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Indie Lover
Quote from J_SNAKE:
Hard to take you serious. SM is more of gritty realism and dense bone-chilling atmosphere.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
man, you're the best!
coral to complement blue
Oh, right, I can't believe I forgot -- SM is the most upbeat, lighthearted game ever! J_Snake's comment is so ironic that it warrants exaggerated laughter!
Club 27 Goals
Quote from kesvalk:
Quote from J_SNAKE:
Hard to take you serious. SM is more of gritty realism and dense bone-chilling atmosphere.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
man, you're the best!


Golly, someone using their imagination while playing a video game? That's so crazy and silly we should just laugh at them.
this thread has gone to poop
ANKOKU
Good lord it has. I was just watching the trainwreck as it happened.

Thanks for the reminder that it wasn't a train at all.
Edit history:
J_SNAKE: 2010-06-25 06:35:02 am
J_SNAKE: 2010-06-25 06:28:36 am
J_SNAKE: 2010-06-25 06:21:40 am
J_SNAKE: 2010-06-25 06:18:04 am
Quote from taigabob:
If you knew J-Snake you would Wink

You fail badly in knowing me and sadly some follow. I think you didnt get it at all. In 3D the feel corresponds differently and less forgiving. What I was trying to convey is that in Prime your environment looks not authentic but like a poor steril arteficial movie-stage. SM looks more dirty and gritty. It has a more authentic feel to me.  In Prime monsters look like flashy steril plastic figures. I fail to see how all this is masterpiece in artic control. I think the thing is that you didnt get to see how a decent looking 3D-Metroid can look like and so especially fans got accustomed to the Prime-style. I agree that some things might be subjective, but I think we can at least agree on the fact that SM looks more dirty and gritty while Prime looks more flashy and steril with poor environmental detail.

Also why do you think 2D! SM in Windwaker-cel-shading-style would 'own'?
See, the problem with you, J_SNAKE, is that you're so convinced you're actually smarter than everyone else, you've started seeing your opinion as being the absolute truth. Which it still most definitely is not.

See, I'll offer you a completely different point of view - mine. In my point of view, SM looks infinitely more 'toony' than Metroid Prime does. In Prime I've always felt more INSIDE of the game than I ever did in SM. Not only because it is 3D as opposed to SM's 2D, but also because of the whole look and feel of the environment. As such, Prime offered me personally a far more rewarding and convincing experience than I ever got out of SM.

By the way, I do not agree with the idea that was put forward on a cel-shaded SM. In fact, in my personal opinion, cel-shading only really looks well in 3D environments. But, as I've tried pointing out - that is just one opinion and still not absolute truth.

Alfred North Whitehead ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_North_Whitehead ) - "there are no whole truths; all truths are half-truths. It is trying to treat them as whole truths that plays the devil"
Edit history:
J_SNAKE: 2010-06-25 12:16:33 pm
J_SNAKE: 2010-06-25 12:14:42 pm
J_SNAKE: 2010-06-25 12:06:41 pm
I might add that I have to be carefull with the word 'realistic' in combination with SM. I prefer the word 'authentic' for it.
I see the problem like this: In short 2D is more forgiving, especially in a well chosen Sprite-style, for example if you see a hovering platform you dont ask that much why does it fly. It feels more natural and less out of place in SM-style. In 3D however and especially if the game tries to look more realistic it doesnt look convincing(imagine flying stones in Shadow Complex, would be crappy, right?). The same applies to monsters, in 2D you can model them more convincing since the same amount of work pays alot more off than in 3D. Look at Mother Brain or how crocomire dies in SM, personally it looks already more convincing than the 3D-Prime-monsters which look like dumbed down plastic figures for small kids.
SM is about keeping mystery and cold isolation. It feels more immersive to me than Prime because Prime looks like an artificial movie-stage. Some soundtracks are good in Prime but overall they have a less serious appeal than those from SM, remember how much it adds to the isolated cold atmosphere when you land on Zebes and feel the vibe and hear every step, or the music in Maridia, the combination of all that makes the game significantly more immersive than Prime to me.
Authenticity does not apply here really. Who are you to judge what is authentic and what is not in Metroid-verse? It is Nintendo's trademark, they say what is authentic and canon and what is not.

About the rest of your post - you're actually trying to sell to me how floating rocks look more natural just as long as you do it in 2D and not 3D? Eerrrhmmm... floating rocks are a silly concept irrelevant to the number of dimensions used. And, about this so-called plastic nature of Prime - you've overlooking a very obvious detail, which is kind of surprising really. Here's the detail - hardware.

I'm sure that if the hardware had supported it, Retro and Nintendo would've loved to make Prime look as realistic as real life does.

Unfortunately, the NGC is not a Star Trek holodeck.
Edit history:
J_SNAKE: 2010-06-25 12:38:38 pm
J_SNAKE: 2010-06-25 12:38:23 pm
J_SNAKE: 2010-06-25 12:37:50 pm
Quote from Kharay1977:
you've overlooking a very obvious detail, which is kind of surprising really. Here's the detail - hardware.
The devs are who overlooked it, not me. Like pushing 3D on old nes is potentially possible to some degree with trickery and also a great achievement, only it doesnt change the fact that it would look like crap. But devs have still the choice how to design their game and about making wise compromises.
Quote from Kharay1977:
About the rest of your post - you're actually trying to sell to me how floating rocks look more natural just as long as you do it in 2D and not 3D? Eerrrhmmm... floating rocks are a silly concept irrelevant to the number of dimensions used..
So a floating rock in SM looks as much distracting to you as it would look like in Shadow Complex? There is a reason why Shadow Complex was not designed with floating rocks (despite it could add more gameplay here and there). The reason is realism.
Quote from J_SNAKE:
The devs are who overlooked it, not me. Like pushing 3D on old nes is potentially possible to some degree with trickery and also a great achievement, only it doesnt change the fact that it would look like crap. But the dev has still the choice how to design his game and about making wise compromises.
No, the devs are not the ones that overlooked it. You failed to grasp what I was trying to point out. So, I'll draw you a schematic now, so to speak.

Hardware has limitations. Game developers usually push those limitations to the best of their ability and end up with a game that looks as best as they can make it look on that hardware. But still, the hardware limitations are there. The NGC simply does NOT have what it takes to make a game actually look lifelike. No amount of optimizing or trickery can negate that fact. The FLOPS simply aren't there to do it! ;)

Quote from J_SNAKE:
So a floating rock in SM looks as much distracting to you as it would look like in Shadow Complex? There is a reason why Shadow Complex was not designed with floating rocks (despite it could add more gameplay here and there). The reason is realism.
OK, let me explain this one too then - realism. Since you brought it up. There is no way floating rocks (to stick with that example) can be labelled as realistic. The universe as we know it simply does not work that way. Gravity being the reason. So, for any game to look realistic - in other words, to approach looking and acting like our own reality - there would have to be no floating rocks of any kind.

Honestly, you're entitled to your opinion. Which is obvious really - you prefer oldschool 2D sidescrolling games. Again, you're completely entitled to that preference. Just don't project it onto others. Please.
Edit history:
J_SNAKE: 2010-06-25 01:01:50 pm
Quote from Kharay1977:
There is no way floating rocks (to stick with that example) can be labelled as realistic.
I dont want to label it realistic. I am just trying to point out that floating rocks in SM look less distracting than you would perceive them in Crysis. I think most will agree on that.

Quote from Kharay1977:
The NGC simply does NOT have what it takes to make a game actually look lifelike
A game does not need to be lifelike. If you cannot change the hardware, change/adapt your game idea to suit the hardware. Pretty much the reason there are only few 3d-games on nes.
Quote from J_SNAKE:
I dont want to label it realistic. I am just trying to point out that floating rocks in SM look less distracting than you would see them in Crysis. I think most will agree on that.
If you don't want to label it as realistic, then don't. You were the one that said: "The reason is realism."

Quote from J_SNAKE:
A game does not need to be lifelike. If you cannot change the hardware, change/adapt your game idea to suit the hardware. Pretty much the reason there are only few 3d-games on nes.
Again, the fact you personally don't like the way Metroid Prime looks does not in any way, shape or form determine whether it looks more or less realistic, authentic or anything else you may come up with and later deny having said than Super Metroid.

T A S T E

Is all this is.

And I feeling like throwing in a Dutch expression here - "Over smaak valt niet te twisten."

Go go Google Translate it and stop making a bigger ass of yourself than you already have done.
Edit history:
J_SNAKE: 2010-06-25 01:23:23 pm
J_SNAKE: 2010-06-25 01:21:03 pm
J_SNAKE: 2010-06-25 01:13:08 pm
Quote from Kharay1977:
If you don't want to label it as realistic, then don't. You were the one that said: "The reason is realism."

I said realism is the reason why you wont see them in Shadow Complex. I also pointed out that often 'authentic' seems to be a more appropriate word for it. In SM hovering stones look less distracting as you would perceive them in Crysis. Your problem is that you try to rationally observe things as you are speaking now, ignoring the fact that when you play a game the impression you get is not rational.
Edit history:
Kharay1977: 2010-06-25 01:26:08 pm
Quote from J_SNAKE:
Quote from Kharay1977:
If you don't want to label it as realistic, then don't. You were the one that said: "The reason is realism."

I said realism is the reason why you wont see them in Shadow Complex. I also pointed out that often 'authentic' seems to be a more appropriate word for it.
I already explained why authenticity is an invalid argument really. It's a moot point, authenticity is. 2D side scrolling games were the way to go at one point and some developers still release them today. But, they weren't more or less 'authentic' than the current mainstream way - 3D. Thing is, science and technology along with it advance (as it should, mind you). With that in mind, it's only natural to see new ways of displaying your game's content every so often. The next big thing is going to be actual 3D - with 3D TV sets/monitors. Next step would be a more immersive approach. Something like a holographic display or something like that.

But still, no matter what new technologies we may still see developed - it does not make any preceding technology less or more authentic. And if you fail to see why, I'm sorry, I cannot explain it any better than I already have done.

On another note - I hope you also see why I am saying the following - Bringing in other games into this discussion is like comparing apples and oranges. What works for Crysis does not necessarily work for Metroid. What works for Metroid does not necessarily work for, let's bring in something entirely different, Resident Evil.

Traditionally speaking - zombies were the main foe encountered in the first few Resident Evil titles. Does that mean every game should feature zombies? No, ofcourse not. Same applies to any element in any game.

I love the fact you actually try and prove your point with rationality versus irrationality. Because it is the very point I was trying to make about taste. Taste is perfectly irrational and subjective. And, it is at the very core of why you dislike Metroid Prime's visuals and like Super Metroid's. So, in fact... you completely agree with my point of view.
Edit history:
J_SNAKE: 2010-06-25 01:32:46 pm
Quote from Kharay1977:
Bringing in other games into this discussion is like comparing apples and oranges. What works for Crysis does not necessarily work for Metroid. What works for Metroid does not necessarily work for, let's bring in something entirely different, Resident Evil.

You said floating rocks is a silly concept, even regardless the dimension and you come up solidifying your point of view with physics. In SM however you still have gravity but hovering stones look less distracting as you would perceive them in Crysis. And I think most can agree on that. Theproblem is that you try to rationally observe things as you are speaking now, ignoring the fact that when you play a game the impression you get is not rational in general.
Edit history:
Kharay1977: 2010-06-25 01:39:32 pm
Quote from J_SNAKE:
Your problem is that you try to rationally observe things as you are speaking now, ignoring the fact that when you play a game the impression you get is not rational in general.
Repeating arguments you already made and which I, in fact, have proven to be part of what I've been trying to get across is not really helping your argument. Nor is pulling things out of context. You're mixing up everything I've said into 1 thing and placing words in my mouth I never said.

You brought in the argument of realism - not I. So, when I then try to get the point across that SM is far from realistic, well... you brought that on yourself. The fact you then claimed not wanting to label it realism, well, read back your own posts. I wasn't the one that first took that word into his mouth. ;)

And, I just LOOOOVE how you continue proving my very point - rationality indeed has nothing to do with it. Which was my very point from the beginning! Taste, remember that one? You DISLIKE Metroid Prime's visuals. That is a matter of taste and by definition, completely irrational. Which is fine, that is how human taste works. It is not based in logic, nor should it be.

Now, can we please drop this pointless discussion? All you're suffering from really is "Last word syndrom". You somehow feel you've won the argument by having the last word, no matter how pointless or silly it may be. In this case, you've ended up repeating MY very point. Well, if that what it takes for you to fill a hole in your soul or whatever your reasoning may be, have fun. I'm done discussing this with you.

*attends to more important matters*
I am more interested to know how people are thinking while I go a bit deeper than having the last word.
I am not sure you did understand my issue. If something looks less distracting it looks more authentic.
And I think that is one reason why 2D is more forgiving.
Edit history:
Kharay1977: 2010-06-25 01:52:45 pm
Quote from J_SNAKE:
I am more interested to know how people are thinking while I go a bit deeper than having the last word.
I am not sure you did understand my issue. If something looks less distracting it looks more authentic.
And I think that is one reason why 2D is more forgiving.
Quod Erat Demonstrandum
coral to complement blue
It does not, however, count as "last word syndrome" when you use Latin! teach
This thread took a turn for the tl;dr
Quote from TheGreenManalishi:
This thread took a turn for the J-SNAKE

fix'd
Quote from TheGreenManalishi:
This thread took a turn for the tl;dr
Thread TL;DR - "I personally believe they need to do way instain mother who kill their babby while ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL OVER 9000!"

Or something... ;)
Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!
In tbob's absence, I feel I should insert a J-SNAKE trolling comment, but I don't think I could do it justice. aiwebs_013
One shall stand, one shall ball.
It's really been far too long since someone actually tried to argue with J-SNAKE. Always fine entertainment.