New 100% Route

Edit history:

Mobiusman: 2013-04-10 01:21:00 pm

2013-04-10 01:20:38 pm

posting this mostly so I don't forget the details: dfangs is timing shaft route vs ice skip, with neither of them getting the bomb jump super, and neither of them skipping the missile in the first large room

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-04-10 02:15:04 pm

2013-04-10 02:14:49 pm

Well we have hi-jump, and IIRC you can reliably shoot 2 missiles per jump for the inner vines (so no need to walljump like in any% :P ).

So not getting the early norfair super, you'll have 4 supers for imago cocoon, three of which you can use. Meaning you only have to use normal missiles on one of the inner vines out of 4. Seems viable and not too much time lost.

How many missiles do each of the vines take?

ZX497

2013-04-10 02:23:28 pm

They're three missiles each. Note that if you use 3 Supers on him, you absolutely have to get a Super drop in Ridley from something.

kirbymastah

2013-04-10 02:59:18 pm

Really? IIRC You only need to use one super before the Ridley fight for a green door...

ZX497

2013-04-10 03:02:38 pm

You need another for a that one Super Missile block, which blocks off a Super Missile expansion. It's in that room with a Missile Tank, and a bunch of those blue orbs.

kirbymastah

2013-04-10 03:04:01 pm

oh geez, you're right about that. Interestingly enough, I've always used 3 supers on imago cocoon and never had a problem with that haha... I guess because there's an owl enemy you can kill right after the first green door

ZX497

Edit history:

ZX497: 2013-04-10 03:10:49 pm

ZX497: 2013-04-10 03:10:46 pm

2013-04-10 03:05:25 pm

Do you actually get the drop from that owl, if you shinespark through him, though? I thought you went right past whatever it dropped.

EDIT:

Yeah, you definitely can't get anything from the owls since you're on a shinespark. I think the area where you've most likely gotten the Super from, is the hot room. It has several sidehoppers, and a couple of owls too.... so, using three supers on Imago Cocoon and just picking one extra from those guys definitely seems like a good plan!

Mobiusman

2013-04-10 03:38:17 pm

Quote from kirbymastah:

Well we have hi-jump, and IIRC you can reliably shoot 2 missiles per jump for the inner vines (so no need to walljump like in any% :P ).

I dunno. If it's easy to get two shots in without walljumping then that's fine. But with a walljump, you should always get two and you have a chance of getting all three.

Quote from ZX497:

I think the area where you've most likely gotten the Super from, is the hot room. It has several sidehoppers, and a couple of owls too.... so, using three supers on Imago Cocoon and just picking one extra from those guys definitely seems like a good plan!

Yup, this is what I do. :)

Dragonfangs

2013-04-10 04:59:22 pm

Okay so after a while of testing, this is what I got:

Late Ice: 1:30 Ingame time, 2:06 Real time. The rounding here isn't that accurate, it's more like 8 and 1/2 second saved compared to the Old Route.

Old Route: 1:39 Ingame time, 2:19 Real time

Ridley Shaft: 1:45 Ingame time, 2:22 Real Time. Slower than normal, as expected. Still not too bad, could be worth it if you want to be cool ;).

kirbymastah

2013-04-10 05:47:06 pm

Quote from ZX497:

Do you actually get the drop from that owl, if you shinespark through him, though? I thought you went right past whatever it dropped.

EDIT:

Yeah, you definitely can't get anything from the owls since you're on a shinespark. I think the area where you've most likely gotten the Super from, is the hot room. It has several sidehoppers, and a couple of owls too.... so, using three supers on Imago Cocoon and just picking one extra from those guys definitely seems like a good plan!

Actually, right after the green door, while shine charged, you can screw attack into the owl then shinespark starting from the spot that the owl is at. That way, when it drops a super missile, you'll grab it during the start-up animation. I've done it twice, I was just too far left in the run i had today :P

kirbymastah

2013-04-10 05:51:32 pm

Also wow, considering the more interesting route is only 6 seconds slower, that's a lot closer than I'd expect. I guess if someone loves space boosts (coughmecough) then they can use the slower route for fun or something?

Dragonfangs

Edit history:

Dragonfangs: 2013-04-10 06:00:13 pm

2013-04-10 05:54:35 pm

It's 15 seconds slower than late Ice though. But it totally is Jagger% material.

You actually lose less time by simply not doing that super until cleanup, that's only ~2 seconds. Just go into the room to charge a speed boost.

Dragondarch

2013-04-10 06:43:41 pm

Huh, first time I've logged in here in...I don't know how long Shhh

Kirby, I'd say nice video, but I'd have to add a "welcome to 2006" to it :P

Anyway, more seriously:
So we know late Ice is worth it.
That missile tank in the big room (where we used to charge a shine after getting Ice)...would it be worth it to skip until cleanup?
Also, did you factor in the extra time it would take to both deal with Imago Cocoon and bomb jumping up from Ridley's room?

Another question, regarding ZX's Brinstar route:
The old route did upper Brinstar after Bombs, then grabbed the missile tank in the shaft before the Hive Room on the way to Kraid. ZX's route skip upper Brinstar for just before Tourian (I believe I saw that it was ~5 seconds faster? Correct me if I'm wrong). I then made a modification to the old route which still does upper Brinstar after Bombs, but leaves that missile tank for just before Tourian, allowing us to break the Bomb block with Screw Attack, followed by Power Gripping into the opening.
http://www.twitch.tv/eastercharitymarathon/b/387002418?t=42m00s
That's the first time I've gotten the descent right, though I think it may be slightly faster to unmorph just after exiting the opening and Power Gripping the ledge, then jumping up from there.
Anyway, I'm curious on the time difference between ZX's route and the modified old route. Main reason is that ZX's route requires some missile luck before Acid Worm, whereas doing upper Brinstar first nets a refill, guaranteeing enough missiles.

Huh, first time I've logged in here in...I don't know how long :listenup_orig:

Kirby, I'd say nice video, but I'd have to add a "welcome to 2006" to it :P

Anyway, more seriously:
So we know late Ice is worth it.
That missile tank in the big room (where we used to charge a shine after getting Ice)...would it be worth it to skip until cleanup?
Also, did you factor in the extra time it would take to both deal with Imago Cocoon and bomb jumping up from Ridley's room?

Another question, regarding ZX's Brinstar route:
The old route did upper Brinstar after Bombs, then grabbed the missile tank in the shaft before the Hive Room on the way to Kraid. ZX's route skip upper Brinstar for just before Tourian (I believe I saw that it was ~5 seconds faster? Correct me if I'm wrong). I then made a modification to the old route which still does upper Brinstar after Bombs, but leaves that missile tank for just before Tourian, allowing us to break the Bomb block with Screw Attack, followed by Power Gripping into the opening.
[url]http://www.twitch.tv/eastercharitymarathon/b/387002418?t=42m00s[/url]
That's the first time I've gotten the descent right, though I think it may be slightly faster to unmorph just after exiting the opening and Power Gripping the ledge, then jumping up from there.
Anyway, I'm curious on the time difference between ZX's route and the modified old route. Main reason is that ZX's route requires some missile luck before Acid Worm, whereas doing upper Brinstar first nets a refill, guaranteeing enough missiles.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-04-10 07:10:11 pm

2013-04-10 07:10:03 pm

Technically another downside to ZX's route is that you also have one less e-tank, which was a problem with old norfair routes. But with late ice beam, you go through one less heated room, meaning you can reliably only have to refill once in norfair at screw attack, rather than refilling at hi-jump and maybe screw attack.

The missile luck for zx's route usually isn't a problem. It's rare for me to not have enough missiles for acid worm, since there are plenty of opportunities for missile drops, especially in the hidden vertical shaft in brinstar before Kraid. At worst, you'll take 2-3 seconds to shoot the two flying dudes after the e-tank before acid worm, which will always gives you missile drops.

Also, New PB - 57:55. Horrible horrible horrible run, but I did learn something - I love the new route, and I really like late ice beam. I just have to practice the cocoon fight without ice beam.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-04-10 07:13:27 pm

kirbymastah: 2013-04-10 07:13:19 pm

kirbymastah: 2013-04-10 07:13:02 pm

2013-04-10 07:12:24 pm

Also, overall, I personally think whichever brinstar cleanup route you want to take just comes down to personal preference. They're so close that you might as well take the route you're better at since you'll probably make fewer mistakes with the route you're more comfy with, making up for the potential time you lose from taking a slower route that's slower by like, 2-3 seconds or something?

~~because screw the IBJs up the turtle shaft after bombs, why are you guys so weird to take that route?~~

Tyjet66

2013-04-10 07:15:44 pm

What'd you say?

Wouldn't it then just be a race to get used to the faster Brinstar route?

I'm extremely excited to hear about this whole new route change. I really hope we see a new WR soon.

Dragonfangs

2013-04-10 07:52:02 pm

Quote from Dragondarch:

That missile tank in the big room (where we used to charge a shine after getting Ice)...would it be worth it to skip until cleanup?

It's not, I don't remember the exact numbers, but I'm sure it's not, in any of the proposed routes.

Quote from Dragondarch:

Also, did you factor in the extra time it would take to both deal with Imago Cocoon and bomb jumping up from Ridley's room?

I did not, but I also didn't factor in time saved by having Hi-Jump and Screw Attack in the Ice Beam area, so it should even out or maybe even give Late Ice more of an advantage.

I timed the Zx route difference too, but I think I derped the math, after some recalculating it's a ~2 second difference. I don't have fancy videos for that, but it's in my archives: http://www.twitch.tv/dragonfangs/b/387419182
It runs from 20:30 to about 53:00, then I do some math that looks really confusing because I think weird.

Slightly More readable notes(One ingame second is 64 frames):

Bombs -> Kraid
Zx Route
Start : 2:50,39 - End : 3:27,63 - Delta: 0:37,24
Old route
Start : 2:50,39 - End : 4:00,29 - Delta: 1:09,54

Ridley -> Tourian
Zx Route
Start : 14:02,02 - End : 15:00,63 - Delta: 0:58,61
Old route
Start : 14:02,02 - End : 14:30,52 - Delta: 0:28,50

Total
Zx Route: 1:36,21
Old route: 1:38,40

Difference of 2,19

[quote="Dragondarch"]That missile tank in the big room (where we used to charge a shine after getting Ice)...would it be worth it to skip until cleanup?[/quote]
It's not, I don't remember the exact numbers, but I'm sure it's not, in any of the proposed routes.

[quote="Dragondarch"]
Also, did you factor in the extra time it would take to both deal with Imago Cocoon and bomb jumping up from Ridley's room?[/quote]
I did not, but I also didn't factor in time saved by having Hi-Jump and Screw Attack in the Ice Beam area, so it should even out or maybe even give Late Ice more of an advantage.

I timed the Zx route difference too, but I think I derped the math, after some recalculating it's a ~2 second difference. I don't have fancy videos for that, but it's in my archives: http://www.twitch.tv/dragonfangs/b/387419182
It runs from 20:30 to about 53:00, then I do some math that looks really confusing because I think weird.

Slightly More readable notes(One ingame second is 64 frames):
[hidden]
Bombs -> Kraid
Zx Route
Start : 2:50,39 - End : 3:27,63 - Delta: 0:37,24
Old route
Start : 2:50,39 - End : 4:00,29 - Delta: 1:09,54

Ridley -> Tourian
Zx Route
Start : 14:02,02 - End : 15:00,63 - Delta: 0:58,61
Old route
Start : 14:02,02 - End : 14:30,52 - Delta: 0:28,50

Total
Zx Route: 1:36,21
Old route: 1:38,40

Difference of 2,19
[/hidden]

Thomaz

2013-04-11 02:40:46 am

Actually, I believe that this is the way to do the "pre-Hive room" Missile expansion.

Second part of the video:

kirbymastah

2013-04-11 02:36:30 pm

Quote from Dragonfangs:

It's 15 seconds slower than late Ice though. But it totally is Jagger% material.

You actually lose less time by simply not doing that super until cleanup, that's only ~2 seconds. Just go into the room to charge a speed boost.

Which super missile are you talking about here?

ZX497

2013-04-11 02:52:52 pm

I think he means the hot room Super at the start of Norfair. Which means, it'd be like a modified Late Ice route, but instead of getting that missile there and then, you'd just charge a boost in that room to break the blocks to go forth.

Hmmm.... I think that's actually my race strat.

Dragondarch

2013-04-11 06:23:50 pm

Quote from Thomaz:

Actually, I believe that this is the way to do the "pre-Hive room" Missile expansion.

Second part of the video:

Wow, I hadn't thought of just ball hopping out. I always thought the angle would have put us under the platform rather than beside it.

Also, I just timed both ways of doing it with WSplit using your video (factored out the missile get message for 1st one to make it even) and got 7.7 seconds for early tank and 5.9 seconds for with Screw Attack. Obviously, margin of error with hitting splits and all that jazz, but looking at DF's timing of ZX route vs. old route, it would seem that it brings both routes within a second of each other if done perfectly.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-04-12 03:01:45 am

2013-04-12 02:33:51 am

So I'm working on a 100% save-state run again, for the purpose of practice and a bit of research (I found a few things, but I'll post my findings once I finish it; found a few things that add up to a total of around 1.5 seconds saved up until ridley, though some of it might be known)

Here's the thing. After the two puzzle rooms in eastern ridley, is it faster to ballspark or not? I heard answers from both, but I want to get a full confirmation in real-time. Of course, it's faster to not ballspark/shinespark in TAS, but I'm not sure in a realtime run :/

Dragonfangs

2013-04-12 03:22:45 am

It's faster to not ballspark on paper, unassisted as well. But it's not by much (less than one second), and the room you spark through feels liable to screw you over. I'd still spark there for convenience, but it is slower.

Mobiusman

2013-04-12 04:07:17 am

also, as long as we're bugging dragonfangs about shinesparks: after you go beneath the big bridge in chozodia, is it worth going into the save room to the right to charge a shinespark? I feel like it's not, but I still do it >_>

samthedigital

2013-04-12 05:56:17 am

It's not because it's possible to charge the spark without going into the save room. I'm not sure whether the bug placement matters or not to do it though.