New 100% Route

ZX497

2013-07-10 06:35:55 am

Here's a video of the slightly improved method for the early Norfair Super Missile.

Mobiusman

Edit history:

Mobiusman: 2013-07-10 12:01:57 pm

Mobiusman: 2013-07-10 12:01:56 pm

2013-07-10 12:00:48 pm

So what's the deal with early imago? Does it have any upside apart from skipping the refill before tourian? Does it require bottom norfair (6 supers instead of 4)?

If it does require bottom norfair, and it turns out to be faster, how does this impact the rest of the route? Obviously it has even better synergy with HBJ, but assuming a non-HBJ route, it should at least mean we can consistently skip the zipline etank without refilling. Anything else? I want to suggest skipping the etank outside kraid and collecting it with space jump, but that requires two extra door transitions...

edit: actually, what I really want is to get the varia etank with gravity suit. But I think we're still a long way off making that faster :P

Dragonfangs

Edit history:

Dragonfangs: 2013-07-10 12:37:03 pm

Dragonfangs: 2013-07-10 12:32:19 pm

2013-07-10 12:28:49 pm

I just tried early Imago. Getting the shinespark at the start of Ridley without going into the save room is really hard but possible, just going down into the secret tunnel instead is roughly a second slower but a lot easier.
On the basis that we get the Early Super, do Cocoon with only normals and don't do the shinespark at the start of Ridley: Early Imago is less than a second slower for ingame time. However, it removes 4 doors (save room), which turns out to be ~6 seconds of real time. We also get more supers for Ridley, which is fun, and the added benefit of more ammo for Tourian.

I was able to get the 1-round kill with as little as 3 supers, but that is really hard and not consistent at all. 4 Super 1-round is still fairly easy to screw up, 5+ supers is really consistent. We might want to use a super or 2 on cocoon still.

EDIT: If you decide to try this without refilling anywhere (WR route), be very wary of your missile count. I actually had to struggle in the TAS to keep my missiles in check. Compare the 55/4 at the start of Cocoon in the TAS WIP with the WR's 20/6. TAS kills Imago with 13 normals left.

I just tried early Imago. Getting the shinespark at the start of Ridley without going into the save room is really hard but possible, just going down into the secret tunnel instead is roughly a second slower but a lot easier. 
On the basis that we get the Early Super, do Cocoon with only normals and don't do the shinespark at the start of Ridley: Early Imago is less than a second slower for ingame time. However, it removes 4 doors (save room), which turns out to be ~6 seconds of real time. We also get more supers for Ridley, which is fun, and the added benefit of more ammo for Tourian.

I was able to get the 1-round kill with as little as 3 supers, but that is really hard and not consistent at all. 4 Super 1-round is still fairly easy to screw up, 5+ supers is really consistent. We might want to use a super or 2 on cocoon still.

EDIT: If you decide to try this without refilling anywhere (WR route), be very wary of your missile count. I actually had to struggle in the TAS to keep my missiles in check. Compare the 55/4 at the start of Cocoon in the TAS WIP with the WR's 20/6. TAS kills Imago with 13 normals left.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-07-10 12:32:18 pm

2013-07-10 12:31:39 pm

So basically, early imago is negligibly slower in-game on route alone, but it's considerably faster in RTA, and you can have many more supers for tourian without refilling. Seems like it'd be worth it.

Mobiusman

2013-07-10 01:10:09 pm

sounds very interesting, I'll test it tonight (so dragonfangs can watch and tell me how to do it)

ZX497

2013-07-10 01:54:43 pm

Right, so. This is mostly for any%, but there's a couple strats which work for 100% too, so I guess I'll drop it here.

Mobiusman

2013-07-10 06:46:03 pm

the new imago strat (and the cool shinespark after it)

http://www.twitch.tv/mobiusman/c/2556502

ZX497

2013-07-10 06:51:43 pm

Cool new shinespark confirmed almost 2 seconds faster than the TAS *wink wink*

Dragonfangs

2013-07-10 07:11:04 pm

Not with the refill it ain't. Also I'm redoing Ridley as I type this so screw you ;(.

kirbymastah

2013-07-10 07:25:12 pm

Quote from ZX497:

Right, so. This is mostly for any%, but there's a couple strats which work for 100% too, so I guess I'll drop it here.

The second thing you posted, you can do it faster with what I do at 14:10 here -

Dragonfangs

2013-07-10 07:47:30 pm

So this is the Cocoon fight I had when I timed it, so if whatever you do without supers is slower or faster feel free to compensate. And I added a 3 Super 1-Round on Imago just to prove a point (5 supers is not hard guys).

ZX497

Edit history:

ZX497: 2013-07-10 11:36:19 pm

ZX497: 2013-07-10 11:36:04 pm

ZX497: 2013-07-10 11:35:37 pm

2013-07-10 11:34:54 pm

Quote from kirbymastah:

The second thing you posted, you can do it faster with what I do at 14:10 here

I had trouble planting the bomb there on the first jump consistently, but yeah that's a faster way. This trick can also be done twice more in the area where you get the Kraid Unknown Item (your savestate run also seems to do this too).

JaggerG

Edit history:

JaggerG: 2013-07-11 02:26:38 am

2013-07-11 02:18:20 am

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

You both forgot to jump to aim up after unmorphing again.

Can you recharge the shinespark before Imago crashes to use after getting the tank?

spidey-widey

2013-07-11 02:35:18 am

Quote from Dragonfangs:

EDIT: If you decide to try this without refilling anywhere (WR route), be very wary of your missile count. I actually had to struggle in the TAS to keep my missiles in check. Compare the 55/4 at the start of Cocoon in the TAS WIP with the WR's 20/6. TAS kills Imago with 13 normals left.

Yeah, for this reason I don't think early Imago will be viable in that route with no refills. 20/6 is probably actually a little more than what I usually have going into the cocoon fight.

Having enough supers for Tourian without refilling still shouldn't be that bad, though. It's usually possible to get back to 10 supers before reaching Imago. Using five supers on Imago and then grabbing the Imago and Brinstar supers means you'll have 9 supers for Tourian, assuming you don't get any more super drops between Imago and Tourian. That's easily enough to get through the metroids quickly.

ZX497

Edit history:

ZX497: 2013-07-11 03:45:51 am

2013-07-11 03:45:29 am

Well, there is a way to make it viable for AWS route. Get Ice early :P

That'll give you 10 extra missiles, which leaves it only 5 behind the non-AWS routes for missile count. Early Ice was timed to be ~9 seconds slower (route-wise, not counting advantages of the beam), but the way things are looking, early Imago looks like it saves time and a refill, without even factoring in the potential of the early Supers (which is almost negligible).

So yeah, I dunno. With the way everything is with ZM, I wouldn't be surprised if Early Ice + Early Imago turned out to be equally fast to Late Ice + Late Imago for the AWS route :P

spidey-widey

2013-07-11 04:29:30 am

I think early ice would pretty much force you to refill somewhere in Norfair because of that heated room above the ice beam. Even if it doesn't, you'd be cutting it really close with both health and ammo. I tend not to have more than 20/6 going into the cocoon fight; adding 10 more missiles makes that 30/6, which, if I'm counting correctly, leaves you with 4 missiles after finishing Imago. I think that's the exact amount you'll need to get through the rest of Ridley if you don't have the long beam. (Even that figure is somewhat optimistic, actually. You'll probably have already used some of those extra 10 missiles clearing out the ice beam area without long beam and screw attack.)

This all warrants testing, of course. I'm just a bit skeptical at the moment.

ZX497

2013-07-11 05:18:31 am

Oh yeah, that one hot room kind of foils this idea. Not much point going there, if the only real change is you're short on energy instead of being short on missiles.

Dragonfangs

2013-07-11 09:48:15 am

There is no way grabbing Ice Early so you can do Imago early is worth it. Those 9 seconds also don't take into account having Hi-Jump/Screw Attack for the Ice Area.

Mobiusman

2013-07-11 11:42:25 am

dragonfangs, when you said early imago was 6 seconds faster RTA, I assume that was compared to the HBJ route (ie a route already using lower norfair)? Is the comparison substantially different with the upper norfair route?

Dragonfangs

Edit history:

Dragonfangs: 2013-07-11 11:52:28 am

Dragonfangs: 2013-07-11 11:52:11 am

2013-07-11 11:51:39 am

What I said was that Early Imago skips 4 doors, it will do this regardless of which other route you use. I did say that it was less than a second slower (with the new shinespark it's more like a second faster), and that was assuming you use 6 supers on Imago, as long as you can get the 1-round with 4 it should only be 1-2 seconds slower, at worst, than using 6.

The only thing from other routes that affect Early Imago is your ammo count.

Mobiusman

2013-07-11 11:53:10 am

okay, but how much slower RTA is lower norfair than upper norfair? I'm sure you've said that already in this thread, but I can't be bothered to find it!

Dragonfangs

Edit history:

Dragonfangs: 2013-07-11 11:57:11 am

2013-07-11 11:56:04 am

Bottom cleanup is route-wise (not counting the extra ammo) roughly 8 seconds slower for RTA, 5 seconds slower in game. But I think I used in-game strats when timing, and the RTA strat at the early super gains time by having Wave+Long.

Mobiusman

Edit history:

Mobiusman: 2013-07-11 12:01:10 pm

2013-07-11 11:59:05 am

well that's awkward. Lose 8 (or more) seconds, gain 6 seconds, but gain extra supers and the late kraid etank. Not sure that's even worth it.

edit: well, I guess it is TWO extra super tanks for ridley, so maybe it is worth it.

kirbymastah

2013-07-11 12:00:20 pm

the extra supers definitely help a lot. I really like the early super route; they don't help as much if you don't refill, but blowing up ridley and metroids is so satisfying with the extra two supers <3

Mobiusman

2013-07-11 12:06:16 pm

oh wait, is the 6 seconds just the door transitions? does that not take into account getting to skip a refill at long beam? If so, I'm back on board. :P