WII U is the ultimate game-console

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2011-09-07 08:09:24 pm

2011-09-07 08:06:39 pm

Quote from tomatobob:

All people are stupid and devs are just lazy babies and certainly aren't working in a immense, complex industry I mean look at how simply I solved all the problems!

That is not what he is saying. You didn't dedicate your time to the video or you are mistaken. He is also not a nerd, he is open-minded. He perfectly knows that it is a complex industry with a lot of investment, this video is actually build upon this awareness if you think about it. I get the impression you are very lazy at reading and listening, bob:P

I don't agree with everything but there are valid points I can explicitly address by various examples.

J_SNAKE

2011-09-07 08:23:32 pm

Quote from Poision Envy:

That person might have the downs so I'll feel a little bad for saying this, but he's pretty retarded. It's the same thing as saying if you take Winnie the Pooh, replace all the characters with gangsters, give them all guns, change the story so it's about drug deals and fucking bitches, and then add a soundtrack, BUT the characters would still all have the same name, then the person would essentially still be watching Winnie the Pooh.

He chose an unlucky example with Kirby/Kratos but I agree with the principle. It is just a bit more abstract. Let me give you an explicit example: The example is KZ2. A non-boring adult who wants to play an interesting shooter knows this game is "shit". But look what is happening in the ps3 fanboy-scene. They brag about having an elitist shooter for adults without realising the campaign is just a scripted action-pipe. Teens are fooled into having something serios, what xbox shooters could not deliver, of course. Also the cool kids on the yard were sonic fans, right? Do you see the fundamental point here?

[quote="Poision Envy"]That person might have the downs so I'll feel a little bad for saying this, but he's pretty retarded. It's the same thing as saying if you take Winnie the Pooh, replace all the characters with gangsters, give them all guns, change the story so it's about drug deals and fucking bitches, and then add a soundtrack, BUT the characters would still all have the same name, then the person would essentially still be watching Winnie the Pooh.[/quote] He chose an unlucky example with Kirby/Kratos but I agree with the principle. It is just a bit more abstract. Let me give you an explicit example: The example is KZ2. A non-boring adult who wants to play an interesting shooter knows this game is "shit". But look what is happening in the ps3 fanboy-scene. They brag about having an elitist shooter for adults without realising the campaign is just a scripted action-pipe. Teens are fooled into having something serios, what xbox shooters could not deliver, of course. Also the cool kids on the yard were sonic fans, right? Do you see the fundamental point here?

tomatobob

2011-09-07 08:23:45 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

My favorite part is where he blames "casuals" for buying into the "gimmick" of a game with guns and playing them to feel superior to nerds and how they are killing video games and also total losers for thinking playing a shooter makes them better.

Then he goes on and on about how totally lame the "casuals" are and how totally superior he and Troo Gamerz are. ~Way To Go!~

J_SNAKE

2011-09-07 08:26:15 pm

Still missing the point, bob. Maybe that is why you don't like Metal Gear?

tomatobob

2011-09-07 08:26:28 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from J_SNAKE:

Do you see the fundamental point here?

His fundamental point is that FPS players are pissing in his no girls allowed gamer club pool by playing games they enjoy and so he devised this clever plan to "trick" them by replacing Kirby with Kratos.

Prime Hunter

2011-09-07 08:26:38 pm

And yet he doesn't seem to mention at all that as an industry there are a ton of restrictions and demands put on developers that impact what they make. Deadlines, budgets, and demands from the consumers all effect what games are made and what the outcome of a game is in the end. The fact that we have been saturated by FPS games and games geared towards everyone is because they have proven themselves as ways to make money both quickly and safely. The tough truth is that they sell a ton right now, so its a safe bet that you are almost guaranteed to get some sort of return on them with little risk of failure. Creating something new or unique, or something outside of the zone that the "fooled consumers" know is more of a risk than most people imagine. It's probably why Nintendo especially has relied on their same characters and franchises, because they know there are fan bases for them and people who will buy the next Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, etc. no matter what the game is like in the end. Making a game and having it sell enough copies to meet the immense development costs of mainstream console games is nuts because of this, and one way to nearly guarantee that is to make something you know people will continue to buy.

He makes it seem like there is one simple solution to taking any game and making it "more adult" to the point where consumers won't know the difference, and in some cases I'd agree. People in general can be pretty stupid at times, but as consumers I'd bet they are smarter than we give them credit for. I know part of why I liked Sonic back in the day was because the gameplay was a different style of platformer than Mario was. Sonic is about speed mostly, and yeah, his attitude made him different as well, but in the end I don't think simple changing Mario into Sonic but leaving him in the same game (say, SMB3) would've worked without making SOME change to the gameplay.

And yet he doesn't seem to mention at all that as an industry there are a ton of restrictions and demands put on developers that impact what they make. Deadlines, budgets, and demands from the consumers all effect what games are made and what the outcome of a game is in the end. The fact that we have been saturated by FPS games and games geared towards everyone is because they have proven themselves as ways to make money both quickly and safely. The tough truth is that they sell a ton right now, so its a safe bet that you are almost guaranteed to get some sort of return on them with little risk of failure. Creating something new or unique, or something outside of the zone that the "fooled consumers" know is more of a risk than most people imagine. It's probably why Nintendo especially has relied on their same characters and franchises, because they know there are fan bases for them and people who will buy the next Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, etc. no matter what the game is like in the end. Making a game and having it sell enough copies to meet the immense development costs of mainstream console games is nuts because of this, and one way to nearly guarantee that is to make something you know people will continue to buy.

He makes it seem like there is one simple solution to taking any game and making it "more adult" to the point where consumers won't know the difference, and in some cases I'd agree. People in general can be pretty stupid at times, but as consumers I'd bet they are smarter than we give them credit for. I know part of why I liked Sonic back in the day was because the gameplay was a different style of platformer than Mario was. Sonic is about speed mostly, and yeah, his attitude made him different as well, but in the end I don't think simple changing Mario into Sonic but leaving him in the same game (say, SMB3) would've worked without making SOME change to the gameplay.

tomatobob

2011-09-07 08:27:01 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from J_SNAKE:

Still missing the point, bob. Maybe that is why you don't like Metal Gear?

No one with any grasp of the english language could like Metal Gear unironically.

Prime Hunter

2011-09-07 08:29:00 pm

I love MGS, but even I agree that parts of it are insane and goofy. It was made to be that way in a sense. Not everything has to be 100% serious, which is part of why I like MGS because it is able to do that at points and then turn around and have something completely out of left field and so out there it's not funny.

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2011-09-07 08:31:46 pm

2011-09-07 08:29:11 pm

But you haven't played it, how can you tell, bob? Language skills alone don't make you understand something.

tomatobob

2011-09-07 08:30:59 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

And yet he doesn't seem to mention at all that as an industry there are a ton of restrictions and demands put on developers that impact what they make.

No but you see they're just shitting out FPSes because The Causals keep playing them but really hate themselves for it! All we need to do is trick those dumb casuals into playing a really Adult and Serious platformer and then we will fix the industry forever! And also laugh at them for be so easily tricked like children!

What the fuck is a publisher? Get out of here.

tomatobob

2011-09-07 08:32:52 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from J_SNAKE:

But you haven't played it, how can you tell, bob?

I'm still in a cutscene right now, I'll get to this later.

Oh wait no I can talk now, see the problem is s-

Oh hold on another 20 minutes of babble and less than subtle and poorly written social commentary! Also a a poop joke.

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2011-09-07 09:35:00 pm

2011-09-07 08:34:40 pm

Quote from Prime Hunter:

And yet he doesn't seem to mention at all that as an industry there are a ton of restrictions and demands put on developers that impact what they make. Deadlines, budgets, and demands from the consumers all effect what games are made and what the outcome of a game is in the end.

He is pretty aware of that. That is actually the problem-point all the video-series are build around. That is just the last part of 3. Look them up on youtube if you wish. I don't agree on everything but it might be still worthy to watch for one or the other.

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2011-09-07 09:17:15 pm

2011-09-07 09:14:24 pm

Quote from tomatobob:

Quote from J_SNAKE:

But you haven't played it, how can you tell, bob?

I'm still in a cutscene right now, I'll get to this later.

Oh wait no I can talk now, see the problem is s-

Oh hold on another 20 minutes of babble and less than subtle and poorly written social commentary! Also a a poop joke.

The game is divided in 2 parts. The one is cutscenes, the other is gameplay. Everything regarding gameplay doesn't need to make perfect sense in terms of a coherent simulation of the presented world. It is designed to be played well. It is like 2-3 games in one, the cool thng is that all of these different playstyles work, there is decent quality in them. Then we have the story-part. And here is the difference. Today many big games adapt their story and all the acting to what the majority wants to listen to. In MGS however the story corresponds to the designers vision. And that is the real thing, you have the real value, not a fake one. I understand that the dialogs might appear unusual to you. But you have to consider that not everyone is full in grasp with your personal culture and language. On the other hand you have to realise that you are not in full grasp with other cultures/mind-sets aswell. MGS is not made with western-standards in mind despite it contains western actors. But if you pick up mgs with that open mind and dedicate time to it you might learn something new and you might also realise that things can make sense if you change your point of view and learn to spend your attention on the relevant things. Mgs has some jokes here and there thrown in, never mind. But it is definitely something good to play, but intentionally also something to think about, all in one game. There is a lot of thought spent on it, in every aspect (except you know I am never satisfied with game-mechanics, but I am certainly complaining on a high level here).

So the main problem is that you just have a fixed point of view on things. That prevents you to see a lot of quality and content put into this great game. But that is not necessarily a bad thing as long as you drive happily with your attitude. But if you want to change that there are ways to do it.

[quote="tomatobob"][quote="J_SNAKE"]But you haven't played it, how can you tell, bob?[/quote]
I'm still in a cutscene right now, I'll get to this later.

Oh wait no I can talk now, see the problem is s-

Oh hold on another 20 minutes of babble and less than subtle and poorly written social commentary! Also a a poop joke.[/quote]

The game is divided in 2 parts. The one is cutscenes, the other is gameplay. Everything regarding gameplay doesn't need to make perfect sense in terms of a coherent simulation of the presented world. It is designed to be played well. It is like 2-3 games in one, the cool thng is that all of these different playstyles work, there is decent quality in them. Then we have the story-part. And here is the difference. Today many big games adapt their story and all the acting to what the majority wants to listen to. In MGS however the story corresponds to the designers vision. And that is the real thing, you have the real value, not a fake one. I understand that the dialogs might appear unusual to you. But you have to consider that not everyone is full in grasp with your personal culture and language. On the other hand you have to realise that you are not in full grasp with other cultures/mind-sets aswell. MGS is not made with western-standards in mind despite it contains western actors. But if you pick up mgs with that open mind and dedicate time to it you might learn something new and you might also realise that things can make sense if you change your point of view and learn to spend your attention on the relevant things. Mgs has some jokes here and there thrown in, never mind. But it is definitely something good to play, but intentionally also something to think about, all in one game. There is a lot of thought spent on it, in every aspect (except you know I am never satisfied with game-mechanics, but I am certainly complaining on a high level here).

So the main problem is that you just have a fixed point of view on things. That prevents you to see a lot of quality and content put into this great game. But that is not necessarily a bad thing as long as you drive happily with your attitude. But if you want to change that there are ways to do it.

Prime Hunter

2011-09-07 09:39:29 pm

I think he's talking more about how the game is broken up by cutscenes everywhere that are often quite long compared to most cutscenes in games. My brother is the same way and I get that a lot of people don't care for such a thing when all they want to do it play. Luckily, I am ok with it.

tomatobob

2011-09-07 09:40:10 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Hmmmm perhaps I will return after I have further considered the deep and complex social and cultural symbolism in a man shitting his pants repeatedly.

Probably something about war being bad, truly a ground breaking statement for a game about killing people and hiding!

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2011-09-07 09:42:51 pm

2011-09-07 09:41:53 pm

How about going deeper than that? Some think war is actually cool, so we have a problem.

tomatobob

2011-09-07 09:44:56 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Given all the war and gun porn going on in MGS I'd say it's possibly the last thing in the world that could change that opinion.

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2011-09-07 09:53:14 pm

J_SNAKE: 2011-09-07 09:49:36 pm

2011-09-07 09:46:07 pm

Be more specific. Some people like guns and have selfish interests, is it anything strange? There are many layers in the story. You are just scratching the obvious one on its surface.

tomatobob

2011-09-07 10:10:25 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

I am constantly astounded that people are actually convinced that there's more to Kojima than a child playing with a bunch of toys he made in the world he made for them. Dude just wants to make a bunch of poop and dick jokes and people eat everything surrounding it up like it's anything more than a vague justification for said jokes. Asking a dude why he's fighting every six seconds is not deep, and does not add anything to a narrative ever, neither does going on about what it means to be a soldier, it just makes it look like there's something more to the game than silly jokes, inappropriately dress women and extended shots of Snake's admittedly spectacular ass.

MGS is literally Kojima playing with GI Joes and Power Rangers. It would be a fine television series about the crazy day in the life of The World's Greatest Soldier with the occasional very special episode about teaching a little girl to stop burning those goddamned eggs, but it is a series of incredibly poorly constructed video games and always will be.

I am constantly astounded that people are actually convinced that there's more to Kojima than a child playing with a bunch of toys he made in the world he made for them. Dude just wants to make a bunch of poop and dick jokes and people eat everything surrounding it up like it's anything more than a vague justification for said jokes. Asking a dude why he's fighting every six seconds is not deep, and does not add anything to a narrative ever, neither does going on about what it means to be a soldier, it just makes it look like there's something more to the game than silly jokes, inappropriately dress women and extended shots of Snake's admittedly spectacular ass.

MGS is literally Kojima playing with GI Joes and Power Rangers. It would be a fine television series about the crazy day in the life of The World's Greatest Soldier with the occasional very special episode about teaching a little girl to stop burning those goddamned eggs, but it is a series of incredibly poorly constructed video games and always will be.

Prime Hunter

2011-09-07 10:28:32 pm

I think you might be dumbing down the story a bit much, but sadly there is a lot of those elements you mentioned and its hard to ignore them because of how they constantly creep up at every other moment. There is some semi-deep stuff in there, such as what could happen if a government agency/organization in power is allowed to be in control of what is censored and what is not (which is kinda true to an extent in today's world) and a lot about being a soldier and conducting war for war's sake rather than to gain something out of it. But yeah, if you analyze things on an overall level its another example of having what could be considered a good idea/story not but executing the elements that make up said idea/story as well as they could be. (Mostly because of the things you mentioned, as well as moments where things aren't entirely clear during the narrative.)

You seem pretty clear in your view of the series though, so I don't know if anything else said will change that if it hasn't by now.

I think you might be dumbing down the story a bit much, but sadly there is a lot of those elements you mentioned and its hard to ignore them because of how they constantly creep up at every other moment. There is some semi-deep stuff in there, such as what could happen if a government agency/organization in power is allowed to be in control of what is censored and what is not (which is kinda true to an extent in today's world) and a lot about being a soldier and conducting war for war's sake rather than to gain something out of it. But yeah, if you analyze things on an overall level its another example of having what could be considered a good idea/story not but executing the elements that make up said idea/story as well as they could be. (Mostly because of the things you mentioned, as well as moments where things aren't entirely clear during the narrative.)

You seem pretty clear in your view of the series though, so I don't know if anything else said will change that if it hasn't by now.

tomatobob

2011-09-07 10:44:14 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

I feel like it would actually work on some level if they could just get the balance on the goofy shit and serious stuff right. 3 actually does a pretty good job of it, but mostly the pacing on everything is just awful. 4 flips it's tone back and forth faster than some of the later episodes of M*A*S*H. And if you want your story to be taken seriously you can't make a dude shitting himself in the middle of a battle be an actual plot point. You just can't do that.

I'm sure a lot of it suffers from the standard Japanese to English translation issues, but just plain poor writing is a major issue. They bring up the information control thing but never really get into why it would be bad other than "Well, it's bad" and given the amount of time you spend in cutscenes/codec nonsense you'd think they had time to cover it. But they don't, they don't really cover anything except for entirely unimportant boring crap like trying to make Big Boss totally not the real bad guy, you guys. Seriously, MGS 4 is a mess, like fan fiction level writing.

I feel like it would actually work on some level if they could just get the balance on the goofy shit and serious stuff right. 3 actually does a pretty good job of it,  but mostly the pacing on everything is just awful. 4 flips it's tone back and forth faster than some of the later episodes of M*A*S*H. And if you want your story to be taken seriously you can't make a dude shitting himself in the middle of a battle be an actual plot point. You just can't do that.

I'm sure a lot of it suffers from the standard Japanese to English translation issues, but just plain poor writing is a major issue. They bring up the information control thing but never really get into why it would be bad other than "Well, it's bad" and given the amount of time you spend in cutscenes/codec nonsense you'd think they had time to cover it. But they don't, they don't really cover anything except for entirely unimportant boring crap like trying to make Big Boss totally not the real bad guy, you guys. Seriously, MGS 4 is a mess, like fan fiction level writing.

tomatobob

2011-09-07 10:46:56 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Also what the hell with with not having the balls to kill Snake at the end? That would have been a fucking great ending and would have made at least some of the bullshit that happened actually somewhere close to meaningful.

Prime Hunter

2011-09-07 10:55:33 pm

I thought you hadn't played MGS before, but you seem pretty well informed about what happens in the series. (Not that its hard to simply look everything up elsewhere though)

I haven't played MGS4 since around when it came out, but yeah, a lot of the story does get kinda weird at times because of trying to tie up loose ends from 20+ years of MGS history. 3 is probably still my favorite because both the gameplay and story progression are about equal with one another as far as screentime goes, and I just like the game mechanics themselves more than in any of the other MGS games.

I think it would've made more sense for him to die in the end because it's kinda a central part of the MGS4 story with him being replaced and having fought for the things that mattered to him. He had done what he needed/wanted to do. I don't see Snake as one to simply retire, not after everything that has been given to players about his character and personality over the years.

tomatobob

2011-09-07 11:12:05 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Yeah, killing him would have been good for closure for the character, he's old, fucked up, and obsolete by that point; he's slowly falling apart as it is and he's done all he needed to do. Having a last second "Oh hey, yeah, you're better now and totally not going to kill everyone around you! ~Go have a life!~" thing happen was just a total cop out and seemed totally contrary to everything they had done with the character up to that point. I don't get it.

The Mega Man Zero series isn't held up as some great standard of video game story telling, and shouldn't be, but it gave Zero literally the exact same arc as Snake and at least had the decency to blow him up and send his remains crashing down to earth at the end. I didn't even like Zero 4 but the ending fucking ruled because of that.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

I thought you hadn't played MGS before, but you seem pretty well informed about what happens in the series. (Not that its hard to simply look everything up elsewhere though)

Yeah it's sort of a series I find more interesting to see someone play than actually play for myself, I might consider playing 3 one day but it's not terribly likely. I've just seen enough of it through other people to know the story doesn't click with me at all.

Yeah, killing him would have been good for closure for the character, he's old, fucked up, and obsolete by that point; he's slowly falling apart as it is and he's done all he needed to do. Having a last second "Oh hey, yeah, you're better now and totally not going to kill everyone around you! ~Go have a life!~" thing happen was just a total cop out and seemed totally contrary to everything they had done with the character up to that point. I don't get it.

The Mega Man Zero series isn't held up as some great standard of video game story telling, and shouldn't be, but it gave Zero literally the exact same arc as Snake and at least had the decency to blow him up and send his remains crashing down to earth at the end. I didn't even like Zero 4 but the ending fucking ruled because of that.

[quote="Prime Hunter"]I thought you hadn't played MGS before, but you seem pretty well informed about what happens in the series. (Not that its hard to simply look everything up elsewhere though)[/quote]
Yeah it's sort of a series I find more interesting to see someone play than actually play for myself, I might consider playing 3 one day but it's not terribly likely. I've just seen enough of it through other people to know the story doesn't click with me at all.

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2011-09-08 01:28:46 pm

J_SNAKE: 2011-09-08 12:15:37 pm

2011-09-08 12:35:47 am

Quote from tomatobob:

I am constantly astounded that people are actually convinced that there's more to Kojima than a child playing with a bunch of toys he made in the world he made for them. Dude just wants to make a bunch of poop and dick jokes and people eat everything surrounding it up like it's anything more than a vague justification for said jokes. Asking a dude why he's fighting every six seconds is not deep, and does not add anything to a narrative ever, neither does going on about what it means to be a soldier, it just makes it look like there's something more to the game than silly jokes, inappropriately dress women and extended shots of Snake's admittedly spectacular ass.

MGS is literally Kojima playing with GI Joes and Power Rangers. It would be a fine television series about the crazy day in the life of The World's Greatest Soldier with the occasional very special episode about teaching a little girl to stop burning those goddamned eggs, but it is a series of incredibly poorly constructed video games and always will be.

Again, that says it all. You speak about it as if you know about it something. It seems you flow over youtube-vids or reading up wikipedias but one sure thing is that you haven't dedicated your time to experience MGS yourself. One indicator is the obvious lack of emotional connection to the happening and the characters despite the game is full of it. This is not a Kirby or Metroid game, it is all wired and there is a meaning attached to everything. You are looking at the surface of what is happening but not how everything is wired together, it is quite complex. This nothing a kid could do, not to mention the constellation, choice and level of characters. But if you see how things are wired together and get a feel for the characters then things will get to start interesting and you will realise that you have watched at all that stuff with short eyes, taking a wrong view-point in addition. Not everything is perfect, but the main set-up and the message of the game is not to doubt. There are always compromises made over such a long period of titles. For example in MGS4 many things were painfully cramped together (I literally feel it) to confirm and to make the whole puzzle as complete as possible. But it is still alright, you can get the point and overall it stays true to its vision.

Anyway, soon the HD-remakes are about to arrive on current gen (all in one package). So if you decide to dedicate time to it one day, may be you can start from there.

[quote="tomatobob"]I am constantly astounded that people are actually convinced that there's more to Kojima than a child playing with a bunch of toys he made in the world he made for them. Dude just wants to make a bunch of poop and dick jokes and people eat everything surrounding it up like it's anything more than a vague justification for said jokes. Asking a dude why he's fighting every six seconds is not deep, and does not add anything to a narrative ever, neither does going on about what it means to be a soldier, it just makes it look like there's something more to the game than silly jokes, inappropriately dress women and extended shots of Snake's admittedly spectacular ass.

MGS is literally Kojima playing with GI Joes and Power Rangers. It would be a fine television series about the crazy day in the life of The World's Greatest Soldier with the occasional very special episode about teaching a little girl to stop burning those goddamned eggs, but it is a series of incredibly poorly constructed video games and always will be.[/quote] Again, that says it all. You speak about it as if you know about it something. It seems you flow over youtube-vids or reading up wikipedias but one sure thing is that you haven't dedicated your time to experience MGS yourself. One indicator is the obvious lack of emotional connection to the happening and the characters despite the game is full of it. This is not a Kirby or Metroid game, it is all wired and there is a meaning attached to everything. You are looking at the surface of what is happening but not how everything is wired together, it is quite complex. This nothing a kid could do, not to mention the constellation, choice and level of characters. But if you see how things are wired together and get a feel for the characters then things will get to start interesting and you will realise that you have watched at all that stuff with short eyes, taking a wrong view-point in addition. Not everything is perfect, but the main set-up and the message of the game is not to doubt. There are always compromises made over such a long period of titles. For example in MGS4 many things were painfully cramped together (I literally feel it) to confirm and to make the whole puzzle as complete as possible. But it is still alright, you can get the point and overall it stays true to its vision.

Anyway, soon the HD-remakes are about to arrive on current gen (all in one package). So if you decide to dedicate time to it one day, may be you can start from there.