Various No Space Jump (NSJ) & 21% topic

2014-02-20 12:50:50 pm

loving low%

Since the "original" 21% was more for SOLVING 21% to be possible in the first place (and pretty abandonned), I thought I'd create a new topic, for 21% route discussion and for alternatives to avoid/ make easier certain 21% rooms/ tricks. Also, I'm interested in No Space Jump (NSJ) and would've liked to list everything related to NSJ/ 21% to be possible/ yet-to-be-DISCUSSED/ yet-to-be-PROVEN/ impossible or somewhat like that. That includes a list of NSJ/ 21% Secret Worlds.

Off-topic: Is there an up-to-date list of all Secret Worlds accessible at ALL (in any%/ 100%)? T3 found some Secret Worlds that are possible without Floaty Jump and several more with Floaty Jump in Tallon Overworld, so I don't expect that there's an up-to-date list...

Also, I'd like it to be possible (for anyone) to watch as many things possible in NSJ/ 21%. For example, I never saw a video of 21% Ice Ruins EAST or 21% (non-TAS, balancing of the rock) Transport to Magmoor Caverns South. Both things had been confrmed by Paraxade while he was executing 21% for the 1st time EVER, but never uploaded anywhere (since he didn't record). I thus decided to make videos of both things just so it was recorded and uploaded on Youtube.

Another reason why I created this topic is because I wanted to "bump" Metroid Prime's m2k2 forum site. 9 days since someone posted something?! C'mon. ;-) Yeah; just wanted to explain. :P

Several videos of mine will follow later today. Feel free to post anything related to NSJ/ 21%. Ideas, videos showing/ explaining anything related to that, proposals for another strat to solve/ bypass certain tricks in hard NSJ/ 21% rooms. Or imporvements/ suggestions for routing either NSJ or 21%. I'd like to see/ read/ discuss anything related to that. Smile

Thread title:

Since the "original" 21% was more for SOLVING 21% to be possible in the first place (and pretty abandonned), I thought I'd create a new topic, for 21% route discussion and for alternatives to avoid/ make easier certain 21% rooms/ tricks. Also, I'm interested in No Space Jump (NSJ) and would've liked to list everything related to NSJ/ 21% to be possible/ yet-to-be-DISCUSSED/ yet-to-be-PROVEN/ impossible or somewhat like that. That includes a list of NSJ/ 21% Secret Worlds.

Off-topic: Is there an up-to-date list of all Secret Worlds accessible at ALL (in any%/ 100%)? T3 found some Secret Worlds that are possible without Floaty Jump and several more with Floaty Jump in Tallon Overworld, so I don't expect that there's an up-to-date list...

Also, I'd like it to be possible (for anyone) to watch as many things possible in NSJ/ 21%. For example, I never saw a video of 21% Ice Ruins EAST or 21% (non-TAS, balancing of the rock) Transport to Magmoor Caverns South. Both things had been confrmed by Paraxade while he was executing 21% for the 1st time EVER, but never uploaded anywhere (since he didn't record). I thus decided to make videos of both things just so it was recorded and uploaded on Youtube.

Another reason why I created this topic is because I wanted to "bump" Metroid Prime's m2k2 forum site. 9 days since someone posted something?! C'mon. ;-) Yeah; just wanted to explain. :P

Several videos of mine will follow later today. Feel free to post anything related to NSJ/ 21%. Ideas, videos showing/ explaining anything related to that, proposals for another strat to solve/ bypass certain tricks in hard NSJ/ 21% rooms. Or imporvements/ suggestions for routing either NSJ or 21%. I'd like to see/ read/ discuss anything related to that. :smile:

Daryoshi

Edit history:

Daryoshi: 2014-02-20 03:02:11 pm

Daryoshi: 2014-02-20 01:29:43 pm

2014-02-20 01:26:31 pm

loving low%

kirbymastah

2014-02-20 01:32:29 pm

osnap

T3

2014-02-20 11:30:28 pm

wow, a lot of new stuff in those videos.

that dash in ruined shrine should be incredibly useful since the bomb jump off the halfpipe was always really weird. nice find with the bsj off the stone toad, never even thought of doing that. also i've tried that jump to the third mushroom in fha but could never make it, so good job figuring out that jump.

Quote:

Is there an up-to-date list of all Secret Worlds accessible at ALL (in any%/ 100%)?

here's a list of all the secret worlds, not including IS secret worlds (since you could probably get one in every room):

1) Main Ventilation Shaft Section A
2) Main Ventilation Shaft Section B
3) Main Ventilation Shaft Section C
4) Main Ventilation Shaft Section D
5) Main Ventilation Shaft Section F

6) Arbor Chamber (FJ)
7) Root Cave
8) Tallon Canyon
9) Landing Site
10) Artifact Temple (FJ)
11) Gully
12) Waterfall Cavern
13) Frigate Crash Site
14) Transport Tunnel C
15) Main Ventilation Shaft Section A
16) Main Ventilation Shaft Section B
17) Main Ventilation Shaft Section C
18) Great Tree Chamber
19) Life Grove

20) Ruins Entrance (FJ)
21) Main Plaza
22) Training Chamber
23) Arboretum
24) Sunchamber
25) Sun Tower (FJ)
26) Gathering Hall
27) Watery Hall
28) Transport to Tallon Overworld East (FJ)

29) Transport to Chozo Ruins North (FJ)
30) Burning Trail
31) Monitor Station (FJ)
32) Transport to Phendrana Drifts North (FJ)
33) Magmoor Workstation
34) Transport to Phendrana Drifts South (FJ)

35) Transport to Magmoor Caverns West
36) Phendrana Shorelines
37) Chozo Ice Temple
38) Chapel of the Elders
39) Ice Ruins East
40) Ruins Entryway
41) Ice Ruins West
42) Phendrana Canyon
43) Ruined Courtyard
44) Observatory
45) Control Tower
46) North Quarantine Cave
47) Transport Access
48) Frost Cave Access
49) Frost Cave
50) Phendrana's Edge

51) Security Access B
52) Omega Research
53) Metroid Quarantine B

wow, a lot of new stuff in those videos.

that dash in ruined shrine should be incredibly useful since the bomb jump off the halfpipe was always really weird. nice find with the bsj off the stone toad, never even thought of doing that. also i've tried that jump to the third mushroom in fha but could never make it, so good job figuring out that jump.

[quote] Is there an up-to-date list of all Secret Worlds accessible at ALL (in any%/ 100%)?[/quote]
here's a list of all the secret worlds, not including IS secret worlds (since you could probably get one in every room):
[hidden]1) Main Ventilation Shaft Section A
2) Main Ventilation Shaft Section B
3) Main Ventilation Shaft Section C
4) Main Ventilation Shaft Section D
5) Main Ventilation Shaft Section F

6) Arbor Chamber (FJ)
7) Root Cave
8) Tallon Canyon
9) Landing Site
10) Artifact Temple (FJ)
11) Gully
12) Waterfall Cavern
13) Frigate Crash Site
14) Transport Tunnel C
15) Main Ventilation Shaft Section A
16) Main Ventilation Shaft Section B
17) Main Ventilation Shaft Section C
18) Great Tree Chamber
19) Life Grove

20) Ruins Entrance (FJ)
21) Main Plaza
22) Training Chamber
23) Arboretum
24) Sunchamber
25) Sun Tower (FJ)
26) Gathering Hall
27) Watery Hall
28) Transport to Tallon Overworld East (FJ)

29) Transport to Chozo Ruins North (FJ)
30) Burning Trail
31) Monitor Station (FJ)
32) Transport to Phendrana Drifts North (FJ)
33) Magmoor Workstation
34) Transport to Phendrana Drifts South (FJ)

35) Transport to Magmoor Caverns West
36) Phendrana Shorelines
37) Chozo Ice Temple
38) Chapel of the Elders
39) Ice Ruins East
40) Ruins Entryway
41) Ice Ruins West
42) Phendrana Canyon
43) Ruined Courtyard
44) Observatory
45) Control Tower
46) North Quarantine Cave
47) Transport Access
48) Frost Cave Access
49) Frost Cave
50) Phendrana's Edge

51) Security Access B
52) Omega Research
53) Metroid Quarantine B[/hidden]

Daryoshi

Edit history:

Daryoshi: 2014-07-21 09:14:18 am

Daryoshi: 2014-04-05 05:55:44 pm

Daryoshi: 2014-02-28 09:33:41 pm

Daryoshi: 2014-02-28 09:26:37 pm

Daryoshi: 2014-02-28 09:26:01 pm

Daryoshi: 2014-02-28 09:25:19 pm

Daryoshi: 2014-02-28 09:20:54 pm

Daryoshi: 2014-02-28 09:20:13 pm

Daryoshi: 2014-02-28 09:19:50 pm

2014-02-28 09:16:08 pm

loving low%

Quote:

here's a list of all the secret worlds, not including IS secret worlds (since you could probably get one in every room):

Oh, thank you! :-) But what do you mean with Infinite Speed Secret Worlds? You can get out of bounds with IS in every room?! Do you mean something like this: http://www.metroid2002.com/secret_worlds_frigate_crash_site.php

---

Also, I couldn't find any video/ description for the Frost Cave ACCESS Secret World (nr. 48 in your list) with ANY upgrades, so would you mind telling me how it's done at all?

---

Is Burning Trail the only Secret World that works the way it works? You know, getting stuck and mashing the main stick to somehow clip through the wall? For a potential route for a run that includes a NO ADDITIONAL Energy Tank some-sort-of VMR (i.e. potential 20%) it would be required to find either something with various SWs in certain Elevator rooms or, the 2nd option, find a SW in Magmoor Caverns where you don't yet need the Wave Beam (NOR Space Jump Boots - which is most likely a clipping-through-the-wall-SW like the Burning Trail SW (this STILL wouldn't completely solve 20% but it would bring us forward with 20% at least). Burning Trail SW was long undiscovered (mainly the no SJB Burning Trail SW found in 2010), so there could also be another SW in Magmoor Caverns that works like this and not like "climb the room until you can jump over the borders/ open roof"?!

---

Which Secret Worlds can be entered in 21%?
Those which should work; correct me if I'm wrong and feel free to add any SWs that have been proven to work in 21%:
(I'm almost certain that there will be others already proven to work for 21% and "another other" ones that we could work out and see if they are possible. At least there are MANY more SWs when you have Grapple Beam, Charge Beam or Boost Ball (or even use Infinite Speed), but on an actual 21% game, I estimate that there aren't many more possible SWs. :-(

1) Main Ventilation Shaft Section A
2) Main Ventilation Shaft Section B
3) Main Ventilation Shaft Section C
4) Main Ventilation Shaft Section D
5) Main Ventilation Shaft Section F

8) Tallon Canyon only useful for no SJB max% in order to get the two LAST Missile Expansions not yet proven to be possible to collect in-bounds, but probably possible; it's about the two Missile Expansions in Root Cave and Arbor Chamber
15) Main Ventilation Shaft Section A
16) Main Ventilation Shaft Section B
17) Main Ventilation Shaft Section C
18) Great Tree Chamber instead of doing Great Tree Hall in-bounds which has NEVER been done consecutvely in 21% AFAIK

24) Sunchamber
26) Gathering Hall instead of doing the HPBJ in Crossway (and the method you chose to climb Reflecting Pool), just do IBBF in 21%
27) Watery Hall
30) Burning Trail instead of doing an alternative 22% (skipping SJB instead of Boost Ball). That was the last piece needed for 21% to finally be solved.

39) Ice Ruins East
41) Ice Ruins West instead of doing Phendrana's Edge in-bounds which has only been done consecutively in 21% by T3 AFAIK
45) Control Tower
49) Frost Cave instead of doing the LONG wallcrawl from Ice Ruins West SW to Phendrana's Edge or doing Phendrana's Edge in-bounds

51) Security Access B
52) Omega Research instead of doing Vent Shaft + Phazon Processing Center in-bounds
53) Metroid Quarantine B instead of climbing Phazon Processing Center again after having beaten Omega Pirate; not really needed

[quote]here's a list of all the secret worlds, not including IS secret worlds (since you could probably get one in every room):[/quote]

Oh, thank you! :-) But what do you mean with Infinite Speed Secret Worlds? You can get out of bounds with IS in every room?! Do you mean something like this: http://www.metroid2002.com/secret_worlds_frigate_crash_site.php

---

Also, I couldn't find any video/ description for the Frost Cave ACCESS Secret World (nr. 48 in your list) with ANY upgrades, so would you mind telling me how it's done at all?

---

Is Burning Trail the only Secret World that works the way it works? You know, getting stuck and mashing the main stick to somehow clip through the wall? For a potential route for a run that includes a NO ADDITIONAL Energy Tank some-sort-of VMR (i.e. potential 20%) it would be required to find either something with various SWs in certain Elevator rooms or, the 2nd option, find a SW in Magmoor Caverns where you don't yet need the Wave Beam (NOR Space Jump Boots  - which is most likely a clipping-through-the-wall-SW like the Burning Trail SW (this STILL wouldn't completely solve 20% but it would bring us forward with 20% at least). Burning Trail SW was long undiscovered (mainly the no SJB Burning Trail SW found in 2010), so there could also be another SW in Magmoor Caverns that works like this and not like "climb the room until you can jump over the borders/ open roof"?!

---

Which Secret Worlds can be entered in 21%?
Those which should work; [color="red"]correct me if I'm wrong and feel free to add any SWs that have been proven to work in 21%[/color]:
(I'm almost certain that there will be others already proven to work for 21% and "another other" ones that we could work out and see if they are possible. At least there are MANY more SWs when you have Grapple Beam, Charge Beam or Boost Ball (or even use Infinite Speed), but on an actual 21% game, I estimate that there aren't many more possible SWs. :-(

[hidden]1) Main Ventilation Shaft Section A
2) Main Ventilation Shaft Section B
3) Main Ventilation Shaft Section C
4) Main Ventilation Shaft Section D
5) Main Ventilation Shaft Section F

8) Tallon Canyon [color="blue"] only useful for no SJB max% in order to get the two LAST Missile Expansions not yet proven to be possible to collect in-bounds, but probably possible; it's about the two Missile Expansions in Root Cave and Arbor Chamber[/color]
15) Main Ventilation Shaft Section A
16) Main Ventilation Shaft Section B
17) Main Ventilation Shaft Section C
18) Great Tree Chamber [color="blue"]instead of doing Great Tree Hall in-bounds which has NEVER been done consecutvely in 21% AFAIK[/color]

24) Sunchamber
26) Gathering Hall [color="blue"]instead of doing the HPBJ in Crossway (and the method you chose to climb Reflecting Pool), just do IBBF in 21%[/color]
27) Watery Hall
30) Burning Trail [color="blue"]instead of doing an alternative 22% (skipping SJB instead of Boost Ball). That was the last piece needed for 21% to finally be solved.[/color]

39) Ice Ruins East 
41) Ice Ruins West [color="blue"]instead of doing Phendrana's Edge in-bounds which has only been done consecutively in 21% by T3 AFAIK[/color]
45) Control Tower
49) Frost Cave [color="blue"]instead of doing the LONG wallcrawl from Ice Ruins West SW to Phendrana's Edge or doing Phendrana's Edge in-bounds[/color]

51) Security Access B
52) Omega Research [color="blue"]instead of doing Vent Shaft + Phazon Processing Center in-bounds[/color]
53) Metroid Quarantine B [color="blue"]instead of climbing Phazon Processing Center again after having beaten Omega Pirate; not really needed[/color][/hidden]

T3

2014-02-28 10:39:31 pm

Quote:

But what do you mean with Infinite Speed Secret Worlds?

itspersonnal once entered a sw by just boosting with IS. he used to have a vid uploaded but i think he remvoed it. so my guess is that you could probably enter a sw in every room if you knew how to replicate it.

also, technically IS puts you everywhere in a room at once or something which means every room you can use IS in you can technically enter a sw.

Quote:

Also, I couldn't find any video/ description for the Frost Cave ACCESS Secret World (nr. 48 in your list) with ANY upgrades, so would you mind telling me how it's done at all?

https://m2k2.taigaforum.com/post/glitches1660.html#glitches1660

he used to have a vid up iirc, but i can't find it.

Quote:

Is Burning Trail the only Secret World that works the way it works?

yes. frost cave and security access b are also clip secret worlds but they don't really work the same way.

Quote:

Which Secret Worlds can be entered in 21%?

there are a ton of sw's that could possibly be entered, would need to test a bunch of stuff before i could tell you.

[quote] But what do you mean with Infinite Speed Secret Worlds?[/quote]
itspersonnal once entered a sw by just boosting with IS. he used to have a vid uploaded but i think he remvoed it. so my guess is that you could probably enter a sw in every room if you knew how to replicate it.

also, technically IS puts you everywhere in a room at once or something which means every room you can use IS in you can technically enter a sw.

[quote]Also, I couldn't find any video/ description for the Frost Cave ACCESS Secret World (nr. 48 in your list) with ANY upgrades, so would you mind telling me how it's done at all?[/quote]
https://m2k2.taigaforum.com/post/glitches1660.html#glitches1660

he used to have a vid up iirc, but i can't find it.

[quote]Is Burning Trail the only Secret World that works the way it works?[/quote]
yes. frost cave and security access b are also clip secret worlds but they don't really work the same way.

[quote]Which Secret Worlds can be entered in 21%?[/quote]
there are a ton of sw's that could possibly be entered, would need to test a bunch of stuff before i could tell you.

T3

2014-03-04 02:06:52 am

Daryoshi

2014-03-05 07:17:00 am

loving low%

Wow that's really cool! It looks (very) hard but should still be easier than clearing Vent Shaft + PPC the normal, in-bounds method, especially if you yet have to learn how 21% Vent Shaft WORKS. What is as cool as that SW leads to the possibility to skip VS + PPC, is that you can also skip the MQA to MQB segment which is about as hard as the VS + PPC segment I think. If not harder... That is literally the best SW to be found for 21%!

Quote:

there are a ton of sw's that could possibly be entered, would need to test a bunch of stuff before i could tell you.

Well, thanks, because what you've just found is like the most useful SW for 21% that hasn't yet been known about. Now if there were only another SW (instead of the extremely hard GTC SW) for GTH. Or some other SW, but I doubt it would be easier to get into certain SWs than just do those certain 21% tricks in-bounds. Well, who knows what WE will find out for 21%/ NSJ in the near future?! Again; really, really nice find!

T3

2014-03-05 06:59:00 pm

Quote:

It looks (very) hard but should still be easier than clearing Vent Shaft + PPC the normal

it's actually pretty easy. the first bomb jump can actually be made with just a dbj (though i prefer the ubj) and the second bomb jump isn't very difficult. should be WAY easier than vent shaft + ppc.

Quote:

you can also skip the MQA to MQB segment

it's (afaik) not possible to wallcrawl past the vertical door before central dynamo, so unfortunately that won't work.

Daryoshi

Edit history:

Daryoshi: 2014-03-07 10:16:44 pm

Daryoshi: 2014-03-07 05:22:17 pm

Daryoshi: 2014-03-07 05:21:18 pm

Daryoshi: 2014-03-07 05:19:53 pm

Daryoshi: 2014-03-07 05:06:48 pm

Daryoshi: 2014-03-07 05:04:30 pm

2014-03-07 05:02:32 pm

loving low%

Quoting myself -

Quote:

Or imporvements/ suggestions for routing either NSJ or 21%. I'd like to see/ read/ discuss anything related to that.

I'd like ot start making up a NSJ ANY% route (the fastest route collecting EVERY MAJOR UPGRADE except for Super Missile and Gravity Suit, because:

[Boost Ball for the various halfpipes]
[Spider Ball for GTH, MQA and MQB]
[Grapple Beam for Phendrana's Edge, FHA and FHB]
[Thermal Visor because it makes Prime's 2nd form much easier and faster and doesn't save much time to skip]
[Charge Beam for the much, much easier and faster boss fights (and for enabling using Ice Spreader on Prime's 1st form)]

--------------------------------------------------------

[ ] HARDEST PARTS OF A NO SPACE JUMP RUN (MAINLY DOING IT SINGLESEGMENT):
[ ]
[ ] - PPC without Spider Ball
[ ] - Getting Plasma Beam w/ Floaty Jump
[ ] - Phendrana's Edge with Grapple Beam
[ ] - Frozen Pike
[ ] - PPC once again (twice in total, but the 2nd time with Spider Ball)
[ ] - Phazon Core

--------------------------------------------------------

THE ROUTE INVOLVING ALL OF THE "HARDEST PARTS" MENTIONED ABOVE:

[ ] Rocket Launcher
[ ] >ET
[ ] Morph Ball
[ ] ME Watery Hall Access
[ ] Charge Beam
[ ] Morph Ball Bomb
[ ] ME Burning Dome
[ ] ME Gathering Hall
[ ] Varia Suit
[ ] WILD
[ ] NATURE
[ ] ET Transport to Elevator to Phendrana Drifts North
[ ] Boost Ball
[ ] Wave Beam
[ ] >evtl SUN w/ IS
[ ] >ME Transport to Elevator to Magmoor Caverns West
[ ] > upper ME Ruined Shrine
[ ] LIFEGIVER
[ ] > lower ME Ruined Shrine
[ ] > Halfpipe ME Main Plaza
[ ] > ET Furnace
[ ] Ice Beam
[ ] Grapple Beam
[ ] Power Bomb (>PPC sans SB...)
[ ] >ET Ventilation Shaft
[ ] Plasma Beam (Magmoor Workstation "pre-FJ" --> Burning Trail SW --> FJ --> Geo Core --> Plasma Beam)
[ ] SPIRIT (>Transport to Magmoor Caverns South)
[ ] ELDER
[ ] Thermal Visor (>Frozen Pike)
[ ] Spider Ball
[ ] SUN (or after Wave Beam, with IS)
[ ] STRENGTH
[ ] >PBE
[ ] >Ice Spreader
[ ] >ME Landing Site
[ ] (> climb FCS)
[ ] WORLD
[ ] >ME Lifegrove Tunnel
[ ] X-Ray Visor
[ ] CHOZO (>Lifegrove)
[ ] WARRIOR
[ ] Phazon Suit + Beam
[ ] >ME FHB
[ ] NEWBORN (>PPC (this time with Spider Ball))
[ ] >ET Elite Quarters Access
[ ] TRUTH
[ ] DONE (>Phazon Core)

--------------------------------------------------------

[ ] Phazon Mines in 1 or 2 trips?

[ ] I.e. getting an early Power Bomb Expansion FOR early X-Ray Visor before entering Mines for the first time (since you can't get out of the upper Mines/ front entrance and climb GTH from the lower part and get the X-Ray Visor and the Artifact of CHOZO? It's not possible to get from the lower part of GTH to the upper part of GTH and get into Lifegrove

[ ] And about a nsj ROUTE WITH PLASMA DIRECTLY AFTER ICE BEAM, BEFORE MINES? And Spider before PPC?

[ ] Infinite Speed (i.e. Boost Ball) or Power Bomb & Grapple Beam for Lava Pool
[ ]
[ ] WB (and for speedrunning PlB as well, for SPIRIT) & Grapple Beam for Phendrana's Edge --> Grapple Beam --> 2 trips to Phazon Mines anyway
[ ]
[ ] Plasma Beam needed for Ice Ruins West
[ ]
[ ] PB for Warrior Shrine/ Fiery Shores
[ ]
[ ] --> Only ICE RUINS WEST IS AVAILABLE--> Plasma Beam required although going for speed (--> huge detour) before getting an early PBE before going to into Lifegrove before going into the Mines from the front entrance.
[ ]

[ ] VERSUS THE UPPER ROUTE, i.e. doing PPC once more, the 1st time it's even before Spider Ball...

[ ] The answer to that question of a route that skips having to do PPC without Spider Ball (before Plasma Beam) is the following list/ route:

THE ROUTE INVOLVING ALL OF THE "HARDEST PARTS" EXCEPT FOR PPC W/OUT SPIDER BALL:

[ ] SJF until Varia Suit --> #4 --> #8 --> BB --> WB --> #9 (with Infinite Speed) --> --> #5 --> IB --> jump down FCS --> Ship --> MC --> Twin Fires Tunnel WITHOUT SJB AND WITHOUT SPIDER BALL--> Magmoor Workstation ("pre-Floaty Jump") --> Burning Trail SW --> Floaty Jump --> Geothermal Core --> Plasma Beam --> SPIDER BALL WITHOUT THERMAL VISOR AND WITHOUT POWER BOMBS --> ICE RUINS WEST EARLY POWER BOMB EXPANSION --> #2 --> another Power Bomb Expansion --> Ice Spreader --> back to Ship --> FCS climb --> #10 --> XRV --> #7 --> enter PM (frontwards) --> POWER BOMB UPGRADE --> Spider Shafts with Spider Ball --> #6 --> directly back to Ore Processing (with Spider Ball) --> PHAZON SUIT + BEAM --> #12 --> PPC (WITH SPIDER BALL) --> TRANSPORT TO MAGMOOR CAVERNS SOUTH (WITH SPIDER BALL) --> #11 --> #3 --> TV --> #1 --> DONE ! ! !

[ ] ADVANTAGES in comparison to the upper, 1st route:
[ ] 1) no PPC w/out SB
[ ] 2) going for PlB is earlier (not really, but about equally in time (in comparison to the other route) ONLY IF PPC is done very fast)
[ ] 3) Transport to Magmoor Caverns South with Spider Ball

[ ] DISADVANTAGES in comparison to the upper, 1st route:
[ ] 1) Twin Fires Tunnel from Tallon Overworld to Magmoor Workstation without SJB and without Spider Ball
[ ] 2) Thardus battle without Thermal Visor and without Power Bombs
[ ] 3) The whole run is a lot longer (at least it does FEEL like it would take A LOT longer)
actually, though, I tested both routes and with this one, I came up with 2:08, 9 minutes faster than my 2:17 with about the same effort with the 1st, upper route, so I'd say this argument is "invalid" ;-)

--------------------------------------------------------

What do you think?! My main issue is that - WHATEVER ROUTE I'D LIKE TO TAKE, I CAN'T SEE MYSELF GETTING A TIME SUB, LET'S SAY 2.5 HOURS IN-GAME TIME. IT SEEMS TO BE TOO FRUSTRATING TO HAVE A GOOD RUN STARTING AND THEN JUST MESS UP SOMETHING (LIKE PPC WITHOUT SPIDER BALL) OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND LOSE LIKE 20 MINUTES (AFTER 40-50 MINUTES OR SO INTO THE RUN). I can definetly finish a NSJ run, but I won't be satisfies with the time. The final time depends MAINLY on how fast you get PPC, Frozen Pike and how much time it takes you to get the Plasma Beam. And that is what pisses me off; it doesn't really matter how good the run is; it depends more about how fast those rooms are. Compare it with 22% Singlesegment; Geothermal Core can kill your run no matter how good the start was. Now think about a NSJ SS run which gets heavily screwed up/ messed up at the very end, just because of Frozen Pike, letting you fail (and fall (down)) over and over again because of the last 2 bomb jumps.

Do you have any proposals for a NSJ ANY% route that WOULDNT SUCK for Singlesegment? I'm not entirely referring to T3 here; merely "you" is definetly PLURAL here. Wink

Quoting myself - [quote]Or imporvements/ suggestions for routing either NSJ or 21%. I'd like to see/ read/ discuss anything related to that. [/quote]

I'd like ot start making up a NSJ ANY% route (the fastest route collecting EVERY MAJOR UPGRADE except for Super Missile and Gravity Suit, because:

[Boost Ball for the various halfpipes]
[Spider Ball for GTH, MQA and MQB]
[Grapple Beam for Phendrana's Edge, FHA and FHB]
[Thermal Visor because it makes Prime's 2nd form much easier and faster and doesn't save much time to skip]
[Charge Beam for the much, much easier and faster boss fights (and for enabling using Ice Spreader on Prime's 1st form)]

--------------------------------------------------------

[ ] HARDEST PARTS OF A NO SPACE JUMP RUN (MAINLY DOING IT SINGLESEGMENT):
[ ] 
[ ] - PPC without Spider Ball
[ ] - Getting Plasma Beam w/ Floaty Jump
[ ] - Phendrana's Edge with Grapple Beam
[ ] - Frozen Pike
[ ] - PPC once again (twice in total, but the 2nd time with Spider Ball)
[ ] - Phazon Core

--------------------------------------------------------

[color="blue"]THE ROUTE INVOLVING ALL OF THE "HARDEST PARTS" MENTIONED ABOVE:
[/color]

[hidden][ ] Rocket Launcher
[ ] >ET
[ ] Morph Ball
[ ] ME Watery Hall Access
[ ] Charge Beam
[ ] Morph Ball Bomb
[ ] ME Burning Dome
[ ] ME Gathering Hall
[ ] Varia Suit
[ ] WILD
[ ] NATURE
[ ] ET Transport to Elevator to Phendrana Drifts North
[ ] Boost Ball
[ ] Wave Beam
[ ] >evtl SUN w/ IS
[ ] >ME Transport to Elevator to Magmoor Caverns West
[ ] > upper ME Ruined Shrine
[ ] LIFEGIVER
[ ] > lower ME Ruined Shrine
[ ] > Halfpipe ME Main Plaza
[ ] > ET Furnace
[ ] Ice Beam
[ ] Grapple Beam
[ ] Power Bomb (>PPC sans SB...)
[ ] >ET Ventilation Shaft
[ ] Plasma Beam (Magmoor Workstation "pre-FJ" --> Burning Trail SW --> FJ --> Geo Core --> Plasma Beam)
[ ] SPIRIT (>Transport to Magmoor Caverns South)
[ ] ELDER
[ ] Thermal Visor (>Frozen Pike)
[ ] Spider Ball
[ ] SUN (or after Wave Beam, with IS)
[ ] STRENGTH
[ ] >PBE
[ ] >Ice Spreader
[ ] >ME Landing Site
[ ] (> climb FCS)
[ ] WORLD
[ ] >ME Lifegrove Tunnel
[ ] X-Ray Visor
[ ] CHOZO (>Lifegrove)
[ ] WARRIOR
[ ] Phazon Suit + Beam
[ ] >ME FHB
[ ] NEWBORN (>PPC (this time with Spider Ball))
[ ] >ET Elite Quarters Access
[ ] TRUTH
[ ] DONE (>Phazon Core)
[/hidden]

--------------------------------------------------------

[ ] [color="red"]Phazon Mines in 1 or 2 trips?[/color]
[hidden][ ] I.e. getting an early Power Bomb Expansion FOR early X-Ray Visor before entering Mines for the first time (since you can't get out of the upper Mines/ front entrance and climb GTH from the lower part and get the X-Ray Visor and the Artifact of CHOZO? It's not possible to get from the lower part of GTH to the upper part of GTH and get into Lifegrove

[ ] And about a nsj ROUTE WITH PLASMA DIRECTLY AFTER ICE BEAM, BEFORE MINES? And Spider before PPC?

[ ] Infinite Speed (i.e. Boost Ball) or Power Bomb & Grapple Beam for Lava Pool
[ ] 
[ ] WB (and for speedrunning PlB as well, for SPIRIT) & Grapple Beam for Phendrana's Edge --> Grapple Beam --> 2 trips to Phazon Mines anyway
[ ] 
[ ] Plasma Beam needed for Ice Ruins West
[ ] 
[ ] PB for Warrior Shrine/ Fiery Shores
[ ] 
[ ] --> Only ICE RUINS WEST IS AVAILABLE--> Plasma Beam required although going for speed (--> huge detour) before getting an early PBE before going to into Lifegrove before going into the Mines from the front entrance.
[ ]

[ ] VERSUS THE UPPER ROUTE, i.e. doing PPC once more, the 1st time it's even before Spider Ball...

[ ] The answer to that question of a route that skips having to do PPC without Spider Ball (before Plasma Beam) is the following list/ route:[/hidden]

[color="blue"]THE ROUTE INVOLVING ALL OF THE "HARDEST PARTS" EXCEPT FOR PPC W/OUT SPIDER BALL:[/color]

[hidden][ ] SJF until Varia Suit --> #4 --> #8 --> BB --> WB --> #9 (with Infinite Speed) --> --> #5 --> IB --> jump down FCS --> Ship --> MC --> Twin Fires Tunnel WITHOUT SJB AND WITHOUT SPIDER BALL--> Magmoor Workstation ("pre-Floaty Jump") --> Burning Trail SW --> Floaty Jump --> Geothermal Core --> Plasma Beam --> SPIDER BALL WITHOUT THERMAL VISOR AND WITHOUT POWER BOMBS --> ICE RUINS WEST EARLY POWER BOMB EXPANSION --> #2 --> another Power Bomb Expansion --> Ice Spreader --> back to Ship --> FCS climb --> #10 --> XRV --> #7 --> enter PM (frontwards) --> POWER BOMB UPGRADE --> Spider Shafts with Spider Ball --> #6 --> directly back to Ore Processing (with Spider Ball) --> PHAZON SUIT + BEAM --> #12 --> PPC (WITH SPIDER BALL) --> TRANSPORT TO MAGMOOR CAVERNS SOUTH (WITH SPIDER BALL) --> #11 --> #3 --> TV --> #1 --> DONE ! ! ![/hidden]

[ ] [color="blue"]ADVANTAGES[/color] in comparison to the upper, 1st route:
[ ] 1) no PPC w/out SB
[ ] 2) going for PlB is earlier (not really, but about equally in time (in comparison to the other route) ONLY IF PPC is done very fast)
[ ] 3) Transport to Magmoor Caverns South with Spider Ball

[ ] [color="blue"]DISADVANTAGES[/color] in comparison to the upper, 1st route:
[ ] 1) Twin Fires Tunnel from Tallon Overworld to Magmoor Workstation without SJB and without Spider Ball
[ ] 2) Thardus battle without Thermal Visor and without Power Bombs
[ ] [color="blue"] 3) The whole run is a lot longer (at least it does FEEL like it would take A LOT longer) [/color]
[color="red"] actually, though, I tested both routes and with this one, I came up with 2:08, 9 minutes faster than my 2:17 with about the same effort with the 1st, upper route, so I'd say this argument is "invalid" ;-)[/color]

--------------------------------------------------------

What do you think?! My main issue is that - WHATEVER ROUTE I'D LIKE TO TAKE, I CAN'T SEE MYSELF GETTING A TIME SUB, LET'S SAY 2.5 HOURS IN-GAME TIME. IT SEEMS TO BE [color="blue"]TOO [/color]FRUSTRATING TO HAVE A GOOD RUN STARTING AND THEN JUST MESS UP SOMETHING (LIKE PPC WITHOUT SPIDER BALL) OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND LOSE LIKE 20 MINUTES (AFTER 40-50 MINUTES OR SO INTO THE RUN). I can definetly finish a NSJ run, but I won't be satisfies with the time. The final time depends MAINLY on how fast you get PPC, Frozen Pike and how much time it takes you to get the Plasma Beam. And that is what pisses me off; it doesn't really matter how good the run is; it depends more about how fast those rooms are. Compare it with 22% Singlesegment; Geothermal Core can kill your run no matter how good the start was. Now think about a NSJ SS run which gets heavily screwed up/ messed up at the very end, just because of Frozen Pike, letting you fail (and fall (down)) over and over again because of the last 2 bomb jumps.

Do you have any proposals for a NSJ ANY% route that WOULDNT SUCK for Singlesegment? I'm not entirely referring to T3 here; merely "you" is definetly PLURAL here. :wink:

T3

2014-03-07 07:42:12 pm

this seems really arbitrary to me... why exactly are you not picking up gravity and super missiles? after getting gravity you could probably just bomb jump out of the water/use grapple and to get super missiles you'd just do the puzzle in observatory from the bottom, then come from control tower and grab them from the top.

rekameohs

2014-03-07 08:28:30 pm

Anywhere, everywhere

Quote from T3:

Ooh, this is nice! I'm stuck at Vent Shaft on my 21% file so maybe I should try and do it this way now.

Daryoshi

Edit history:

Daryoshi: 2014-03-07 10:19:40 pm

Daryoshi: 2014-03-07 10:14:51 pm

Daryoshi: 2014-03-07 09:22:54 pm

2014-03-07 09:15:41 pm

loving low%

Quote:

why exactly are you not picking up gravity and super missiles?

Because: What advantage would those upgrades get me in the run? I'd like to finish the game as past as possible, the only restriction is that it's NSJ. It's not like in my 28% (=natural low% (29%) minus SJB) where I had to collect (because of the definition of "natural low%").
My hope was something like someone (or you) coming up with a route bypassing enough hard NSJ parts but the route still being fast enough and not making huge detours...
Yeah, but it seems like there's no reasonably fast and at the same time reasonably "easy" route for NSJ for SINGLESEGMENT.

It's just that NSJ SS attempts would be a nice change when I sometimes will get bored from 23% SS and -as may be the case some time- 22% SS attempts. Therefore, I'd like to work out a NICE NSJ route that also applies for SS attempt without driving me total nuts. But, and that's the point I wanted to make; perhaps there isn't even a better route that the one I came up with (the upper route out of those I wrote down). Hmmmm... It would be cool to race NSJ SS but it isn't really funny at that point of routing we are at now. :-(

Sorry if all that sounds disturbing to you, but I really like to have a certain alternation between Metroid Prime categories, so I feel free to (kinda) "invent" new categories/ challenges.

EDIT: So, okay, I rushed through the 2nd, lower route today, and got 9 minutes faster: 45% 2:08 (vs. the 46% 2:17 with the upper route, that I thought is faster, but meh, apparently, the 2nd, lower route is actually faster). I "tried" to be as fast/ sloppy in my 2nd run as in my 1st run, so that I could actually compare them better. And I'm sure that I didn't play better/ faster by 8 minutes in my 2nd run, so I take it as it's faster to take the second route (although I still can't believe it's actually any faster; I thought it'd be like 10-15 minutes slower than the 1st, upper route, but nevermind I guess.

My dilemma is: I made up the 2nd route in order to have a slower, but easier route, enabling me to get Plasma Beam earlier --> (so I don't have to leave the Phazon Mines via PPC without Spider Ball at any time in the run). But I still don't know which route is EASIER. Comparing the advantages/ disadvantages of the 2nd route compared with the 1st [SEE UPPER POST OF MINE], I still can't decide to which route I shall stick. :-/

[quote]why exactly are you not picking up gravity and super missiles?[/quote]
Because: What advantage would those upgrades get me in the run? I'd like to finish the game as past as possible, the only restriction is that it's NSJ. It's not like in my 28% (=natural low% (29%) minus SJB) where I had to collect (because of the definition of "natural low%").
My hope was something like someone (or you) coming up with a route bypassing enough hard NSJ parts but the route still being fast enough and not making huge detours...
Yeah, but it seems like there's no reasonably fast and at the same time reasonably "easy" route for NSJ for SINGLESEGMENT.

It's just that NSJ SS attempts would be a nice change when I sometimes will get bored from 23% SS and -as may be the case some time- 22% SS attempts. Therefore, I'd like to work out a NICE NSJ route that also applies for SS attempt without driving me total nuts. But, and that's the point I wanted to make; perhaps there isn't even a better route that the one I came up with (the upper route out of those I wrote down). Hmmmm... It would be cool to race NSJ SS but it isn't really funny at that point of routing we are at now. :-(

Sorry if all that sounds disturbing to you, but I really like to have a certain alternation between Metroid Prime categories, so I feel free to (kinda) "invent" new categories/ challenges.

EDIT: So, okay, I rushed through the 2nd, lower route today, and got 9 minutes faster: 45% 2:08 (vs. the 46% 2:17 with the upper route, that I thought is faster, but meh, apparently, the 2nd, lower route is actually faster). I "tried" to be as fast/ sloppy in my 2nd run as in my 1st run, so that I could actually compare them better. And I'm sure that I didn't play better/ faster by 8 minutes in my 2nd run, so I take it as it's faster to take the second route (although I still can't believe it's actually any faster; I thought it'd be like 10-15 minutes slower than the 1st, upper route, but nevermind I guess.

My dilemma is: I made up the 2nd route in order to have a slower, but easier route, enabling me to get Plasma Beam earlier --> (so I don't have to leave the Phazon Mines via PPC without Spider Ball at any time in the run). But I still don't know which route is EASIER. Comparing the advantages/ disadvantages of the 2nd route compared with the 1st [SEE UPPER POST OF MINE], I still can't decide to which route I shall stick. :-/

arkarian

Edit history:

arkarian: 2014-03-07 10:39:33 pm

2014-03-07 10:39:09 pm

red chamber dream

i'm a little confused by the videos. i thought 21% always requires skipping space jump. is the super missile vid supposed to be some kind of alternate 21%, or are you just showing that it's possible to collect supers to make a 21% game a 22% game?

MilesSMB

2014-03-07 11:05:53 pm

They're for a 98% playthrough (everything except SJ).

arkarian

2014-03-07 11:14:08 pm

red chamber dream

ahh ok, cool

don't think i was paying attention to prime when that became a thing

metdood1

2014-03-12 11:58:53 am

i was thinking about a 21% speed run route and here's what i have.. can anyone improve on this?

-missile
-morph
-bomb
-varia/wild
-nature
-plasma wallcrawl
-wave/sun
-strength
-lifegiver
-ice
-world
-power bombs
-use T3's new sw to wallcrawl to front of mines
-x-ray/chozo
-warrior
-phazon suit
-newborn
-exit mines through PPC -> spirit (using frost cave sw or even the inbounds way) and elder
-backtrack to tallon/ship through geo core
-truth/ridley/prime

a couple things: after getting wave beam, it could possibly be faster to return to chozo ruins through the path through triclops pit instead of through root cave (i know root cave is faster if you have sj but could be different without). in that case nature should be gotten AFTER wave, that way you won't get nature then have to backtrack to enter the burning trail sw. this could also change the best time to get artifact of strength-- could be before going into phendrana for wave, or coming out. this just needs some small testing

for artifact of warrior, it could possibly be faster to just wallcrawl there the back way before leaving the mines for x/ray/chozo, or to go in the normal front way after getting xray. that would need some small testing too. but i think this wallcrawl should be way faster than exiting the mines through PPC and going through magmoor and climbing crashed frigate to get back around to xray and chozo

i was thinking about a 21% speed run route and here's what i have.. can anyone improve on this?

-missile
-morph
-bomb
-varia/wild
-nature
-plasma wallcrawl
-wave/sun
-strength
-lifegiver
-ice
-world
-power bombs
-use T3's new sw to wallcrawl to front of mines
-x-ray/chozo
-warrior
-phazon suit 
-newborn
-exit mines through PPC -> spirit (using frost cave sw or even the inbounds way) and elder
-backtrack to tallon/ship through geo core 
-truth/ridley/prime

a couple things: after getting wave beam, it could possibly be faster to return to chozo ruins through the path through triclops pit instead of through root cave (i know root cave is faster if you have sj but could be different without). in that case nature should be gotten AFTER wave, that way you won't get nature then have to backtrack to enter the burning trail sw. this could also change the best time to get artifact of strength-- could be before going into phendrana for wave, or coming out. this just needs some small testing

for artifact of warrior, it could possibly be faster to just wallcrawl there the back way before leaving the mines for x/ray/chozo, or to go in the normal front way after getting xray. that would need some small testing too. but i think this wallcrawl should be way faster than exiting the mines through PPC and going through magmoor and climbing crashed frigate to get back around to xray and chozo

Daryoshi

Edit history:

Daryoshi: 2014-03-12 02:49:19 pm

2014-03-12 02:41:42 pm

loving low%

That sounds very fast, indeed, but I see a MAJOR problem in your route:

Quote:

-use T3's new sw to wallcrawl to front of mines
-x-ray/chozo

From Phazon Mines upper exit to Tallon Overworld leads to the second lowest door in Great Tree Hall. And I did some testing on that a while ago; it seems like it's not possible to climb GTH from the bottom (i.e. the few platforms to the bars and spinner). Maybe it's possible, but it would be a room similar to Phendrana's Edge; annoying water at the bottom of the room and a DESPITEOUS long series of SUPER tight dashes/ bomb jumps). I was messing around with this lower part of GTH for about an hour or a bit more, so it's definetly a possibility that it's IMPOSSIBLE. I wouldn't be HORRIBLY surprised, though, if I were proven wrong and T3 found a way to get the lower part of GTH done. ;-)

---------

Also, this is a problem:

Quote:

-plasma wallcrawl
-wave/sun

Well, at least it could be one: I'm not sure if you can get "out-of-bounds" (the 2 "-signs because of the weird roof-thing on top of Geo Core) again WITHOUT Space Jump Boots, once you've collected Plasma Beam. But this is definetly the smaller out of those 2 problems I've behold.

---------

Btw who are you? It's your first post here and YET you seem to be very comfortable with the game, so I suppose you're Metroid177 (given the somewhat similar username) and you've just made a new account for SOME reason?

That sounds very fast, indeed, but I see a MAJOR problem in your route:

[quote]-use T3's new sw to wallcrawl to front of mines
-x-ray/chozo[/quote]

From Phazon Mines upper exit to Tallon Overworld leads to the second lowest door in Great Tree Hall. And I did some testing on that a while ago; it seems like it's not possible to climb GTH from the bottom (i.e. the few platforms to the bars and spinner). Maybe it's possible, but it would be a room similar to Phendrana's Edge; annoying water at the bottom of the room and a DESPITEOUS long series of SUPER tight dashes/ bomb jumps). I was messing around with this lower part of GTH for about an hour or a bit more, so it's definetly a possibility that it's IMPOSSIBLE. I wouldn't be HORRIBLY surprised, though, if I were proven wrong and T3 found a way to get the lower part of GTH done. ;-)

---------

Also, this is a problem:
[quote]-plasma wallcrawl
-wave/sun[/quote]
Well, at least it could be one: I'm not sure if you can get [color="red"]"[/color]out-of-bounds[color="red"]"[/color] (the 2 "-signs because of the weird roof-thing on top of Geo Core) again WITHOUT Space Jump Boots, once you've collected Plasma Beam. But this is definetly the smaller out of those 2 problems I've behold.

---------

Btw who are you? It's your first post here and YET you seem to be very comfortable with the game, so I suppose you're Metroid177 (given the somewhat similar username) and you've just made a new account for SOME reason?

Metroid177

2014-03-12 09:01:49 pm

No, we are different people.

Although I do have to admit, I have been contemplating a 21% speed run. The main problems for me would be doing great tree hall/phendrana's edge in-bounds. (have not once managed to do these rooms without sws) We can now use floaty jump to get plasma (although a workstation sw would be nice).

The route metdood1 proposed doesn't seem possible without TAS. Actually optimizing a wall crawl from burning trail to geo core without sj would be a nightmare. Plus this route features a wallcrawl to the front of the mines. Optimizing this wall crawl would suck to, even more then it did for Sparky in his 1:01 run.

I think the best route at the moment on console would be to stick with the standard double mines trip and use thardus dash. We can't use a route for low percent that acts similarly to the current any% route. You obviously can't collect power bomb expansions in low percent so you will always have to do a double mines trip no matter what.

and like Daryoshi pointed out, the platforms in great tree hall at the bottom are way to far apart to get to without space jump. (okay, maybe there is a way but have fun figuring it out and using it in a speed run. Would probably involve ridiculous laddered ubjs)

That sw in the mines t3 found is such a cool find. That was one sw I thought we would never figure out how to do without space jump. Makes me wonder how many other sws out there could actually be possible without space jump.

No, we are different people.

Although I do have to admit, I have been contemplating a 21% speed run.  The main problems for me would be doing great tree hall/phendrana's edge in-bounds.  (have not once managed to do these rooms without sws) We can now use floaty jump to get plasma (although a workstation sw would be nice).

The route metdood1 proposed doesn't seem possible without TAS.  Actually optimizing a wall crawl from burning trail to geo core without sj would be a nightmare.  Plus this route features a wallcrawl to the front of the mines.  Optimizing this wall crawl would suck to, even more then it did for Sparky in his 1:01 run.

I think the best route at the moment on console would be to stick with the standard double mines trip and use thardus dash.  We can't use a route for low percent that acts similarly to the current any% route.  You obviously can't collect power bomb expansions in low percent so you will always have to do a double mines trip no matter what.

and like Daryoshi pointed out, the platforms in great tree hall at the bottom are way to far apart to get to without space jump.  (okay, maybe there is a way but have fun figuring it out and using it in a speed run.  Would probably involve ridiculous laddered ubjs)

That sw in the mines t3 found is such a cool find. That was one sw I thought we would never figure out how to do without space jump.  Makes me wonder how many other sws out there could actually be possible without space jump.

Daryoshi

Edit history:

Daryoshi: 2014-03-13 07:36:40 am

Daryoshi: 2014-03-13 06:34:57 am

2014-03-13 06:34:04 am

loving low%

Quote:

The route metdood1 proposed doesn't seem possible without TAS.

I agree. Nonetheless, it could be worth looking into, seeing as it could be a very fast route, unless it's IMPOSSIBLE because of my two issues, i.e. lower GTH after upper Mines exit & Plasma before Wave and before Ice)

Quote:

You obviously can't collect power bomb expansions in low percent so you will always have to do a double mines trip no matter what.

Well, when having SJB AND Boost Ball, you can make a little detour and quickly exit the Mines via the upper exit and get X-Ray Visor, CHOZO (and WORLD from the nearby Chozo Ruins elevator). Then you can go back to the Mines, climb the two spider shafts and get WARRIOR without having to fight the Wavepirates in Mine Security Station. It's really not too much slower than the normal way of two mines trip, but it was worth for me to make that detour for my 23% SS run. ;-)
Of course, that isn't viable for either skipping Boost Ball or SJB.

Quote:

Makes me wonder how many other sws out there could actually be possible without space jump.

Yeah, me too. :-) I'll look into it, but I doubt that I can confirm any reasonable helpful SWs, but hope dies last.

Question: Would doing IBBF (also via the Gathering Hall SW) be faster in 21%? At least while TASing, it could be an option, but I may be wrong.

Also, could you, Metroid177, make a video of your 21% PPC alternative and share it with us? Thanks in advance. It's just that I'm more likely to spend time on NSJ SS runs if PPC is getting easier for me. ;D

[quote]The route metdood1 proposed doesn't seem possible without TAS.[/quote]
I agree. Nonetheless, it could be worth looking into, seeing as it could be a very fast route, unless it's IMPOSSIBLE because of my two issues, i.e. lower GTH after upper Mines exit & Plasma before Wave and before Ice)

[quote]You obviously can't collect power bomb expansions in low percent so you will always have to do a double mines trip no matter what.  [/quote]
Well, when having SJB AND Boost Ball, you can make a little detour and quickly exit the Mines via the upper exit and get X-Ray Visor, CHOZO (and WORLD from the nearby Chozo Ruins elevator). Then you can go back to the Mines, climb the two spider shafts and get WARRIOR without having to fight the Wavepirates in Mine Security Station. It's really not too much slower than the normal way of two mines trip, but it was worth for me to make that detour for my 23% SS run. ;-)
Of course, that isn't viable for either skipping Boost Ball or SJB.

[quote]Makes me wonder how many other sws out there could actually be possible without space jump. 
[/quote]
Yeah, me too. :-) I'll look into it, but I doubt that I can confirm any reasonable helpful SWs, but hope dies last.

Question: Would doing IBBF (also via the Gathering Hall SW) be faster in 21%? At least while TASing, it could be an option, but I may be wrong.

Also, could you, [color="red"]Metroid177[/color], make a video of your 21% PPC alternative and share it with us? Thanks in advance. It's just that I'm more likely to spend time on NSJ SS runs if PPC is getting easier for me. ;D

Metroid177

2014-03-15 01:13:29 am

Yeah, I'll make a video of it next time I have a recording session with my friend.

Daryoshi

Edit history:

Daryoshi: 2014-03-17 12:43:20 pm

2014-03-17 11:54:36 am

loving low%

Okay, thanks.

As I'm on my HARD mode 21% playthrough right now, I investigated some time in finding out if it's possible to get Plasma Beam with the Floaty Jump method on HARD mode as well.
Quick question: When you morph after the lava has disappeared again (after having scanned the 2nd scan-thing), and you are like 70% in the bottom and only 30% of the Morph Ball is visible and you have to unmorph since you can't Bomb Jump out of the "bottom", THEN you WILL acquire Floaty Jump when touching/ entering+leaving lava from the side in an out-of bounds state (i.e. through the Burning Trail SW), RIGHT? I couldn't test it out because I died afterwards. The trick to get the above thing to work is to fully scan the scan-thing and then JUMP (not walk; for less damage) into the corner, where the lava is deep. I think I went from 93 to 15 energy units, i.e. an amount of 78 energy units lost. That would've been only 52 on NORMAL mode. Well, anyway, it's probably easier to do the Plasma Beam wallcrawl the "regular" way, without doing the Magmoor trip in one go after having acquired the "pre-Floaty Jump".

Anoter thing I came up with: There is the SMALL possibility that there's PERHAPS a SW in Magmoor Workstation for 21%, that would work similarily to the Burning Trail SW. Go to the place where you'd scan the FIRST scan-thing and you might be able to get stuck somehwere between the waste. I tried for a couple of minutes and it doesn't seem possible to get out-of bounds from there. On the other hand, the Burning Trail SW was unknown to work for FAAAR too long in order to solve NSJ/NBB(/NSB/NGB)-Geo Core, and in the end it turned out to be fairly easy (once you get the hang out of it, i.e. seeing in the past, it's weird that it wasn't found A FEW YEARS earlier... PLUS, a (on top of that relatively very easy) Magmoor Workstation SW would be VERY cool. So feel free to get another SW to work for 21%. ;-)

Another thing I'd like to post is a video which will follow in a couple hours. I SOMEHOW got a 21% Vent Shaft HPBJ that CLEARLY had more height than needed. I always thought the Bomb Jump has to be like humanly-perfectly done under 21% conditions. Well, I was very surprised and therefore will share.

Okay, thanks.

As I'm on my HARD mode 21% playthrough right now, I investigated some time in finding out if it's possible to get Plasma Beam with the Floaty Jump method on HARD mode as well.
Quick question: When you morph after the lava has disappeared again (after having scanned the 2nd scan-thing), and you are like 70% in the bottom and only 30% of the Morph Ball is visible and you have to unmorph since you can't Bomb Jump out of the "bottom", THEN you WILL acquire Floaty Jump when touching/ entering+leaving lava from the side in an out-of bounds state (i.e. through the Burning Trail SW), RIGHT? I couldn't test it out because I died afterwards. The trick to get the above thing to work is to fully scan the scan-thing and then JUMP (not walk; for less damage) into the corner, where the lava is deep. I think I went from 93 to 15 energy units, i.e. an amount of 78 energy units lost. That would've been only 52 on NORMAL mode. Well, anyway, it's probably easier to do the Plasma Beam wallcrawl the "regular" way, without doing the Magmoor trip in one go after having acquired the "pre-Floaty Jump".

Anoter thing I came up with: There is the SMALL possibility that there's PERHAPS a SW in Magmoor Workstation for 21%, that would work similarily to the Burning Trail SW. Go to the place where you'd scan the FIRST scan-thing and you might be able to get stuck somehwere between the waste. I tried for a couple of minutes and it doesn't seem possible to get out-of bounds from there. On the other hand, the Burning Trail SW was unknown to work for FAAAR too long in order to solve NSJ/NBB(/NSB/NGB)-Geo Core, and in the end it turned out to be fairly easy (once you get the hang out of it, i.e. seeing in the past, it's weird that it wasn't found A FEW YEARS earlier... PLUS, a (on top of that relatively very easy) Magmoor Workstation SW would be VERY cool. So feel free to get another SW to work for 21%. ;-)

Another thing I'd like to post is a video which will follow in a couple hours. I SOMEHOW got a 21% Vent Shaft HPBJ that CLEARLY had more height than needed. I always thought the Bomb Jump has to be like humanly-perfectly done under 21% conditions. Well, I was very surprised and therefore will share.

StefanvanDijke

Edit history:

StefanvanDijke: 2014-03-18 06:23:30 am

StefanvanDijke: 2014-03-18 06:23:11 am

2014-03-18 06:18:30 am

for magmor workstation (i assume it's the room with the energy tank near phozon mines) , in the past I've tried to de the following.

As you might know, once you freeze a flying pirate with the ice beam it will continue to move slowly towards the direction at which it was flying the moment before you froze it. The idea is to come from the "save station door" at the top and freeze a pirate while he's moving upwards towards you and jump on it (they are standable), the moment he wants to break free, fire another shot (i think they die after a few shots on normal, obviously you have more shots on hard). The idea is that the pirate keeps moving upwards and pushes you into the ceiling eather. I didn't test it much but I share it just in case.

Another way is to use a bomb jump near this door + instant unmorph + jump and get over the wall. This is already comfirmed with spacejump.

Daryoshi

2014-03-18 07:09:27 am

loving low%

Quote:

(i assume it's the room with the energy tank near phozon mines)

Correct.

Quote:

This is already comfirmed with spacejump.

Do you mean it's confirmed for not using SJB, but having SJB? Or do you mean with USING SJB?

Anyway, I've read the WHOLE 21% topic (almost 50 pages LOL) and I think it's VERY hard if not impossible to get that method with the Flying Pirates to work. The method I'm THINKING about (it's probably not possible but it would be awesomly cool), WOULD be EASY. It's the following if you want to test it:

Go to the puzzle/ labyrinth and stay where you would scan the FIRST scan-thing. There's a lot of waste/ garbage/ litter there and you can get SOMEWHAT stuck between one part of it. Although it most certainly doesn't work to get out-of bounds from this place (making for another cool 21% Secret World), I think it's worth looking into. ;-)

StefanvanDijke

2014-03-18 07:27:38 am

I mean its confirmed with using spacejump, jumping twice.

yes its hard. remeber the pirates are in a fixed position untill you enter the room. We should come up with some kind of setting that would work each time. For example firing an ice shot towards a specific spot just before, or just at, the moment you enter the room.