Various No Space Jump (NSJ) & 21% topic

Hazel

Edit history:

Hazel: 2014-03-19 11:27:23 pm

Hazel: 2014-03-19 11:23:39 pm

2014-03-19 11:22:43 pm

rocks, locks, and invisible blocks

Here's an IS SW

I'm not really sure when or why I deleted the video I had of the one in the Crashed Frigate... but yeah, I was in Bioharzard Containment and just boosting around, then I fell out of bounds. You can also do the same in the Charge Beam room.
I believe these SWs are caused because you switch rooms while boosting, and then you probably load the room that's 2 away from where you are, unloading the walls around you. I actually have no idea if this is the reason though, because iirc you actually warp to weird positions when you go out of bounds.

Edit: holy crap, I need to try 21% again, so many of the things stopping me have been made easier.

kirbymastah

2014-03-20 01:15:59 am

Quote from itsPersonnal:

Here's an IS SW

I'm not really sure when or why I deleted the video I had of the one in the Crashed Frigate... but yeah, I was in Bioharzard Containment and just boosting around, then I fell out of bounds. You can also do the same in the Charge Beam room.
I believe these SWs are caused because you switch rooms while boosting, and then you probably load the room that's 2 away from where you are, unloading the walls around you. I actually have no idea if this is the reason though, because iirc you actually warp to weird positions when you go out of bounds.

Edit: holy crap, I need to try 21% again, so many of the things stopping me have been made easier.

what

Hazel

2014-03-20 12:50:15 pm

rocks, locks, and invisible blocks

Quote:

Is there an up-to-date list of all Secret Worlds accessible at ALL (in any%/ 100%)?

Quote:

here's a list of all the secret worlds, not including IS secret worlds (since you could probably get one in every room): ....

Quote:

Oh, thank you! :-) But what do you mean with Infinite Speed Secret Worlds? You can get out of bounds with IS in every room?!

Quote:

itspersonnal once entered a sw by just boosting with IS. he used to have a vid uploaded but i think he remvoed it. so my guess is that you could probably enter a sw in every room if you knew how to replicate it.

Quote from itsPersonnal:

Here's an IS SW

I'm not really sure when or why I deleted the video I had of the one in the Crashed Frigate... but yeah, I was in Bioharzard Containment and just boosting around, then I fell out of bounds. You can also do the same in the Charge Beam room.
I believe these SWs are caused because you switch rooms while boosting, and then you probably load the room that's 2 away from where you are, unloading the walls around you. I actually have no idea if this is the reason though, because iirc you actually warp to weird positions when you go out of bounds.

Edit: holy crap, I need to try 21% again, so many of the things stopping me have been made easier.

[quote] Is there an up-to-date list of all Secret Worlds accessible at ALL (in any%/ 100%)?[/quote]
[quote] here's a list of all the secret worlds, not including IS secret worlds (since you could probably get one in every room): .... [/quote]
[quote] Oh, thank you! :-) But what do you mean with Infinite Speed Secret Worlds? You can get out of bounds with IS in every room?! [/quote]
[quote]itspersonnal once entered a sw by just boosting with IS. he used to have a vid uploaded but i think he remvoed it. so my guess is that you could probably enter a sw in every room if you knew how to replicate it. [/quote]

[quote="itsPersonnal"]Here's an IS SW 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M8NqdCP2o0
I'm not really sure when or why I deleted the video I had of the one in the Crashed Frigate... but yeah, I was in Bioharzard Containment and just boosting around, then I fell out of bounds. You can also do the same in the Charge Beam room. 
I believe these SWs are caused because you switch rooms while boosting, and then you probably load the room that's 2 away from where you are, unloading the walls around you. I actually have no idea if this is the reason though, because iirc you actually warp to weird positions when you go out of bounds.

Edit: holy crap, I need to try 21% again, so many of the things stopping me have been made easier.[/quote]

Daryoshi

Edit history:

Daryoshi: 2014-04-05 06:24:30 pm

2014-04-05 06:23:52 pm

loving low%

Quote:

That sounds very fast, indeed, but I see a MAJOR problem in your route:

Quote:
-use T3's new sw to wallcrawl to front of mines
-x-ray/chozo

From Phazon Mines upper exit to Tallon Overworld leads to the second lowest door in Great Tree Hall. And I did some testing on that a while ago; it seems like it's not possible to climb GTH from the bottom (i.e. the few platforms to the bars and spinner). Maybe it's possible, but it would be a room similar to Phendrana's Edge; annoying water at the bottom of the room and a DESPITEOUS long series of SUPER tight dashes/ bomb jumps). I was messing around with this lower part of GTH for about an hour or a bit more, so it's definetly a possibility that it's IMPOSSIBLE. I wouldn't be HORRIBLY surprised, though, if I were proven wrong and T3 found a way to get the lower part of GTH done. ;-)

Well, I looked into lower part of GTH again and it seems that it's theoretically possible although extremely hard. I had Moonjump activated w/ my AR so don't take my words for it, but, well, there's a well-enough-placed dashpoint for getting to each platform, respectively use a DBJ to clear the 2 easier gaps. In order to get from the Ice Beam door to the 1st platform, you've got to hit the tree and get a little upwards boost. It's not so tight, but the dash from the 1st to the 2nd and the dash from the 3rd to the 4th platform are very tight (tap B for a few frames a possible in order to get maximum height). It's not really viable for speedruns, but on the other hand, one that attempts a 21% speedrun should be more or less fine with it (if having no Moonjump/ AR activated doesn't make it too much harder or even impossible).

-----

This is the BRILLIANT 21% Vent Shaft HPBJ I mentioned a few weeks ago:

And this is the PERHAPS POSSIBLE 21% Magmoor Workstation SW I also mentioned a few weeks ago:

And this is another thing I'm still working on: Finding an alternative for the 21% Frost Cave SW that doesn't involve the stalactite you've got to bring down in order to reach the Savestation just next to Frost Cave i.e. not having to climb Transport to Magmoor Caverns South every time you fail at entering the Frost Cave SW:

[quote]That sounds very fast, indeed, but I see a MAJOR problem in your route:

Quote:
-use T3's new sw to wallcrawl to front of mines
-x-ray/chozo

From Phazon Mines upper exit to Tallon Overworld leads to the second lowest door in Great Tree Hall. And I did some testing on that a while ago; it seems like it's not possible to climb GTH from the bottom (i.e. the few platforms to the bars and spinner). Maybe it's possible, but it would be a room similar to Phendrana's Edge; annoying water at the bottom of the room and a DESPITEOUS long series of SUPER tight dashes/ bomb jumps). I was messing around with this lower part of GTH for about an hour or a bit more, so it's definetly a possibility that it's IMPOSSIBLE. I wouldn't be HORRIBLY surprised, though, if I were proven wrong and T3 found a way to get the lower part of GTH done. ;-)[/quote]

Well, I looked into lower part of GTH again and it seems that it's theoretically possible although extremely hard. I had Moonjump activated w/ my AR so don't take my words for it, but, well, there's a well-enough-placed dashpoint for getting to each platform, respectively use a DBJ to clear the 2 easier gaps. In order to get from the Ice Beam door to the 1st platform, you've got to hit the tree and get a little upwards boost. It's not so tight, but the dash from the 1st to the 2nd and the dash from the 3rd to the 4th platform are very tight (tap B for a few frames a possible in order to get maximum height). It's not really viable for speedruns, but on the other hand, one that attempts a 21% speedrun should be more or less fine with it (if having no Moonjump/ AR activated doesn't make it too much harder or even impossible).

-----

This is the BRILLIANT 21% Vent Shaft HPBJ I mentioned a few weeks ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYpT-y9j7Pw

And this is the PERHAPS POSSIBLE 21% Magmoor Workstation SW I also mentioned a few weeks ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjsRT3YBAU8

And this is another thing I'm still working on: Finding an alternative for the 21% Frost Cave SW that doesn't involve the stalactite you've got to bring down in order to reach the Savestation just next to Frost Cave i.e. not having to climb Transport to Magmoor Caverns South every time you fail at entering the Frost Cave SW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWr49XATCYY

T3

2014-04-05 07:21:08 pm

you can reach the save station without knocking down the stalactite by dashing from the upper most platform with the boxes.

Daryoshi

2014-04-05 07:34:20 pm

loving low%

... That is great! Have you just come up w/ this or have you kept that knowledge back cuz you thought it ain't of no use? LOL you're always coming up w/ ideas so simple/ straightforward that I would have had to come up with on my own. laugh new

Nonetheless, it'd be cool to have an alternative to enter the SW w/out having to use the stalactite, i.e. an alternative for a file on which the stalactite is brought down and saved over... Like on my former 21% file I'm aiming for the max item collectible rate under 21% conditions.

Daryoshi

Edit history:

Daryoshi: 2014-05-13 03:22:04 pm

Daryoshi: 2014-05-13 03:21:33 pm

2014-05-13 03:03:28 pm

loving low%

Since early this month I played Metroid Prime SOLELY on Dolphin (ver. 4.0.2); I was busy working on a TAS-like, savestate-using (or better; ABusing) Test-Speedrun of the 21% category. I used the NTSC 0-00 version (of coure) and used the modified standard 21% route (but of course, instead of using Miles route I went like this; ELDER --> SPIRIT --> Thardus Dash (crazy find, T3) --> SUN).
I put more effort into it that I would have thought at first (I played the Frigate without savestates and got to the Ship with 5:15 - 5:20 in-game (I timed after finishing the run). Also, the run was done on a NEW file, i.e. Parasite Queen and especially Omega Pirate make for a time-loss of many seconds. So yeah, just subtract 1 in-game minute after you guessed my final in-game time.

And now guess and post your guess here so I can see how good my TAS-like speedrun is in fact.

I made a "proof pic" that I'll post after a few guesses (despite it not proofing anything since modifying that is easy). I did not record the run since it was "just" a Test-Speedrun anyway, but I won't do another 21% run on Dolphin - at least as long as there's no MAJOR route change.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did some testing about 21% on emulator and here are some things I found out:

A) Phendrana's Edge
The last 2 things you've got to do in a NSJ/21% climbing Phendrana's Edge under NSJ/ 21% conditions is to pull of a DBJ to the Grapple Point and then dash off of the glider. I found out an alternative for this: You can get to the corner nearest to the Plasma Beam door and nearest to the Grapple Point. Then turn around and put on the Scan Visor. Turn right until you can just about dash off of the Grapple Point. It has to be a high dash (i.e. press L/B for as few frames as possible) and you've got to bend it backwards as much as possible. If done correctly, you'll get that "upwards/ Ghetto" effect needed for the LEFTWARDS SJF. But this dash isn't that hard; it should be a fair amount easier than the DBJ + dash method T3 used in his video; the DBJ onto the Grapple Point is just too weird. The dash off of the glider after the DBJ is easy if you bend it backwards as much as possible; but you could theoretically mess it up and fall down before you even get to scan the glider - if you're not totally careful...

B) Ventilation Shaft
You guys remember the "easier" method for getting the Halfpipe Bomb Jump (HPBJ) done? It was a thing StefanvanDijeke came up with in order to get started with his (PAL) 22% SS. The idea is to lay the last 2 bombs in the HPBJ as close together (time- and place-wise) so that you get some Bomb Jump similar to a UBJ. C.f. most people thought that the HBJ-like method (used by most people for the 22% Vent Shaft HPBJ) was the ONLY method Vent Shaft could be done under 21% conditions. Turns out it's also possible with a UBJ-like HPBJ, though the bombs and the placement of the Morph Ball itself (down at the actual halfpipe) have to be so ungodly well-timed that it's more of a novelty. I.e. the old way to do 21% Vent Shaft - in-bounds - is to stick to the HBJ-like method for doing the HPBJ. And as we all know, T3 recently found out that we can get into a SW in Omega Research, so... But really, the 21% HPBJ would be soooo frustrating without savestates since you'll actually get one of those annoying Instant Unmorphs that you can't jump again afterwards, forcing you down if you don't unmorph in a 1-5 frames window. (1-5 frames is just guessed. but it's definetly a very tight time window. Also, those last 2 bombs have to be set in a very specific time apart; still touching each other a bit, but also not too close together or it will count as just 1 bomb. Yeah, as I said, it's just a novelty...

C) Metroid Prime's 2nd form in 3 pools while lacking both; Thermal Visor and Charge Beam
This has nothing to to with NSJ or 21% in particular, but for all low% runs that skip both those upgrades. I just wanted to confirm that it is indeed possible to finish the fight with 3 pools, but it's not recommended for on-console runs: It's extremely close. You know how tight any% 2 pool is? Yeah, so this is FAR more difficult; getting more than 30% (THIRTY %) off of his health while he's invisible is almost impossible on-console. And I've got to say that I didn't manage to deal him 40% damage; just a bit more than 35%. And you can calculate: about 35% + about 30% + about 35% is in fact very tight. The maximum I got were 6 (SIX) additional Phazon shots on the 3rd pool after the HP were = 0. Now I know why nobody has ever pulled that off on-console.

D) Elite Control
I tested if it was possible to skip the Elite Pirate trigger in that room when visiting the Phazon Mines for the 1st time (thus: also for the 2nd time), but to no avail. It doesn't seem to be possible.

E) Twin Fires Tunnel
On the way to Burning Trail (enter SW --> Floaty Jump --> Plasma Beam) with the "pre-Floaty Jump" from Magmoor Workstation getting Plasma Beam, it's possible to get through Magmoor Caverns without having to lose much time for getting health refills and without having to reload Twin Fires (--> Puddles --> Dash point for avoiding to take too much/ any damage from lava in Twin Fires Tunnel) by jumping into the lava (since you have nothing to dash off) and then you can make it with a SINGLE bomb + unmorph to the other side, if you get to the correct spot. The spot is at the far left of that "bridge" under the surface of the lava. As a side note; it's very annoying to get through Magmoor Caverns under 21% conditions if you go for speed.

F) Phazon Processing Center
This is the worst room for TASing 21%. So many enemies. Such an annyoing moving platform (at the top of the room) you always have to wait for if you don't happen to get a perfect timing. And then there's that annoying Mega Turret at the very top of the room. Side note: You can use that as a lock-on point for a Combat Dash and make use of the technique called "bunny-hopping" in order not to take any damage in the Phazon-filled room just after PPC.

G)
I still don't know if the 21% Magmoor Workstation SW is possible by clipping through that garbage you get to see while doing the lava-cooling-involving puzzle. If it was, it would make for many minutes saved. Or another route change could be interesting; the one that recently was proposed by Metroid001.

H), I), J)...
Just ask if you want to know some more about / in any room in particular that could lead to something interesting/ helpful. I'll look if the lower part of Great Tree Hall is indeed possible (it should). Then we'd still have the problem of escaping Geo Core after having acquired Plasma Beam before Wave Beam (and before Ice Beam). Some insane Bomb Jumping would be required, but it's possible with using Space Jump (c.f. petrie911's Plasma Beam before Wave Beam TASed Wallcrawl).

So, that's all for now; thanks for reading. Wink

Since early this month I played Metroid Prime SOLELY on Dolphin (ver. 4.0.2); I was busy working on a TAS-like, savestate-using (or better; ABusing) Test-Speedrun of the 21% category. I used the NTSC 0-00 version (of coure) and used the modified standard 21% route (but of course, instead of using Miles route I went like this; ELDER --> SPIRIT --> Thardus Dash (crazy find, T3) --> SUN).
I put more effort into it that I would have thought at first (I played the Frigate without savestates and got to the Ship with 5:15 - 5:20 in-game (I timed after finishing the run). Also, the run was done on a NEW file, i.e. Parasite Queen and especially Omega Pirate make for a time-loss of many seconds. So yeah, just subtract 1 in-game minute after you guessed my final in-game time.

[color="red"]And now guess and post your guess here[/color] [size="10"]so I can see how good my TAS-like speedrun is in fact[/size].

I made a "proof pic" that I'll post after a few guesses (despite it not proofing anything since modifying that is easy). I did not record the run since it was "just" a Test-Speedrun anyway, but I won't do another 21% run on Dolphin - at least as long as there's no MAJOR route change.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did [b]some[/b] testing about 21% on emulator and here are some things I found out:

A) Phendrana's Edge
The last 2 things you've got to do in a NSJ/21% climbing Phendrana's Edge under NSJ/ 21% conditions is to pull of a DBJ to the Grapple Point and then dash off of the glider. I found out an alternative for this: You can get to the corner nearest to the Plasma Beam door and nearest to the Grapple Point. Then turn around and put on the Scan Visor. Turn right until you can just about dash off of the Grapple Point. It has to be a high dash (i.e. press L/B for as few frames as possible) and you've got to bend it backwards as much as possible. If done correctly, you'll get that "upwards/ Ghetto" effect needed for the LEFTWARDS SJF. But this dash isn't that hard; it should be a fair amount easier than the DBJ + dash method T3 used in his video; the DBJ onto the Grapple Point is just too weird. The dash off of the glider after the DBJ is easy if you bend it backwards as much as possible; but you could theoretically mess it up and fall down before you even get to scan the glider - if you're not totally careful...

B) Ventilation Shaft
You guys remember the "easier" method for getting the Halfpipe Bomb Jump (HPBJ) done? It was a thing StefanvanDijeke came up with in order to get started with his (PAL) 22% SS. The idea is to lay the last 2 bombs in the HPBJ as close together (time- and place-wise) so that you get some Bomb Jump similar to a UBJ. C.f. most people thought that the HBJ-like method (used by most people for the 22% Vent Shaft HPBJ) was the ONLY method Vent Shaft could be done under 21% conditions. Turns out it's also possible with a UBJ-like HPBJ, though the bombs and the placement of the Morph Ball itself (down at the actual halfpipe) have to be so ungodly well-timed that it's more of a novelty. I.e. the old way to do 21% Vent Shaft - in-bounds - is to stick to the HBJ-like method for doing the HPBJ. And as we all know, T3 recently found out that we can get into a SW in Omega Research, so... But really, the 21% HPBJ would be soooo frustrating without savestates since you'll actually get one of those annoying Instant Unmorphs that you can't jump again afterwards, forcing you down if you don't unmorph in a 1-5 frames window. (1-5 frames is just guessed. but it's definetly a very tight time window. Also, those last 2 bombs have to be set in a very specific time apart; still touching each other a bit, but also not too close together or it will count as just 1 bomb. Yeah, as I said, it's just a novelty...

C) Metroid Prime's 2nd form in 3 pools while lacking both; Thermal Visor and Charge Beam
This has nothing to to with NSJ or 21% in particular, but for all low% runs that skip both those upgrades. I just wanted to confirm that it is indeed possible to finish the fight with 3 pools, but it's not recommended for on-console runs: It's extremely close. You know how tight any% 2 pool is? Yeah, so this is FAR more difficult; getting more than 30% (THIRTY %) off of his health while he's invisible is almost impossible on-console. And I've got to say that I didn't manage to deal him 40% damage; just a bit more than 35%. And you can calculate: about 35% + about 30% + about 35% is in fact very tight. The maximum I got were 6 (SIX) additional Phazon shots on the 3rd pool after the HP were = 0. Now I know why nobody has ever pulled that off on-console.

D) Elite Control
I tested if it was possible to skip the Elite Pirate trigger in that room when visiting the Phazon Mines for the 1st time (thus: also for the 2nd time), but to no avail. It doesn't seem to be possible.

E) Twin Fires Tunnel
On the way to Burning Trail (enter SW --> Floaty Jump --> Plasma Beam) with the "pre-Floaty Jump" from Magmoor Workstation getting Plasma Beam, it's possible to get through Magmoor Caverns without having to lose much time for getting health refills and without having to reload Twin Fires (--> Puddles --> Dash point for avoiding to take too much/ any damage from lava in Twin Fires Tunnel) by jumping into the lava (since you have nothing to dash off) and then you can make it with a SINGLE bomb + unmorph to the other side, if you get to the correct spot. The spot is at the far left of that "bridge" under the surface of the lava. As a side note; it's very annoying to get through Magmoor Caverns under 21% conditions if you go for speed.

F) Phazon Processing Center
This is the worst room for TASing 21%. So many enemies. Such an annyoing moving platform (at the top of the room) you always have to wait for if you don't happen to get a perfect timing. And then there's that annoying Mega Turret at the very top of the room. Side note: You can use that as a lock-on point for a Combat Dash and make use of the technique called "bunny-hopping" in order not to take any damage in the Phazon-filled room just after PPC.

G)
I still don't know if the 21% Magmoor Workstation SW is possible by clipping through that garbage you get to see while doing the lava-cooling-involving puzzle. If it was, it would make for many minutes saved. Or another route change could be interesting; the one that recently was proposed by Metroid001.

H), I), J)...
Just ask if you want to know some more about / in any room in particular that could lead to something interesting/ helpful. I'll look if the lower part of Great Tree Hall is indeed possible (it should). Then we'd still have the problem of escaping Geo Core after having acquired Plasma Beam before Wave Beam (and before Ice Beam). Some insane Bomb Jumping would be required, but it's possible with using Space Jump (c.f. petrie911's Plasma Beam before Wave Beam TASed Wallcrawl).

So, that's all for now; thanks for reading. :wink:

T3

2014-05-14 03:38:35 am

Quote:

A) Phendrana's Edge

please post a video of this, this sounds awesome. i've actually been able to do something like this by doing a dash from the last platform to the plasma door but could only ever make it while having space jump (since it gives you a tiny bit more height).

Quote:

D) Elite Control

it's kind of hard but you can actually do this with space jump by doing the same thing you'd do in an any% run except backwards. what purpose would skipping the trigger serve in a 21% run though? if you're fast/lucky enough you could probably avoid the ice pirates entirely.

btw did you do gth inbounds in this run? if so, my guess would probably be something like 2:00 honestly. assuming you did a pretty thorough job with this.

nice information btw.

Daryoshi

Edit history:

Daryoshi: 2014-05-15 03:41:26 pm

Daryoshi: 2014-05-15 09:43:38 am

Daryoshi: 2014-05-15 09:42:47 am

Daryoshi: 2014-05-15 09:42:00 am

Daryoshi: 2014-05-15 09:11:13 am

Daryoshi: 2014-05-15 09:11:00 am

Daryoshi: 2014-05-15 09:10:45 am

2014-05-15 09:10:26 am

loving low%

Quote:

btw did you do gth inbounds in this run? if so, my guess would probably be something like 2:00 honestly. assuming you did a pretty thorough job with this.

You ask if I did GTH in-bounds? Of course I did. O_o I used a few up to several savestates per room, sometimes even more than 10! This is also why your guess (2:00 in-game time) is significantly too high. aiwebs_008

On-console, 2:00 would be AMAZING, but with using savestates and looking for new strats in every larger room, 2:00 (my goal at first, that got obsoleted by 1:50 shortly after starting) is way too high. I went and saved at a savestation from time to time, just too see how well I'm doing; I then loaded the last state and continued as if I hadn't visited the savestation (so I wouldn't end up loosing time; c.f. segmented vs SS). Som yeah, the most amazing "segment" is the last segment; I was pretty surprised to get to see a freaking EIGHT (8) minute segment. Dancing

The 22% hard mode got 19 minutes and the 22% normal mode got 10 minutes. But 22% is without having to Bomb Jump up all of Phazon Core.

Re: GTH in-bounds: It wasn't even worth mentioning that I was able to pull it off then. I actually did both Bomb Jumps on-console with Moon Jump, so, yeah... But you were definetly right as you claimed that GTH > Phendrana's Edge. But I'd say that the last BJ in GTH is even harder than the 2nd last BJ. But that 2nd last BJ is definetly one of the hardest Double Bomb Jumps in the entire game. I always used the "pausing + adjust" - trick for those 2 BJ in GTH.

I still don't know if a laddered HBJ or a laddered UBJ is easier/ more feasible/ less hell-ish for the last BJ in GTH. Smilingjack even did a completely different BJ (some sort of 4BJ IIRC/ AFAIK) they came up back then but that was obsoleted by HBJ/ UBJ some months later. Don't try GTH on-console. I personally think I could do it, but it would take me longer than I want to investigate into it. 100+ hours or something like that LOL. Every1 could do 21% GTH if they were to spend their free-time for several months, but meh... ;-)
I prefer attempting 21% Phendrana's Edge which isn't going to take too long once I start with it, now that I practiced it again, on emulator this time. ;-)

Quote:

Quote:
A) Phendrana's Edge
please post a video of this, this sounds awesome. i've actually been able to do something like this by doing a dash from the last platform to the plasma door but could only ever make it while having space jump (since it gives you a tiny bit more height).

Yeah, it will make that room somewhat more feasible to pull off for a SDA-worthy 21% run. You've probably done what I have done in order to get to the platform with the Plasma Beam door out from that other platform. I'll see if I can make a video in the next time.

Quote:

Quote:
D) Elite Control
it's kind of hard but you can actually do this with space jump by doing the same thing you'd do in an any% run except backwards. what purpose would skipping the trigger serve in a 21% run though? if you're fast/lucky enough you could probably avoid the ice pirates entirely.

OMG I apparently made a mistake even while attempting to avoid the trigger for like 15 minutes. aiwebs_013

Of course there's no need to actually avoid the trigger; if you can knock the Elite Pirate out fast enough and manipulate the Ice Troopers in such a way that you don't get hit a single time, it's only a couple of seconds slower than finding a way to avoid the trigger.
BUT the point is: Even in any% it is actually faster to TRIGGER the Elite Pirate and THEN bypass those yellow-ish Energy Fields and get to Vent Shaft. This could actually be possible and would for sure save time. IF you can get to that pillar you normally use Space Jump (jumping twice) with a dash (height-wise it's tight, I guess).

EDIT for the previous post from the day before yesterday:

G) Waste Disposal
The room located after Main Quarry and before Ore Processing. Oddly enough, water physics are different (i.e. some kind of "absent" --> no Gravity Suit needed). You can use a moderately difficult HBJ to get to that 2nd part (skipping the lower + right part of that room), saving several seconds. This is also useful (theoretically) in 22%, since Boost Ball is needed in order to get from the 1st part to the 2nd part (the large gap between can't be crossed without Boost Ball).

H) Getting Plasma Beam - which method is faster FOR TAS?
Getting to Magmoor Workstation, doing the Magmoor Workstation puzzle, acquiring "pre-Floaty Jump", get to Burning Trail, enter that SW, acquire the "actual Floaty Jump", get back in-bounds, get back to Geo Core and get Plasma Beam after in-bounds Geo Core. Then, use Floaty Jump to speed up the backtrack to the Elevator to Tallon Overworld.
VERSUS
Getting to Magmoor Workstation, NOT doing the Magmoor Workstation puzzle, not acquiring "pre-Floaty Jump", but getting to Burning Trail, enter that SW, but NOT getting the "actual Floaty Jump", NOT getting back in-bounds, but getting to Geo Core via wallcrawling, falling through the unraised roof in Geo Core after having acquired Floaty Jump. Then, you can NOT use Floaty Jump to speed up the backtrack to the Elevator to Tallon Overworld
Orange = DIFFERENCE
Therefore, in order for the wallcrawling through (almost) all of Magmoor Caverns to be FASTER than the other method, the following would have to be timed:
MW puzzle + getting in-bounds after having entered BT SW + backtrack to Geo Core IN-bounds with Floaty Jump + Geo Core in-bounds + Geo Core --> Elevator to Tallon Overworld
VERSUS
faster MW because of no puzzle + faster Burning Trail because of no getting in-bounds + faster (?) Geo Core because of Aether Jumping (I think it's faster than in-bounds with Floaty Jump) + SLOWER backtrack to Geo Core (because of wallcrawling (without Boost Ball and Space Jump, wallcrawling is waaaay slower) vs. in-bounds backtrack with Floaty Jump + SLOWER Geo Core --> Elevator to Tallon Overworld because of no Floaty Jump.
So, if a TAS wallcrawl to Geo Core can be as fast as TAS wallcrawling CAN theoretically be, it would actually be faster than doing the MW puzzle and the other drawbacks that come along with the Floaty Jump method. Also notice; you've to get back to Geo Core from Burning Trail anyway, so if you need 6 minutes for wallcrawling and 4 minutes for doing it in-bounds, it's actually just 2 minutes lost on that "sub-split".

I) Great Tree Hall - LOWER part
I can now confirm (after having looked into this a few months ago with Moon Jump on a 21% file) that it is actually possible. It doesn't even require ANY BJ except DBJ! It does, however, involve 3 Dashes, all of them Scan Dashes (I don't think all 3 could be substituted with Combat Dashes, so for the PAL version, that would include ridiculously hard laddered HBJ/ UBJ or it wouldn't be possible at all. Note: While the DBJ from 2--> 3 and 4-->5 (platform with the spinner for the bars) are both relatively easy, the dashes from 0 --> 1, 1 -->2 and 3 --> 4 are all very hard to actually pull off in a on-console run. They all require you to hit a slope just next to the platform you're aiming to. Especially the dash from 1 --> 2 is extremely hard since the slope you're aiming for is very small and if you don't hit that slope you won't get any chance to get enough height to actually land on the 2nd platform (with the 2nd "seedling").

But now that lower GTH is confirmed, the only thing left that has to be confirmed first before another route (which could very well be possibly faster, I guess) for 21% is confirmed, is exiting Geo Core after having acquired Plasma Beam after the wallcrawl form Burning Trail (i.e. the roof in Geo Core is still up, enabling for a no-Wave- & no-Ice-return into the actual map. c.f. there're only Wave Beam doors around Geo Core, so you immediately have to get out-of-bounds again after having acquired Plasma Beam. This is already confirmed with using Space Jump (i.e. jumping twice). I now must look into that and find out if you can do some crazy BJ-ing in order to do the same under 21% conditions.

[quote]btw did you do gth inbounds in this run? if so, my guess would probably be something like 2:00 honestly. assuming you did a pretty thorough job with this.[/quote]
You ask if I did GTH in-bounds? Of course I did. O_o I used a few up to several savestates per room, sometimes even more than 10! This is also why your guess (2:00 in-game time) is significantly too high. [aiwebs_008] On-console, 2:00 would be AMAZING, but with using savestates and looking for new strats in every larger room, 2:00 (my goal at first, that got obsoleted by 1:50 shortly after starting) is way too high. I went and saved at a savestation from time to time, just too see how well I'm doing; I then loaded the last state and continued as if I hadn't visited the savestation (so I wouldn't end up loosing time; c.f. segmented vs SS). Som yeah, the most amazing "segment" is the last segment; I was pretty surprised to get to see a freaking EIGHT (8) minute segment. :ohyeah_orig: The 22% hard mode got 19 minutes and the 22% normal mode got 10 minutes. But 22% is without having to Bomb Jump up all of Phazon Core.

Re: GTH in-bounds: It wasn't even worth mentioning that I was able to pull it off then. I actually did both Bomb Jumps on-console with Moon Jump, so, yeah... But you were definetly right as you claimed that GTH > Phendrana's Edge. But I'd say that the last BJ in GTH is even harder than the 2nd last BJ. But that 2nd last BJ is definetly one of the hardest Double Bomb Jumps in the entire game. I always used the "pausing + adjust" - trick for those 2 BJ in GTH.

I still don't know if a laddered HBJ or a laddered UBJ is easier/ more feasible/ less hell-ish for the last BJ in GTH. Smilingjack even did a completely different BJ (some sort of 4BJ IIRC/ AFAIK) they came up back then but that was obsoleted by HBJ/ UBJ some months later. Don't try GTH on-console. I personally think I could do it, but it would take me longer than I want to investigate into it. 100+ hours or something like that LOL. Every1 could do 21% GTH if they were to spend their free-time for several months, but meh... ;-)
I prefer attempting 21% Phendrana's Edge which isn't going to take too long once I start with it, now that I practiced it again, on emulator this time. ;-)

[quote]Quote:
A) Phendrana's Edge
please post a video of this, this sounds awesome. i've actually been able to do something like this by doing a dash from the last platform to the plasma door but could only ever make it while having space jump (since it gives you a tiny bit more height).[/quote]
Yeah, it will make that room somewhat more feasible to pull off for a SDA-worthy 21% run. You've probably done what I have done in order to get to the platform with the Plasma Beam door out from that other platform. I'll see if I can make a video in the next time.

[quote]Quote:
D) Elite Control
it's kind of hard but you can actually do this with space jump by doing the same thing you'd do in an any% run except backwards. what purpose would skipping the trigger serve in a 21% run though? if you're fast/lucky enough you could probably avoid the ice pirates entirely.[/quote]
OMG I apparently made a mistake even while attempting to avoid the trigger for like 15 minutes. [aiwebs_013] Of course there's no need to actually avoid the trigger; if you can knock the Elite Pirate out fast enough and manipulate the Ice Troopers in such a way that you don't get hit a single time, it's only a couple of seconds slower than finding a way to avoid the trigger.
BUT the point is: Even in any% it is actually faster to TRIGGER the Elite Pirate and THEN bypass those yellow-ish Energy Fields and get to Vent Shaft. This could actually be possible and would for sure save time. IF you can get to that pillar you normally use Space Jump (jumping twice) with a dash (height-wise it's tight, I guess).

[color="red"]EDIT for the previous post from the day before yesterday:[/color]

[color="red"]G) Waste Disposal[/color]
The room located after Main Quarry and before Ore Processing. Oddly enough, water physics are different (i.e. some kind of "absent" --> no Gravity Suit needed). You can use a moderately difficult HBJ to get to that 2nd part (skipping the lower + right part of that room), saving several seconds. This is also useful (theoretically) in 22%, since Boost Ball is needed in order to get from the 1st part to the 2nd part (the large gap between can't be crossed without Boost Ball).

[color="red"]H) Getting Plasma Beam - which method is faster FOR TAS?
[/color]Getting to Magmoor Workstation, [color="orange"]doing the Magmoor Workstation puzzle, acquiring "pre-Floaty Jump",[/color] get to Burning Trail, enter that SW, [color="orange"]acquire the "actual Floaty Jump", get back in-bounds, get back to Geo Core and get Plasma Beam after in-bounds Geo Core. Then, use Floaty Jump to speed up the backtrack to the Elevator to Tallon Overworld. [/color]
VERSUS
Getting to Magmoor Workstation, [color="orange"]NOT doing the Magmoor Workstation puzzle, not acquiring "pre-Floaty Jump"[/color], but getting to Burning Trail, enter that SW, [color="orange"]but NOT getting the "actual Floaty Jump", NOT getting back in-bounds, but getting to Geo Core via wallcrawling, falling through the unraised roof in Geo Core after having acquired Floaty Jump. Then, you can NOT use Floaty Jump to speed up the backtrack to the Elevator to Tallon Overworld[/color]
Orange = DIFFERENCE
Therefore, in order for the wallcrawling through (almost) all of Magmoor Caverns to be FASTER than the other method, the following would have to be timed:
MW puzzle + getting in-bounds after having entered BT SW + backtrack to Geo Core IN-bounds with Floaty Jump + Geo Core in-bounds + Geo Core --> Elevator to Tallon Overworld
VERSUS
faster MW because of no puzzle + faster Burning Trail because of no getting in-bounds + faster (?) Geo Core because of Aether Jumping (I think it's faster than in-bounds with Floaty Jump) + SLOWER backtrack to Geo Core (because of wallcrawling (without Boost Ball and Space Jump, wallcrawling is waaaay slower) vs. in-bounds backtrack with Floaty Jump + SLOWER Geo Core --> Elevator to Tallon Overworld because of no Floaty Jump.
So, if a TAS wallcrawl to Geo Core can be as fast as TAS wallcrawling CAN theoretically be, it would actually be faster than doing the MW puzzle and the other drawbacks that come along with the Floaty Jump method. Also notice; you've to get back to Geo Core from Burning Trail anyway, so if you need 6 minutes for wallcrawling and 4 minutes for doing it in-bounds, it's actually just 2 minutes lost on that "sub-split".

[color="red"]I) Great Tree Hall - LOWER part[/color]
I can now confirm (after having looked into this a few months ago with Moon Jump on a 21% file) that it is actually possible. It doesn't even require ANY BJ except DBJ! It does, however, involve 3 Dashes, all of them Scan Dashes (I don't think all 3 could be substituted with Combat Dashes, so  for the PAL version, that would include ridiculously hard laddered HBJ/ UBJ or it wouldn't be possible at all. Note: While the DBJ from 2--> 3 and 4-->5 (platform with the spinner for the bars) are both relatively easy, the dashes from 0 --> 1, 1 -->2 and 3 --> 4 are all very hard to actually pull off in a on-console run. They all require you to hit a slope just next to the platform you're aiming to. Especially the dash from 1 --> 2 is extremely hard since the slope you're aiming for is very small and if you don't hit that slope you won't get any chance to get enough height to actually land on the 2nd platform (with the 2nd "seedling").

But now that lower GTH is confirmed, the only thing left that has to be confirmed first before another route (which could very well be possibly faster, I guess) for 21% is confirmed, is exiting Geo Core after having acquired Plasma Beam after the wallcrawl form Burning Trail (i.e. the roof in Geo Core is still up, enabling for a no-Wave- & no-Ice-return into the actual map. c.f. there're only Wave Beam doors around Geo Core, so you immediately have to get out-of-bounds again after having acquired Plasma Beam. This is already confirmed with using Space Jump (i.e. jumping twice). I now must look into that and find out if you can do some crazy BJ-ing in order to do the same under 21% conditions.

Daryoshi

Edit history:

Daryoshi: 2014-05-23 08:15:20 pm

Daryoshi: 2014-05-16 12:57:43 pm

Daryoshi: 2014-05-16 12:50:58 pm

2014-05-16 12:33:15 pm

loving low%

Quote:

i was thinking about a 21% speed run route and here's what i have.. can anyone improve on this?

-missile
-morph
-bomb
-varia/wild
-nature
-plasma wallcrawl
-wave/sun
-strength
-lifegiver
-ice
-world
-power bombs
-use T3's new sw to wallcrawl to front of mines
-x-ray/chozo
-warrior
-phazon suit
-newborn
-exit mines through PPC -> spirit (using frost cave sw or even the inbounds way) and elder
-backtrack to tallon/ship through geo core
-truth/ridley/prime

a couple things: after getting wave beam, it could possibly be faster to return to chozo ruins through the path through triclops pit instead of through root cave (i know root cave is faster if you have sj but could be different without). in that case nature should be gotten AFTER wave, that way you won't get nature then have to backtrack to enter the burning trail sw. this could also change the best time to get artifact of strength-- could be before going into phendrana for wave, or coming out. this just needs some small testing

for artifact of warrior, it could possibly be faster to just wallcrawl there the back way before leaving the mines for x/ray/chozo, or to go in the normal front way after getting xray. that would need some small testing too. but i think this wallcrawl should be way faster than exiting the mines through PPC and going through magmoor and climbing crashed frigate to get back around to xray and chozo

The whole post by metdood1. Who is this guys that only posts this 1 post and ward never seen again?! Coming up with such an interesting route idea and staying completely out of the forum...

Well, since the lower part of GTH is now confirmed possible (by me), the only thing left for that route to work would be getting Plasma Beam without Wave AND skipping Ice Beam at the same
time. There's a TAS wallcrawl done by petrie911:

He uses Ice Beam to get "door warped" back in-bounds. The problem with the proposed route is, that IBBF isn't actually done before going for the Plasma Beam wallcrawl. IBBF would be slow in that route, but on the other hand, IBBF is required since Plasma Beam can't be gotten without Ice Beam since there's a Ice/Plasma door between Geo Core and Plasma Processing.
That wouldn't be that much of a problem if the other side of the Ice Beam door was a regular, blue door. You remember the old way how IBBF was done? There's the room between Furnace and Crossway with the Wave Beam door on the side we get to see first. Luckily though, the other side of that Wave Beam door is a regular, blue door (on Crossway itself), enabling for handling the problem like this; "secretize" the room you want to load and then simply walk over the door from above. That works as long as you have already acquired the Beam for the opposite side of the door. (Or the one on your side, but that's Ice Beam on Geo Core). So, yeah, since Plasma Processing has got a Plasma Beam door, that procedure doesn't work; if it was a regular, blue door, we could get Plasma as 1st Beam (yeah, Power Beam can't be lost nor acquired, so it doesn't count for the ranking of acquiring). I'll look if I can make a wonder happen but I very seriously doubt that I can change anything to make that interesting route possible.
EDIT: Screw it, I made an embarassing mistake while thinking about this: Ice Beam isn't required in order to get Plasma Beam as 1st beam (before Wave Beam AND before Ice Beam), as Metroid177 states just below that post you're reading right now. END OF EDIT

J)
IF the wallcrawl method actually turned out to be possiblly faster (in a TAS) than the Floaty Jump method, there's something new to consider:
Monitor Station --> Warrior Shrine --> Fiery Shores, right? Well, as I was having some fun with Moon Jump some months ago, I CLEARLY remember that the other way is also possible (i.e. MS --> Shore Tunnel --> FS) without the game crashing. I made MS go black and jumped around with Moon Jump (while being in Shore Tunnel). I can't remember when I heard the Wii making noises (i.e. where the loading/ trigger point is located), but it might as well be at a horribly annoying place to rech without Moon Jump (especially without the Space Jump Boots). Fiery Shores got secretized and as I walked over the door connecting to that room, it loaded properly.
Oddly enough, I couldn't find the trigger anymore on emulator on an actual 21% file (without Moon Jump or any other codes activated). But this might as well just have been the case because I didn't spend too much time on it and if the trigger point actually turns out to be in an area where you'd take damage from the lava, you could screw it anyway for doing it in a on-console run.

K)
If you didn't know, the time/ place the Power Bomb maze gets generated is earlier than I thougt (I thought it was during that little cutscene after the Invisible Drone). Well, it turns out to be just as/ while the room "Central Dynamo" (where the maze is located) loads. I.e. it starts loading after having rolled through about halfway of the previous room.
Note: I may be mistaken on that whole point, so don't rely too much on it (well YOU can't change it anyway muahahaha).

L)
The room between Central Dynamo and Metroid Quarantine A can actually be passed without Boost Ball WITHOUT taking ANY damage while skipping ALL 4 turrets and just going the fastest way. I even once did make it across that room that way on a 22%/21% file, but with taking damage. Truth is, with enough attempts, it's actually possible without taking any damage at all.

M)
After Vent Shaft, if you mess up PPC and remember that when you accidentally blow up the crates which used to enable a BSJ on top of them and then you could have made it back to the middle floor again with another BJ, a HBJ against the wall on your left? Well, you're actually not completely screwed, since the're some other platforms you can climb. A BSJ in order to get to the first one. Then do a hard DBJ. Then do another DBJ, but this one is really hard. But it's possible - in theory. Since you take damage from the Phazon, it's important to remember not to use a missile while being near those nice, helpful crates. Especially on 21% SS OMFG that would suck. Yeah, so the original method is way easier than the one I described, but it might be helpful for T3 if he finds the power to attempt 21% SS - AGAIN! After having died on Meta Ridley

[quote]i was thinking about a 21% speed run route and here's what i have.. can anyone improve on this?

-missile
-morph
-bomb
-varia/wild
-nature
-plasma wallcrawl
-wave/sun
-strength
-lifegiver
-ice
-world
-power bombs
-use T3's new sw to wallcrawl to front of mines
-x-ray/chozo
-warrior
-phazon suit 
-newborn
-exit mines through PPC -> spirit (using frost cave sw or even the inbounds way) and elder
-backtrack to tallon/ship through geo core 
-truth/ridley/prime

a couple things: after getting wave beam, it could possibly be faster to return to chozo ruins through the path through triclops pit instead of through root cave (i know root cave is faster if you have sj but could be different without). in that case nature should be gotten AFTER wave, that way you won't get nature then have to backtrack to enter the burning trail sw. this could also change the best time to get artifact of strength-- could be before going into phendrana for wave, or coming out. this just needs some small testing

for artifact of warrior, it could possibly be faster to just wallcrawl there the back way before leaving the mines for x/ray/chozo, or to go in the normal front way after getting xray. that would need some small testing too. but i think this wallcrawl should be way faster than exiting the mines through PPC and going through magmoor and climbing crashed frigate to get back around to xray and chozo
[/quote]
The whole post by metdood1. Who is this guys that only posts this 1 post and ward never seen again?! Coming up with such an interesting route idea and staying completely out of the forum...

Well, since the lower part of GTH is now confirmed possible (by me), the only thing left for that route to work would be getting Plasma Beam without Wave AND skipping Ice Beam at the same
 time. There's a TAS wallcrawl done by petrie911:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgW_qSPmRIo
[s]He uses Ice Beam to get "door warped" back in-bounds. The problem with the proposed route is, that IBBF isn't actually done before going for the Plasma Beam wallcrawl. IBBF would be slow in that route, but on the other hand, IBBF is required since Plasma Beam can't be gotten without Ice Beam since there's a Ice/Plasma door between Geo Core and Plasma Processing.
That wouldn't be that much of a problem if the other side of the Ice Beam door was a regular, blue door. You remember the old way how IBBF was done? There's the room between Furnace and Crossway with the Wave Beam door on the side we get to see first. Luckily though, the other side of that Wave Beam door is a regular, blue door (on Crossway itself), enabling for handling the problem like this; "secretize" the room you want to load and then simply walk over the door from above. That works as long as you have already acquired the Beam for the opposite side of the door. (Or the one on your side, but that's Ice Beam on Geo Core). So, yeah, since Plasma Processing has got a Plasma Beam door, that procedure doesn't work; if it was a regular, blue door, we could get Plasma as 1st Beam (yeah, Power Beam can't be lost nor acquired, so it doesn't count for the ranking of acquiring). I'll look if I can make a wonder happen but I very seriously doubt that I can change anything to make that interesting route possible.[/s]
EDIT: Screw it, I made an embarassing mistake while thinking about this: Ice Beam isn't required in order to get Plasma Beam as 1st beam (before Wave Beam AND before Ice Beam), as Metroid177 states just below that post you're reading right now. END OF EDIT

J)
IF the wallcrawl method actually turned out to be possiblly faster (in a TAS) than the Floaty Jump method, there's something new to consider:
Monitor Station --> Warrior Shrine --> Fiery Shores, right? Well, as I was having some fun with Moon Jump some months ago, I CLEARLY remember that the other way is also possible (i.e. MS --> Shore Tunnel --> FS) without the game crashing. I made MS go black and jumped around with Moon Jump (while being in Shore Tunnel). I can't remember when I heard the Wii making noises (i.e. where the loading/ trigger point is located), but it might as well be at a horribly annoying place to rech without Moon Jump (especially without the Space Jump Boots). Fiery Shores got secretized and as I walked over the door connecting to that room, it loaded properly.
Oddly enough, I couldn't find the trigger anymore on emulator on an actual 21% file (without Moon Jump or any other codes activated). But this might as well just have been the case because I didn't spend too much time on it and if the trigger point actually turns out to be in an area where you'd take damage from the lava, you could screw it anyway for doing it in a on-console run.

K)
If you didn't know, the time/ place the Power Bomb maze gets generated is earlier than I thougt (I thought it was during that little cutscene after the Invisible Drone). Well, it turns out to be just as/ while the room "Central Dynamo" (where the maze is located) loads. I.e. it starts loading after having rolled through about halfway of the previous room.
Note: I may be mistaken on that whole point, so don't rely too much on it [size="10"](well YOU can't change it anyway muahahaha).[/size]

L)
The room between Central Dynamo and Metroid Quarantine A can actually be passed without Boost Ball WITHOUT taking ANY damage while skipping ALL 4 turrets and just going the fastest way. I even once did make it across that room that way on a 22%/21% file, but with taking damage. Truth is, with enough attempts, it's actually possible without taking any damage at all.

M)
After Vent Shaft, if you mess up PPC and remember that when you accidentally blow up the crates which used to enable a BSJ on top of them and then you could have made it back to the middle floor again with another BJ, a HBJ against the wall on your left? Well, you're actually not completely screwed, since the're some other platforms you can climb. A BSJ in order to get to the first one. Then do a hard DBJ. Then do another DBJ, but this one is really hard. But it's possible - in theory. Since you take damage from the Phazon, it's important to remember not to use a missile while being near those nice, helpful crates. [size="10"]Especially on 21% SS OMFG that would suck.[/size] Yeah, so the original method is way easier than the one I described, but it might be helpful for T3 if he finds the power to attempt 21% SS - AGAIN! [size="10"]After having died on Meta Ridley[/size]

Daryoshi

Edit history:

Daryoshi: 2014-05-17 09:15:03 am

Daryoshi: 2014-05-17 09:14:26 am

Daryoshi: 2014-05-17 09:13:29 am

Daryoshi: 2014-05-17 09:13:14 am

2014-05-17 09:12:34 am

loving low%

Quoting myself:

Quote:

I was busy working on a TAS-like, savestate-using (or better; ABusing) Test-Speedrun of the 21% category.

Quoting myself again:

Quote:

And now guess and post your guess here so I can see how good my TAS-like speedrun is in fact. I made a "proof pic" that I'll post after a few guesses (despite it not proofing anything since modifying that is easy). I did not record the run since it was "just" a Test-Speedrun anyway, but I won't do another 21% run on Dolphin - at least as long as there's no MAJOR route change.

Quoting T3:

Quote:

btw did you do gth inbounds in this run? if so, my guess would probably be something like 2:00 honestly. assuming you did a pretty thorough job with this.

Well, screw it, if even T3 is so far away with his guess, no1 would have guessed well, I guess. ;-)
So, yeah, let's all get surprised by how fast 21% can be completed with 20-30 hours put into making a savestate-abusing speedrun using the NTSC 0-00 version and playing on a NEW file and playing the whole Frigate normally, without savestates. I don't think more than 3 minutes could be improved without new 21% speedtrick. (I'd still like to know how the PPC alternative by Metroid177 works out; finally gonna make a video about that, eh? Or at least give me a detailed descrption, would be nice)

Quoting myself:
[quote]I was busy working on a TAS-like, savestate-using (or better; ABusing) Test-Speedrun of the 21% category.[/quote]
Quoting myself again:
[quote]And now guess and post your guess here so I can see how good my TAS-like speedrun is in fact. I made a "proof pic" that I'll post after a few guesses (despite it not proofing anything since modifying that is easy). I did not record the run since it was "just" a Test-Speedrun anyway, but I won't do another 21% run on Dolphin - at least as long as there's no MAJOR route change.[/quote]
Quoting T3:
[quote]btw did you do gth inbounds in this run? if so, my guess would probably be something like 2:00 honestly. assuming you did a pretty thorough job with this.[/quote]
Well, screw it, if even T3 is so far away with his guess, no1 would have guessed well, I guess. ;-)
So, yeah, let's all get surprised by how fast 21% can be completed with 20-30 hours put into making a savestate-abusing speedrun using the NTSC 0-00 version and playing on a NEW file and playing the whole Frigate normally, without savestates. I don't think more than 3 minutes could be improved without new 21% speedtrick. (I'd still like to know how the PPC alternative by Metroid177 works out; finally gonna make a video about that, eh? Or at least give me a detailed descrption, would be nice)

attachment:

GM8E01-38.png

Metroid177

Edit history:

Metroid177: 2014-05-18 01:41:30 am

2014-05-18 01:33:58 am

On that PPC alternative...
First of all, after performing the scan dash (or annoying l-jump) that leads you to the upper part of ppc, you have 3 annoying as hell dbjs that I always mess up or the camera gets in my way some how, and I always ended up falling all the way to the bottom of the room.
However, I have found that you can skip doing all that with one really good ubj. The spot where you want to perform the ubj is kind of hard to describe. You know how when skipping spider ball, you alternate between single and double jumps on the frame that is sticking out of the wall? Well, there's another frame just like that on the other side of ppc. This is where you want the perform the ubj. Once you make it, you can do a simple l-jump and the next to dbjs in that room are a piece of cake. Also, in the room after ppc, with all that phazon, you can actually perform a really good l-jump to land on a small ledge sticking out of the wall, and from there, jump to the platform in the middle of the room. This is very useful for hard 21%, because of how much damage you take from the phazon.
Seriously, doing ppc the way everyone else does it took me months to get past. Fuck that room.
Would like to make a vid of it, (and of a ton of other stuff) hopefully I kind get around to this now, since it's summer break and I really have no excuse now.
Sorry if I am misunderstanding, but you can def get plasma before any of the other beams. You can ceiling warp in to plasma processing.

On that PPC alternative...
First of all, after performing the scan dash (or annoying l-jump) that leads you to the upper part of ppc, you have 3 annoying as hell dbjs that I always mess up or the camera gets in my way some how, and I always ended up falling all the way to the bottom of the room.  
However, I have found that you can skip doing all that with one really good ubj.  The spot where you want to perform the ubj is kind of hard to describe.  You know how when skipping spider ball, you alternate between single and double jumps on the frame that is sticking out of the wall?  Well, there's another frame just like that on the other side of ppc.  This is where you want the perform the ubj.  Once you make it, you can do a simple l-jump and the next to dbjs in that room are a piece of cake.  Also, in the room after ppc, with all that phazon, you can actually perform a really good l-jump to land on a small ledge sticking out of the wall, and from there, jump to the platform in the middle of the room.  This is very useful for hard 21%, because of how much damage you take from the phazon.  
Seriously, doing ppc the way everyone else does it took me months to get past.  Fuck that room.  
Would like to make a vid of it, (and of a ton of other stuff) hopefully I kind get around to this now, since it's summer break and I really have no excuse now.  
Sorry if I am misunderstanding, but you can def get plasma before any of the other beams.  You can ceiling warp in to plasma processing.

Daryoshi

Edit history:

Daryoshi: 2014-05-18 07:23:05 am

2014-05-18 07:22:55 am

loving low%

Quote:

On that PPC alternative...

Wait what? This sound far more difficult?! I agree the 2nd and the 3rd DBJ ou tof those 5 are tricky, but doing a "really good UBJ + L jump" doesn't exactly sound as it'd be (significantly) easier. Also, for the 2nd DBJ (the tightest one), you can line yourself up in such a way that you will fall back but only at the pillar where you have to do the 1st DBJ again and again until you make the 1st + 2nd DBJ continuously. But your alternative could at least be a bit faster than the original method. Or even faster PLUS easier, but I doubt it's easier until I've seen it done in a video... ;-)

Quote:

Also, in the room after ppc, with all that phazon, you can actually perform a really good l-jump to land on a small ledge sticking out of the wall, and from there, jump to the platform in the middle of the room. This is very useful for hard 21%, because of how much damage you take from the phazon.

On normal mode, it's possible to get dealt only 8 (eight) units if you do it the normal way but almost perfectly well. I guess sub 30 damage on hard mode is well-possible on-console. But I agree, it's easy to mess up - I survived with 1 single unit left (check out my
"Metroid Prime - 21% Hard Mode Demonstration - Part 8" on YT if you want to).
You can clear that room without taking any damage if you lock-on the Mega Turret (gotta freeze it all few seconds if you're not playing on Dolphin with savestates). Then do a backwards-bended dash and use the bunnyhop-technique in order to maintain your sideways speed. It's very tricky, but worth mentioning.

Quote:

Sorry if I am misunderstanding, but you can def get plasma before any of the other beams. You can ceiling warp in to plasma processing.

Yeah, by now I've found out that you can load any rooms you've previously "secretized" even if you do not yet have the beam that would be required. I've done that without thinking about it during all IBBF-wallcrawl. That's so embarassing right now... -.-

But oh well, I looked into acquiring Plasma Beam as first beam in 21% and it is possible. BUT: There doesn't seem to be any way of getting back out-of bounds afterwards. I spent 1.5 hours in Geo Core, trying to do crazily outwards-laddered Bomb Jumps, but nothing helped...
And I thought the lower part of GTH was the bigger problem for the new 21% route that was proposed by metdood1. Turns out lower part of GTH is possible but Plasma before Wave seems to be not.

Any help looking into/ testing if getting BACK in-bounds in 21% Geo Core with unraised roof (of course) is possible, is appreciated.

[quote]On that PPC alternative...[/quote]
Wait what? This sound far more difficult?! I agree the 2nd and the 3rd DBJ ou tof those 5 are tricky, but doing a "really good UBJ + L jump" doesn't exactly sound as it'd be (significantly) easier. Also, for the 2nd DBJ (the tightest one), you can line yourself up in such a way that you will fall back but only at the pillar where you have to do the 1st DBJ again and again until you make the 1st + 2nd DBJ continuously. But your alternative could at least be a bit faster than the original method. Or even faster PLUS easier, but I doubt it's easier until I've seen it done in a video... ;-)

[quote] Also, in the room after ppc, with all that phazon, you can actually perform a really good l-jump to land on a small ledge sticking out of the wall, and from there, jump to the platform in the middle of the room.  This is very useful for hard 21%, because of how much damage you take from the phazon.[/quote] 
On normal mode, it's possible to get dealt only 8 (eight) units if you do it the normal way but almost perfectly well. I guess sub 30 damage on hard mode is well-possible on-console. But I agree, it's easy to mess up - I survived with 1 single unit left (check out my
"Metroid Prime - 21% Hard Mode Demonstration - Part 8" on YT if you want to).
You can clear that room without taking any damage if you lock-on the Mega Turret (gotta freeze it all few seconds if you're not playing on Dolphin with savestates). Then do a backwards-bended dash and use the bunnyhop-technique in order to maintain your sideways speed. It's very tricky, but worth mentioning.
 
[quote]Sorry if I am misunderstanding, but you can def get plasma before any of the other beams.  You can ceiling warp in to plasma processing.[/quote]
Yeah, by now I've found out that you can load any rooms you've previously "secretized" even if you do not yet have the beam that would be required. I've done that without thinking about it during all IBBF-wallcrawl. That's so embarassing right now... -.-

But oh well, I looked into acquiring Plasma Beam as first beam in 21% and it is possible. BUT: There doesn't seem to be any way of getting back out-of bounds afterwards. I spent 1.5 hours in Geo Core, trying to do crazily outwards-laddered Bomb Jumps, but nothing helped...
And I thought the lower part of GTH was the bigger problem for the new 21% route that was proposed by metdood1. Turns out lower part of GTH is possible but Plasma before Wave seems to be not.

[color="red"]Any help looking into/ testing if getting BACK in-bounds in 21% Geo Core [b]with unraised roof (of course)[/b] is possible, is appreciated.[/color]

Daryoshi

2014-05-24 06:11:14 am

loving low%

Daryoshi

2014-06-03 05:19:36 pm

loving low%

rekameohs

2014-06-03 09:03:57 pm

Anywhere, everywhere

"21% SS attempt"

Has science gone too far?

Really though, super impressive stuff man.

Daryoshi

Edit history:

Daryoshi: 2014-06-15 06:29:50 am

2014-06-15 05:46:09 am

loving low%

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9RVzn-OgslOFBO-2PfeO6Jw5tjTYx0wF
This is my 5th attempt; after my 2nd attempt I've decided to do commentary alongside. Hope it helps for certain tricks and isn't found to be annoying or so. ;-)

1st attempt: Died against Metroid Prime
2nd: Died in Twin Fires Tunnel on 2nd-last visit; before going to get the 3 Artfifacts in Phendrana Drifts.
3rd: Messed up the unmorph of the IBJ in Sun Tower (well, I could've wallcrawled but holy crap, restarting is easier and faster anyway)
4th: Died in Twin Fires Tunnel on 1st visit; after leaving the Mines for the 1st time.
5th: DIed against Omega Pirate.

PS: IMPORTANT:

I've found out you can do the following, saving you much trouble in Magmoor Caverns:
- Get Wave Beam; then, get to Ruined Courtyard, climb it with the regular 21% method for doing this (not too hard) and get into Pirate Labs from the front.
- Get to Research Lab Hydra and deactivate the force field. Go back and leave the Pirate Labs the way you entered it (climbing Observatory is impossible in 21% and in NSJ - w/ BoostBall
- Continue playing until you've gotten Ice Beam and the Power Bomb and have left the Mines for the 1st time. You'll end up at Magmoor Workstation.
- Every time you get to Magmoor Workstation and usually would get to the Elevator to Tallon Overworld; DON'T. Just get to the Elevator to Phendrana Drifts South (the elevator is just next to Magmoor Workstation) and climb that elavator room with the Spider Track (called Transport to Magmoor Caverns South, IIRC). Then, in Frozen Pike, jump down to the first Wave Beam door and enter the Pirate Labs backwards.
- Go to Control Tower and further to Observatory. Jump down and approach the Wave Beam door. It MUST get locked FIRST. THEN, AFTERWARDS, kill all the pirates. Then just pass and - since you deactivated the force field in Research Lab Hydra first, you'll be able to leave the Pirate Labs and get to Ice Ruins West and then to Phendrana Shorelines and thus to the OTHER Elevator to Magmoor Caverns. You'll then end up just next to Monitor Station (not to confuse with Magmoor Workstation). From there, you can easily get to the Elevator to Tallon Overworld.

TADAAA; no need to to that horribly dangerous part in Magmoor Caverns (Twin Fires and Twin Fires Tunnel). If you wallcrawl form Burning Trail to Plasma Beam, you really don't have to do TF + TFT ZERO times. If you get pre-FJ in Magmoor Workstation and want to get Floaty Jump in Burning Trail and then get back to Geothermal Core IN-BOUNDS, with Floaty Jump; you'll have to get to do TF + TFT ONCE without Floaty Jump - with Floaty Jump, it's very easy to get past those rooms and not so dangerous at all. Very Happy

I'm so glad I found a way to skip that unnecessary additional difficulty/ danger iN Magmoor Caverns. 2 out of 5 attempts got Game Over because of that part, so, yeah...

PPS: I found out the HBJ in Great Tree Chamber, in order to get into that SW, is easier if you hold the Main Stick a bit more to the left than you might actually think. Just listen to my commentary in the middle of Part 2 out of 3.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9RVzn-OgslOFBO-2PfeO6Jw5tjTYx0wF
This is my 5th attempt; after my 2nd attempt I've decided to do commentary alongside. Hope it helps for certain tricks and isn't found to be annoying or so. ;-)

1st attempt: Died against Metroid Prime
2nd: Died in Twin Fires Tunnel on 2nd-last visit; before going to get the 3 Artfifacts in Phendrana Drifts.
3rd: Messed up the unmorph of the IBJ in Sun Tower (well, I could've wallcrawled but holy crap, restarting is easier and faster anyway)
4th: Died in Twin Fires Tunnel on 1st visit; after leaving the Mines for the 1st time.
5th: DIed against Omega Pirate.

PS: IMPORTANT:

I've found out you can do the following, saving you much trouble in Magmoor Caverns:
- Get Wave Beam; then, get to Ruined Courtyard, climb it with the regular 21% method for doing this (not too hard) and get into Pirate Labs from the front.
- Get to Research Lab Hydra and deactivate the force field. Go back and leave the Pirate Labs the way you entered it (climbing Observatory is impossible in 21% and in NSJ - w/ BoostBall
- Continue playing until you've gotten Ice Beam and the Power Bomb and have left the Mines for the 1st time. You'll end up at Magmoor Workstation.
- Every time you get to Magmoor Workstation and usually would get to the Elevator to Tallon Overworld; DON'T. Just get to the Elevator to Phendrana Drifts South (the elevator is just next to Magmoor Workstation) and climb that elavator room with the Spider Track (called Transport to Magmoor Caverns South, IIRC). Then, in Frozen Pike, jump down to the first Wave Beam door and enter the Pirate Labs backwards.
- Go to Control Tower and further to Observatory. Jump down and approach the Wave Beam door. It MUST get locked FIRST. THEN, AFTERWARDS, kill all the pirates. Then just pass and - since you deactivated the force field in Research Lab Hydra first, you'll be able to leave the Pirate Labs and get to Ice Ruins West and then to Phendrana Shorelines and thus to the OTHER Elevator to Magmoor Caverns. You'll then end up just next to Monitor Station (not to confuse with Magmoor Workstation). From there, you can easily get to the Elevator to Tallon Overworld.

TADAAA; no need to to that horribly dangerous part in Magmoor Caverns (Twin Fires and Twin Fires Tunnel). If you wallcrawl form Burning Trail to Plasma Beam, you really don't have to do TF + TFT ZERO times. If you get pre-FJ in Magmoor Workstation and want to get Floaty Jump in Burning Trail and then get back to Geothermal Core IN-BOUNDS, with Floaty Jump; you'll have to get to do TF + TFT ONCE without Floaty Jump - with Floaty Jump, it's very easy to get past those rooms and not so dangerous at all. :veryhappy_orig:

I'm so glad I found a way to skip that unnecessary additional difficulty/ danger iN Magmoor Caverns. 2 out of 5 attempts got Game Over because of that part, so, yeah...

PPS: I found out the HBJ in Great Tree Chamber, in order to get into that SW, is easier if you hold the Main Stick a bit more to the left than you might actually think. Just listen to my commentary in the middle of Part 2 out of 3.

Daryoshi

2014-06-29 05:34:18 am

loving low%

Since the Randomizer supposes you know how to get to certain ledges/ areas without Space Jump or even under almost 21% conditions, I'm ready to make a compliation showing how to get as many items as possible without Space Jump, Boost Ball, Spider Ball, Charge Beam, Super Missile, Gravity Suit, Grapple Beam nor Thermal Visor, i.e. under 21% UPGRADES conditions.
I already made such a compilation for just No Space Jump, and got 96% (2 (yes, just two; this game counts in a weird fashion) Missile Expansions (Root Cave and Arbor Chamber) + of course Space Jump missing).
Now, since the Randomizer requires you to get MANY things done - on average, I mean - before you get to acquire Space Jump, but at the same time, you don't even have neither Boost Ball nor Spider Ball yet, it WILL be very useful for MANY guys to know what the can already do and what they just can't do. I've stopped at 74% without those 8 upgrades you would collect for natural% = 29%. I'll make a compilation of all the little videos I've "collected" in the next week, hopefully. You gotta wait a bit for it, but it'll be worth it, I guess. ;-)

Metroid177

2014-07-01 02:43:47 am

Here's an alternative method for getting through ruined shrine in 21% conditions. I think it's much easier than the old half pipe bomb jump and what Daryoshi does.

Daryoshi

2014-07-01 06:11:04 am

loving low%

Oh wow that's yet another method! I wouldn't be too sure though, that this DBJ + another DBJ turns out to be easier than just doing the single jump in human form to the branch.
But nice alternative for my alternative though! ;-) Can you also make a video from 21% PPC alternative if you're already at it? I think I now know more or less what you were talkking about but I'd be glad to see it once. Have you come up with yet another alternative for anything that is related to 21% or NSJ? Now you can just make a video and don't have to write any long descriptions anymore if you just came up with something you want to show us. ;-)

Metroid177

Edit history:

Metroid177: 2014-07-01 02:11:12 pm

Metroid177: 2014-07-01 02:09:29 pm

2014-07-01 02:08:17 pm

Alternate PPC in 21%
Just watch from 26:11 onward. The UBJ is tricky, but every time you mess it up, you are pretty much guaranteed you will not fall down and have to climb PPC again (watch from 25:32 on to see the failed attempts) As we all know, the final two dbjs are pretty easy.

Edit: I used to think PPC was easily one of the most difficult rooms in 21%. I found it so difficult, I was trying to do lower mines twice to avoid it. Well, not anymore. This UBJ really works for me for some reason.

Daryoshi

2014-07-27 06:46:00 am

loving low%

I also posted this in the Randomizer release topic.

Aruki

2014-07-29 04:48:27 am

I kinda have a theory there might be an alternate Burning Trail SW entrance. The collision around the place you normally clip out looks like this:

So you can see that there's actually no collision above the wall, meaning if you got up there you'd just fall straight through and get oob. Normally you can't do that because the gap between the big dome thing on the ceiling and the wall is small enough that Samus can't fit through it, but the morph ball might. Problem is it's stupidly hard to stay morphed on that metal thing without falling off. Even if it is possible it might not be any easier than the clip method. Would be cool if anyone felt like looking into it to try to figure out if it's possible, though.

On that note, I kinda wonder whether it's even really a clip at all; maybe the game just pops you right above that wall and you fall through?

A-M

2014-07-29 08:24:37 am

Nice find Paraxade !
And thanks for your video Daryoshi, I learned a bunch of things that will be useful for randomizer

Daryoshi

2014-07-29 01:39:27 pm

loving low%

Quote:

And thanks for your video Daryoshi, I learned a bunch of things that will be useful for randomizer

Thank you. I finally got feedback for my work (it took some time to edit so I was kinda like WTF why is nobody respondig to it if it basically helps everyone who is playing on the Randomizer which is basically like every 3rd person active right now). Yeah, anyway, you're welcome. :-)

@ Paraxade: I'm sorry but I personally don't fully understand what you're asking? With using Space Jump, it is possible to get out of bounds above the door leading to the elevator to Phendrana with a, quoting T3 "really hard BSJ". That being said, I still haven't done it and need help on that BSJ for my 22% SS run. Well, off-topic...

But without Space Jump, how do you even want to get that high? I don't understand what your alternate idea for getting out of bounds in Magmoor Workstation in 21%/ NSJ is.

Quote:

On that note, I kinda wonder whether it's even really a clip at all; maybe the game just pops you right above that wall and you fall through?

Were you talking about your idea (which I don't yet understand) or about my idea with the clipping through the wall by Ghetto Jumping into the garbage in the first sub-chamber for the cool-down-the-lava-puzzle for the Energy Tank? Sorry if I'm the only one who doesn't understand what you're saying but I don't understand English perfectly... ;-)

[quote]And thanks for your video Daryoshi, I learned a bunch of things that will be useful for randomizer[/quote]
Thank you. I finally got feedback for my work (it took some time to edit so I was kinda like WTF why is nobody respondig to it if it basically helps everyone who is playing on the Randomizer which is basically like every 3rd person active right now). Yeah, anyway, you're welcome. :-)

@ Paraxade: I'm sorry but I personally don't fully understand what you're asking? With using Space Jump, it is possible to get out of bounds above the door leading to the elevator to Phendrana with a, quoting T3 "really hard BSJ". That being said, I still haven't done it and need help on that BSJ for my 22% SS run. Well, off-topic...

But without Space Jump, how do you even want to get that high? I don't understand what your alternate idea for getting out of bounds in Magmoor Workstation in 21%/ NSJ is.

[quote]On that note, I kinda wonder whether it's even really a clip at all; maybe the game just pops you right above that wall and you fall through?[/quote]
Were you talking about your idea (which I don't yet understand) or about my idea with the clipping through the wall by Ghetto Jumping into the garbage in the first sub-chamber for the cool-down-the-lava-puzzle for the Energy Tank? Sorry if I'm the only one who doesn't understand what you're saying but I don't understand English perfectly... ;-)