Has the Prime trilogy been retconned out of existence?

Edit history:

sabata2: 2010-09-24 04:57:01 pm

2010-09-24 04:56:35 pm

ANKOKU

Why would the Chozo share their data with the GFeds if they held all the knowledge to build it? Your second point doesn't hold.

And SnoopyCool is the best and most widely known manga translator around. He lets the readers know when he didn't know what something said (for example he made up some of the Officer names since there's nothing on record and even then they were close). But to imply that he actually intentionally manipulated the plotline and events is insulting, and quite often the FIRST response given when data from another language is presented.

Try not to use carbon copy responses when faced with facts you can't refute.

kesvalk

2010-09-24 08:51:44 pm

Indie Lover

there are some scans in corruption that say the AU are salvaged chozo technology, i think there are some scans in elisya that say the chozo brought the AU to control the robotic race there...

TheMG2

2010-09-24 09:01:52 pm

@kesvalk: What? No it didn't.

@sabata2: ...I completely forgot you're supposed to read manga from right to left.

sabata2

2010-09-24 09:40:00 pm

ANKOKU

Sarrite. For someone who doesn't read it often that would actually be common.

I read manga too often and have caught myself reading the Sunday Funnies backwards and being confused as hell >_>

Toozin

Edit history:

Toozin: 2010-09-25 04:17:53 am

2010-09-25 04:17:05 am

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

I think it's best that everyone stop refrencing the manga for any argument.

ajbolt89

2010-09-25 05:15:41 am

lol no way

Yeah dudes. If you wanna reference the manga, go to the MDB. If you wanna post about gameplay, this is the place for you. There is no middle ground.

Toozin

2010-09-25 05:27:58 am

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

Oh, don't twist my words aj. I simply meant that the manga's canon status is extremely questionable, and even if not the only English translation is fan-made which cannot be taken as gospel. Using the manga to prove any plot-based arguments just convoluted things unnecesarly. It's best left by the wayside.

KingBroly

2010-09-25 05:32:15 am

I thought the manga was just to introduce the core concepts myself.

sabata2

2010-09-25 05:35:34 am

ANKOKU

The only problem with that black or white view is that SO many questions and theories NEVER progress.

And by that I mean if you limit your view, you limit your knowledge. Not that the questions/theories posed need definitions.

Toozin

2010-09-25 05:43:48 am

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

If you're using a fan-translated non-canon story to back up your theory then your theory is probably wrong.

sabata2

2010-09-25 05:55:52 am

ANKOKU

Didn't Ninty state the Manga was canon though? -_-

Pretty sure no one would use the manga if it was non-canon.

Toozin

2010-09-25 06:05:54 am

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

The manga is only canon until the games contradict it. That's pretty much happened with Other M. Game canon overrides external media canon.

sabata2

Edit history:

sabata2: 2010-09-25 06:22:13 am

2010-09-25 06:17:57 am

ANKOKU

I... don't recall anything in Other M that contradicted the Manga. I remember that OM contradicted other GAMES but not the Manga.

Also, as for minor things that were retconned, that doesn't completely remove the former from canon. That is, unless the entire thing is replaced (IE Metroid -> ZM), it stays canon.

KingBroly

2010-09-25 07:01:04 am

Other M contradicted the manga quite a bit. Other M is actually more in line with other games (namely Fusion) than you'd initially think.

tomatobob

2010-09-25 07:27:01 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

The problem with applying the manga to whatever passes for Metroid canon is that it is an entirely different thing than the games. In the manga the protagonist has to be more fleshed out and events have to be strictly structured so as to keep the reader engaged and interested in following along. The games have no such burden and due the the mostly blank nature of the character everyone will have a slightly different idea of who they are and where they've been. Videogame Samus is an empty vessel that the player fills with their individual experiences from each game. For some she's someone blitzes through everything, getting the job done as quickly and efficiently as possible smoking bosses like they ain't no thang; for others she is more through and methodical, struggling a bit more with bosses. There are nearly infinite versions of this one character formed from the basic outline given from the beginning, and this is the strength of that character where videogames are concerned.

Videogame Samus is ultimately whatever the player wants her to be and the story of each game is what the player wants it to be, with the important details filled in by the game or in the manual. Pointing to the manga as a source when all any of us are going to see is a fan translated version, no matter how good the translator may or may not be (There are professionals who have issues translating this kind of thing, it's not the easiest thing.), just isn't going to work for most people. It's more of a summary of the game's events with some added flavor to keep interest.

But just one particular view of the game's events.

For a game that has little to no story in the first place this is a problem. You can't stop everything before fighting Ridley so you can have a chat with the chozo in the game. Doesn't matter who says you did. Every player's experience will contradict the manga and with nothing in game to support the manga's version of everything, individual interpretations will take precedence. Particularly in a series like this where people have had a long time to decide who or what Samus is and how each event played out.

You may as well be pointing to all the extended universe stuff floating around for Star Wars/Trek to prove some point about what actually happened in their respective movies/series/ both. You may find it interesting or helpful, but no one is under any obligation to recognize your sources as anything other than glorified fanfiction and therefore irrelevant. Which sort of brings up the primary issue with using the manga as a source:

The manga is glorified fanfiction and therefore irrelevant to the majority of fans.

If Zero Mission was made specifically to tie in with a manga being made along side it by the same people who were working on the game you'd have a definite case, more so if this manga was available with an in house translation along with the game itself. But that isn't the case, the manga is nothing more than a cash grab and/or extended advertisement to drum up interest in a series that has traditionally done poorly in its home market. Manga and game are related in name only, they are very different by necessity and the validity of one over the other can be questionable at best. The games will take priority by being in the proper format for most, while others will be more willing to accept the manga as a valid source of information. The latter must understand, though, that there is no reason for anyone else to follow suit. Videogame Samus came first, and people are comfortable with her, trying to force the idea that this other character is the same doesn't work as well as you'd think.

The problem with applying the manga to whatever passes for Metroid canon is that it is an entirely different thing than the games. In the manga the protagonist has to be more fleshed out and events have to be strictly structured so as to keep the reader engaged and interested in following along. The games have no such burden and due the the mostly blank nature of the character everyone will have a slightly different idea of who they are and where they've been. Videogame Samus is an empty vessel that the player fills with their individual experiences from each game. For some she's someone blitzes through everything, getting the job done as quickly and efficiently as possible smoking bosses like they ain't no thang; for others she is more through and methodical, struggling a bit more with bosses. There are nearly infinite versions of this one character formed from the basic outline given from the beginning, and this is the strength of that character where videogames are concerned.

Videogame Samus is ultimately whatever the player wants her to be and the story of each game is what the player wants it to be, with the important details filled in by the game or in the manual. Pointing to the manga as a source when all any of us are going to see is a fan translated version, no matter how good the translator may or may not be (There are [i]professionals[/i] who have issues translating this kind of thing, it's not the easiest thing.), just isn't going to work for most people. It's more of a summary of the game's events with some added flavor to keep interest.

But just one particular view of the game's events.

For a game that has little to no story in the first place this is a problem. You can't stop everything before fighting Ridley so you can have a chat with the chozo in the game. Doesn't matter who says you did. Every player's experience will contradict the manga and with nothing in game to support the manga's version of everything, individual interpretations will take precedence. Particularly in a series like this where people have had a long time to decide who or what Samus is and how each event played out.

You may as well be pointing to all the extended universe stuff floating around for Star Wars/Trek to prove some point about what actually happened in their respective movies/series/ both. You may find it interesting or helpful, but no one is under any obligation to recognize your sources as anything other than glorified fanfiction and therefore irrelevant. Which sort of brings up the primary issue with using the manga as a source:

The manga is glorified fanfiction and therefore irrelevant to the majority of fans.

If Zero Mission was made specifically to tie in with a manga being made along side it by the same people who were working on the game you'd have a definite case, more so if this manga was available with an in house translation along with the game itself. But that isn't the case, the manga is nothing more than a cash grab and/or extended advertisement to drum up interest in a series that has traditionally done poorly in its home market. Manga and game are related in name only, they are very different by necessity and the validity of one over the other can be questionable at best. The games will take priority by being in the proper format for most, while others will be more willing to accept the manga as a valid source of information. The latter must understand, though, that there is no reason for anyone else to follow suit. Videogame Samus came first, and people are comfortable with her, trying to force the idea that this other character is the same doesn't work as well as you'd think.

TheMG2

2010-09-25 07:57:58 am

Wow, that was an epic post.

Hitaka

Edit history:

Hitaka: 2010-09-25 04:24:16 pm

Hitaka: 2010-09-25 12:35:38 pm

Hitaka: 2010-09-25 12:34:03 pm

Hitaka: 2010-09-25 12:32:36 pm

Hitaka: 2010-09-25 12:31:34 pm

Hitaka: 2010-09-25 12:31:06 pm

Hitaka: 2010-09-25 12:28:11 pm

2010-09-25 12:22:11 pm

Phoenix

Thank you, tomatobob. You are awesome.

My main problem with the manga is the stupid parts that make no sense. Like how the Chozo are dying out because their long lifespans made them too old to reproduce. Well gee, that's why you do it when you're younger, hurf durf. They could not possibly be that stupid. Not only that, but a long lifespan would give them MORE time to reproduce before they went through birdy menopause.

Oh, and how they had wings in the relatively near past. Wings don't just fall off. It would take tens of thousands if not millions of years to lose them completely, and even then there would be some kind of vestigial fragment of them left over. And of course, how would they manage to evolve at all while not reproducing?

No, I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm just venting.

Chozoid

2010-09-25 12:58:11 pm

yeah, the manga's pretty stupid. i hate how they made Mother Brain Samus' "mother"

Toozin

2010-09-25 04:11:09 pm

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

As usual, tomatobob says what I think infinitely better than I ever could.

Baron Dante

2010-09-25 05:46:06 pm

They didn't make Mother Brain Samus's mother. Mother Brain decided that because she is a stupid brain that she has to be Samus's mother.

Samus didn't have a chat with a Chozo before fighting Ridley in the end. She was having hallusinations.

And the most important thing: If Nintendo says it's canon, it's fucking canon and they don't give a shit about your opinion, even if one were right. :(

UchihaSasuke

Edit history:

UchihaSasuke: 2010-09-25 06:15:07 pm

UchihaSasuke: 2010-09-25 06:11:37 pm

2010-09-25 06:09:46 pm

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

i saw the manga mostly as a fill in for the past events that are hard to put in a game. how would you fit all that backstory if the point of the series is Samus fighting metroids and she encounters them in M1/ZM for the first time. a game before that wouldn't really make sense since she doesn't fight any big threat or really achieve anything big (she's in a losing state in most of it).
i think that if they adapted the key points of the manga as flashback cutscenes across the series, it would have made it easier to accept since we would be getting the backstory along the progression of the games and people would actually care about what happens in the story
that brings up another point: other M completely failed at telling samus' backstory like it was promised it would do. i thought we would get to see her get the power suit, the first encounter with mother brain, seeing chozo alive and also seeing her very first encounter with Ridley and the destruction of her home planet. inatead, we got some lame thumbs down stuff and a ship accident that is pretty minor and forgettable as samus' backstory.

i saw the manga mostly as a fill in for the past events that are hard to put in a game. how would you fit all that backstory if the point of the series is Samus fighting metroids and she encounters them in M1/ZM for the first time. a game before that wouldn't really make sense since she doesn't fight any big threat or really achieve anything big (she's in a losing state in most of it). 
i think that if they adapted the key points of the manga as flashback cutscenes across the series, it would have made it easier to accept since we would be getting the backstory along the progression of the games and people would actually care about what happens in the story
that brings up another point: other M completely failed at telling samus' backstory like it was promised it would do. i thought we would get to see her get the power suit, the first encounter with mother brain, seeing chozo alive and also seeing her very first encounter with Ridley and the destruction of her home planet. inatead, we got some lame thumbs down stuff and a ship accident that is pretty minor and forgettable as samus' backstory.

Baron Dante

2010-09-25 06:28:25 pm

Yeah. Err, Other M is made by japanese, so they feel no reason to recount the tales from the manga. -.- Fuck them, other world sales for the series will drop if they keep going with that mentality, and then it will die.

UchihaSasuke

2010-09-25 06:33:44 pm

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

the cutscenes would be welcome if they were actually well made, not like the bad stuff we got in other M.

KingBroly

2010-09-25 07:06:15 pm

I think the cutscenes were well made. The game was just poorly localized.

sabata2

Edit history:

sabata2: 2010-09-25 08:26:19 pm

sabata2: 2010-09-25 08:25:30 pm

sabata2: 2010-09-25 08:24:51 pm

sabata2: 2010-09-25 08:24:12 pm

sabata2: 2010-09-25 08:22:57 pm

2010-09-25 08:17:46 pm

ANKOKU

ZM does tie in with the manga... case and point the little drawing after you beat it that shows Old Bird, Grey Voice, and Samus as a child on the Chozo Warrior mural.

And I'm pretty sure some of the Ending scenes show Samus as a Child playing with Old Bird.
Scratch that, it's from the ZM Fusion link.
See: 2:31 -> 3:23

Say what you wish, the Manga is as canon as the games, and referencing it is perfectly fine in arguments and points.