Super Metroid - Reverse Boss Order / Suitless Cyborg Run

2005-12-13 03:52:51 pm

Omega also made a legitimate series of points, even though they were a little bit angry. Mostly everyone's annoyed because this whole naming thing should have been resolved months ago, but Saber had to suddenly go and pull out this goofy "cyborg" thing and ask everybody to switch to it. All of a sudden.

nate

2005-12-13 03:56:53 pm

no, i don't think they really said anything of value/were able to come up with any logical reasons not to take the suggestion. most of what i read centered around "how dare they, the lofty metroid 2002, tell us what to do!" - that part i actually predicted when i said that saber might be seen as a member of the contingent, when i instinctively knew that this would never be resolved without an unbiased third party. but, you know, figured there was little to be lost by trying; if anything, would just help people here understand what we are dealing with over there.

the other thing people kept bringing up was how they took 'tas' from doom running. there are so many problems with that i don't know where to begin.

well, here's one thing: sda is already much more mainstream than anything else out there, so the potential for misunderstanding is exponentially greater. it's not a tiny community where everyone knows everyone else and everyone knows about tools, tool assistance, and tool-assisted runs like the doom community undoubtedly was/is.

incidentally, i believe that radix stopped allowing people to submit things without attaching their real names for this same reason: if sda is not already mainstream, it is currently being piloted in that direction. radix used an example that was something like, would it be aired on the nightly news, would it be on msnbc.com, etc, and that got me thinking - what term would the mainstream media use for tool-assisted runs? certainly not emu rape ... tool-assisted is too confusing ... oh, right, they wouldn't talk about them at all. the only times they have been mentioned in the mainstream media have been when we have used our connections to raise awareness of emu rape, such as in this article:

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=2&cId=3142599

Quote from 1up.com:

It soon came to light that this and other Morimoto runs were "tool-assisted;" that is, they had been artificially created through the careful manipulation of emulator save states. In essence, games could be played frame by frame, and any segment with a mistake, however miniscule, could be erased and done over and over until the performance seemed suitably flawless. This was tedious, painstaking work, but some players had the patience and perseverance to pull it off.

This phenomenon raised troubling new questions about the authenticity of game replays. It proved very difficult to tell a well-done tool-assisted run from an authentic run, leading to the fear that the unchecked proliferation of tool-assisted demos could bring about the downfall of competitive speed running. On the other hand, tool-assisted demos can be great fun to watch, as it's cool to see well-known games played beyond human limits.

Some compromise has been reached via the establishment of demo sites that specialize in tool-assisted videos, which could conceivably help keep such content out of the "serious" speed running archives. However, it's still possible for players to cheat, so some are taking stricter measures. The well-established Speed Demos Archive, for example, only accepts submissions recorded the old-fashioned way: off of the actual game console. This may be strict, but the necessity is obvious.

sounds great!! how do you think they got all that info? i'm especially digging the paragraph-long attempt at clarifying what "tool-assisted" actually means, since apparently no one would know at first glance.

the way it's portrayed there is very accurate, imo - those of us in charge of archiving legitimate speed runs are also in charge of carefully policing people trying to hawk emu rape and making sure that no one misunderstands what it is they are seeing. in reality, that is the core of my position right there.

anyway, little bit of a response from me for y'all.

no, i don't think they really said anything of value/were able to come up with any logical reasons not to take the suggestion. most of what i read centered around "how dare they, the lofty metroid 2002, tell us what to do!" - that part i actually predicted when i said that saber might be seen as a member of the contingent, when i instinctively knew that this would never be resolved without an unbiased third party. but, you know, figured there was little to be lost by trying; if anything, would just help people here understand what we are dealing with over there.

the other thing people kept bringing up was how they took 'tas' from doom running. there are so many problems with that i don't know where to begin.

well, here's one thing: sda is already much more mainstream than anything else out there, so the potential for misunderstanding is exponentially greater. it's not a tiny community where everyone knows everyone else and everyone knows about tools, tool assistance, and tool-assisted runs like the doom community undoubtedly was/is.

incidentally, i believe that radix stopped allowing people to submit things without attaching their real names for this same reason: if sda is not already mainstream, it is currently being piloted in that direction. radix used an example that was something like, would it be aired on the nightly news, would it be on msnbc.com, etc, and that got me thinking - what term would the mainstream media use for tool-assisted runs? certainly not emu rape ... tool-assisted is too confusing ... oh, right, [i]they wouldn't talk about them at all[/i]. the only times they have been mentioned in the mainstream media have been when we have used our connections to raise awareness of emu rape, such as in this article:

[url]http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=2&cId=3142599[/url]
[quote="1up.com"]It soon came to light that this and other Morimoto runs were "tool-assisted;" that is, they had been artificially created through the careful manipulation of emulator save states. In essence, games could be played frame by frame, and any segment with a mistake, however miniscule, could be erased and done over and over until the performance seemed suitably flawless. This was tedious, painstaking work, but some players had the patience and perseverance to pull it off.

This phenomenon raised troubling new questions about the authenticity of game replays. It proved very difficult to tell a well-done tool-assisted run from an authentic run, leading to the fear that the unchecked proliferation of tool-assisted demos could bring about the downfall of competitive speed running. On the other hand, tool-assisted demos can be great fun to watch, as it's cool to see well-known games played beyond human limits.

Some compromise has been reached via the establishment of demo sites that specialize in tool-assisted videos, which could conceivably help keep such content out of the "serious" speed running archives. However, it's still possible for players to cheat, so some are taking stricter measures. The well-established Speed Demos Archive, for example, only accepts submissions recorded the old-fashioned way: off of the actual game console. This may be strict, but the necessity is obvious.[/quote]
sounds great!! how do you think they got all that info? i'm especially digging the paragraph-long attempt at clarifying what "tool-assisted" actually means, since apparently no one would know at first glance.

the way it's portrayed there is very accurate, imo - those of us in charge of archiving legitimate speed runs are also in charge of carefully policing people trying to hawk emu rape and making sure that no one misunderstands what it is they are seeing. in reality, that is the core of my position right there.

anyway, little bit of a response from me for y'all.

Ryan Ferneau

2005-12-13 04:04:29 pm

And you think people will know what "cyborg" means right away? I bet they'll imagine the game players are covered in metal and stuff. Let's face it, some concepts need a lot of explanation no matter what.

Daniel, Lord Bahamut

2005-12-13 04:07:08 pm

Mega Flare

Looks like your thread didn't exactly get a warm reception, Saber. I think both sides have the same problem: a few closed-minded individuals influencing the community as a whole. You proporse a treaty of sorts, were shot down by two people initially, then everyone else bandwagoned.

I'm gonna disagree with the term "emu rape" because it certainly brings to mind violence, which isn't what that is. You're not angrily banging on the keyboard and suddenly you complete Super Metroid in 23 minutes. I think LocalH from bisqwit's said it most eloquently:

Quote from LocalH:

I understand that M2k2 is his [nate's] forum and he can say what he wants, but it's also my right to call him a loony for equating "makes emulated speedruns with slowdown and savestates" with "forcibly having sex with someone against their will".

At this point I'd like to suggest a split, since this thread has certainly gone very far away from the original topic of Saturn's reverse boss order TAS.

Yoshi348

2005-12-13 04:11:09 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

After all this, there's pretty much no way in hell the original topic's getting saved.

Ryan Ferneau

2005-12-13 04:12:33 pm

Why not?

nate

2005-12-13 04:16:10 pm

made a poll.

as for the localh quote, all i can say is, i didn't come up with the term (any of them).

edit: this just in at sda:
[quote="Ritch at [url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=consoles_older;action=display;num=1132935214;start=90]sda[/url]"]Just watched the TAS for Sonic The Hedgehog 2 and WOW that was fast. If somebody could produce a run with all of that spin dashing i would be very impressed. What sort of times are people getting on test runs?[/quote]
implication is that he wouldn't be impressed by anything other than a run comparable to rape now (which will never happen). thanks, guys!

Andrew Mills

2005-12-13 04:37:56 pm

Strategy Guide Writer

As far as I'm personally concerned (thus as far as Samus.co.uk is also concerned as a site), I have no qualms with hosting TAS's for public viewing, seeing as they are - ultimately - created for a similar purpose to console speed runs, which is to entertain and wow the viewer. I WILL however ensure that both are kept seperate and the TAS's will be labelled very clearly as so (along with a breif description of what a TAS actually is in comparison to console speedruns).

I personally prefer a term such as "Emulator Assisted Speedrun" or similar simply because in the realms of "the mainstream" as Nate is constantly referring to, the phrase "emulator" is MUCH better known and understood (in general and more so within the computing and gaming realms). And you ARE using an emulator to help you create such runs. So I don't see how that phrase wouldn't work all round. :|

As far as Saturn's run is concerned, I'm very much looking forward to it and to making it known to a wider audience. Maybe SCU could help towards the further-education of what TAS's are in comparison to console based runs. One can only try...

As far as I'm personally concerned (thus as far as Samus.co.uk is also concerned as a site), I have no qualms with hosting TAS's for public viewing, seeing as they are - ultimately - created for a similar purpose to console speed runs, which is to entertain and wow the viewer. I WILL however ensure that both are kept seperate and the TAS's will be labelled very clearly as so (along with a breif description of what a TAS actually is in comparison to console speedruns).

I personally prefer a term such as "Emulator Assisted Speedrun" or similar simply because in the realms of "the mainstream" as Nate is constantly referring to, the phrase "emulator" is MUCH better known and understood (in general and more so within the computing and gaming realms). And you ARE using an emulator to help you create such runs. So I don't see how that phrase wouldn't work all round. :|

As far as Saturn's run is concerned, I'm very much looking forward to it and to making it known to a wider audience. Maybe SCU could help towards the further-education of what TAS's are in comparison to console based runs. One can only try...

Ekarderif

2005-12-13 04:41:26 pm

Or better yet, "emulated assisted demonstration" as someone at Bisqwit also pointed out. If it's not a speedrun, why dub it as one, hmm?

nate

2005-12-13 04:42:14 pm

problem with just 'emu' is that at one time, real runs were done on emulators, and i'm not sure i'm ready to equate emulated with raped, even though no reputable place accepts emulated runs.

edit: and yeah, speed run should absolutely not be used to describe it.

Yoshi348

2005-12-13 04:42:55 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

I'm not too worked up about it, but I think TAS is a pretty weak term. It doesn't put across the full extent of what's going on.

But man, is calling it Emulator Assisted is a BAD idea. I really really don't like how so many people think that any run on an emulator is now tool-assisted. Emulated runs may not be acceptable for the world record times because of the high degree of presicion nessecary, that gets thrown off with the inevitable differences between the emulator and the console, but they're perfectly fine for more casual time comparing.

EDIT: Double simu-post Crying or Very sad

Andrew Mills

2005-12-13 04:43:58 pm

Strategy Guide Writer

Quote from Ekarderif:

Or better yet, "emulated assisted demonstration" as someone at Bisqwit also pointed out. If it's not a speedrun, why dub it as one, hmm?

Why not go one better an perhaps label them either "Emulator Assisted Speedrun" for actual speedruns or "Emulator Assisted Tech Demo"? Or colse to that?

Pretty clear and non-misleading labelling now no?

Quote from njahnke:

problem with just 'emu' is that at one time, real runs were done on emulators, and i'm not sure i'm ready to equate emulated with raped, even though no reputable place accepts emulated runs.

edit: and yeah, speed run should absolutely not be used to describe it.

But maybe a lot of people who are only becoming aware of speedrunning (aka: the mainstream) weren't around at such times when emu's WERE the quipment of choice. Maybe now IS the time to embrace both and educate to everyone the pros and differences between both.

Or do you feel that is too great a task perhaps?

Chanoire

2005-12-13 04:54:29 pm

(There have been a bunch of posts since I started writing this, but I'll just submit as-is and then catch up. Sorry if any of this has become redundant.)

Good try, Saber. I applaud your efforts, and your fine representation of this community, and think very well of Bisqwit for his reply as well.

It's always of some amusement to me, regardless of where I land in the spectrum of viewpoints, to see two entities square off with one saying "I don't like this, change it!" and the other saying "No, you change!" and similarly symmetric exchanges in which no agreement can be reached because neither is willing to budge. This wasn't entirely true, as there were some suggestions over there just as there have been some more moderate posts here, but ultimately that was the result. And, of course, members of each group calling the other group immature, which is practically obligatory. Of course, personal viewpoints tend to influence what individuals think is reasonable; folks who don't share Saber's fascination with cyborgs won't see it as the generally positive term he means to suggest, and those without Nate's intense feelings about game rules will certainly see his terminology as extreme and far over the top, especially when they are the ones being called rapists. (Just as probably most people without my intense feeling about terminology will probably not see why I never use the term myself to refer to gameplay or anything but the actual act. I cannot begin to describe my reaction if I had started on the other side of the fence as a constructor of replay game videos and found myself labelled a rapist because of it, especially by someone I respect.)

With all that, I am sorry that it seems to come down to a desire on one side to be disparaging -- not merely separating and making things clear that these are not the same thing, but specifically insulting and degrading -- and the other's desire to, well, not be insulted and degraded and preserve dignity to the extent of making the separation difficult to see. I am disturbed by the ultimatum of "here, you have to call it this, because this is the only thing we'll call it around here", as I am with the statement by Saber that it's just the m2k2 vernacular. If this is the only place it's used, then can't we substitute a different idiosyncratic term which is also only used by us? Include an all-caps sticky in every board WHAT THE HELL IS A QUARKED RUN AND HOW STRONGLY DO YOU/WE FEEL ABOUT IT? which clearly defines the term and even specifies the hostility of individual members towards the actions it represents. I mean, we have this current term, used by the majority here, and yet we have threads like this one in which not a few people state that yes, they see a place for TASs and in fact don't find their existence a sign of the collapse of civilization -- and then wonder why the community whose members are thereby labelled rapists think we're intensely hostile and collectively jerks. Because even people who don't feel that way are using terminology that conveys that. I would have a hard time seeing good of a group that referred to all members of a separate group to which I belonged as, oh, brainless bitch sluts regardless of whether a given individual using the term actually thought that of the group to which it referred. (I'm not good at direct insults, so sorry if the example lacks force.) Heck, if I were visiting m2k2 for the frst time and looking at ZM tricks and seeing Emu Rape as one of the categories my reaction would be disgust at yet another example of immature guys thinking that just because they've never been in fear of rape that it's humorous and acceptable to joke about it, these jerks aren't worth my time. I <3 this board, but seriously, use of the term doesn't make us look any better, nor does it have much of the effect we want because we're the only ones using it, since strangely enough the people making the vids we're worried will deceive viewers into thinking ours suck don't like labelling their work as rape. Funny that. I don't think we're gaining anything out of the term but venting spleen, folks. Has it occurred to you that even a random person who doesn't have my hardcoded response to the term could simply think we're putting down a group that does it "better" than us out of bitterness and not investigate any further to learn if there's an actual difference? Of course, this would likely be the same random person who ignores all of the text that does indicate what a TAS is.

*breath*

I really wish a compromise (ha!) could be reached. It isn't unreasonable for them to suggest that we start labelling our runs as legit, since it's a pretty unambiguous term and certainly not one whose meaning we could object to -- though to be fair there are surely those who would rank glitch exploitation in a similar manner and consider us to be cheating too. Likewise, it isn't unreasonable of us to request a matching modification in their terminology to further delineate the difference; one person there suggested "tool-assisted demonstration" (though I understand if that would not be appreciated due to "demo" used in its SDA meaning) and there are surely other suggestions in that 11-page topic which I didn't read. But it can't be "the console runners should label theirs Old-School speedruns so we can keep the Tool-Assisted Speedruns designation we like" OR "the TASers should label theirs tool-assisted [something] runs so we can keep the speedruns designation we like." I know we feel we're in the right and so we shouldn't have to change, but we're also the ones concerned with the identification and terminology so we should be willing to take a step in achieving our goal rather than demanding other people make all the changes for an objective they don't really care about and which they feel is already handled sufficiently by the disclaimers all over the place.

One last note in this long-winded post: It's an interesting point about Doom edited demos being done starting 10 years ago. However, how many people looking at vids now know about this derivation? Seems like half the internet is people who could barely read ten years ago. The history is a valid argument, but not practical enough considering the actual audience now.

(There have been a bunch of posts since I started writing this, but I'll just submit as-is and then catch up.  Sorry if any of this has become redundant.)

Good try, Saber.  I applaud your efforts, and your fine representation of this community, and think very well of Bisqwit for his reply as well.

It's always of some amusement to me, regardless of where I land in the spectrum of viewpoints, to see two entities square off with one saying "I don't like this, change it!" and the other saying "No, you change!" and similarly symmetric exchanges in which no agreement can be reached because neither is willing to budge.  This wasn't entirely true, as there were some suggestions over there just as there have been some more moderate posts here, but ultimately that was the result.  And, of course, members of each group calling the other group immature, which is practically obligatory.  Of course, personal viewpoints tend to influence what individuals think is reasonable; folks who don't share Saber's fascination with cyborgs won't see it as the generally positive term he means to suggest, and those without Nate's intense feelings about game rules will certainly see his terminology as extreme and far over the top, especially when they are the ones being called rapists.  (Just as probably most people without my intense feeling about terminology will probably not see why I never use the term myself to refer to gameplay or anything but the actual act.  I cannot begin to describe my reaction if I had started on the other side of the fence as a constructor of replay game videos and found myself labelled a rapist because of it, especially by someone I respect.)

With all that, I am sorry that it seems to come down to a desire on one side to be disparaging -- not merely separating and making things clear that these are not the same thing, but specifically insulting and degrading -- and the other's desire to, well, not be insulted and degraded and preserve dignity to the extent of making the separation difficult to see.  I am disturbed by the ultimatum of "here, you have to call it this, because this is the only thing we'll call it around here", as I am with the statement by Saber that it's just the m2k2 vernacular.  If this is the only place it's used, then can't we substitute a different idiosyncratic term which is also only used by us?  Include an all-caps sticky in every board WHAT THE HELL IS A QUARKED RUN AND HOW STRONGLY DO YOU/WE FEEL ABOUT IT? which clearly defines the term and even specifies the hostility of individual members towards the actions it represents.  I mean, we have this current term, used by the majority here, and yet we have threads like this one in which not a few people state that yes, they see a place for TASs and in fact don't find their existence a sign of the collapse of civilization -- and then wonder why the community whose members are thereby labelled rapists think we're intensely hostile and collectively jerks.  Because even people who don't feel that way are using terminology that conveys that.  I would have a hard time seeing good of a group that referred to all members of a separate group to which I belonged as, oh, brainless bitch sluts regardless of whether a given individual using the term actually thought that of the group to which it referred.  (I'm not good at direct insults, so sorry if the example lacks force.)  Heck, if I were visiting m2k2 for the frst time and looking at ZM tricks and seeing Emu Rape as one of the categories my reaction would be disgust at yet another example of immature guys thinking that just because they've never been in fear of rape that it's humorous and acceptable to joke about it, these jerks aren't worth my time.  I <3 this board, but seriously, use of the term doesn't make us look any better, nor does it have much of the effect we want because we're the only ones using it, since strangely enough the people making the vids we're worried will deceive viewers into thinking ours suck don't like labelling their work as rape.  Funny that.  I don't think we're gaining anything out of the term but venting spleen, folks.  Has it occurred to you that even a random person who doesn't have my hardcoded response to the term could simply think we're putting down a group that does it "better" than us out of bitterness and not investigate any further to learn if there's an actual difference?  Of course, this would likely be the same random person who ignores all of the text that does indicate what a TAS is.

*breath*

I really wish a compromise (ha!) could be reached.  It isn't unreasonable for them to suggest that we start labelling our runs as legit, since it's a pretty unambiguous term and certainly not one whose meaning we could object to -- though to be fair there are surely those who would rank glitch exploitation in a similar manner and consider us to be cheating too.  Likewise, it isn't unreasonable of us to request a matching modification in their terminology to further delineate the difference; one person there suggested "tool-assisted demonstration" (though I understand if that would not be appreciated due to "demo" used in its SDA meaning) and there are surely other suggestions in that 11-page topic which I didn't read.  But it can't be "the console runners should label theirs Old-School speedruns so we can keep the Tool-Assisted Speedruns designation we like" OR "the TASers should label theirs tool-assisted [something] runs so we can keep the speedruns designation we like."  I know we feel we're in the right and so we shouldn't have to change, but we're also the ones concerned with the identification and terminology so we should be willing to take a step in achieving our goal rather than demanding other people make all the changes for an objective they don't really care about and which they feel is already handled sufficiently by the disclaimers all over the place.

One last note in this long-winded post: It's an interesting point about Doom edited demos being done starting 10 years ago.  However, how many people looking at vids [i]now[/i] know about this derivation?  Seems like half the internet is people who could barely read ten years ago.  The history is a valid argument, but not practical enough considering the actual audience now.

Ryan Ferneau

2005-12-13 05:04:42 pm

Quote from Ekarderif:

Or better yet, "emulated assisted demonstration" as someone at Bisqwit also pointed out. If it's not a speedrun, why dub it as one, hmm?

But it is a speedrun if it goes for the fastest time to completion, since it's a run that involves speed. There may be other goals involved, but movies are judged primarily on the elapsed time, so a non-speed "demonstration" tends to be the exception to the rule.

MonsterERB

2005-12-13 05:15:43 pm

Over in the poll Nate created, I suggested the term "computer-assisted technical demonstration". Wordy, but I think it's very accurate and fair.
...
You can read my long post in the other topic if you wish. Wink

===
EDIT
===

Quote from Ryan Ferneau:

But it is a speedrun if it goes for the fastest time to completion, since it's a run that involves speed.

I disagree. A "speed run" to me implies not only the final clock time, but that the game was played FAST. I have difficulty equating any run in which slowdown is used as a speed run. How can it be a speed run when Samus is moving in slow motion???
...
That's just my personal opinion. In my mind, slowdown is the worse of the two "tools". If you use savestates only (and no slowdown), at least any maneuvers must be pulled off in real time. The savestates just change the game into a "Samus is carrying a portable save station on her back" quasi-single-segment run.

Maur

2005-12-13 06:26:32 pm

I'm going to be using the pronounds us/we/them/they/etc liberally. I realize there are many factions within each group, but I'm aiming for simplicity here.

Honestly, I personally believe that nothing is going to change anytime soon. And if it does, it'll be something internally motivated by the group over at bisqwit's, and that motivation will be something that doesn't exist now. Marginalization of their side, perhaphs, from more and more press or something like that. But the way things stand, nothing is changing anytime soon.

Look at the current situation. Look at it. Or more specifically, look at the motivations. Notice how we are the only ones who really seem to care about the issue? Sure, they've had a few posts over there saying 'heh, we should probably change.' They're saying it because we make it quite apparent that we think the 'TAS' nomenclature sucks. They're talking about it because of the backlash from this side, not because they actually think they should change.

They put their explanation pages up, they label all their videos, they dropped usage of the term 'time-attack.' Many of them think they've done enough, and it's a decent argument. It's not like they're trying to fly under the radar or something. If the regular Joe we're always theorizing about doesn't understand the term when he sees the video and refuses to look it up, they can easily claim that it's because he's stupid, and it'd definitely be justified. And why do we care about him in the first place, anyways?

Now look at us. The non-assisted/regular speedrun side. Why do we care? Because some of us feel that they take something away from us. Some essential spark, ethereal but still there. They make our runs 'less good.' Our runs are less enjoyable. Truth be told, their runs do wow more easily. I've seen enough of them to go 'O_O!' myself at some points. It's easy to see where the reaction comes from.

Now look at how we treat them. Emu-rape. Rapists. Complete disrespect and disdain from many. So on and so forth. They are not listening to us anytime soon, and we just proved it.

Now, if they don't honestly care, and if they don't like us, are they doing anything about it anytime soon?

No.

We put ourselves in this hole, and we dug it enthusiastically. Now we deal with it.

I'm going to be using the pronounds us/we/them/they/etc liberally.  I realize there are many factions within each group, but I'm aiming for simplicity here.

Honestly, I personally believe that nothing is going to change anytime soon.  And if it does, it'll be something internally motivated by the group over at bisqwit's, and that motivation will be something that doesn't exist now.  Marginalization of their side, perhaphs, from more and more press or something like that.  But the way things stand, nothing is changing anytime soon.

Look at the current situation.  Look at it.  Or more specifically, look at the motivations.  Notice how we are the only ones who really seem to care about the issue?  Sure, they've had a few posts over there saying 'heh, we should probably change.'  They're saying it because we make it quite apparent that we think the 'TAS' nomenclature sucks.  They're talking about it because of the backlash from this side, not because they actually think they should change.

They put their explanation pages up, they label all their videos, they dropped usage of the term 'time-attack.'  Many of them think they've done enough, and it's a decent argument.  It's not like they're trying to fly under the radar or something.  If the regular Joe we're always theorizing about doesn't understand the term when he sees the video and refuses to look it up, they can easily claim that it's because he's stupid, and it'd definitely be justified.  And why do we care about him in the first place, anyways?

Now look at us.  The non-assisted/regular speedrun side.  Why do we care?  Because some of us feel that they take something away from us.  Some essential spark, ethereal but still there.  They make our runs 'less good.'  Our runs are less enjoyable.  Truth be told, their runs do wow more easily.  I've seen enough of them to go 'O_O!' myself at some points.  It's easy to see where the reaction comes from.

Now look at how we treat them.  Emu-rape.  Rapists.  Complete disrespect and disdain from many.  So on and so forth.  They are [b]not[/b] listening to us anytime soon, and we just proved it.

Now, if they don't honestly care, and if they don't like us, are they doing anything about it anytime soon?

No.

We put ourselves in this hole, and we dug it enthusiastically.  Now we deal with it.

nate

2005-12-13 06:33:12 pm

don't think it was voluntary so much as inevitable. this is just the first of many growing pains speed running will have as it becomes mainstream.

MonsterERB

2005-12-13 06:42:54 pm

Just wanted to make one thing clear, since after reading some of my previous posts I came across sounding like a bit of a console demagogue - I am actually quite looking forward to seeing Saturn's completed RBO run. It should be a lot of fun to watch. I think this is a GREAT use of "TAS" technology... this is a category for which there is, at the moment, no recorded console run. This will show what is theoretically possible to achieve. Granted that any console player will make more mistakes and achieve a slower final time, of course, but I think it will encourage console runners to try it out. (Some may be put off completely, but some will say, "Hey, I can do this. Let's see how close I can get.")
...
For instace, let's say Saturn turns in a (tool-assisted) RBO run in 0:48. Jaw-dropping moves everywhere you look. A few months later, RS/Smokey/Kej/some other SM runner submits a RBO run done on the console, in 1:04. Now, some people would look at the 16-minute difference and immediately consider the 0:48 superior. I know that I (and most m2k2-ers and SCU-ers) would watch both runs, and consider them separately, instead of trying to judge which is better. Kind of like how you can't say kip's 1:04 any% is better than sparky's 1:28 100% - any% and 100% are different run categories. I think of console runs and "TAS" runs in the same way.
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Again, best of luck with your endeavor, Saturn. You'll find many enthusiastic people waiting to see how it turns out.

Just wanted to make one thing clear, since after reading some of my previous posts I came across sounding like a bit of a console demagogue - I am actually [i]quite[/i] looking forward to seeing Saturn's completed RBO run.  It should be a lot of fun to watch.  I think this is a GREAT use of "TAS" technology... this is a category for which there is, at the moment, no recorded console run.  This will show what is theoretically possible to achieve.  Granted that any console player will make more mistakes and achieve a slower final time, of course, but I think it will encourage console runners to try it out.  (Some may be put off completely, but some will say, "Hey, I can do this.  Let's see how close I can get.")
...
For instace, let's say Saturn turns in a (tool-assisted) RBO run in 0:48.  Jaw-dropping moves everywhere you look.  A few months later, RS/Smokey/Kej/some other SM runner submits a RBO run done on the console, in 1:04.  Now, some people would look at the 16-minute difference and immediately consider the 0:48 superior.  I know that I (and most m2k2-ers and SCU-ers) would watch both runs, and consider them separately, instead of trying to judge which is better.  Kind of like how you can't say kip's 1:04 any% is better than sparky's 1:28 100% - any% and 100% are different run categories.  I think of console runs and "TAS" runs in the same way.
...
Again, best of luck with your endeavor, Saturn.  You'll find many enthusiastic people waiting to see how it turns out.

Ryan Ferneau

2005-12-13 07:04:45 pm

Quote from Maur:

Notice how we are the only ones who really seem to care about the issue? Sure, they've had a few posts over there saying 'heh, we should probably change.' They're saying it because we make it quite apparent that we think the 'TAS' nomenclature sucks. They're talking about it because of the backlash from this side, not because they actually think they should change.

They put their explanation pages up, they label all their videos, they dropped usage of the term 'time-attack.'

See, that's just it. It was annoying enough to have Warp fussing about how we should replace "time attack" with "tool-assisted run". I've had about enough name-changing. Let's just wait until this stuff IS mainstream, and then a popular name will follow.

Red Scarlet

2005-12-13 07:10:03 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Quote from Saturn:

This just can't be a comparison, but I really know how it would feel for you.

However just in case you still wish to try a RBO run yourself (for your own interest to challenge yourself with this) and we will have both runs up some day, I would definitely mention it in bold text in the comments to my run that the viewer shouldn't compare this run with yours for obvious reasons, and will even link to it, this is a promise. And since everyone knows you they will surely enjoy your new run very much if you succed being the first console player who performs a RBO that you can watch. I think everyone agrees with me here.

I have always compared their stuff to mine, and mine to theirs. I lose out every time. Just my mentality.

My truest complaint is about those that say emuvids are for entertainment value..that's why I do my stuff too; entertainment. For some reason it seems like a popular concept is that only emuvids can have entertainment value to them. I disagree with that sentiment wholeheartedly. "Chopped liver?" comes to mind.

Quote from njahnke:

i'll admit i thought it had a chance. should have remembered what scarlet says about those people and not gotten caught up in the idealism.

[quote="Saturn"]This just can't be a comparison, but I really know how it would feel for you.

However just in case you still wish to try a RBO run yourself (for your own interest to challenge yourself with this) and we will have both runs up some day, I would definitely mention it in [b]bold text[/b] in the comments to my run that the viewer shouldn't compare this run with yours for obvious reasons, and will even link to it, this is a promise. And since everyone knows you they will surely enjoy your new run very much if you succed being the first console player who performs a RBO that you can watch. I think everyone agrees with me here.[/quote]

I have always compared their stuff to mine, and mine to theirs.  I lose out every time.  Just my mentality.

My truest complaint is about those that say emuvids are for entertainment value..that's why I do my stuff too; entertainment.  For some reason it seems like a popular concept is that only emuvids can have entertainment value to them.  I disagree with that sentiment wholeheartedly. "Chopped liver?" comes to mind.

[quote="njahnke"]i'll admit i thought it had a chance. should have remembered what scarlet says about those people and not gotten caught up in the idealism.[/quote]

:?:

Ryan Ferneau

2005-12-13 07:19:01 pm

Well, your regular speedruns have obviously lost their entertainment value to you because of your silly comparisons, so why not switch to cheated-up emulator runs? It seems like the obvious answer to your problem.

Red Scarlet

2005-12-13 07:42:34 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

I have no reason to do emuvids. I have no reason to do what they do for x or y game. It doesn't interest me.

My vids lose their entertainment value when someone says "oh I want to watch perfection, regular videos are boring". To me that is a slap in the face. Sorry, it just is to my delicate confidence; that it is seen as inferior/poor quality/not good enough. I make the comparisons due to others already doing so.

Andrew Mills

2005-12-13 07:43:18 pm

Strategy Guide Writer

Quote from Ryan Ferneau:

Well, your regular speedruns have obviously lost their entertainment value to you because of your silly comparisons, so why not switch to cheated-up emulator runs? It seems like the obvious answer to your problem.

Is it just me, or is that one of the daftest things I've heard in a long while? :|

Chanoire

2005-12-13 07:49:46 pm

@ Ryan: Because she doesn't play games to do 10,000 rerecords under nonstandard conditions? Why the hell should someone who's become synonymous with speedrun for the skill she shows on the fly and in realtime switch to an arena where people with totally different resources can do a mock-up of the same stuff? It doesn't mean anything to survive that boss fight or make that shinespark when you can redo every damn frame with no adrenaline and no surprises. I can't imagine why you'd expect someone to switch from being the best in her field (even if retired) to just another TASer when there are people with far more experience and patience doing this who don't need her reflexes and skill and whatnot. And the thing which makes your suggestion seem the most ludicrous is that you know Joe Idiot would view a TAS of hers and conclude that all her stuff was faked and wonder why she sucked at editing those earlier ones, or say that her record must've been faked too, or whatever. Because if there's a chance that someone will read just enough to get the completely wrong idea, then it will happen.

@Scarlet: Thing is, not everyone is saying that; there are clearly many, many people who do not find non-TAS runs "boring" (witness the entire clientele of SDA, for example). But I know that arguing with a feeling is pretty much pointless, even though I obviously can't help doing it. Sorry for the repetition.

@ Ryan: Because she doesn't play games to do 10,000 rerecords under nonstandard conditions?  Why the hell should someone who's become synonymous with speedrun for the skill she shows on the fly and in realtime switch to an arena where people with totally different resources can do a mock-up of the same stuff?  It doesn't mean anything to survive that boss fight or make that shinespark when you can redo every damn frame with no adrenaline and no surprises.  I can't imagine why you'd expect someone to switch from being the best in her field (even if retired) to just another TASer when there are people with far more experience and patience doing this who don't need her reflexes and skill and whatnot.  And the thing which makes your suggestion seem the most ludicrous is that you [i]know[/i] Joe Idiot would view a TAS of hers and conclude that all her stuff was faked and wonder why she sucked at editing those earlier ones, or say that her record must've been faked too, or whatever.  Because if there's a chance that someone will read just enough to get the completely wrong idea, then it will happen.

@Scarlet:  Thing is, not everyone is saying that; there are clearly many, many people who do not find non-TAS runs "boring" (witness the entire clientele of SDA, for example).  But I know that arguing with a feeling is pretty much pointless, even though I obviously can't help doing it.  Sorry for the repetition.

Yoshi348

2005-12-13 07:50:21 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

It ain't just you.

I ought to be selling those magnets that help you get things.