Super Metroid - Reverse Boss Order / Suitless Cyborg Run

2005-12-12 07:57:49 pm

Strategy Guide Writer

I'd just like to say Saturn that your teaser clip looked mental! Shocked

I have added this clip to my server, so you also have an extra mirror to use now. Also, I'll be very happy to host the final run along with all the other TAS's that I have just put up on my server. :D Good luck on the run and let me know as soon as you have it finished and converted as a DivX .avi file and I'll stick it online for you. :D

http://www.zeromission.co.uk/tas/Super_Metroid_-_Speed_Demos.avi

All I'll say about the whole TAS vs non-TAS runs is that I fully appreciate and enjoy BOTH types of runs.

Chanoire

2005-12-12 08:58:07 pm

Quote from Red Scarlet:

If they were both released, the emuvid one would undoubtedly get more viewings and discussion than the 'needs to be improved' console one, IMO.

I wondered if there were any way to get a data sample on this question and took a look at archive.org's SM runs. There are a bunch of caveats and all about the soundness of the data considering things like how long it's been up, where else it's posted, and multiple versions of the same thing (later, higher-quality captures show up as separate items), but the numbers still suggest a general trend. The numbers in parentheses are the number of downloads and the batting average as shown on the run's actual page, not the search results page (which had lower dl numbers)

100% 0:55 - 'Red Scarlet' - (4,702 / 36%)
100% 1:00 - 'Red Scarlet' - (487 / 20%)
NBMB run, 72% items - 'Red Scarlet' - (1,098 / 39%)
NBMB run, 72% items - 'Red Scarlet' (recapture) - (2,515 / 26%)

100% 0:58 - 'Smokey' - (722 / 26%)
100% 0:56 - 'Smokey' - (731 / 24%)
Glitchless 100% 1:05 - 'smokey' - (176 / 21%)
Single-segment 0:38 - 'Smokey' - (355 / 19%)
Single-segment 0:38 - 'Smokey' (recapture) - (828 / 37%)
0:36 - 'Smokey' - (714 / 26%)
0:36 - 'Smokey' (recapture) - (2,997 / 39%)
14% 1:18 - 'smokey' - (360 / 25%)

100% (47:04 - Emulator version) - 'Jecy' - (1,014 / 28%)
14% 35:00 (Japan/US version, emulated run) - Terimakasih - (87 / 14%)
00:27 (Japan/USA version, emulated run) -Terimakasih - (1,055 / 41%)
48:10 (Japan/USA version, emulated run) - Terimakashi - (121 / 18%)
No Murderbeam - 00:27 (Japan/USA version, emulated speedrun) - Terimakasih - (230 / 27%)

The comparatively low numbers of the 1:00 are presumably due to the "what was I thinking?!" time period. I don't know if there's any way to find out what the flow was like after the emu runs started being posted, and of course they were downloaded elsewhere. But still.

On another note...who would you be doing this for? Your first post, pre-edit, suggests it's for you. Then you saw the artificial polish and concluded that no one would care about a console one; evidently this nullified the possibility of making you enjoy the game again. Despite the statements of people here including Saturn you insist that a console one could never compete because people who don't know the difference wouldn't think yours is as good. But why care about what people outside the communities who do know (and yes, that includes the TAS one) think? They're less likely to appreciate any of the runs much for what they really are. Do it for yourself and perhaps your community...or don't, if the very existence of this has again killed any desire to try. But not because of a conviction that you'll lose some popularity contest among the ignorant.

[quote="Red Scarlet"]If they were both released, the emuvid one would undoubtedly get more viewings and discussion than the 'needs to be improved' console one, IMO.[/quote]
I wondered if there were any way to get a data sample on this question and took a look at archive.org's SM runs.  There are a bunch of caveats and all about the soundness of the data considering things like how long it's been up, where else it's posted, and multiple versions of the same thing (later, higher-quality captures show up as separate items), but the numbers still suggest a general trend.  The numbers in parentheses are the number of downloads and the batting average as shown on the run's actual page, not the search results page (which had lower dl numbers)

100% 0:55 - 'Red Scarlet' - (4,702 / 36%)
100% 1:00 - 'Red Scarlet' - (487 / 20%)
NBMB run, 72% items - 'Red Scarlet' - (1,098 / 39%)
NBMB run, 72% items - 'Red Scarlet' (recapture) - (2,515 / 26%)

100% 0:58 - 'Smokey' - (722 / 26%)
100% 0:56 - 'Smokey' - (731 / 24%)
Glitchless 100% 1:05 - 'smokey' - (176 / 21%)
Single-segment 0:38 - 'Smokey' - (355 / 19%)
Single-segment 0:38 - 'Smokey' (recapture) - (828 / 37%)
0:36 - 'Smokey' - (714 / 26%)
0:36 - 'Smokey' (recapture) - (2,997 / 39%)
14% 1:18 - 'smokey' -  (360 / 25%)

100% (47:04 - Emulator version) - 'Jecy' - (1,014 / 28%)
14% 35:00 (Japan/US version, emulated run) -  Terimakasih - (87 / 14%)
00:27 (Japan/USA version, emulated run) -Terimakasih - (1,055 / 41%)
48:10 (Japan/USA version, emulated run) - Terimakashi - (121 / 18%)
No Murderbeam - 00:27 (Japan/USA version, emulated speedrun) - Terimakasih - (230 / 27%)

The comparatively low numbers of the 1:00 are presumably due to the "what was I thinking?!" time period.  I don't know if there's any way to find out what the flow was like after the emu runs started being posted, and of course they were downloaded elsewhere.  But still.

On another note...who would you be doing this for?  Your first post, pre-edit, suggests it's for you.  Then you saw the artificial polish and concluded that no one would care about a console one; evidently this nullified the possibility of making you enjoy the game again.  Despite the statements of people here including Saturn you insist that a console one could never compete because people who don't know the difference wouldn't think yours is as good.  But why care about what people outside the communities who do know (and yes, that includes the TAS one) think?  They're less likely to appreciate [i]any[/i] of the runs much for what they really are.  Do it for yourself and perhaps your community...or don't, if the very existence of this has again killed any desire to try.  But not because of a conviction that you'll lose some popularity contest among the ignorant.

nate

2005-12-12 10:02:26 pm

Quote from Saturn:

Now I know at least why Nate insists to disrespect me by intentionaly calling my run a rape instead of a tool assisted speedrun. Maybe its just too good and impresses too much so someone might get jealous, who knows.

what pray tell would someone be jealous of? like being jealous of an ant after you crush it because it was able to inflict pain on you: there's never any doubt in your mind which of you was superior, but it still hurts.

Quote from Daniel, Lord Bahamut:

When I said "yours" I meant it in a physical possession sense--you pay for the hosting and bandwidth. It's cool and all to say m2k2 belongs to all of us, but ultimately your word is law.

i liken myself to the christian god, actually - after he created the world by giving man abundant natural resources and the will to use them, he stepped back and allowed man to do what he wanted. to me this sounded like an optimal strategy - i'm always right (because i never make any decisions), and people worship me (because they see me as having given them everything).

of course, this is not precisely accurate (i worship you far more than you worship me), but close enough for government work.

Quote from Daniel, Lord Bahamut:

Sometimes a trick can only be done via emulator (see the 0% Fusion thread). Does that make it any less cool?

yes. there's no reason to put bob in the fusion section if no one can really do it. go annihilating the site's reputation with a single video.

ironically, emus would suddenly look really good around here if someone did it on a game boy. that would be the whole 'useful' thing mike uyama over at sda is always talking about.

[quote="Saturn"]Now I know at least why Nate insists to disrespect me by intentionaly calling my run a rape instead of a tool assisted speedrun. Maybe its just too good and impresses too much so someone might get jealous, who knows.[/quote]
what pray tell would someone be jealous of? like being jealous of an ant after you crush it because it was able to inflict pain on you: there's never any doubt in your mind which of you was superior, but it still hurts.

[quote="Daniel, Lord Bahamut"]When I said "yours" I meant it in a physical possession sense--you pay for the hosting and bandwidth. It's cool and all to say m2k2 belongs to all of us, but ultimately your word is law.[/quote]
i liken myself to the christian god, actually - after he created the world by giving man abundant natural resources and the will to use them, he stepped back and allowed man to do what he wanted. to me this sounded like an optimal strategy - i'm always right (because i never make any decisions), and people worship me (because they see me as having given them everything).

of course, this is not precisely accurate (i worship you far more than you worship me), but close enough for government work.

[quote="Daniel, Lord Bahamut"]Sometimes a trick can only be done via emulator (see the 0% Fusion thread). Does that make it any less cool?[/quote]
yes. there's no reason to put [url=http://www.metroid2002.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2328]bob[/url] in the fusion section if no one can really do it. go annihilating the site's reputation with a single video.

ironically, emus would suddenly look really good around here if someone did it on a game boy. that would be the whole 'useful' thing mike uyama over at sda is always talking about.

Red Scarlet

2005-12-12 10:11:07 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Archive.org is not a good place to get # of times dled numbers for emuvids; bisqwit's site/torrent stats (if there are any) is probably where more come from.

Quote from Chanoire:

On another note...who would you be doing this for? Your first post, pre-edit, suggests it's for you. Then you saw the artificial polish and concluded that no one would care about a console one; evidently this nullified the possibility of making you enjoy the game again.

Yeah, I thought hm that could be a neat idea to put something up and maybe enjoy the game again. Then I watched what Saturn is capable of and quite literally said to myself "haha, well fuck that".

Quote from Chanoire:

Despite the statements of people here including Saturn you insist that a console one could never compete because people who don't know the difference wouldn't think yours is as good. But why care about what people outside the communities who do know (and yes, that includes the TAS one) think?

I know if I was random person and went to archive.org and saw
Reverse Boss Order TAS 00:29

and

Reverse Boss Order run 01:24

I'd get the 00:29.

Quote from Chanoire:

They're less likely to appreciate any of the runs much for what they really are. Do it for yourself and perhaps your community...or don't, if the very existence of this has again killed any desire to try. But not because of a conviction that you'll lose some popularity contest among the ignorant.

Eventually getting around and doing a halfass one (I still don't see how/why people think I can even come close to what I did in my NBMB videos anymore) is nothing more than a 'me-too' to me when compared to what Saturn has planned to do in his version. Just that little clip gave me a sinking feeling, the 47:04 is going to be destroyed by quite a bit sooner or later. It was a fun idea until I saw just how advanced Saturn's video is likely going to be.

I am in no way trying to suggest that Saturn not do what he is working on. I feel an attempt from me would very much be half-ass and shoddy in comparison.

Archive.org is not a good place to get # of times dled numbers for emuvids; bisqwit's site/torrent stats (if there are any) is probably where more come from.

[quote="Chanoire"]On another note...who would you be doing this for?  Your first post, pre-edit, suggests it's for you.  Then you saw the artificial polish and concluded that no one would care about a console one; evidently this nullified the possibility of making you enjoy the game again.[/quote]

Yeah, I thought hm that could be a neat idea to put something up and maybe enjoy the game again.  Then I watched what Saturn is capable of and quite literally said to myself "haha, well fuck that".

[quote="Chanoire"]Despite the statements of people here including Saturn you insist that a console one could never compete because people who don't know the difference wouldn't think yours is as good.  But why care about what people outside the communities who do know (and yes, that includes the TAS one) think?[/quote]

I know if I was random person and went to archive.org and saw 
Reverse Boss Order TAS 00:29

and

Reverse Boss Order run 01:24

I'd get the 00:29.

[quote="Chanoire"]They're less likely to appreciate [i]any[/i] of the runs much for what they really are.  Do it for yourself and perhaps your community...or don't, if the very existence of this has again killed any desire to try.  But not because of a conviction that you'll lose some popularity contest among the ignorant.[/quote]

Eventually getting around and doing a halfass one (I still don't see how/why people think I can even come close to what I did in my NBMB videos anymore) is nothing more than a 'me-too' to me when compared to what Saturn has planned to do in his version.  Just that little clip gave me a sinking feeling, the 47:04 is going to be destroyed by quite a bit sooner or later.  It was a fun idea until I saw just how advanced Saturn's video is likely going to be.

I am in no way trying to suggest that Saturn not do what he is working on.  I feel an attempt from me would very much be half-ass and shoddy in comparison.

Ryan Ferneau

2005-12-12 11:55:27 pm

Then why don't you make an emulator run?

Red Scarlet

2005-12-13 12:24:51 am

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

No interest.

The only one I did do was to see if something was possible or not, and to record it as a demonstration that it could probably be done.

SABERinBLUE

2005-12-13 05:56:45 am

Cook of the Sea

So I e-mailed bisqwit to get his take. If he digs then I'll put up a thread. And then what happens is a bunch of people here post over there to show m2k2's support for the idea.

If, that is, the m2k2 guys here support it.

nate

2005-12-13 09:55:33 am

imo we should ... if it turns out that the new term is clearer to newbs than tas, then we would do well to have pushed it.

DominicanZero

2005-12-13 10:41:41 am

直死の魔眼使い

So what will we end up with? Besides, didn't we already agree on denominating emuraped runs as "quarks"? o_O

Somebody please clear this out. I'm confuzzled. >_>

Yoshi348

2005-12-13 11:57:04 am

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

That never caught on. Too... geeky, I guess. The only people who really used it were Saber (who made it up... right?) and Zeke (who runs a freaking website on Star Trek). Plus that was just us, not them.

Oh, and if that works Saber, TSA will huggle you. That's right. Huggle.

SABERinBLUE

2005-12-13 01:01:18 pm

Cook of the Sea

Hehe yeah, I invented "quark". And I totally <3 the guys who still use it, but I think this is better.

And bisqwit digs, or at least doesn't anti-dig to the point where he doesn't think it's merits some table time.

So I'ma post that thread up on bisqwit.ifi.fi/nesvideos/forum at some point today.

EDIT: http://bisqwit.iki.fi/nesvideos/forum/viewtopic.php?p=63702#63702

Ryan Ferneau

2005-12-13 01:35:48 pm

Quote from Red Scarlet:

No interest.

The only one I did do was to see if something was possible or not, and to record it as a demonstration that it could probably be done.

Maybe you should form a lack-of-interest group to protest!

Yoshi348

2005-12-13 02:50:09 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

I think I remember the last time you were here you also needed to be hit over the head with a cluebat.

Stupidity is universal.

Red Scarlet

2005-12-13 03:05:06 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Hm, I don't get a couple of the replies that were said there (like some of what Omega said). Then the one guy that says they are never disparaging, then says we 'limit' ourselves to not doing the stuff they do. Question

Ekarderif

2005-12-13 03:07:38 pm

We have our Nate. They have their Omega. You wonder why society can't coexist?

Izo

2005-12-13 03:10:25 pm

soaking through

TRH's antics weren't exactly helpful.

Saturn

2005-12-13 03:12:54 pm

Quote from Andrew Mills:

I'd just like to say Saturn that your teaser clip looked mental! Shocked

I have added this clip to my server, so you also have an extra mirror to use now. Also, I'll be very happy to host the final run along with all the other TAS's that I have just put up on my server. :D Good luck on the run and let me know as soon as you have it finished and converted as a DivX .avi file and I'll stick it online for you. :D

http://www.zeromission.co.uk/tas/Super_Metroid_-_Speed_Demos.avi

Thank you, I'm glad you appreciate my very hard work on it. The complete AVI will be available at Bisqwits site and I will tell you when it's done.

Quote from Andrew Mills:

All I'll say about the whole TAS vs non-TAS runs is that I fully appreciate and enjoy BOTH types of runs.

This is a healthy attitude which should be a example for everyone who can't differ a TAS from a console run. This are 2 different worlds.

Quote from Red Scarlet:

I am in no way trying to suggest that Saturn not do what he is working on. I feel an attempt from me would very much be half-ass and shoddy in comparison.

This just can't be a comparison, but I really know how it would feel for you.

However just in case you still wish to try a RBO run yourself (for your own interest to challenge yourself with this) and we will have both runs up some day, I would definitely mention it in bold text in the comments to my run that the viewer shouldn't compare this run with yours for obvious reasons, and will even link to it, this is a promise. And since everyone knows you they will surely enjoy your new run very much if you succed being the first console player who performs a RBO that you can watch. I think everyone agrees with me here.

Nate:
I really don't like your term thinking how much work I put in my run (which you probably will never understand until you try it yourself), so please don't be so unfair and let me call my run like I want to. My purpose of creating this topic wasn't to "hurt" (like you mentioned) someone for heavens sake, but to only inform about this run and give a small demo to entertain since this is a Metroid Forum where everyone knows this game.

This is definitely my last try. If you can't (or don't want to) understand me do what you want. I still hope the members here will enjoy the further demos.

[quote="Andrew Mills"]I'd just like to say Saturn that your teaser clip looked mental!  :shock: I have added this clip to my server, so you also have an extra mirror to use now. Also, I'll be very happy to host the final run along with all the other TAS's that I have just put up on my server. :D Good luck on the run and let me know as soon as you have it finished and converted as a DivX .avi file and I'll stick it online for you. :D

http://www.zeromission.co.uk/tas/Super_Metroid_-_Speed_Demos.avi[/quote]
Thank you, I'm glad you appreciate my very hard work on it. The complete AVI will be available at Bisqwits site and I will tell you when it's done.

[quote="Andrew Mills"]All I'll say about the whole TAS vs non-TAS runs is that I fully appreciate and enjoy BOTH types of runs.[/quote]
This is a healthy attitude which should be a example for everyone who can't differ a TAS from a console run. This are 2 different worlds.

[quote="Red Scarlet"]I am in no way trying to suggest that Saturn not do what he is working on. I feel an attempt from me would very much be half-ass and shoddy in [b]comparison[/b].[/quote]
This just can't be a comparison, but I really know how it would feel for you.

However just in case you still wish to try a RBO run yourself (for your own interest to challenge yourself with this) and we will have both runs up some day, I would definitely mention it in [b]bold text[/b] in the comments to my run that the viewer shouldn't compare this run with yours for obvious reasons, and will even link to it, this is a promise. And since everyone knows you they will surely enjoy your new run very much if you succed being the first console player who performs a RBO that you can watch. I think everyone agrees with me here.

Nate:
I really don't like your term thinking how much work I put in my run (which you probably will never understand until you try it yourself), so please don't be so unfair and let me call my run like I want to. My purpose of creating this topic wasn't to "hurt" (like you mentioned) someone for heavens sake, but to only inform about this run and give a small demo to entertain since this is a Metroid Forum where everyone knows this game.

This is definitely my last try. If you can't (or don't want to) understand me do what you want. I still hope the members here will enjoy the further demos.

SABERinBLUE

2005-12-13 03:14:20 pm

Cook of the Sea

Eye phail! Man that did not go well.

Ekarderif

2005-12-13 03:18:32 pm

The problem I have was that the first post was quite misleading. Throughout the whole explanation, there was but one "tool" comment amongst all of the description. I was led to believe that this was in fact a console run, since that is what I assume unless otherwise stated. One glance at the video (which has horrible music imo) did I find the truth, which should have been clearly stated. In the middle of everything is not clearly stated. In the title is. I realize this is an honest mistake (unlike some other people's posts...) so I don't really care too much.

As for TRH, I condone his actions for the sole reason that graveworm is indeed a flickerbatting douchebag that annoyed the hell out of everyone here.

SABER, you did a good job. Their flaming whiplash only shows their intolerance to new ideas (not saying that people here do any better). Hell, I found Bisqwit to be extremely reasonable: someone I might enjoy talking to. Omega on the other hand...

nate

2005-12-13 03:24:58 pm

i'll admit i thought it had a chance. should have remembered what scarlet says about those people and not gotten caught up in the idealism.

saturn, there is only one term here for what you are doing. you will have to use that term in order to avoid confusion. if you don't like it, then i suggest you tell your friends to respond to us next time we offer to drop the term.

Ekarderif

2005-12-13 03:27:01 pm

Thanks Nate. You're just as helpful as Omega.

Izo

2005-12-13 03:29:29 pm

soaking through

Sorry, but I can't sit here and watch you rubbish them. This will probably make me a lot less popular, but I can't see how they were so unreasonable and intolerant, especially in view of Nate's comments in this thread. Yes, they have their arseholes; every forum has its arseholes, and they do pop up at the worst times. They argued their views in a fair way for the most part, and you cannot disrespect them for the views they hold.

EDIT: +what Ekarderif said.

EDIT again: Upon a re-read, that didn't come out quite as coherently as I wanted it to, but you got me a bit pissed off with your blatant supremacism.

Ekarderif

2005-12-13 03:35:47 pm

Me?

Ryan Ferneau

2005-12-13 03:35:49 pm

Hey, Omega's pretty nice. Just because you had to get him angry...

Ekarderif

2005-12-13 03:38:34 pm

Angry by posting a perfectly legitimate series of points to argue why something should be done? Angry because Bisqwit also thought the series of points were legitimate?