Has the Prime trilogy been retconned out of existence?

2010-12-18 07:50:27 am

Quote from sabata2:

That's the PRECISE problem.
You have to have done your research to understand it. Yes there's people like your friends father and myself who can FIGURE why it's happening, but the way it's presented (her fear) does not match up to what is known.
And it's because of that disjoint between what's recognizable and WHY it is recognized as that, that people call the game shit.
"Hey, that giant lizard must have done something to her in her past to make her act this way."
"Well, what did he do?"
"Fuck if I know, but it must have been pretty bad to turn someone from 'Mother... Time to go!' to 'Oh fuck, oh fuck, oh fuck, Ridley!'"

There is a thought I had. Perhaps the scene would've been better if Ridley was talking like in the manga? Since they show Ridley towering quite often in the scene, they could describe what he did that way without making the scene any longer. I was thinking something like this:

[quote="sabata2"]

That's the PRECISE problem.
You have to have done your research to understand it. Yes there's people like your friends father and myself who can FIGURE why it's happening, but the way it's presented (her fear) does not match up to what is known.
And it's because of that disjoint between what's recognizable and WHY it is recognized as that, that people call the game shit.
"Hey, that giant lizard must have done something to her in her past to make her act this way."
"Well, what did he do?"
"Fuck if I know, but it must have been pretty bad to turn someone from 'Mother... Time to go!' to 'Oh fuck, oh fuck, oh fuck, Ridley!'"
[/quote]

There is a thought I had. Perhaps the scene would've been better if Ridley was talking like in the manga? Since they show Ridley towering quite often in the scene, they could describe what he did that way without making the scene any longer. I was thinking something like this:

[img]http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/243/f/c/other_m_is_for_motherfucker_by_unshackledfenrir-d2xqdh7.jpg[/img]

ComboKing

2010-12-18 02:13:28 pm

Quote from sabata2:

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

Honestly, that I could agree with. I think it would've been better if they gave Ridley a voice. He could've taunted her on her past just like in the manga. The problem with the story is that it's too vague alot of the time, you really have to have done research to actually understand it. That may be a big flaw with the story but that still doesn't mean people are justified to call it sexist, misogynistic, or any of that crap. You can say you don't like how they portrayed Samus without inserting "It's demeaning to women" onto it. If nothing else, I appreciate you guys not using that.

That's the PRECISE problem.
You have to have done your research to understand it. Yes there's people like your friends father and myself who can FIGURE why it's happening, but the way it's presented (her fear) does not match up to what is known.
And it's because of that disjoint between what's recognizable and WHY it is recognized as that, that people call the game shit.
"Hey, that giant lizard must have done something to her in her past to make her act this way."
"Well, what did he do?"
"Fuck if I know, but it must have been pretty bad to turn someone from 'Mother... Time to go!' to 'Oh fuck, oh fuck, oh fuck, Ridley!'"

On the topic of "The game is sexist" etc.
Political correctness is a piece of shit and because of it we get retards who shout "RACIST" when ANYTHING is happening to a black person or "SEXIST" whenever something is happening to a woman.
Morgan Webb, while highly likely being in the camp of "wtf why is she acting like this", definitely over reacted simply because the main character was a woman.

Also, lol @ wasting an entire clip trying to kill one bug.

To be fair Morgan didn't write the review she just read it like she was asked.

[quote="sabata2"][quote="MetroidJunkie"]Honestly, that I could agree with. I think it would've been better if they gave Ridley a voice. He could've taunted her on her past just like in the manga. [b][u]The problem with the story is that it's too vague alot of the time, you really have to have done research to actually understand it.[/u][/b] That may be a big flaw with the story but that still doesn't mean people are justified to call it sexist, misogynistic, or any of that crap. You can say you don't like how they portrayed Samus without inserting "It's demeaning to women" onto it. If nothing else, I appreciate you guys not using that.[/quote]

That's the PRECISE problem.
You have to have done your research to understand it. Yes there's people like your friends father and myself who can FIGURE why it's happening, but the way it's presented (her fear) does not match up to what is known.
And it's because of that disjoint between what's recognizable and WHY it is recognized as that, that people call the game shit.
"Hey, that giant lizard must have done something to her in her past to make her act this way."
"Well, what did he do?"
"Fuck if I know, but it must have been pretty bad to turn someone from 'Mother... Time to go!' to 'Oh fuck, oh fuck, oh fuck, Ridley!'"

On the topic of "The game is sexist" etc.
Political correctness is a piece of shit and because of it we get retards who shout "RACIST" when ANYTHING is happening to a black person or "SEXIST" whenever something is happening to a woman.
Morgan Webb, while highly likely being in the camp of "wtf why is she acting like this", definitely over reacted simply because the main character was a woman.

Also, lol @ wasting an entire clip trying to kill one bug.[/quote]To be fair Morgan didn't write the review she just read it like she was asked.

sabata2

2010-12-18 03:43:23 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

There is a thought I had. Perhaps the scene would've been better if Ridley was talking like in the manga? Since they show Ridley towering quite often in the scene, they could describe what he did that way without making the scene any longer.

It would have been awkward having him talk when in no other game he has, but they could have pulled off something like tWW where Link all of a sudden understands Hylian his second play through.
And yes, a dialog along those lines would have helped.

Quote from ComboKing:

To be fair Morgan didn't write the review she just read it like she was asked.

Alright then, simply change "Morgan Webb" to "The person who wrote the review".
The review still was an overreaction and completely retarded.

UchihaSasuke

2010-12-18 03:57:26 pm

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

Ridley couldn't be able to speak anyway since he's a newborn who hasn't learned to talk yet and doesn't know about the past Ridley's actions. he just loves to terrorize people by instinct. his trait of targeting the strongest prey available is part of his instinct too.
that's pretty similar to how the Alien movies develop since Ripley is scared shitless of the xenomorphs but the xenomorphs' instinct is to kill and kill and they don't know about her beforehand and don't make a distinction.

this argument seems to be just spiraling out now. the fact is that the series is fucked now and there's not much that can be done about it. Sakamoto will probably lose a lot of his pull on the series because of this now so at least we have something to be happy about.

sabata2

2010-12-18 05:03:48 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from UchihaSasuke:

Ridley couldn't be able to speak anyway since he's a newborn who hasn't learned to talk yet and doesn't know about the past Ridley's actions.

Why did I completely forget about that?
*sigh*

And yeah a lot of this should be in "The defense of the Ridley scene" instead of "Prime trilogy, retconned?"

Baron Dante

2010-12-18 05:08:14 pm

Hm, on the second playthrough Ridley should come carrying a big note that says that xD

Turtle

2010-12-18 06:17:26 pm

I like turtles.

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

You realize that "seeing through the character's eyes and injecting your own personality into it" is the exact same reason people like Bella from Twilight, right? I like to think of Samus as a strong woman with flaws, feelings, and struggles. Not as a robotic suit with an "Insert head here" pasted onto it.

1. The difference being that Bella is not at all well-written and was never a strong character.
2. Like I said, Samus was never lacking a personality. She just didn't wear it on her sleeves before.
3. How could anyone think of Samus as strong after being shown the Ridley cutscene, short of denying the ever happened? Panic is generally a sign of allowing fear to conquer oneself, rather than being strong enough to conquer the fear.

MetroidJunkie

Edit history:

MetroidJunkie: 2010-12-18 07:08:44 pm

MetroidJunkie: 2010-12-18 07:08:41 pm

MetroidJunkie: 2010-12-18 07:08:38 pm

MetroidJunkie: 2010-12-18 07:08:24 pm

2010-12-18 07:06:04 pm

Quote from Turtle:

3. How could anyone think of Samus as strong after being shown the Ridley cutscene, short of denying the ever happened? Panic is generally a sign of allowing fear to conquer oneself, rather than being strong enough to conquer the fear.

She didn't really panic, she was basically frozen, and she DOES "conquer the fear", 2 minutes afterwards, and has no relapse for any of the rest of the game. You're still harping on 2 damned minutes. 2 little insignificant minutes.

Quote from UchihaSasuke:

Ridley couldn't be able to speak anyway since he's a newborn who hasn't learned to talk yet and doesn't know about the past Ridley's actions. he just loves to terrorize people by instinct. his trait of targeting the strongest prey available is part of his instinct too.
that's pretty similar to how the Alien movies develop since Ripley is scared shitless of the xenomorphs but the xenomorphs' instinct is to kill and kill and they don't know about her beforehand and don't make a distinction.

For someone who "doesn't know about Samus", Ridley sure is glaring at her pretty intensely when he's "little birdie". The game never said Ridley has no memory.

[quote="Turtle"]
3. How could anyone think of Samus as strong after being shown the Ridley cutscene, short of denying the ever happened?  Panic is generally a sign of allowing fear to conquer oneself, rather than being strong enough to conquer the fear.[/quote]

She didn't really panic, she was basically frozen, and she DOES "conquer the fear", 2 minutes afterwards, and has no relapse for any of the rest of the game. You're still harping on 2 damned minutes. 2 little insignificant minutes.

[quote="UchihaSasuke"]Ridley couldn't be able to speak anyway since he's a newborn who hasn't learned to talk yet and doesn't know about the past Ridley's actions. he just loves to terrorize people by instinct. his trait of targeting the strongest prey available is part of his instinct too. 
that's pretty similar to how the Alien movies develop since Ripley is scared shitless of the xenomorphs but the xenomorphs' instinct is to kill and kill and they don't know about her beforehand and don't make a distinction.
[/quote]

For someone who "doesn't know about Samus", Ridley sure is glaring at her pretty intensely when he's "little birdie". The game never said Ridley has no memory.

Turtle

2010-12-18 07:16:07 pm

I like turtles.

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

She didn't really panic, she was basically frozen, and she DOES "conquer the fear", 2 minutes afterwards, and has no relapse for any of the rest of the game. You're still harping on 2 damned minutes. 2 little insignificant minutes.

What do you call "panic"? Because "freezing up under duress" is exactly how I'd define it. She only snaps out of it (for reasons still unexplained) when Anthony gets "killed," not because she was able to overcome it on her own. And I'm talking about degree, not extent. Samus' character was degraded more in those two minutes than in every other moment in the game combined.

MetroidJunkie

Edit history:

MetroidJunkie: 2010-12-18 07:20:43 pm

2010-12-18 07:18:52 pm

Quote from Turtle:

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

She didn't really panic, she was basically frozen, and she DOES "conquer the fear", 2 minutes afterwards, and has no relapse for any of the rest of the game. You're still harping on 2 damned minutes. 2 little insignificant minutes.

What do you call "panic"? Because "freezing up under duress" is exactly how I'd define it. She only snaps out of it (for reasons still unexplained) when Anthony gets "killed," not because she was able to overcome it on her own. And I'm talking about degree, not extent. Samus' character was degraded more in those two minutes than in every other moment in the game combined.

The thing that killed her parents as well as the ENTIRE platoon and feasted on their corpses, has never returned completely unharmed after being vaporized into dust before. Prime lore says he became a cyborg to support his body and I have some theories for Super Metroid as well. How the hell was Samus supposed to know the Galactic Federation cloned him? She doesn't realize this until Melissa tells her, AFTER the fight.

Are you saying that, with all of the times in the game that Samus is fighting off creatures with no signs of fear, that THIS ONE MOMENT is the definition of her character? I'll say it again, 2 minutes compared to hours of fearless killing. Hell, after Anthony "dies", she treats Ridley like the Samus from all of the other games has.

[quote="Turtle"][quote="MetroidJunkie"]She didn't really panic, she was basically frozen, and she DOES "conquer the fear", 2 minutes afterwards, and has no relapse for any of the rest of the game. You're still harping on 2 damned minutes. 2 little insignificant minutes.[/quote]
What do you call "panic"?  Because "freezing up under duress" is exactly how I'd define it.  She only snaps out of it (for reasons still unexplained) when Anthony gets "killed," not because she was able to overcome it on her own.  And I'm talking about degree, not extent.  Samus' character was degraded more in those two minutes than in every other moment in the game combined.
[/quote]

The thing that killed her parents as well as the ENTIRE platoon and feasted on their corpses, has never returned completely unharmed after being vaporized into dust before. Prime lore says he became a cyborg to support his body and I have some theories for Super Metroid as well. How the hell was Samus supposed to know the Galactic Federation cloned him? She doesn't realize this until Melissa tells her, AFTER the fight.

Are you saying that, with all of the times in the game that Samus is fighting off creatures with no signs of fear, that THIS ONE MOMENT is the definition of her character? I'll say it again, 2 minutes compared to hours of fearless killing. Hell, after Anthony "dies", she treats Ridley like the Samus from all of the other games has.

sabata2

Edit history:

sabata2: 2010-12-18 07:21:50 pm

2010-12-18 07:21:21 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

Quote from Turtle:

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

She didn't really panic, she was basically frozen, and she DOES "conquer the fear", 2 minutes afterwards, and has no relapse for any of the rest of the game. You're still harping on 2 damned minutes. 2 little insignificant minutes.

What do you call "panic"? Because "freezing up under duress" is exactly how I'd define it. She only snaps out of it (for reasons still unexplained) when Anthony gets "killed," not because she was able to overcome it on her own. And I'm talking about degree, not extent. Samus' character was degraded more in those two minutes than in every other moment in the game combined.

The thing that killed her parents as well as the ENTIRE platoon and feasted on their corpses, has never returned completely unharmed after being vaporized into dust. Are you saying that, with all of the times in the game that Samus is fighting off creatures with no signs of fear, that THIS ONE MOMENT is the definition of her character? I'll say it again, 2 minutes compared to hours of fearless killing. Hell, after Anthony "dies", she treats Ridley like the Samus from all of the other games has.

Seeing as she fights the same enemy 4 times prior (taking ZM, Prime, Corruption, Super) and doesn't show any of what's shown in the 2 minutes...
Yes.

[quote="MetroidJunkie"][quote="Turtle"][quote="MetroidJunkie"]She didn't really panic, she was basically frozen, and she DOES "conquer the fear", 2 minutes afterwards, and has no relapse for any of the rest of the game. You're still harping on 2 damned minutes. 2 little insignificant minutes.[/quote]
What do you call "panic"?  Because "freezing up under duress" is exactly how I'd define it.  She only snaps out of it (for reasons still unexplained) when Anthony gets "killed," not because she was able to overcome it on her own.  And I'm talking about degree, not extent.  Samus' character was degraded more in those two minutes than in every other moment in the game combined.
[/quote]

The thing that killed her parents as well as the ENTIRE platoon and feasted on their corpses, has never returned completely unharmed after being vaporized into dust. [b][i][u]Are you saying that, with all of the times in the game that Samus is fighting off creatures with no signs of fear, that THIS ONE MOMENT is the definition of her character?[/u][/i][/b] I'll say it again, 2 minutes compared to hours of fearless killing. Hell, after Anthony "dies", she treats Ridley like the Samus from all of the other games has.[/quote]

Seeing as she fights the same enemy 4 times prior (taking ZM, Prime, Corruption, Super) and doesn't show any of what's shown in the 2 minutes...
Yes.

MetroidJunkie

Edit history:

MetroidJunkie: 2010-12-18 07:26:26 pm

2010-12-18 07:25:47 pm

Quote from sabata2:

Seeing as she fights the same enemy 4 times prior (taking ZM, Prime, Corruption, Super) and doesn't show any of what's shown in the 2 minutes...
Yes.

I guess people don't want to listen. Sakamoto was never in charge before. Retro Studios had control and they likely never read the manga nor knew of its existence. When the primary director change, it's going to be different. Sakamoto obviously wanted a more manga-like Samus. You can't fairly compare Retro Studios' work to Sakamoto's vision. Also, maybe Samus WAS afraid of him but never showed signs before. Remember, no other game shows Samus' thoughts aside from Super Metroid's intro and some of Fusion.

Turtle

Edit history:

Turtle: 2010-12-18 07:42:02 pm

2010-12-18 07:41:24 pm

I like turtles.

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

The thing that killed her parents as well as the ENTIRE platoon and feasted on their corpses, has never returned completely unharmed after being vaporized into dust before. Prime lore says he became a cyborg to support his body and I have some theories for Super Metroid as well. How the hell was Samus supposed to know the Galactic Federation cloned him? She doesn't realize this until Melissa tells her, AFTER the fight.

You have some theories? It doesn't work that way. There's nothing in Super to indicate his being anything except himself, in the flesh, and fan theories won't change that. And even if there were, why should his being a cyborg be any less likely to trigger Samus' supposed PTSD? He's still easily recognizable as Ridley, and the impression I got from the so-called experts is that it only takes a familiar image or reminder of the trauma to trigger the disorder. Unless he was completely unrecognizable after being brought back, I don't see why that should matter.

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

Are you saying that, with all of the times in the game that Samus is fighting off creatures with no signs of fear, that THIS ONE MOMENT is the definition of her character? I'll say it again, 2 minutes compared to hours of fearless killing. Hell, after Anthony "dies", she treats Ridley like the Samus from all of the other games has.

No, I'm not saying it defines her character, but it is highly disrespectful. As I've said more than once in this very thread, part of the reason the scene is so horrendous is because of its sharp contrast with all other portrayals of Samus, including her portrayal in Other M. The two minutes stand out like a sore thumb because they clash so extremely with everything else in the game. And they are that much more disrespectful to Samus as a result.

And yes, she goes back to being Samus very shortly afterward. Almost as much as I've pointed out the aforementioned argument about the scene's contrast with the rest of the game, I've questioned why we couldn't have just skipped the panic attack, especially since even its defenders seem to admit that it has no lasting significance, relevance, or bearing of any kind on the story. And I've been given a straight counterargument about the latter issue nearly as often as with the the former. Which is to say not at all.

[quote="MetroidJunkie"]
The thing that killed her parents as well as the ENTIRE platoon and feasted on their corpses, has never returned completely unharmed after being vaporized into dust before. Prime lore says he became a cyborg to support his body and I have some theories for Super Metroid as well. How the hell was Samus supposed to know the Galactic Federation cloned him? She doesn't realize this until Melissa tells her, AFTER the fight.
[/quote]
You have some [i]theories[/i]?  It doesn't work that way.  There's nothing in [i]Super[/i] to indicate his being anything except himself, in the flesh, and fan theories won't change that.  And even if there were, why should his being a cyborg be any less likely to trigger Samus' supposed PTSD?  He's still easily recognizable as Ridley, and the impression I got from the so-called experts is that it only takes a familiar image or reminder of the trauma to trigger the disorder.  Unless he was completely unrecognizable after being brought back, I don't see why that should matter.

[quote="MetroidJunkie"]Are you saying that, with all of the times in the game that Samus is fighting off creatures with no signs of fear, that THIS ONE MOMENT is the definition of her character? I'll say it again, 2 minutes compared to hours of fearless killing. Hell, after Anthony "dies", she treats Ridley like the Samus from all of the other games has.[/quote]
No, I'm not saying it defines her character, but it is highly disrespectful.  As I've said more than once in this very thread, part of the reason the scene is so horrendous is because of its sharp contrast with all other portrayals of Samus, including her portrayal in [i]Other M[/i].  The two minutes stand out like a sore thumb because they clash so extremely with [i]everything[/i] else in the game.  And they are that much more disrespectful to Samus as a result.

And yes, she goes back to being Samus very shortly afterward.  Almost as much as I've pointed out the aforementioned argument about the scene's contrast with the rest of the game, I've questioned why we couldn't have just skipped the panic attack, especially since even its defenders seem to admit that it has no lasting significance, relevance, or bearing of any kind on the story.  And I've been given a straight counterargument about the latter issue nearly as often as with the the former.  Which is to say not at all.

sabata2

Edit history:

sabata2: 2010-12-18 07:43:52 pm

2010-12-18 07:42:09 pm

ANKOKU

And again we're back to it having a REALLY poor introduction to those 2 minutes.

Because it was so poorly done, it completely redefined her character. (atleast in my, and other's opinions)

MetroidJunkie

2010-12-18 07:47:03 pm

The only thing I see is that the game does a poor job of explaining what Ridley did to her to make her so traumatized. Samus NEVER expected him to come back, she thought he was dead for good. I assume seeing someone come back as a cyborg (Which makes some logical sense) is the exact same as him being crushed into space dust and appearing without so much as a scratch? Perhaps the idea that Ridley is some immortal god is what induced the PTSD?

Again, you can't know without asking Sakamoto. The scene was poorly described, but I believe it was still fair enough in its presentation. Its significance is showing Samus with fear for once in the games. I suppose some people would rather have Samus with absolutely no fear. Do you also think her insecurities are horrible and should be removed? Yes, let's remove all of Samus' flaws and make her a perfect killing machine who doesn't listen to anyone. Woman warrior = man with vagina.

Turtle

2010-12-18 07:50:48 pm

I like turtles.

She thought he was gone for good in the beginning of Prime, arguably Corruption, and Super. Funny how she didn't panic in any of those scenarios.

And her insecurities didn't almost get her killed or make her look weak, and were presented better. Although that's not saying much.

sabata2

Edit history:

sabata2: 2010-12-18 07:52:12 pm

2010-12-18 07:51:51 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

Woman warrior = man with vagina.

No, woman warrior = warrior that happens to be a female.

Do NOT get me started on this politically correct bullshit again.

MetroidJunkie

2010-12-18 07:52:34 pm

Quote from Turtle:

She thought he was gone for good in the beginning of Prime, arguably Corruption, and Super. Funny how she didn't panic in any of those scenarios.

And her insecurities didn't almost get her killed or make her look weak, and were presented better. Although that's not saying much.

When did she EVER have insecurities before? I must be drawing a blank, Samus seems like this blank killing machine in every other game. I thought the hook was that you could insert yourself into that personality free helmet. Also, the planet didn't blow up on him before, Samus is also never expressing her thoughts before so you're basically going by the assumption that Samus thought he was dead before.

sabata2

2010-12-18 07:54:26 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

When did she EVER have insecurities before? I must be drawing a blank, Samus seems like this blank killing machine in every other game. I thought the hook was that you could insert yourself into that personality free helmet. Also, the planet didn't blow up on him before, Samus is also never expressing her thoughts before so you're basically going by the assumption that Samus thought he was dead before.

Quote from Turtle:

-She shows clear anger at seeing Ridley alive at the beginning of Prime (not fear or despair or desperate denial; anger).
-She also closes the eye of the Marine Captain in the beginning of Echoes. Compassion.
-She's clearly creeped out by Dark Samus' "death" at the end of Echoes.
-She spares the baby Metroid out of sympathy and perhaps regret over committing genocide.
-She RAGES when said Metroid is killed by Mother Brain. I've said it before, I'll say it again: the anger in that scene is palpable, and that's something that not even modern games can always achieve.
-She expresses annoyance and surprise before and after she learns the true nature of her CO's AI in Fusion.

Just because she's not constantly whining about her feelings doesn't mean her displays of emotion are any less valid when they do happen.

Also, you're going by the assumption she DIDN'T think he was dead before. That doesn't work as a counter to our argument because it can be flipped and used right against you again.

[quote="MetroidJunkie"]When did she EVER have insecurities before? [u][i][b]I must be drawing a blank, Samus seems like this blank killing machine in every other game.[/b][/i][/u] I thought the hook was that you could insert yourself into that personality free helmet. Also, the planet didn't blow up on him before, Samus is also never expressing her thoughts before so you're basically going by the assumption that Samus thought he was dead before.[/quote]

[quote="Turtle"]-She shows clear anger at seeing Ridley alive at the beginning of [i]Prime[/i] (not fear or despair or desperate denial; [i]anger[/i]).
-She also closes the eye of the Marine Captain in the beginning of [i]Echoes[/i].  Compassion.
-She's clearly creeped out by Dark Samus' "death" at the end of [i]Echoes[/i].
-She spares the baby Metroid out of sympathy and perhaps regret over committing genocide.
-She RAGES when said Metroid is killed by Mother Brain.  I've said it before, I'll say it again: the anger in that scene is palpable, and that's something that not even modern games can always achieve.
-She expresses annoyance and surprise before and after she learns the true nature of her CO's AI in [i]Fusion[/i].

Just because she's not constantly whining about her feelings doesn't mean her displays of emotion are any less valid when they do happen.[/quote]

Also, you're going by the assumption she DIDN'T think he was dead before. That doesn't work as a counter to our argument because it can be flipped and used right against you again.

Turtle

2010-12-18 07:55:28 pm

I like turtles.

Uh, why would she not think he was dead? She did, y'know, kill him. Personally.

MetroidJunkie

2010-12-18 07:55:57 pm

Quote from Turtle:

Uh, why would she not think he was dead? She did, y'know, kill him. Personally.

At the end of Zero Mission, he's already back as a robot. I doubt Samus would be surprised at him becoming a cyborg later on.

sabata2

Edit history:

sabata2: 2010-12-18 07:57:50 pm

2010-12-18 07:57:28 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

Quote from Turtle:

Uh, why would she not think he was dead? She did, y'know, kill him. Personally.

At the end of Zero Mission, he's already back as a robot. I doubt Samus would be surprised at him becoming a cyborg later on.

If we're desensitizing her to the point that a return WITHIN THE FIRST GAME SHE KILLED HIM doesn't phase her, then Other M makes NO sense because "I killed him and he came back 30 minutes later the first time, I should have figured even a planet couldn't stop him"

MetroidJunkie

2010-12-18 07:59:23 pm

-She shows clear anger at seeing Ridley alive at the beginning of Prime (not fear or despair or desperate denial; anger).
> Anger anger anger, must kill everything.
-She also closes the eye of the Marine Captain in the beginning of Echoes. Compassion.
> So she cares enough to close his eye, she doesn't exactly show a sad face.
-She's clearly creeped out by Dark Samus' "death" at the end of Echoes.
> Clearly? She looks more curious than creeped out.
-She spares the baby Metroid out of sympathy and perhaps regret over committing genocide.
> She immediately delivers it to the Federation so you could argue she was just seeing its paternal connection as a reason to exploit it.
-She RAGES when said Metroid is killed by Mother Brain. I've said it before, I'll say it again: the anger in that scene is palpable, and that's something that not even modern games can always achieve.
> She only shoots when you make her shoot, that's not Samus' anger.
-She expresses annoyance and surprise before and after she learns the true nature of her CO's AI in Fusion.
> Back to the lovely little rage. Surprise isn't exactly a flawed emotion.
Just because she's not constantly whining about her feelings doesn't mean her displays of emotion are any less valid when they do happen.
> So Samus isn't allowed to have any emotions that could affect her. She's only allowed to show mild emotion for the sake of showing emotion, because people in real life don't EVER have influenced combat abilities. They're 100% killing mode. There are troops in real life in the army, name one of them that is ALWAYS in complete control.

-She shows clear anger at seeing Ridley alive at the beginning of Prime (not fear or despair or desperate denial; anger).
> Anger anger anger, must kill everything.
-She also closes the eye of the Marine Captain in the beginning of Echoes.  Compassion.
> So she cares enough to close his eye, she doesn't exactly show a sad face.
-She's clearly creeped out by Dark Samus' "death" at the end of Echoes.
> Clearly? She looks more curious than creeped out.
-She spares the baby Metroid out of sympathy and perhaps regret over committing genocide.
> She immediately delivers it to the Federation so you could argue she was just seeing its paternal connection as a reason to exploit it.
-She RAGES when said Metroid is killed by Mother Brain.  I've said it before, I'll say it again: the anger in that scene is palpable, and that's something that not even modern games can always achieve.
> She only shoots when you make her shoot, that's not Samus' anger.
-She expresses annoyance and surprise before and after she learns the true nature of her CO's AI in Fusion.
> Back to the lovely little rage. Surprise isn't exactly a flawed emotion.
Just because she's not constantly whining about her feelings doesn't mean her displays of emotion are any less valid when they do happen.
> So Samus isn't allowed to have any emotions that could affect her. She's only allowed to show mild emotion for the sake of showing emotion, because people in real life don't EVER have influenced combat abilities. They're 100% killing mode. There are troops in real life in the army, name one of them that is ALWAYS in complete control.

MetroidJunkie

2010-12-18 08:01:25 pm

Quote from sabata2:

If we're desensitizing her to the point that a return WITHIN THE FIRST GAME SHE KILLED HIM doesn't phase her, then Other M makes NO sense because "I killed him and he came back 30 minutes later the first time, I should have figured even a planet couldn't stop him"

Facing Ridley the first time literally did nothing but make her glare at him, I don't think that's a reasonable interpretation of her reactions.

sabata2

Edit history:

sabata2: 2010-12-18 08:15:19 pm

sabata2: 2010-12-18 08:14:15 pm

2010-12-18 08:13:06 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

> So she cares enough to close his eye, she doesn't exactly show a sad face.
You'd rather she BAWW? Regardless of the level you can't deny it is a clear show of emotion.
> She immediately delivers it to the Federation so you could argue she was just seeing its paternal connection as a reason to exploit it.
Because after having killed oh so many organisms and practically wiping out an entire specie, trying to take it to scientists to actually use it for GOOD, and to GAIN something from genocide, is obviously not a point towards remorse or anything but "Samus is a robotic killing machine"
> She only shoots when you make her shoot, that's not Samus' anger.
Not according to Other M's intro. That actually solidifies his claim, and outside of the voice acting being sub par, does so WELL.
> Back to the lovely little rage. Surprise isn't exactly a flawed emotion.
Annoyance and surprise != rage. lrn2emote
> So Samus isn't allowed to have any emotions that could affect her. She's only allowed to show mild emotion for the sake of showing emotion, because people in real life don't EVER have influenced combat abilities. They're 100% killing mode. There are troops in real life in the army, name one of them that is ALWAYS in complete control.
Aaand we have this...
1) You imply that subtle means unaffecting.
2) You imply that subtle emotion means no emotion.
3) You imply that subtle emotions aren't actual emotions with "for the sake of showing emotion"

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

Facing Ridley the first time literally did nothing but make her glare at him, I don't think that's a reasonable interpretation of her reactions.

Then we have absolutely no reason to believe that seeing Mecha-Ridley desensitized her at all for Prime, Corruption, or Super.
And because we have no reason to believe she was desensitized, her reaction in Other M, but non-reaction in ZM/Prime/Corruption/Super completely contradict each other.

[quote="MetroidJunkie"]> So she cares enough to close his eye, she doesn't exactly show a sad face.
[b]You'd rather she BAWW? Regardless of the level you can't deny it is a clear show of emotion.[/b]
> She immediately delivers it to the Federation so you could argue she was just seeing its paternal connection as a reason to exploit it.
[b]Because after having killed oh so many organisms and practically wiping out an entire specie, trying to take it to scientists to actually use it for GOOD, and to GAIN something from genocide, is obviously not a point towards remorse or anything but "Samus is a robotic killing machine"[/b]
> She only shoots when you make her shoot, that's not Samus' anger.
[b]Not according to Other M's intro. That actually solidifies his claim, and outside of the voice acting being sub par, does so WELL.[/b]
> Back to the lovely little rage. Surprise isn't exactly a flawed emotion.
[b]Annoyance and surprise != rage. lrn2emote[/b]
> So Samus isn't allowed to have any emotions that could affect her. She's only allowed to show mild emotion for the sake of showing emotion, because people in real life don't EVER have influenced combat abilities. They're 100% killing mode. There are troops in real life in the army, name one of them that is ALWAYS in complete control.[b]
Aaand we have this...
1) You imply that subtle means unaffecting.
2) You imply that subtle emotion means no emotion.
3) You imply that subtle emotions aren't actual emotions with "for the sake of showing emotion"[/b]
[img]http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/2/6/129099886145036139.jpg[/img][/quote]

[quote="MetroidJunkie"]Facing Ridley the first time literally did nothing but make her glare at him, I don't think that's a reasonable interpretation of her reactions.[/quote]
Then we have absolutely no reason to believe that seeing Mecha-Ridley desensitized her at all for Prime, Corruption, or Super.
And because we have no reason to believe she was desensitized, her reaction in Other M, but non-reaction in ZM/Prime/Corruption/Super completely contradict each other.