New 100% Route

Edit history:

Dragonfangs: 2013-04-18 10:14:24 pm

2013-04-18 10:13:37 pm

Right outside Hi-Jump: ~40 frames
Far out of the way PB without alarm running: ~20 frames
If alarm(shouldn't happen but eh, stuff happens): ~1 second
Bomb maze ~25 frames, not very consistent, don't go for this one.
Geemer Maze, ~40 frames, this could vary a lot depending on how you do the room and enemy placements.
Bomb Gate: ~40 frames
Space Boost: ~40 frames, Stop moving during door transition, lay power bomb and roll all the way to end of room, then do pretty much exactly what Zx did. You can start a spin as soon as you clear the ledge so you don't have to land on the platform ;)
Chain bomb block right after final PB expansion: ~20 frames

Do whatever you want! woo! Who like definitive answers anyway!?

Bomb blocks under Robot (where we charge the escape spark shine): 5.5 seconds
Final Power Bomb: 4.5 Seconds

kirbymastah

2013-04-18 10:30:46 pm

nonlinearity!

ZX497

Edit history:

ZX497: 2013-04-19 09:55:32 am

ZX497: 2013-04-19 09:51:08 am

ZX497: 2013-04-19 09:43:44 am

ZX497: 2013-04-19 08:57:23 am

ZX497: 2013-04-19 08:57:04 am

2013-04-19 08:55:19 am

Still got something.

Small potatoes, but pretty sure this is better. And yeah, you gotta grab the super later, but there are two good opportunities for that.

EDIT:

Upon further testing, you will most likely lose most if not all of the time you gain by doing this when grabbing the Super later, so the actual gain or loss is probably measured in frames, if both routes are executed perfectly. Dragonfangs? :P

Best bet to get the Super later is when coming through the red door: Get under the opening, clear the opening and trigger the bot, plant a bomb on the ground and jump up. Then after you come back through the hole, you can just spin mid-air to break all the Screw Attack blocks and land where you need to be.

ZX497

2013-04-21 10:55:42 am

I figured out a relatively decent quick kill setup for the second worm (the one which you use Morph Ball Bombs against). Basically, run into him, start mashing bombs after getting hit, and as soon as your Morph Ball hits the ground, ever so slightly tap left, all while still mashing B to lay down bombs. I've been getting some great consistency with this setup for the one-round kill (80% or so).

kirbymastah

2013-04-21 09:26:47 pm

Quote from ZX497:

I figured out a relatively decent quick kill setup for the second worm (the one which you use Morph Ball Bombs against). Basically, run into him, start mashing bombs after getting hit, and as soon as your Morph Ball hits the ground, ever so slightly tap left, all while still mashing B to lay down bombs. I've been getting some great consistency with this setup for the one-round kill (80% or so).

I should try that out.

Meanwhile I'm thinking about delaying long beam, as that saves a bit of time too. Any trouble rooms I should be aware of and practice, besides brinstar's hive room?

ZX497

2013-04-21 09:50:13 pm

Well, without Long your Beam does less damage, so it might make a difference on many rooms depending on how you use your beam in the first place. This is nothing missiles can't fix, though!

Beyond that, there's at least two rooms that come to mind:

- The hot room Misile Tank in Norfair. Since you don't have Long, you gotta remember to shoot a missile near the roof before shinesparking right.

- The Speed Boost Jump room in Ridley. Not having Long makes timing the missile shot, and the subsequent jump over the barrier a little more difficult.

There are a lot of other small things where the lack of Long is gonna be an annoyance, but like I said, it's mostly nothing missiles can't fix. Just gotta get used to holding R more often :P

kirbymastah

2013-04-21 09:52:43 pm

I speedrun fusion. that'll be no problem for me :P

Mobiusman

2013-04-22 08:28:13 am

Quote from ZX497:

- The hot room Misile Tank in Norfair. Since you don't have Long, you gotta remember to shoot a missile near the roof before shinesparking right.things where the lack of Long is gonna be an annoyance, but like I said, it's mostly nothing missiles can't fix. Just gotta get used to holding R more often :P

fwiw, you can still hit this with your beam.

skipping ice beam does kinda make skipping long beam seem more feasible, since your beam is already weak enough to not kill the purple dudes. that one room in ridley is definitely more difficult, but it's far from impossible. But I'd really want to find a consistent strat to get the missile tank at the top of brinstar early before I start skipping long.

Mobiusman

Edit history:

Mobiusman: 2013-04-23 02:21:07 pm

2013-04-23 02:21:00 pm

so, let's say I wanted to get the long beam late and the varia etank early. what is the fastest order to get the remaining items in brinstar?

1) "traditional" route: after getting the etank, go straight to kraid. after getting the brinstar super, go get the missile tank before hives, then the missile tank at the top of brinstar, both of which are much faster with your upgrades. then go get long beam.

2) after getting the etank, get the difficult missile at the top of brinstar, then go back right and get the missile before hive room, then go to kraid. The advantage of this route is that after getting the brinstar super, you can go straight up to long beam.

ZX497

Edit history:

ZX497: 2013-04-23 03:00:51 pm

ZX497: 2013-04-23 03:00:18 pm

ZX497: 2013-04-23 02:59:46 pm

ZX497: 2013-04-23 02:42:41 pm

2013-04-23 02:25:54 pm

No matter what, you want to delay the missile tank before the Hive Room on early Varia E-tank route. Even if you do grab the difficult Missile Tank on top of Brinstar, getting the Hive Room tank later still saves time. I mean, you'll be passing through the exact same point on the map when going towards Kraid, and when going towards Tourian, and it's the exact same detour for that tank on both passes.

I ran a quick test comparing getting the top Brinstar Missile Tank early and late, when going for Late Long, and I honestly don't think there's enough of a gain there at all to make it worthwhile. You can technically save time getting it early, but it's only about a second or two gain, IF you get optimal turtle pattern, and get the bomb jump up there first try. TAS should do it, and it might be something to consider for Segmented.

EDIT:

It might be worth it, actually. I grinded out that bomb jump for a little while, and it's actually not that bad. The position of the bottom turtle basically doesn't matter at all, it's only the top turtle and the geemer you have to worry about. Take out the Geemer and get on top of the block, and once the top turtle starts traveling right, start double bomb jumping while slightly angling it left.

Still, though, the risk to reward ratio is not very good. But the trick itself is not too hard, even for single segment.

No matter what, you want to delay the missile tank before the Hive Room on early Varia E-tank route. Even if you do grab the difficult Missile Tank on top of Brinstar, getting the Hive Room tank later still saves time. I mean, you'll be passing through the exact same point on the map when going towards Kraid, and when going towards Tourian, and it's the exact same detour for that tank on both passes.

I ran a quick test comparing getting the top Brinstar Missile Tank early and late, when going for Late Long, and I honestly don't think there's enough of a gain there at all to make it worthwhile. You can technically save time getting it early, but it's only about a second or two gain, IF you get optimal turtle pattern, and get the bomb jump up there first try. TAS should do it, and it might be something to consider for Segmented.

EDIT:

It might be worth it, actually. I grinded out that bomb jump for a little while, and it's actually not that bad. The position of the bottom turtle basically doesn't matter at all, it's only the top turtle and the geemer you have to worry about. Take out the Geemer and get on top of the block, and once the top turtle starts traveling right, start double bomb jumping while slightly angling it left.

Still, though, the risk to reward ratio is not very good. But the trick itself is not too hard, even for single segment.

Mobiusman

2013-04-23 03:20:15 pm

Quote from ZX497:

I mean, you'll be passing through the exact same point on the map when going towards Kraid, and when going towards Tourian, and it's the exact same detour for that tank on both passes.

well no, this is my point. If you get the missile tank early, when going to tourian you can get the brinstar super tank, then just head up the west shaft to the long beam door. you don't pass by the east shaft at all.

ZX497

Edit history:

ZX497: 2013-04-23 03:26:00 pm

2013-04-23 03:25:27 pm

If you get the top tank early, you'll be taking the left-side shaft down towards Kraid, and thus, whether you'll be getting the other Missile Tank early or not, you'll pass by the door leading to the right-side shaft. And after getting the Brinstar-super, you'll be passing by that exact same door. So, really, there's no reason to go through that door early and pick up the other missile tank, it's always best left late.

Mobiusman

2013-04-23 03:26:18 pm

oh, well, you can just go back down the east shaft after getting the top tank. wouldn't that be faster?

ZX497

Edit history:

ZX497: 2013-04-23 03:37:49 pm

ZX497: 2013-04-23 03:36:08 pm

ZX497: 2013-04-23 03:35:38 pm

2013-04-23 03:27:16 pm

That's a possibility. Lemme see if I can time it or something.

EDIT:

I have no idea. Route-wise it's a little better, but you lose the gain of getting that missile tank later, so it basically breaks even. I don't think I can time this accurately enough by myself, if only there was someone around with TAS'ing tools and such *whistles*

If nothing else, there'd be two less door transitions, so I'd assume it's a good path at least for RTA.

ZX497

2013-04-23 03:55:24 pm

Checked out Dragonfang's TAS, and it does the same thing Mobiusman suggested. So, I'd imagine that's the best route. Then again, the TAS does the usual TAS stuff doing this, so who knows how it actually compares in real time, haha.

Mobiusman

Edit history:

Mobiusman: 2013-04-23 04:12:21 pm

Mobiusman: 2013-04-23 04:12:13 pm

2013-04-23 04:09:19 pm

cool, thanks for looking into it. I have no idea if it would actually be faster for a human, and I imagine the difference is tiny either way. so yeah, time for dragonfangs to do his thing :P

edit: if you get these two tanks before kraid, there's a TINY chance you'd have enough missiles to not refill at space jump. that'd probably never really happen though, haha.

ZX497

2013-04-23 04:33:06 pm

Doing the Kraid clean-up late helps with that, Mobius, since that way you don't have to blow 20 missiles on the two big sidehoppers, which most definitely (even with the extra Missile Tank you get) won't net you that 20 back. I've actually managed to skip the Space Jump (Kraid) refill on a run, even without those two extra Brinstar Missile Tanks... granted, instead of damage boosting through those tubes which fire two critters at you, I stopped and killed the critters for ammo, and they happened to give me plenty of it. Not to mention Acid Worm dropped a bunch.

But yeah, skipping that refill is definitely an option, especially if you conserve missiles and maybe farm a tiny bit. The refill takes about 4-5 seconds there, so, that's how much leeway you have.

Dragonfangs

Edit history:

Dragonfangs: 2013-04-24 10:54:23 am

Dragonfangs: 2013-04-24 10:49:55 am

2013-04-24 10:03:34 am

I've been working on retiming that area in preparation for the new TAS, but I doubt getting the Varia E-Tank late will be faster for TAS, being able to wall jump into bomb jumping saves a lot of time in the old route.

Gut feeling says grabbing both tanks right before long beam should still be the best plan for unassisted, but I'll go ahead and time it.

EDIT: It's not even a full second difference ingame time. Which one comes out on top completely depends on your ripper luck, but it's still ~half a second. About 3 seconds faster to grab them early for realtime though. This is assuming you're doing long beam late, if you grab long beam early it's ~3-4 seconds faster to get the tanks later.

Mobiusman

2013-04-25 04:57:14 am

I was all but ready to forget about early long, but dragonfangs' vehemence inspired me to have another go at the upper brinstar missile tank, and I think I found a more consistent setup for it. Kill the geemer and stand at the left edge of the block. When the upper ripper starts moving right, do a diagonal bomb jump left and use the wall to shift to a vertical bomb jump. This seems a lot easier than starting from the right edge of the shaft.

ZX497

Edit history:

ZX497: 2013-04-26 09:47:47 am

2013-04-26 09:45:29 am

Alright, shoutouts to Dragondarch for this one. He's been going on and on about getting Charge Beam before entering Norfair, and whether the shinespark there actually saves time due to you having to waste time getting the Charge Beam later. Let's get this out of the way first: Getting Charge Beam before Tourian is faster. But, not by much. If you get Charge Beam before entering Norfair, you lose about one second, and if you get Charge Beam right off the bat after you kill the Worm, you lose about two, compared to perfect execution on all other areas.

However, it turns out Charge Beam gives you incredible consistency for some tricks and areas that may otherwise be a problem:

Since I effectively cost you guys one second for getting the Charge Beam earlier, I added a little bonus to the end which gives you that one second back.

Also, Dragonfangs, note the length of the Beam in these videos. Pretty long, huh? :P

Mobiusman

2013-04-26 11:31:18 am

having a 100% consistent strat for the stupid block after the larva fight is a blessing. I wonder if charge beam makes enough of a difference to the hive room to make collecting it immediately correct for late long beam.

ZX497

Edit history:

ZX497: 2013-04-26 11:39:44 am

ZX497: 2013-04-26 11:35:30 am

2013-04-26 11:34:56 am

No, it doesn't. The reason to pick it up early, is for the second trick shown in the video: If you miss the straight landing on the platform, it'll cost you a bunch of a time (4-5 seconds, or something?). You still have to time the shot to make the landing, but there's quite a bit of leeway thanks to the large hitbox Charge Beam gives you.

EDIT:

Unless, of course, you do the Kirby back-up strat for that part, which is to make a wall-jump immediately after noticing you failed to land. That one's tricky as heck, though, I dunno how he even does it.

Mobiusman

2013-04-26 11:45:29 am

Quote from ZX497:

No, it doesn't.

I mean, obviously it doesn't save time compared to executing the hive room perfectly, but this seems like a hasty dismissal - you said it's only a second slower than collecting it before norfair. Getting it first means you always have max missiles for hive room since you can collect the charge beamst's drops, and the pseudo screw attack makes it much easier to complete the room without falling.

ZX497

2013-04-26 11:48:56 am

Yeah, for consistency's sake, sure it's good, it gives you a little more missiles and a little more firepower in general for the hives. But for sheer speed, it's still slower. Personally, though, I'm gonna go for it, cause consistency is important.

Dragonfangs

Edit history:

Dragonfangs: 2013-04-26 12:01:08 pm

2013-04-26 11:50:30 am

Yay, I can gain even more time on you guys because you're afraid of doing the hive room!

Zx, your example with destroying the block before Kraid gains nothing whatsoever, it's a 3 frame window with or without charge.
Example right after power grip, was that ever a problem? It'll save a few frames, sure.
Both Examples at the norfair Super have barely anything to do with charge, killing the critter is slightly easier with Long, charge helps a bit with the first shot. I can hit the missile tank fine either by charging later or using a missile, charge does nothing there either.
The block at the end of Norfair is a legitimate use of charge, because that one is really annoying to hit.

Times for grabbing charge beam at different times:
Right After fight: 6s 14f
To Norfair: 4s 51f
To Tourian: 4s 28f

Pick your poison. Honestly I can take half a second for a consistent norfair block, and less stress by skipping the brinstar shinespark.

EDIT: Actually no, hitting the norfair block is a 6-9 frame window depending on how you space your speed boost, that shouldn't be a problem. With proper spacing I can mash fast enough to never miss that window.

Yay, I can gain even more time on you guys because you're afraid of doing the hive room!

Zx, your example with destroying the block before Kraid gains nothing whatsoever, it's a 3 frame window with or without charge.
Example right after power grip, was that ever a problem? It'll save a few frames, sure.
Both Examples at the norfair Super have barely anything to do with charge, killing the critter is slightly easier with Long, charge helps a bit with the first shot. I can hit the missile tank fine either by charging later or using a missile, charge does nothing there either.
The block at the end of Norfair is a legitimate use of charge, because that one is really annoying to hit.

Times for grabbing charge beam at different times:
Right After fight: 6s 14f
To Norfair: 4s 51f
To Tourian: 4s 28f

Pick your poison. Honestly I can take half a second for a consistent norfair block, and less stress by skipping the brinstar shinespark.

EDIT: Actually no, hitting the norfair block is a 6-9 frame window depending on how you space your speed boost, that shouldn't be a problem. With proper spacing I can mash fast enough to never miss that window.