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red chamber dream
well other m uses a 2d perspective some of the time. spirit tracks is never 2d in any sense of the term.
Edit history:
Opium: 2010-07-08 03:23:24 pm
Opium: 2010-07-08 03:23:00 pm
Opium: 2010-07-08 03:22:04 pm
Opium: 2010-07-08 03:21:36 pm
@ark:

MP2 is disliked by alot of people.  NP rated it as the 174th best game for the gamecube, while MP1 was #10.  You should try using seeker missiles for more than just unlocking doors.  And I don't understand how you don't know what I mean when I say that it's a deeper and darker game.  The map is much larger and the light/dark world adds much more complexity than MP1 - it actually made you think.  In fact, the critics said that was it's biggest downfall - too complicated.  As far as darker goes, hello?  DARK world?  Described by the critics as a nightmare - which is pretty accurate imo, wander ing through dark purple fog with screaming darkling creatures pursuing you.  That's a far cry from any of the relatively bright environments of MP1.  It was kinda scary (dark).
Indie Lover
Quote from arkarian:
well other m uses a 2d perspective some of the time. spirit tracks is never 2d in any sense of the term.

combining your post with the picture of the av on it... it seems you are mocking me ark X_X
Indie Lover
really Opiun? it didn't felt like a scary world, it seemed more like alice in wonderland...
a crazy place with strange guys screwing around... and this can be said about a lot of games to be honest...
Quote from Opium:
The map is much larger and the light/dark world adds much more complexity than MP1

No. All it did was make you backtrack through the same world over and over again, only sometimes it would be purple as hell.

Quote:
hello? DARK world? Described by the critics as a nightmare - which is pretty accurate imo, wander ing through dark purple fog with screaming darkling creatures pursuing you. That's a far cry from any of the relatively bright environments of MP1. It was kinda scary (dark).

But the atmosphere itself is nowhere near as tense as MP1 or even Corruption. Dark colours and enemies do not equal dark and tense atmosphere.
Indie Lover
agreed...
red chamber dream
what they said. nothing in echoze even comes close to phazon mines in terms of oh shit.
Quote from arkarian:
what they said. nothing in echoze even comes close to phazon mines in terms of oh shit.
Definitely.
Edit history:
kesvalk: 2010-07-08 03:30:14 pm
Indie Lover
Elysia in MP3 had me saying oh shit in the metroid containment part (where you get the multi-missle)

fist i saw the metroid picture above the door, and was like "oh man..." then i shoot the door and a guy appears dissolving in front of me... it was the only "oh shit" moment for me in the entire series

the bomb chozoid in SM and the first encounter with a metroid in Metroid 2 were the only moments like that...
Also, the fuck is up with CONSTANTLY taking damage in the Dark world? That's just saying "the game isn't hard enough so we'll just take a piece of the player's attention and slap it onto that bar at the top of the screen... still too easy? OK, we'll put ANOTHER bar on the right for ammo! That'll keep 'em busy so we don't have to make a third game!"

And the Metroid containment area is the best reason to own a Wii. Other than all the old games, of course.
red chamber dream
nah i think the constant damage was actually a good idea; it was just poorly executed.

echoze is not a hard game at all; difficulty has nothing to do with why i don't like it. i died way more playing prime the first time ...
Quote from TheGreenManalishi:
Also, the fuck is up with CONSTANTLY taking damage in the Dark world?
Exactly, it served no purpose other than it being an arbitrary challenge factor. See, I think you could summarize that being my objection to MP2 - it is too full of random garbage. The story is... random, the Ing and Luminoth are... random. Dark Samus' presence is even more random. The game to me suffers from a lack of focus and tries to make up for this by imposing arbitrary challenges.
Quote from arkarian:
nah i think the constant damage was actually a good idea; it was just poorly executed.

echoze is not a hard game at all; difficulty has nothing to do with why i don't like it. i died way more playing prime the first time ...

Boost Fucking Guardian.
red chamber dream
i dunno, i died on him maybe twice? he's one of the better boss fights in the game.
Quote from arkarian:
he's one of the better boss fights in the game.
Which in my opinion says a whole lot more about the other bosses than it does about BB Guardian.
I've died more on him than the whole of Prime 1. It's probably because I sped through the game up to this point (it hasn't been that difficult till now) and backtracking's a bit of a bitch. I keep losing my bearings because EVERYTHING'S PURPLE and I'd be better off starting the whole game again really.
Quote from Kharay1977:
@Opium: It's unavoidable and completely normal for people to judge MP2 based on the merits of its predecessor. Simply because they are part of the same chain, the Metroid Prime chain. In that respect, MP1 simply had the most to tell about that story and it did it the best.

There are plenty of objective arguments I can name though that for me personally made MP2 a shit game. A few examples: What is Beam Ammo all about really? I mean, Metroid never had beam ammo before? Why now? How is it justifiable? Another one, Boost Ball Guardian... anyone in here actually enjoy that boss? I personally know plenty of people that found that fight so annoying they put MP2 away to never touch it again.

Honestly, if people think the game sucks they should be allowed to have that opinion. And in my personal opinion, Metroid Prime 2 is indeed a shit game. Although, it does beat 3 for me personally. 3 just felt too unpolished and messy to be taken serious by me.

For the record - I love Zelda. But (and this is coming from a fan of the series) - MM really is a shit game as well, in my opinion anyhow. The progress of time since its release did nothing to improve on it in my opinion. If anything, it just strengthened my opinion on that particular title - it's a load of bullocks.

Come now, retro is a brilliant developer. you listed one aspect of gameplay and a boss.

I'll tell you why they had beam ammo. They wanted you to feel helpless at times--paranoid. It's the same reason they have a dark world that sucks your health out. They wanted you to feel like you were constantly being challenged. I'm sure retro even realized that the boost guardian was a bit too difficult, because the Trilogy version is slightly easier... that's one boss. I find it hard to believe you were unimpressed with some of the dark samus fights, or the fight with quadraxis. You land on Aether, end up stumbling into dark world and it's frightening and certainly one of the darkest and most difficult games in the series. For me it makes the pay-off of beating it so much greater. If it doesn't for you I won't argue, but you could at least recognize the potential value that has for people with different tastes.

I'm not saying I don't want them to be compared... I'm just saying that Echoes merits aren't always the same as Prime for a reason. Prime gave you varied contrasting environments, Echoes gives you cohesive-yet-varied ones with more subtlety.
Many people hail prime for being perfect. If it's perfect, why wouldn't you want the sequel to drive into new territory? It's good for the series, even if the direction isn't always suitable for you.

Every issue people have with Echoes has an explanation to why the Retro did it that way. If you don't agree with the answers that's fine, but I agree with Opium that it's a bit ridiculous to call such a well-made game shit just because you don't like the direction. I'm totally down to hear about WHY you don't like those 2 games, but they are extremely polished well-designed games and I personally take that as undeniable. Whether you enjoy them or not is a different story, but not liking something shouldn't be a qualification for bad quality.

Personal preference and quality should be judged separately.
Quote from kesvalk:
really Opiun? it didn't felt like a scary world, it seemed more like alice in wonderland...


I guess it's the drugs maybe.

Quote from TheGreenManalishi:
But the atmosphere itself is nowhere near as tense as MP1 or even Corruption. Dark colours and enemies do not equal dark and tense atmosphere.


Hmm..gotta be the drugs.


I invite you all to stay awake for 5 days and then play Echoes.  It's life changing.
Quote from Billy:
Personal preference and quality should be judged separately.
Quality is in the eye of the beholder. As such, they cannot be judged separately. They are one and the same thing.

On the rest of your post - I am not against trying out new mechanics. So long as those new mechanics make sense. And the ammo is just an arbitrary limitation that is never explained, never has any purpose or meaning behind it and is just there to annoy you and challenge you. That should not be the defining quality of any mechanic. A mechanic should make sense in the grander scheme of things. It should fit the rest of the game and in MP2's case, the rest of the Prime series. THAT is proper game design. As I tried to demonstrate a few posts back, I personally believe that MP2 suffers from a lack of focus, a lack of design.
MP2 just pushed the boat out a little too far in terms of "oh look, it's not the same as before!" when, really, that's what everyone have always wanted and will always want. When they get bored, they'll take their money to another franchise, THEN you reboot the franchise. Look at Tomb Raider. Everyone liked it way back when, then Nathan Drake comes and pisses over it, so they wait a while before rebooting. It is the way of the world.
Quote from Kharay1977:
Quote from Billy:
Personal preference and quality should be judged separately.
Quality is in the eye of the beholder. As such, they cannot be judged separately. They are one and the same thing.

On the rest of your post - I am not against trying out new mechanics. So long as those new mechanics make sense. And the ammo is just an arbitrary limitation that is never explained, never has any purpose or meaning behind it and is just there to annoy you and challenge you. That should not be the defining quality of any mechanic. A mechanic should make sense in the grander scheme of things. It should fit the rest of the game and in MP2's case, the rest of the Prime series. THAT is proper game design. As I tried to demonstrate a few posts back, I personally believe that MP2 suffers from a lack of focus, a lack of design.

You've done a better job than I would have of explaining why Echoes, due to the pitfalls of game design that it slipped into, is - to an extent - objectively inferior to Prime 1.
Edit history:
Opium: 2010-07-08 03:55:41 pm
I guess I just 'get' the game.  I never once felt like it was out of focus or felt it inferior to MP1 in any way at all.

EDIT:  btw gotta love those hands-on videos from E3
Quote from Opium:
I never once felt like it was out of focus

I hate to force the issue past the point of interesting discussion, but have you seen the amount of purple in the game?! It's like it was made by Ivan Ooze and Tinky Winky's sick bastard lovechild.
Quote from TheGreenManalishi:
but have you seen the amount of purple in the game?!
Purple is bad, m'kay...

Edit history:
Opium: 2010-07-08 04:17:40 pm
Quote from TheGreenManalishi:
Quote from Opium:
I never once felt like it was out of focus

I hate to force the issue past the point of interesting discussion, but have you seen the amount of purple in the game?! It's like it was made by Ivan Ooze and Tinky Winky's sick bastard lovechild.


I guess I've never sat down and had dialogue with myself about liking/disliking purple.  It's just how the area was designed.  I liken bitching about the purple in the dark world to bitching about all the white in Phendrana.  That's just the way they wanted that area to look.