Super Metroid - Reverse Boss Order / Suitless Cyborg Run

2005-12-13 07:59:09 pm

Quote from Chanoire:

It doesn't mean anything to survive that boss fight or make that shinespark when you can redo every damn frame with no adrenaline and no surprises.

It means everything if you can get it perfect! There will be surprises for the viewer when you find a new or better way to do something.

Quote from Chanoire:

And the thing which makes your suggestion seem the most ludicrous is that you know Joe Idiot would view a TAS of hers and conclude that all her stuff was faked and wonder why she sucked at editing those earlier ones, or say that her record must've been faked too, or whatever. Because if there's a chance that someone will read just enough to get the completely wrong idea, then it will happen.

And why do we care what Joe Idiot thinks?

nate

2005-12-13 07:59:39 pm

giga knight is an emu raper.

arkarian

2005-12-13 08:11:39 pm

red chamber dream

Quote from Ryan Ferneau:

And why do we care what Joe Idiot thinks?

Because he's one of the people who'd be watching the run? Seriously, Ryan Ferneau, stop these ludicrous statements.

Ryan Ferneau

2005-12-13 08:15:57 pm

Well I think it's ludicrous to worry about people thinking the wrong thing because they made absolutely no effort to find out what it was they were looking at. You can't spend your life running around correcting people. You just have to do what you want to do and let people think what they want to.

Red Scarlet

2005-12-13 08:17:34 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

I think Chanoire is stretching a bit with her comments at me.

Ryan: I want to do it as good as I can; mentally perfect. good enough. When Joe Idiot says that I obviously wasn't and/or make boring videos because they aren't "what they could be/not perfect", it makes me wonder why bother.

Nice attempt, Saber, but like it has been said, there is too much animosity from some people on both sides that are preventing meaningful discussion between both groups. Of which I am probably guilty of somewhat, as well. Which is one reason I refuse to call emuvids/the guys that do them what Nate goes with (other is probably similar to Chanoire's reasoning).

Ryan Ferneau

2005-12-13 08:22:24 pm

So stop worrying about Joe Idiot and make videos for the non-idiots.

Yoshi348

2005-12-13 08:24:02 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Ryan. Some arguments you just can't win. Especially when you're trying to argue about someone else's values.

Red Scarlet

2005-12-13 08:25:02 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

The non-idiots are who I do/did make them for. Joe Idiot creates uninformed and derogatory statements and they multiply. Each one just drives the point more.

Saturn

2005-12-13 08:33:26 pm

Scarlet is a high-quality speedrunner and its fully understandable she has no interest for TAS-ing.

Quote from Red Scarlet:

I have always compared their stuff to mine, and mine to theirs. I lose out every time. Just my mentality.

This is exactly the mentality that is required (along with the skills) in order to make such runs on console. No matter how many advances a TAS has you always try to compete to them with human skills. This is what I really respect on you. But honestly, despite your fighting spirit, saying "I lose to a TAS" is just not suitable, really not.

Quote from Red Scarlet:

My truest complaint is about those that say emuvids are for entertainment value..that's why I do my stuff too; entertainment. For some reason it seems like a popular concept is that only emuvids can have entertainment value to them. I disagree with that sentiment wholeheartedly. "Chopped liver?" comes to mind.

I too. I aim for entertainment (this is just the main goal in a TAS) but I never said or will say console runs are less impressive. For me they are far more interesting to watch simply because I can learn some techs of them to try pulling them off myself in real-time later. Only because of your and Smokeys vid I could finally improve myself to a 0:44 any% skillbased realtime run.

Scarlet is a high-quality speedrunner and its fully understandable she has no interest for TAS-ing.

[quote="Red Scarlet"]I have always compared their stuff to mine, and mine to theirs. I lose out every time. Just my mentality.[/quote]
This is exactly the mentality that is required (along with the skills) in order to make such runs on console. No matter how many advances a TAS has you always try to compete to them with human skills. This is what I really respect on you. But honestly, despite your fighting spirit, saying "I lose to a TAS" is just not suitable, really not.

[quote="Red Scarlet"]My truest complaint is about those that say emuvids are for entertainment value..that's why I do my stuff too; entertainment. For some reason it seems like a popular concept is that only emuvids can have entertainment value to them. I disagree with that sentiment wholeheartedly. "Chopped liver?" comes to mind.[/quote] I too. I aim for entertainment (this is just the main goal in a TAS) but I never said or will say console runs are less impressive. For me they are far more interesting to watch simply because I can learn some techs of them to try pulling them off myself in real-time later. Only because of your and Smokeys vid I could finally improve myself to a 0:44 any% skillbased realtime run.

Ryan Ferneau

2005-12-13 08:38:57 pm

Well, what I should have said is that you can't spend your life running around correcting people unless you're Raiu on GameFAQs. That guy rushes to the scene of a minor factual inaccuracy like nobody's business!

RT-55J

2005-12-13 08:57:26 pm

Armor Guardian

Ryan has successfully turned me from :( to :)

Also, before you argue yourselves to death against him, read this:

Quote from Ryan F. @ Bisqwit's:

You can see I'm not very good at debating. My usual tactic is to come up with increasingly facetious arguments until everybody gets annoyed and drops the subject.

Yoshi348

2005-12-13 08:58:16 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

But that's just fucking annoying everyone. It's not something to laud.

spineshark

2005-12-13 09:03:51 pm

in the name of justice!

Quote from Red Scarlet:

My truest complaint is about those that say emuvids are for entertainment value..that's why I do my stuff too; entertainment. For some reason it seems like a popular concept is that only emuvids can have entertainment value to them. I disagree with that sentiment wholeheartedly.
*other post*
My vids lose their entertainment value when someone says "oh I want to watch perfection, regular videos are boring". To me that is a slap in the face. Sorry, it just is to my delicate confidence; that it is seen as inferior/poor quality/not good enough. I make the comparisons due to others already doing so.

Go tact, that I had no shot in hell of being able to take advantage of! I'm not just copying RS, I almost said this, but it wasn't pretty at all.

MAYBE I shouldn't even be complaining...after all, my run is in no threat of being quarked, but I'm still doing this because *cough* people have expressed interest in watching the game being run.

I applaud all the people who have tried to take this issue to the forefront - nate is right, this is not the last thing that is going to mess with our heads as we try to bring growth (and merit) to speed running. Seriously, things are NOT going to get better with bisqwit's on their own...as more powerful emulation becomes available these issues will only grow larger in scale. I'm not even sure how to say how I've felt over the past couple days as I've seen this stuff happening. For all of the ridiculous videos, (relatively) reputable sources (/me snickers at EGM) still seem a lot more interested in real speed runs.

If anybody from bisqwit's happens to be reading this, DECLARATIONS OF IMMATURITY ARE IMMATURE

[quote="Red Scarlet"]My truest complaint is about those that say emuvids are for entertainment value..that's why I do my stuff too; entertainment. For some reason it seems like a popular concept is that only emuvids can have entertainment value to them. I disagree with that sentiment wholeheartedly.
*other post*
My vids lose their entertainment value when someone says "oh I want to watch perfection, regular videos are boring".  To me that is a slap in the face.  Sorry, it just is to my delicate confidence; that it is seen as inferior/poor quality/[b]not good enough[/b].  I make the comparisons due to others already doing so.[/quote]
Go tact, that I had no shot in hell of being able to take advantage of!  I'm not [i]just[/i] copying RS, I almost said this, but it wasn't pretty at all.

MAYBE I shouldn't even be complaining...after all, my run is in no threat  of being quarked, but I'm still doing this because *cough* people have expressed interest in watching the game being run.

I applaud all the people who have tried to take this issue to the forefront - nate is right, this is not the last thing that is going to mess with our heads as we try to bring growth (and merit) to speed running.  Seriously, things are NOT going to get better with bisqwit's on their own...as more powerful emulation becomes available these issues will only grow larger in scale.  I'm not even sure how to say how I've felt over the past couple days as I've seen this stuff happening.  For all of the ridiculous videos, (relatively) reputable sources (/me snickers at EGM) still seem a lot more interested in real speed runs.

If anybody from bisqwit's happens to be reading this, [url=http://pixelcomic.net/217.shtml]DECLARATIONS OF IMMATURITY ARE IMMATURE[/url]

Hypnotix

2005-12-13 09:10:15 pm

When he does this, it will be mere perfection and fun to watch. Cool to see new things happening to a ~11 year old game! :)

This game was well designed (or bad) enough to sequence skip and still have fun with it :P

Chanoire

2005-12-13 09:23:33 pm

Quote from Red Scarlet:

I think Chanoire is stretching a bit with her comments at me.

At you, or about you?

Apologies if I seemed to be putting words in your mouth with my reply to Ryan. I was mainly getting at the total incongruity of the suggestion rather than trying to imply a specific attitude of yours. I do think you underestimate your stature...though this is certainly colored by the fact that the first time I heard of speedrunning at all was a thread expressing extreme dismay that you'd stopped running Super Metroid, with many equally dismayed responses.

Hypnotix: you say that as if new things can only happen with an emu run, or as if a run of this type had never been tried before. And I don't think it's in doubt that it was good design that gave the game its flexibility, even if its complexity resulted in oversights to stretch it even further.

Radix

2005-12-13 10:46:57 pm

This is all pointless bickering compared to what we should really be worried about.

When you record yourself playing a video game, who owns it?

Is g4 tv right? Can they really air our speed runs with no credit and it's legal?

Is this guy who responded to my question being a prick or telling the flat out truth?

Let it be public record that if it's proven that a run can't be protected as copyright for the runner's name, that I'm quitting SDA.

Maur

2005-12-13 10:57:51 pm

Yeah, I think it's about time to get a free consultation with a copyright lawyer or something.

Ryan Ferneau

2005-12-13 10:59:51 pm

Are you copyrighting someone's playthrough of a game or a recording of someone's playthrough of a game?

GSGold

2005-12-13 11:12:12 pm

Hey look! It's this massive dramabomb again!

Wow, good thing we can't just leave each other alone! I mean, that'd be the sensible thing to do, to just mind their own business and not fret over what the other side is doing!

Chanoire

2005-12-13 11:19:42 pm

Quote from Radix:

Is this guy who responded to my question being a prick or telling the flat out truth?

Would need more than a layman to determine flat-out truth, but the "suffice it to say your opinion isn't relevant" puts him on the prick side of the ledger in my book. Opinions are relevant; that's what causes lawsuits -- someone's of the opinion that they've been wronged. And is he seriously saying that playing the game is using the game without permission? And, of course, he's not answering the question from the viewpoint of can other people use your videos without permission, he's approaching it from the viewpoint of selling for profit -- you infringing someone else's rights, not someone else infringing yours.

spineshark

2005-12-14 12:23:20 am

in the name of justice!

Quote from GSGold:

Hey look! It's this massive dramabomb again!

Wow, good thing we can't just leave each other alone! I mean, that'd be the sensible thing to do, to just mind their own business and not fret over what the other side is doing!

Okay, I will bring YOU the knife and you can cut the internet into all its pieces: eBay, TAS, m2k2sda, TG, stupid band fan forums, XBox Live, Nintendo Wifi, and each and every individual Sony online game. Good luck! Cause you know it's ALWAYS better to just look away from the problems than work to solve them!

I was actually really shocked when marsh's Diablo II speed run dredged up a few of my friends from a far distant forum about said game.

I'm going to ask my brother if he's learned anything that pertains to this when he gets home from law school this weekend...I mean, I would hate to know what sort of legal tangle Books on Tape (coming 2007: Books on Blu-Ray!) cause.

Ryan Ferneau

2005-12-14 12:57:47 am

I don't even see why there are problems in the first place...

nate

2005-12-14 12:59:26 am

s.shark, we would be grateful for any help.

Red Scarlet

2005-12-14 01:10:16 am

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Quote from Saturn:

This is exactly the mentality that is required (along with the skills) in order to make such runs on console. No matter how many advances a TAS has you always try to compete to them with human skills. This is what I really respect on you. But honestly, despite your fighting spirit, saying "I lose to a TAS" is just not suitable, really not.

..except that there weren't any TAS videos when I had finished mine..and since I do compare them I lose out. But I am not a part of "can't beat em, join em!" crew. Nor do I watch them to learn tricks/routes.

Chanoire: about. Don't put me on a pedestal that I can't even see the top of.

Trebor

2005-12-14 03:55:28 am

I know I'm not a lawyer, and I also know that anything that starts out with a phrase like that usually carries no merit, but I offer an example.

Say I were to go out and purchase Microsoft Word, and then use it to produce a Word document. Now, clearly I own all the rights to the information contained in this document. Why wouldn't a speed run be the same thing? If I purchase a game from a company, then proceed to produce a vid using the game, shouldn't I own the rights to the information contained in that vid, i.e. the moves, route, etc. that are contained in it? Sure, the game itself is copyrighted, but I'm not distributing the game.

I suppose you could argue against this rather sucessfully, as it's not quite the same thing, but still you get the point.

EDIT: Now that I reread that guy's response again, it appears as if he's assuming the wronged party is the game company (not you) because you're distributing a vid of their game. Since the game company isn't involved in this would-be lawsuit at all, his arguments are all off-base. Though, being the dick that he is, I wouldn't even post another rephrased question there.

At the very least, you could argue that since you did all the work on the vid (capturing and all that other jazz nate does), they can't use your work without permission. You may not get to use it either because of the sketchy game copyright issue, but you definitely know G4 TV won't be able to.

I know I'm not a lawyer, and I also know that anything that starts out with a phrase like that usually carries no merit, but I offer an example.

Say I were to go out and purchase Microsoft Word, and then use it to produce a Word document.  Now, clearly I own all the rights to the information contained in this document.  Why wouldn't a speed run be the same thing?  If I purchase a game from a company, then proceed to produce a vid using the game, shouldn't I own the rights to the information contained in that vid, i.e. the moves, route, etc. that are contained in it?  Sure, the game itself is copyrighted, but I'm not distributing the game.

I suppose you could argue against this rather sucessfully, as it's not [i]quite[/i] the same thing, but still you get the point.

EDIT:  Now that I reread that guy's response again, it appears as if he's assuming the wronged party is the game company (not you) because you're distributing a vid of their game.  Since the game company isn't involved in this would-be lawsuit at all, his arguments are all off-base.  Though, being the dick that he is, I wouldn't even post another rephrased question there.

At the very least, you could argue that since you did all the work on the vid (capturing and all that other jazz nate does), they can't use your work without permission.  You may not get to use it either because of the sketchy game copyright issue, but you definitely know G4 TV won't be able to.