New 100% Route

2013-04-12 07:24:08 am

It's not the placement so much as what direction the bug on the floor closest to the door is moving. I actually don't know which direction we want him moving, but one makes him easy to hit with a diagonal shot and the other doesn't.

ZX497

Edit history:

ZX497: 2013-04-12 08:02:31 am

ZX497: 2013-04-12 07:44:55 am

ZX497: 2013-04-12 07:42:15 am

ZX497: 2013-04-12 07:41:33 am

2013-04-12 07:40:20 am

You'd want him moving towards right, that way you can just fire diagonally and hit the critter. If he moves left, I think you're screwed for the spark... I say it's definitely a good idea to enter the save room just to assure you get the spark, you only need to take a few steps right inside the room and the spark is guaranteed.

EDIT:

Never mind. Guess what, Charge Beam has yet another use! What you wanna do, is charge your beam, and release the shot just before you pass the point where the angle of the slope changes (it's in the middle of those two purple pillars). That way the shot will hit the critter regardless of direction.

ZX497

Edit history:

ZX497: 2013-04-12 09:05:48 am

ZX497: 2013-04-12 09:02:44 am

2013-04-12 08:50:03 am

Here's a video. The last part of the spark could potentially be better, I think, if instead of shinesparking, you move back a little bit, and use the slope to trigger a Space Boost... if you steer the Space Boost just perfectly, you can actually land right next to the breakable blocks.

Also, the reason I go back just a tiny bit in the first room, is to assure a Speed Boost is triggered before the second critter: If the second critter moves to the right, he'll block you, and there's no way to actually guarantee getting past him. If you shoot and kill him, the little acid droplet will hit you. The only other choice is to freeze him at just the right spot, so you'll actually phase through him without slowing down... but that's pretty darn difficult, lol.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-04-12 10:06:26 am

2013-04-12 09:38:52 am

and we're finding new stuff every day :D

ZX497

2013-04-12 10:23:38 am

So, if you guys want an extremely stupid route, here's one:

- Delay Long Beam (grab before Tourian).
- Get the one missile tank after Kraid.
- Delay Ice Beam.
- Skip all the items you normally get before Tourian until clean-up (E-tank, two missile expansions).
- Reverse clean-up. Backtrack through Tourian and grab the items in Brinstar you skipped.
- Clean Norfair, enter Kraid via the Power Bomb passage.
- Finish with the Old Route.

So, there. No way this is even remotely plausible speed-wise, but it's so stylish you almost gotta like it :P

ZX497

Edit history:

ZX497: 2013-04-13 05:17:41 am

ZX497: 2013-04-12 04:08:26 pm

ZX497: 2013-04-12 04:00:17 pm

2013-04-12 12:46:57 pm

Come to think of it, could this be a possible clean-up route?

1. Norfair
2. Kraid
3. Brinstar
4. Tourian
5. Crateria

You'd have to go through Tourian twice which is a big time loss, but at least on the flip-side the required Space Boost there wouldn't require going the wrong way. There's a bunch of items in Brinstar which would be faster to get on clean-up. You'd also have one more extra PB to spare too, cause you wouldn't blow up the Brinstar / Crateria rock.

And yeah, I know this is a long shot, but these recent route changes have got me thinking :P

EDIT:

Actually, you'd have 2 more Power Bombs to spare, cause you wouldn't even blow up the little thing next to Crateria elevator.

Dragondarch

2013-04-12 10:29:44 pm

Quote from "ZX497:

Actually, you'd have 2 more Power Bombs to spare, cause you would even blow up the little thing next to Crateria elevator.

But, but...the mega-long shine... Crying or Very sad

kirbymastah

2013-04-13 01:31:10 am

Something I really wanna try out at some point...

Normal standard route until after power grip, then get ice beam and then go straight to Ridley. Don't even bother with the hijump & wave beam stuff, and just take the any% route in Ridley. On paper, it really shouldn't be that bad. You can visit Ridley during cleanup, fight imago (will plasma beam roflstomp it?), and not have to circle around imago's arena annoyingly. Furthermore, you can do a chunk of norfair in one trip (cleanup) rather than two trips, which includes screw attack and wave beam.

Can you kill the worm in norfair via power bomb or plasma beam? If so, there's also the option of going backwards through the room with the double worms in norfair during cleanup (from right to left)

Dragonfangs

2013-04-13 05:18:16 am

I timed Late Wave for teh lulz, just to know if it's even worth it to try solving the room in Ridley. Times I got say it's only half a second faster for ingame time, but 15 seconds faster for real time. Not counting time lost by not having a bunch of upgrades in Ridley, or no Wave in Chozodia. So maybe still worth it for TAS, definitely not for unassisted. Actually going back into Ridley during cleanup is out of the question.

ZX497

Edit history:

ZX497: 2013-04-15 07:10:23 am

ZX497: 2013-04-15 07:04:16 am

2013-04-15 05:09:05 am

So, do you guys like new stuff? The video isn't quite optimal, but it'll do. Also note you don't actually have to take the ball launcher for the zipline, you can just ball jump... the launcher can be equally fast and looks better, though :P

Works with any route, at least 1 sec faster in-game wise, and easily slower for RTA. Here's the kicker, though: Since the zipline missile tank is gotten late, Acid Worm Skip for 100% is now plausible for non-TAS.

Beyond that, you don't need any missile luck for the big sidehoppers. Or maybe if Acid Worm gives you really good missile luck, you could skip the recharge station at Kraid.

Mobiusman

2013-04-15 05:21:07 am

That's a really nice trick. The other issue with AWS in 100% is you can't feasibly get either of the etanks in kraid. But if you're getting the varia etank early and skipping ice beam, you could still do norfair with only one refill at screw attack.

I'm certainly not going to be incorporating HBJ into my 100% runs, but someone else can test it :)

Mobiusman

2013-04-15 07:52:57 am

dragonfangs (or whoever timed zx's brinstar route vs the old brinstar route), how does the RTA difference compare to the gametime difference? I'm guessing zx's route is faster RTA because it doesn't use the statue?

kirbymastah

2013-04-15 10:19:10 am

Wait so it's actually faster to do acid worm late now, assuming you can do acid-worm skip in 100%?

ZX497

2013-04-15 11:03:10 am

Yes and no, I guess? The Acid Worm section, done late-game, can be at least 25 seconds faster than when done early. Whether you'd be able to keep that 25 second lead is up in the air, though.

Naturally, the biggest time loss would be the horizontal bomb jump, which is a guaranteed ~15 seconds gone right there. Beyond that one section, you would have to skip both the E-tanks in Kraid, leaving you with either just 2 or 3 tanks for Norfair (Dragondarch's old Brinstar route would almost definitely be a better pick due to the extra E-tank).

Then again, you can almost guarantee you will save 2 seconds picking up the last E-tank from Kraid during clean-up: Hitting the switch early, and breaking all of the blocks for optimal landing is almost guaranteed thanks to Wave Beam and Space Jump. Technically, you can do this section just as well early on, but it's extremely difficult... I have never both hit the switch, and broken all the blocks during a run.

Lastly, skipping Acid Worm would pretty much guarantee you can skip the Kraid recharge station. All in all, I honestly think saving up to 10 seconds is possible with this route. Needless to say, though, it's bar none the hardest route too, lol.

Yes and no, I guess? The Acid Worm section, done late-game, can be at least 25 seconds faster than when done early. Whether you'd be able to keep that 25 second lead is up in the air, though.

Naturally, the biggest time loss would be the horizontal bomb jump, which is a guaranteed ~15 seconds gone right there. Beyond that one section, you would have to skip both the E-tanks in Kraid, leaving you with either just 2 or 3 tanks for Norfair (Dragondarch's old Brinstar route would almost definitely be a better pick due to the extra E-tank).

Then again, you can almost guarantee you will save 2 seconds picking up the last E-tank from Kraid during clean-up: Hitting the switch early, and breaking all of the blocks for optimal landing is almost guaranteed thanks to Wave Beam and Space Jump. Technically, you can do this section just as well early on, but it's extremely difficult... I have never both hit the switch, and broken all the blocks during a run.

Lastly, skipping Acid Worm would pretty much guarantee you can skip the Kraid recharge station. All in all, I honestly think saving up to 10 seconds is possible with this route. Needless to say, though, it's bar none the hardest route too, lol.

Dragonfangs

2013-04-15 04:36:28 pm

So guys, Ridley First for 100% was a terrible idea, just so you know. (It was more than a minute slower)

And Mobiusman, yes late Upper Brinstar is an extra like 2 or 3 seconds faster for realtime, but not nearly as much as the full statue cutscene. There are a few extra door transitions in the new route.

Thomaz

2013-04-15 05:04:23 pm

Honestly, I don't know about real time, but I'm pretty sure upper Brinstar first is definitely the way to go.

But yeah, if anyone would do segmented, the run is gonna be mad hard, I'm pretty sure.

kirbymastah

2013-04-15 06:23:52 pm

I'm pretty sure if you do a segmented run, you definitely want to do upper brinstar first, with acid worm late.

For SS, whether you wanna do upper brinstar first or last probably comes down to personal preference since they're really close for the most part.

spidey-widey

2013-04-15 06:28:34 pm

Quote from Dragonfangs:

And Mobiusman, yes late Upper Brinstar is an extra like 2 or 3 seconds faster for realtime, but not nearly as much as the full statue cutscene. There are a few extra door transitions in the new route.

I'm just curious, is this assuming one recharge in Norfair for both routes, or is late Upper Brinstar still faster in real time than an early Upper Brinstar route that doesn't recharge in Norfair?

Quote from ZX497:

Works with any route, at least 1 sec faster in-game wise, and easily slower for RTA.

Do I correctly understand that putting off those items until cleanup is ~1 second faster in-game, keeping everything else the same?

As for the acid worm skip in 100%...I think 15 seconds lost on the HBJ is a rather high estimate. (I just watched the HBJ in aj's any% hard run, and getting across the pit via HBJ only took him about 9 or 10 seconds.) You will indeed gain a few seconds getting the Kraid energy tank (and other items) later on. I don't think you gain any time by not recharging before Kraid, since the lack of energy tanks means you'll need to recharge somewhere in Norfair. Overall, though, the delayed acid worm route sounds a good deal faster, at least on paper.

On a related note, do we have a good estimate on how much time is saved by delaying the long beam?

[quote="Dragonfangs"]And Mobiusman, yes late Upper Brinstar is an extra like 2 or 3 seconds faster for realtime, but not nearly as much as the full statue cutscene. There are a few extra door transitions in the new route.[/quote]
I'm just curious, is this assuming one recharge in Norfair for both routes, or is late Upper Brinstar still faster in real time than an early Upper Brinstar route that doesn't recharge in Norfair?

[quote="ZX497"]Works with any route, at least 1 sec faster in-game wise, and easily slower for RTA.[/quote]
Do I correctly understand that putting off those items until cleanup is ~1 second faster in-game, keeping everything else the same?

As for the acid worm skip in 100%...I think 15 seconds lost on the HBJ is a rather high estimate. (I just watched the HBJ in aj's any% hard run, and getting across the pit via HBJ only took him about 9 or 10 seconds.) You will indeed gain a few seconds getting the Kraid energy tank (and other items) later on. I don't think you gain any time by not recharging before Kraid, since the lack of energy tanks means you'll need to recharge somewhere in Norfair. Overall, though, the delayed acid worm route sounds a good deal faster, at least on paper.

On a related note, do we have a good estimate on how much time is saved by delaying the long beam?

ZX497

2013-04-15 06:32:34 pm

Yeah, Spidey, you got that right: 1 sec faster in-game wise. The only items that will be delayed are two missile tanks, and you can easily make everything work even without them.

Also, you definitely DO gain something by not refilling at Kraid. Why? Cause you can instead use the E-tank in Brinstar for a refill, by just leaving it there until you're done with Kraid :)

spidey-widey

Edit history:

spidey-widey: 2013-04-15 06:45:21 pm

2013-04-15 06:42:43 pm

Does that really help with anything, though? Even being as bad as I am at fighting Kraid, I still returned to Brinstar in the 52:38 with 12 health less than maximum, and I don't think that's unusual. The lack of energy tanks still forces you to recharge somewhere in Norfair, right?

Edit: Umm, never mind that reasoning; of course I was close to full health, since I recharged. I had 80 health less than max at the moment I took the recharge before Kraid.

Dragonfangs

2013-04-15 06:45:27 pm

Quote from spidey-widey:

I'm just curious, is this assuming one recharge in Norfair for both routes, or is late Upper Brinstar still faster in real time than an early Upper Brinstar route that doesn't recharge in Norfair?

When I do tests, I do them very localized to the areas I'm looking into. So unless stated I don't take into account how more or less resources/upgrades affect the rest of the route. Refill time is all in game time too, so if that e-tank is the difference between running norfair with or without any refills you're probably straight up gaining time by grabbing it early.

Quote from spidey-widey:

On a related note, do we have a good estimate on how much time is saved by delaying the long beam?

Er, I'm not sure, I can look into that. It's a bit less unassisted since we don't really get the missile at the top of brinstar without power grip.

ZX497

Edit history:

ZX497: 2013-04-15 06:55:51 pm

2013-04-15 06:51:14 pm

Quote from spidey-widey:

Does that really help with anything, though? Even being as bad as I am at fighting Kraid, I still returned to Brinstar in the 52:38 with 12 health less than maximum, and I don't think that's unusual. The lack of energy tanks still forces you to recharge somewhere in Norfair, right?

Even with 3 tanks, yeah, I do think you need a refill somewhere in Norfair, unless you get godlike drops or something. So maybe postponing the Brinstar E-tank doesn't really matter.

However, skipping the Kraid refill still does matter. Like, you can either refill there, and also refill somewhere in Norfair... or, you can only refill somewhere in Norfair. Either way, it's one less refill station.

EDIT: Actually, if you postpone the hot-room Super and Missile tanks (according to Dragonfangs, getting those on clean-up only loses you around 2 seconds, route-wise), you definitely could have enough Energy to go through the whole Norfair without a refill, with just 3 tanks. Still, though, not sure if postponing that Super is a worthwhile investment.

[quote="spidey-widey"]Does that really help with anything, though? Even being as bad as I am at fighting Kraid, I still returned to Brinstar in the 52:38 with 12 health less than maximum, and I don't think that's unusual. The lack of energy tanks still forces you to recharge somewhere in Norfair, right?[/quote]

Even with 3 tanks, yeah, I do think you need a refill somewhere in Norfair, unless you get godlike drops or something. So maybe postponing the Brinstar E-tank doesn't really matter.

However, skipping the Kraid refill still does matter. Like, you can either refill there, and also refill somewhere in Norfair... or, you can only refill somewhere in Norfair. Either way, it's one less refill station.

EDIT: Actually, if you postpone the hot-room Super and Missile tanks (according to Dragonfangs, getting those on clean-up only loses you around 2 seconds, route-wise), you definitely could have enough Energy to go through the whole Norfair without a refill, with just 3 tanks. Still, though, not sure if postponing that Super is a worthwhile investment.

Mobiusman

2013-04-15 06:55:11 pm

this route actually sounds really good except for the HBJ. can someone please go find a consistent strat for that? I'd love to test it :(

spidey-widey

2013-04-15 06:57:26 pm

My intent was to compare the acid worm skip 100% route to the one used in my 52:38. In the acid worm skip route, you recharge in Norfair but not in Kraid, whereas in the other route I recharged in Kraid but not in Norfair. The amount of recharges is the same in either route, so I think the lack of a Kraid recharge doesn't gain you anything so much as it prevents you from losing anything.

ZX497

2013-04-15 06:58:53 pm

Ohhh, yeah, now I get what you mean, you were thinking of the differences between the routes. I was actually just only talking about the Acid Worm skip route, lol.