real way for me to tell what motivations are more common than others.

nate

2006-01-09 07:55:25 pm

you sound as if you don't care how other people get on in this world.

SABERinBLUE

2006-01-09 07:59:29 pm

Cook of the Sea

If people do it for fame, then they've gotta deal with the fact that most people are stupid. Bottom line. That's not anyone's fault, it's just how the world works.

13M13

2006-01-09 08:09:16 pm

l'appel du vide

I agree with Saber. I wouldn't particularly care what they thought of the console run; their opinion would be meaningless. All you can do is label tool-assisted runs as such; let the chips fall where they may.

Quote from Yoshi348:

I've already seen 3 or 4 speedrunners quit because of ignorant people like that. ... here seems to be quite a few people for whom fame among the masses is a significant factor.

So? What are you suggesting we do about that? Abolish the creation of emulator runs so that a few console speedrunners don't get their feelings hurt? I still don't get it...

Yoshi348

2006-01-09 08:15:14 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

I don't know what I'm suggesting, okay? Life doesn't hand out easy answers.

SABERinBLUE

2006-01-09 08:32:24 pm

Cook of the Sea

Right, so all I'm saying is let's all get along. I know this is stupidly naive of me to even entertain the possibility that it could happen in the near future, but come on, it can't be that hard.

13M13

2006-01-09 08:42:28 pm

l'appel du vide

I meant no offense, Yoshi. I'm just genuinely confused about why this came up.

evilchen

2006-01-10 10:06:47 am

Quote:

I'm planning to go after him as soon as I'm strong enough to survive the heat for a longer time-period so now I have to collect as many energy-tanks, super missiles (to use 2 crystal flashes in lower norfair which are unavoidable), power bombs as possible in Crateria and Brinstar. Then I return to Norfair again, grab the Ice-Beam and the Missile-Pack on my way and go to Ridley.

remember you can take the energy tank in lower norfair to refresh your self
or you can go to golden torizo and get an energy refresh after his room at the screw attack room

greetz :D

Saturn

2006-01-10 12:46:32 pm

I need this Energy Tank as a refill on the way to Ridley before fighting him, there is no way around that. Going to the Golden Torizo just because of the energy-refill is a big time-waste and won't make the run through the heat that close and entertaining that's why I will try to avoid this at all costs.

And I'm sorry for those who still can't differ a TAS from a console run or those who care about their incorrect opinions.

evilchen

2006-01-10 01:59:09 pm

oh ya i understand.. :)
but for me on a console(pal) with out tools it was very good to get the screw attack and the refill there, because the way to the screw attack threw the green supermissile gate wasn't that easy

DeathNoble

2006-01-10 04:58:02 pm

Let's all remember one thing here about the huge difference between console runs and runs that are enhanced by the use of emulators or other tools.

The fact that runs using such tools will not be accepted by the speedrunning "shrines" ex- SDA. Those are the places that host runs done only on console.

If anyone watches things like that Mario 64 run in sixteen minutes and think that "Wow, that's the official world record, anybody can pick up a controller and do that!" or something along those lines, then let's face it. Those people are obviously not people that are willing to dedicate themselves to video games, like us here. So what do we care about them?

I'm not trying to take anything away from you Saturn, by all means, no. Your vids so far are the most insane, crazy thing I have ever seen. I know that you dedicate great hours of time to this run. I know you work hard. By all means, if anybody tries to take anything away from you simply because you're using tools to do this... Then let them be like that. If people don't believe you're putting your heart into this run, that's on them. We here know you put your heart into it.

There was a man who once said something that's gone down in quote history. I can't remember his name or anything about him. All I remember is what he said:

Quote:

There's ten million people that hate me. But there's a million people that love me.

I think, in a way, that quote applies to this.

Let's all remember one thing here about the huge difference between console runs and runs that are enhanced by the use of emulators or other tools.

The fact that runs using such tools will not be accepted by the speedrunning "shrines" ex- SDA.  Those are the places that host runs done only on console.

If anyone watches things like that Mario 64 run in sixteen minutes and think that "Wow, that's the official world record, anybody can pick up a controller and do that!" or something along those lines, then let's face it.  Those people are obviously not people that are willing to dedicate themselves to video games, like us here.  So what do we care about them?

I'm not trying to take anything away from you Saturn, by all means, no.  Your vids so far are the most insane, crazy thing I have ever seen.  I know that you dedicate great hours of time to this run.  I know you work hard.  By all means, if anybody tries to take anything away from you simply because you're using tools to do this...  Then let them be like that.  If people don't believe you're putting your heart into this run, that's on them.  We here know you put your heart into it.

There was a man who once said something that's gone down in quote history.  I can't remember his name or anything about him.  All I remember is what he said:
[quote]There's ten million people that hate me.  But there's a million people that love me.[/quote]
I think, in a way, that quote applies to this.

13M13

2006-01-10 05:45:20 pm

l'appel du vide

Perhaps, if needed, we can continue this discussion elsewhere? I don't believe Saturn appreciates the perpetual hijack.

Saturn

2006-01-10 05:51:18 pm

Very well said DeathNoble. I'm glad someone appreciate my hard work on it.