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One shall stand, one shall ball.
Quote from Billy:
^it's new.

So? Echoes was new once and I sorely regret getting excited over that and expecting it to top Prime, which I have since learned to be impossible.

Quote from arkarian:
well echoze and corruption are pretty shitty games no matter how you look at them. so i don't exactly have precedent to look forward to this one.

Pretty much this, I still actually like Corruption to an extent though. All I want from this game is for it to not be boring and shitty. Doesn't even have to be particularly good, just kinda ok.

Quote from Kharay1977:
You know what I'm afraid of with Other-M? That this whole switching between side scrolling and free motion is going to be implemented wrong. As in, it becomes an annoying gimmick used in all the wrong places.

I don't think you have to worry about it being a gimmick, I'd be more concerned about the d-pad controls for 3d movement than any gimmicky aspects of it. Can't be more gimmicky than basically everything in Corruption, at least.
Quote from arkarian:
well echoze and corruption are pretty shitty games no matter how you look at them. so i don't exactly have precedent to look forward to this one.

ALL the Prime games have done extremely well critically, so while your free to your opinion, it does seem rather short-sighted. None surpassed prime, but the all 3 are very similar, and I find most people who discuss MP2 and MP3 with me find issue with very small problems that seem to have blinded them from what those titles DID offer. And of course, on this board everybody just hates what they can't break.

i'm fully aware a lot of people on this board feel differently, but Other M marks a return to the "main" storyline, a pseudo-return to 2-D and it's got strange game-play mechanics people are worried about not working properly.
so the problems people have are:
-odd/new perspective
-developer unproven with series (Team Ninja)

aren't those the same issues people had with retro's mysterious 3-d Metroid Prime?

I guess you've all answered why there's not much hype around here, but I'm still excited.
Quote from Billy:
ALL the Prime games have done extremely well critically
Game critics look for different things in games than fans do.
red chamber dream
people might be getting the wrong impression from me ... i'm definitely looking forward to playing other m and will get it on launch day. it's a metroid game after all. i just don't have high hopes for it because the last two flagship games disappointed me. it wouldn't make sense for me to do anything but take news about other m with a huge grain of salt.
Edit history:
tomatobob: 2010-07-07 08:53:50 pm
One shall stand, one shall ball.
Quote from Kharay1977:
Game critics look for different things in games than fans do.

Very true, critical reception has very little to do with one's own enjoyment and opinion of the game. Also as long as the game looks shiny critics will blow it endlessly regardless of its actual merits.

Quote from Billy:
and I find most people who discuss MP2 and MP3 with me find issue with very small problems that seem to have blinded them from what those titles DID offer.

Not being fun seems like a pretty big issue to me. Not being able to break them has little to do with it. Being able to break them in a way that would make them fun would be nice, of course.
^thats fine (still disagree), but arkarian said they are bad games however you look at it, which is sort of paradoxical considering pretty much every review of that game is very positive.

I find personally that looking at metacritic can tell me a lot about whether I want to play a game or not.
And I disagree with the comment about reviewers always being nice to games that look good. It obviously depends on the reviewer, the game, ect. I seem to remember a game called Lair that has very good graphics, for example.

I also think it's worth thinking about that most of you just expect the kind of games that you already love. You'll reject the new product because it isn't the game you've grown connected to through playing and playing for so many years, which is sort of an annoying side-effect of being a fan. You don't just judge MP2&3 on their merits, you judge them based on how much better you think MP1 (or the 2d games) is/are, which is inevitable I guess. And lots of you will probably do the same to Other M, unless if gives you something that completely superior to every other metroid game.. which is unlikely.
One shall stand, one shall ball.
Quote from Billy:
You don't just judge MP2&3 on their merits, you judge them based on how much better you think MP1 (or the 2d games) is/are, which is inevitable I guess. And lots of you will probably do the same to Other M, unless if gives you something that completely superior to every other metroid game.. which is unlikely.

Isn't that kinda how franchises work? Take a base concept and build on it with each installment, the goal being to make a better game with each entry. If a new game isn't better than its predecessor there's a problem. And if that sequel also happens to bring nothing new to the table there is another problem. Echoes was basically Prime with shinier graphics and more filler bullshit thrown in that added nothing to the series and it continued a trend away from the base concept of Metroid. If it wasn't titled Metroid most people would consider it average at best.

If Other M is not better than Corruption or fails to bring anything new to the series then it should be considered a failed entry. Their appeals to Super Metroid nostalgia certainly isn't going to help, though, considering the love that game gets.
Quote from Billy:
You don't just judge MP2&3 on their merits
Want a hint?

Metroid Prime
Metroid Prime 2: Echoes
Metroid Prime 3: Corruption

See a pattern yet?
One shall stand, one shall ball.
You forgot Hunters! :O
Edit history:
Kharay1977: 2010-07-08 07:23:08 am
Quote from tomatobob:
You forgot Hunters! :O
Technically, we all did. As we were comparing MP1, 2 and 3. Can't recall anyone bringing up Hunters.

Maybe... that's a tell tale sign though. Think
Edit history:
Opium: 2010-07-08 08:24:37 am
Quote from tomatobob:
Isn't that kinda how franchises work? Take a base concept and build on it with each installment, the goal being to make a better game with each entry. If a new game isn't better than its predecessor there's a problem. And if that sequel also happens to bring nothing new to the table there is another problem. Echoes was basically Prime with shinier graphics and more filler bullshit thrown in that added nothing to the series and it continued a trend away from the base concept of Metroid.


I can't believe I'm actually falling into this shit-trap again, but oh well. 

You say that how a franchise works is to take a base concept and build on it, making a better game.  Well, they certainly did build on Prime1. They added some cool new items and beams, including seeker missiles which I think will be returning in future games. Echoes looks better, is bigger, more complex, and added moves that really should have been in Prime1 (boosting from spider rails, shooting while grappling). The boss battles were the best in the trilogy, they brought screw attack back, and samus never looked so good. People complain about the ammo system because they say that they wanted unlimited firepower. The game constantly gives you refills, so you never really run out, so if people can't get over their paranoid OCD by forever looking at their ammo levels then too bad. They most certainly DID follow the 'base concept of metroid', which to me is: being marooned on alien planet, find items/upgrades which allow you to access new areas, defeat ultimate boss, escape.

I think you just don't like Echoes because you prefer the atmosphere and flow of Prime1, but to take your favorite metroid game and say that that is what metroid is all about and the way it should always be is kinda narrow sighted.  How could they have even made sequels if they were practically identical to the first game?  Not bringing anything new to the table would have caused a bigger shitstorm than anything Echoes ever could. 

I think the reason that most people (casual players, not M2K2 people) criticize Echoes is that it suffers from the Majoras Mask syndrome. Ocarina of Time was a huge smash hit that  brought a huge franchise into 3D, they followed it up using the same engine with a bigger, deeper, darker game and people cried because suddenly the game asked you to think harder and play longer. Critics and players alike were hesitant to admit that the added difficulty was a big source of their discomfort, since that would make them sound like pussies.  Instead they offered crappy explanations for their dislike and point to lower sales as validation for their opinions, when that really doesn't EXPLAIN anything, it just points to more effect and ignores cause. So then comes Prime1. Again, a major series is brought into 3D and it's a mega-hit. The developers follow it up with a bigger, darker, harder game - Echoes. People cried again and said 'We want more Prime1! It's just better!  Sob!' being careful not to admit that they got lost 10 times more than they ever did with Prime1 and got frustrated, sometimes never even bothering to replay the game until the map is memorized.  They just put Prime1 back into their gamecubes and felt better about themselves, cursing their dusty copy of Echoes every time it came up. It took a good number of years for Majoras Mask to get the credit it deserved among gamers, and now I think Echoes is gaining popularity as well.

If the game just simply isn't your cup of tea then so be it, but to say that it's a shitty game is just overkill. I'm sure that many of the reasons why one would like or not like it just boil down to personal preference - but the game is an ambitious and well-made project that any developer would be proud of.  Say that you hate it all you want but quit saying that it sucks.

 
@Opium: It's unavoidable and completely normal for people to judge MP2 based on the merits of its predecessor. Simply because they are part of the same chain, the Metroid Prime chain. In that respect, MP1 simply had the most to tell about that story and it did it the best.

There are plenty of objective arguments I can name though that for me personally made MP2 a shit game. A few examples: What is Beam Ammo all about really? I mean, Metroid never had beam ammo before? Why now? How is it justifiable? Another one, Boost Ball Guardian... anyone in here actually enjoy that boss? I personally know plenty of people that found that fight so annoying they put MP2 away to never touch it again.

Honestly, if people think the game sucks they should be allowed to have that opinion. And in my personal opinion, Metroid Prime 2 is indeed a shit game. Although, it does beat 3 for me personally. 3 just felt too unpolished and messy to be taken serious by me.

For the record - I love Zelda. But (and this is coming from a fan of the series) - MM really is a shit game as well, in my opinion anyhow. The progress of time since its release did nothing to improve on it in my opinion. If anything, it just strengthened my opinion on that particular title - it's a load of bullocks.
Of course people will judge the game based on it's predecessor and prefer one over the other, that idea isn't something I'm arguing against.  Yes, I do enjoy boost ball guardian.  Heaven forbid that they add a boss that can actually kill you on higher difficulty settings. You say that the boss is 'annoying' but don't give any explanation as to what's annoying about it, so I'm going to assume that you feel the boss is too hard. Beam ammo is not restricting in any way since the game constantly throws refills at you.  They even move towards you without having to use charge beam.  Never having to worry about how much ammo you have makes it a non-issue to me. 

You say MM is shit, but offer no explanation as to why, so I'm again going to assume that you found it to be too difficult.

I guess the basic point I'm trying to make isn't about what games are better than others, it's calling them 'shit' when you don't like them.  There are plenty of games out there that I don't like, but I don't call them 'shit' just because they're not my cup of tea.  I reserve the description of 'shit' for things like uninspired 3rd party non-games such as the ones that flooded the wii and atari systems. 
Quote from Opium:
Of course people will judge the game based on it's predecessor and prefer one over the other, that idea isn't something I'm arguing against.  Yes, I do enjoy boost ball guardian.  Heaven forbid that they add a boss that can actually kill you on higher difficulty settings. You say that the boss is 'annoying' but don't give any explanation as to what's annoying about it, so I'm going to assume that you feel the boss is too hard. Beam ammo is not restricting in any way since the game constantly throws refills at you.  They even move towards you without having to use charge beam.  Never having to worry about how much ammo you have makes it a non-issue to me. 

You say MM is shit, but offer no explanation as to why, so I'm again going to assume that you found it to be too difficult.

I guess the basic point I'm trying to make isn't about what games are better than others, it's calling them 'shit' when you don't like them.  There are plenty of games out there that I don't like, but I don't call them 'shit' just because they're not my cup of tea.  I reserve the description of 'shit' for things like uninspired 3rd party non-games such as the ones that flooded the wii and atari systems.
What you fail to grasp is that the qualifier 'shit' is a personal one.

MM is shit ... TO ME.
MP2 is shit ... TO ME.

It would be the same as saying...

MM is a poor game... in my opinion. Is that more acceptable to you?
MP2 is a poor game... in my opinion. Again, more acceptable?

It's all the same thing.

And, again, what is it with people's obsession in here to expect people to justify their taste with objective explanations. There ARE none. But, I'll amuse you and myself as I am bored stiff anyhow. What did I found annoying about Boost Ball Guardian? Personally, I found the whole mechanics of the fight not at all enjoyable. Was it a hard fight? Sure, it was. But, that wasn't the reason I found him annoying. Quite frankly, MP1's Omega Pirate is a lot harder if you've never done him before. So is Meta Ridley. And speaking of hard bosses... Penance (FFX)... a very, very, very hard boss. But, the mechanics of the fight are enjoyable. To me anyhow. Yogg-Saron +0, one of the most challenging boss fights ever in WoW... but, it's interesting mechanics, enjoyable, challenging in a good way. Do not assume I am lazy simply because I do not enjoy MP2 as much as you obviously do.

What did I find poor about Majora's Mask? The story for one. I simply did not enjoy the story. It didn't appeal to me in any way, shape or form. And, for a game that bears the Zelda name, Zelda herself is strikingly absent from that title. Save for the occasional flashback of the main char here and there.

Honestly, this incessant obsession people over here on M2K2 have with wanting explanations for personal preference. WTS [Clue]
Edit history:
Opium: 2010-07-08 10:08:43 am
Opium: 2010-07-08 10:05:08 am
Thank you.  SHIT, TO ME  =/=  SHIT

That's all I'm saying.

Quote from Kharay1977:
Honestly, this incessant obsession people over here on M2K2 have with wanting explanations for personal preference. WTS [Clue]


By saying 'shit-to me' it is now a personal preference.  That's not what was said before, it was simply called shit.
Quote from Opium:
Thank you.  SHIT, TO ME  =/=  SHIT

That's all I'm saying.

Quote from Kharay1977:
Honestly, this incessant obsession people over here on M2K2 have with wanting explanations for personal preference. WTS [Clue]


By saying 'shit-to me' it is now a personal preference.  That's not what was said before, it was simply called shit.
OK, so, now we all simply have to add 'imo' to everything we say and you're happy?

For crying out loud... WTS [More Clues]
In fact, every bomberman has more gameplay than Prime, imo.
Quote from Kharay1977:
OK, so, now we all simply have to add 'imo' to everything we say and you're happy?


Don't be ridiculous.  IF someone makes a strong statement, like 'that game IS SHIT', on a gaming forum, then the chances of debate being sparked are much higher than if they had said 'that game IS SHIT, IMO'.  You don't have to say IMO if you think it's silly, just don't be surprised by more resistance. 

Regardless, I'm sure we don't want to debate about wording or any philosophy behind it.  It was about Echoes and whether or not it is shit, 'to me' or otherwise.  I like it.  You don't.  I'm not gonna stop liking it and you probably aren't going to start liking it.  It's been a topic that has come up more than once that's worth debating.
Yeah, I ran into this unfortunately a little while back regarding Zelda. I said something about how I thought Spirit Tracks was the best 2D Zelda game they had put out after I finished it for the first time, and everyone jumped all over me because they brought up Link's Awakening and the Oracle games, which I have never played, and said I had no right to make that kind of statement without having played every single 2D Zelda before. I thought it was ridiculous, to be honest, but what could I do?

In any case, regarding Echoes and Corruption, they are certainly not as good as the first Prime to me, but they are still good games. I like Corruption more than Echoes, but both games have their high points and things that make them better than the average game outside of the Metroid series. Sure, everything we've seen from Other M suggests its taking a route similar to Fusion and Corruption as far as story progression goes, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing since I enjoyed both of those games a lot regardless of their emphasis on story and what it did to the flow of the games. Could the story be handled differently/better for a Metroid game? Yeah, there are ways, and Prime proved that with scanning the logs. But personally, I don't know how well that would work for showing off Samus' past, since it feels more like flashbacks and visual representation work so much better for a situation like this.

Heh, you'd think fans of a series that's all about adapting yourself to foreign/alien environments in order to survive would be more willing to accept change as a whole. I still have high hopes that Other M will be awesome and a great Metroid title. But as I've said before, I seem to be in the minority around here from what I've seen everyone else say about their feelings towards the game.
Quote from Prime Hunter:
Yeah, I ran into this unfortunately a little while back regarding Zelda. I said something about how I thought Spirit Tracks was the best 2D Zelda game they had put out after I finished it for the first time, and everyone jumped all over me because they brought up Link's Awakening and the Oracle games, which I have never played, and said I had no right to make that kind of statement without having played every single 2D Zelda before. I thought it was ridiculous, to be honest, but what could I do?

You've played Link's Awakening since and have re-evaluated your stance on Spirit Tracks since, right?
Edit history:
kesvalk: 2010-07-08 02:43:27 pm
Indie Lover
i understand what ppl are talking about, i simply hate a link to the past, i hate, for no reason really, i just hate it, something in that game is inexpicably wrong for me, it's almost as if the game is not zelda, but for me...

i would never say the game is a piece of rotten crap, it's not, at least i think it's not, but i would never play the game, because, for me, it's a bad game, i would chosse bubsy2 in place of zelda LTTP...

the same can be said with MGS, Metroid and all the other franchises...
although there is no bad game in the metroid series, for me at least...

Quote from J_SNAKE:
In fact, every bomberman has more gameplay than Prime, imo.

i never thought this day would come, but i agree with J_SNAKE...
Quote from kesvalk:
i never thought this day would come, but i agree with J_SNAKE...
I felt much the same way when I agreed with J_SNAKE on something for the first time.
Quote from TheGreenManalishi:
You've played Link's Awakening since and have re-evaluated your stance on Spirit Tracks since, right?

Nope. I'd have to find it somewhere and buy it first, which isn't going to happen anytime soon with everything that's coming down the line this year. (Plus anything that's going on in my life outside of gaming.)
red chamber dream
Quote from Opium:
I think the reason that most people (casual players, not M2K2 people) criticize Echoes is that it suffers from the Majoras Mask syndrome. Ocarina of Time was a huge smash hit that  brought a huge franchise into 3D, they followed it up using the same engine with a bigger, deeper, darker game and people cried because suddenly the game asked you to think harder and play longer.

i don't know of any casual players who didn't like echoze. that game garnered near-universal critical acclaim and sold like hotcakes. everyone seems to love it ... except some people at m2k2.
for the record, i like majora's mask way, way more than oot. echoze is nothing like mm. it's certainly bigger, but darker and deeper? if by "darker" you mean "muddier graphics" and "deeper" you mean "you go down deep into a bog" then sure. but just making a game physically look darker doesn't make it like mm. mm had plenty of bright areas ... it's the overall tone of the game that was dark, and i think prime much better fits that description than echoze. echoze has some silly story with some silly alien that talks to you, totally ruining any atmosphere the game might have had.


Quote from Opium:
Well, they certainly did build on Prime1. They added some cool new items and beams

dark beam = ice beam
light beam = plasma beam
annihilator beam = stupid combination of the two
i fail to see what's either "new" or "cool" about the beams. seeker missiles were nice, i'll give you that, but they were only used as a key. you barely ever had a good reason to use them outside of unlocking doors. most of the other items new to the prime series were the same way (translators? screw attack?, though i'll admit corruption was way worse about this. in prime when you got eg the power bombs you'd remember all that bendezium you'd come across and go wow cool, i can actually use this things to do cool stuff. it didn't feel artificial.


Quote from Opium:
Beam ammo is not restricting in any way since the game constantly throws refills at you.  They even move towards you without having to use charge beam.  Never having to worry about how much ammo you have makes it a non-issue to me.

i'm not sure why people say this but it's just not true. when playing echoze i had to constantly worry about my ammo, and it never felt like i had enough to just use whatever beam i wanted at the time. and forget about the beam combos.
when i got eg the ice beam in prime it never felt "too powerful" because they put limits on it -- it fires more slowly. only plasma was this super-powerful thing, and only because it was a nice reward near the end of the game. they didn't need an ammo system in prime because the beams were actually balanced, and enemy difficulty scaled throughout the game. echoze is horribly unbalanced because of the ammo system. they should have just given the beams natural limits. feels totally lazy to me.
besides, if you always had enough ammo, why would there be an ammo system in the first place? clearly retro intended you to have to worry about ammo, and you do. that's fine in an fps but in a prime game it's not fun.


Quote from Prime Hunter:
Yeah, I ran into this unfortunately a little while back regarding Zelda. I said something about how I thought Spirit Tracks was the best 2D Zelda game they had put out after I finished it for the first time, and everyone jumped all over me

well yeah, i'd jump all over you too. spirit tracks is not a 2d game. :P
Indie Lover
not the 2d - 3d thing again...

this is the only thing i hate about other M, that damn topic about 2d/3d, mas that was bad...