Has the Prime trilogy been retconned out of existence?

2010-12-17 03:43:30 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from Opium:

Has this thread been retconned out of existence yet?

Please tells us a story of the adventures of tranny Samus that overwrites Other M's existence. It's really the only way to save Metroid from itself.

UchihaSasuke

2010-12-17 04:00:27 pm

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

at the very least, nintendo is retconning some elements from the early days. that's the most common problem with series that go on for so long.

Edit history:

sabata2: 2010-12-17 07:29:41 pm

2010-12-17 07:29:09 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

As for the manga coming out after Prime, wouldn't that justify it further? Retro Studios wasn't aware of this PTSD backstory when they were designing the game and, since Nintendo gave the thumbs up for the written manga, that would make it canon. However, Retro must've either had some objection with the Ridley in Corruption or they simply never thought to include it. I still think Samus fearing ONE enemy in the entire game isn't grounds for calling her weak and helpless.

Or Retro could be exactly like every other Metroid game follower out there, and have not known about the manga.
Remember it was NEVER translated officially, so unless the guys at Retro, in the story department, had a real hard-on for Metroid they'd never know of nor read the Manga.
And it's not the fear of Ridley that displays her as weak or helpless. It's the way it was presented.
If throughout the entire game of Other M, we kept getting subtle hints of Samus's fear when fighting Ridley in the Zero Mission, Prime, Corruption, and Super THEN Ridley shows his big ass in all his terrifying glory it'd make a LOT more sense to the casual gamer. It'd be even better if they kept referencing the whole "But he's dead now" and then revealed him to be alive, it'd be an even better reveal.

I'm a mediocre writer, but I could have written a better intro to that scene so that the gamers who didn't know about her PTSD wouldn't be "zomgwtf that's not Samus"

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Quote from Turtle:

Character flaws do not make a good character.

To be honest, I've always felt that a good character with at least one major flaw are the best characters overall. Makes them seem more real, since nobody is absolutely perfect. Sort of like how I don't really like Superman that much but love Batman, due in part to the way their powers/weaknesses are handled. Yeah, you're right that any character can be good or bad depending on the writing, but if there's a perfect and flawed character working off of the same level of quality, chances are I'll go for the flawed one in the end because they're more believable to me. (Obviously I do like some perfect characters, but I can't think of any specific examples at this moment.)

Just to explicitly state it, a good character CAN have flaws, but flaws to not make a good character. It's not a If and ONLY If relationship.

As to "flawless characters you like"...
Captain mother-fucking Falcon.
Guy saves lives, wins races, and doesn't afraid of anything.

[quote="MetroidJunkie"]As for the manga coming out after Prime, wouldn't that justify it further? Retro Studios wasn't aware of this PTSD backstory when they were designing the game and, since Nintendo gave the thumbs up for the written manga, that would make it canon. However, Retro must've either had some objection with the Ridley in Corruption or they simply never thought to include it. I still think Samus fearing ONE enemy in the entire game isn't grounds for calling her weak and helpless.[/quote]
Or Retro could be exactly like every other Metroid game follower out there, and have [i]not known[/i] about the manga.
Remember it was NEVER translated officially, so unless the guys at Retro, in the story department, had a real hard-on for Metroid they'd never know of nor read the Manga.
And it's not the fear of Ridley that displays her as weak or helpless. It's [u]the way it was presented[/u].
If throughout the entire game of Other M, we kept getting subtle hints of Samus's fear when fighting Ridley in the Zero Mission, Prime, Corruption, and Super THEN Ridley shows his big ass in all his terrifying glory it'd make a LOT more sense to the casual gamer. It'd be even better if they kept referencing the whole "But he's dead now" and then revealed him to be alive, it'd be an even better reveal.

I'm a mediocre writer, but I could have written a better intro to that scene so that the gamers who didn't know about her PTSD wouldn't be "zomgwtf that's not Samus"

[quote="Prime Hunter"][quote="Turtle"]Character flaws do not make a good character.[/quote]
To be honest, I've always felt that a good character with at least one major flaw are the best characters overall. Makes them seem more real, since nobody is absolutely perfect. Sort of like how I don't really like Superman that much but love Batman, due in part to the way their powers/weaknesses are handled. Yeah, you're right that any character can be good or bad depending on the writing, but if there's a perfect and flawed character working off of the same level of quality, chances are I'll go for the flawed one in the end because they're more believable to me. (Obviously I do like some perfect characters, but I can't think of any specific examples at this moment.)[/quote]
Just to explicitly state it, a good character CAN have flaws, but flaws to not make a good character. It's not a If and ONLY If relationship.

As to "flawless characters you like"...
Captain mother-fucking Falcon.
Guy saves lives, wins races, and doesn't afraid of anything.

2010-12-17 07:38:09 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from sabata2:

If throughout the entire game of Other M, we kept getting subtle hints of Samus's fear when fighting Ridley in the Zero Mission, Prime, Corruption, and Super THEN Ridley shows his big ass in all his terrifying glory it'd make a LOT more sense to the casual gamer.

Ridley dropping the goatse on Samus would own so hard I would have bought fifty Other Ms if that happened instead of what we got.

TheMG2

2010-12-17 07:39:44 pm

About the character flaws thing... See Luigi vs Mario.

2010-12-17 07:41:11 pm

Quote from Turtle:

But the difference between shutting the Captain's eyes in Echoes and the Ridley scene is mostly that you can reasonably expect the player to maybe be a little sad at seeing the tragedy in the former, but you can't reasonably expect the player to feel the same abject despair that Samus does in the latter. And when you can't get the player to see through the protagonist's eyes even a little bit, that's a sign of an implausibly-written scene.

You realize that "seeing through the character's eyes and injecting your own personality into it" is the exact same reason people like Bella from Twilight, right? I like to think of Samus as a strong woman with flaws, feelings, and struggles. Not as a robotic suit with an "Insert head here" pasted onto it.

2010-12-17 07:41:12 pm

ANKOKU

DAMNIT TBOB!

2010-12-17 07:44:52 pm

Quote from sabata2:

And it's not the fear of Ridley that displays her as weak or helpless. It's the way it was presented.
If throughout the entire game of Other M, we kept getting subtle hints of Samus's fear when fighting Ridley in the Zero Mission, Prime, Corruption, and Super THEN Ridley shows his big ass in all his terrifying glory it'd make a LOT more sense to the casual gamer. It'd be even better if they kept referencing the whole "But he's dead now" and then revealed him to be alive, it'd be an even better reveal.

I'm a mediocre writer, but I could have written a better intro to that scene so that the gamers who didn't know about her PTSD wouldn't be "zomgwtf that's not Samus"

Honestly, that I could agree with. I think it would've been better if they gave Ridley a voice. He could've taunted her on her past just like in the manga. The problem with the story is that it's too vague alot of the time, you really have to have done research to actually understand it. That may be a big flaw with the story but that still doesn't mean people are justified to call it sexist, misogynistic, or any of that crap. You can say you don't like how they portrayed Samus without inserting "It's demeaning to women" onto it. If nothing else, I appreciate you guys not using that.

[quote="sabata2"]
And it's not the fear of Ridley that displays her as weak or helpless. It's [u]the way it was presented[/u].
If throughout the entire game of Other M, we kept getting subtle hints of Samus's fear when fighting Ridley in the Zero Mission, Prime, Corruption, and Super THEN Ridley shows his big ass in all his terrifying glory it'd make a LOT more sense to the casual gamer. It'd be even better if they kept referencing the whole "But he's dead now" and then revealed him to be alive, it'd be an even better reveal.

I'm a mediocre writer, but I could have written a better intro to that scene so that the gamers who didn't know about her PTSD wouldn't be "zomgwtf that's not Samus" [/quote]

Honestly, that I could agree with. I think it would've been better if they gave Ridley a voice. He could've taunted her on her past just like in the manga. The problem with the story is that it's too vague alot of the time, you really have to have done research to actually understand it. That may be a big flaw with the story but that still doesn't mean people are justified to call it sexist, misogynistic, or any of that crap. You can say you don't like how they portrayed Samus without inserting "It's demeaning to women" onto it. If nothing else, I appreciate you guys not using that.

2010-12-17 07:54:16 pm

My friend, though, argues that she thinks the game makes it perfectly clear that Ridley did something traumatizing to her when she was a little girl, since the flashback went into play. The commercial for Other M is a little clear on this, showing Ridley coming after her as a child with the emphasis being on her past. I guess it differs from person to person. Apparently, her Father, who had never played a Metroid game before, knew right away from seeing the little girl flashback that Ridley did something to her to make her act that way.

2010-12-17 07:59:49 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

That may be a big flaw with the story but that still doesn't mean people are justified to call it sexist, misogynistic, or any of that crap. You can say you don't like how they portrayed Samus without inserting "It's demeaning to women" onto it. If nothing else, I appreciate you guys not using that.

There's legitimate grounding for that opinion though. Most nerds just happen to be unaffected by it.

2010-12-17 08:02:51 pm

Quote from tomatobob:

There's legitimate grounding for that opinion though. Most nerds just happen to be unaffected by it.

How is there legitimate grounding? Looking at the game as a whole, calling it sexist is very ignorant and plays into a double standard since many of the men aren't portrayed in the best light ever. Apparently, Lyle's a gun nut and goes overboard with explosives, Anthony's a cocky dumbass who seems to thrive on getting himself into situations that will likely get him killed, Adam's a repressed commander who acts like a cold asshole the instant you meet him, and don't get me started on that Colonel at the end.

TheMG2

2010-12-17 08:20:33 pm

Lyle is terrified of bugs. Thats all. He says after the first boss "Why did it have to be bugs?!?"

2010-12-17 09:16:13 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

Honestly, that I could agree with. I think it would've been better if they gave Ridley a voice. He could've taunted her on her past just like in the manga. The problem with the story is that it's too vague alot of the time, you really have to have done research to actually understand it. That may be a big flaw with the story but that still doesn't mean people are justified to call it sexist, misogynistic, or any of that crap. You can say you don't like how they portrayed Samus without inserting "It's demeaning to women" onto it. If nothing else, I appreciate you guys not using that.

That's the PRECISE problem.
You have to have done your research to understand it. Yes there's people like your friends father and myself who can FIGURE why it's happening, but the way it's presented (her fear) does not match up to what is known.
And it's because of that disjoint between what's recognizable and WHY it is recognized as that, that people call the game shit.
"Hey, that giant lizard must have done something to her in her past to make her act this way."
"Well, what did he do?"
"Fuck if I know, but it must have been pretty bad to turn someone from 'Mother... Time to go!' to 'Oh fuck, oh fuck, oh fuck, Ridley!'"

On the topic of "The game is sexist" etc.
Political correctness is a piece of shit and because of it we get retards who shout "RACIST" when ANYTHING is happening to a black person or "SEXIST" whenever something is happening to a woman.
Morgan Webb, while highly likely being in the camp of "wtf why is she acting like this", definitely over reacted simply because the main character was a woman.

Also, lol @ wasting an entire clip trying to kill one bug.

[quote="MetroidJunkie"]Honestly, that I could agree with. I think it would've been better if they gave Ridley a voice. He could've taunted her on her past just like in the manga. [b][u]The problem with the story is that it's too vague alot of the time, you really have to have done research to actually understand it.[/u][/b] That may be a big flaw with the story but that still doesn't mean people are justified to call it sexist, misogynistic, or any of that crap. You can say you don't like how they portrayed Samus without inserting "It's demeaning to women" onto it. If nothing else, I appreciate you guys not using that.[/quote]

That's the PRECISE problem.
You have to have done your research to understand it. Yes there's people like your friends father and myself who can FIGURE why it's happening, but the way it's presented (her fear) does not match up to what is known.
And it's because of that disjoint between what's recognizable and WHY it is recognized as that, that people call the game shit.
"Hey, that giant lizard must have done something to her in her past to make her act this way."
"Well, what did he do?"
"Fuck if I know, but it must have been pretty bad to turn someone from 'Mother... Time to go!' to 'Oh fuck, oh fuck, oh fuck, Ridley!'"

On the topic of "The game is sexist" etc.
Political correctness is a piece of shit and because of it we get retards who shout "RACIST" when ANYTHING is happening to a black person or "SEXIST" whenever something is happening to a woman.
Morgan Webb, while highly likely being in the camp of "wtf why is she acting like this", definitely over reacted simply because the main character was a woman.

Also, lol @ wasting an entire clip trying to kill one bug.

Baron Dante

2010-12-17 09:28:53 pm

Quote:

Political correctness is a piece of shit and because of it we get retards who shout "RACIST" when ANYTHING is happening to a black person

You said you're mediocre writer? When I see such a rarity of a person who does give us these comments, I can't help but to say they are good enough writer to, well, write better stuff than Other M.

Prime Hunter

2010-12-17 10:02:17 pm

Quote from sabata2:

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Quote from Turtle:

Character flaws do not make a good character.

To be honest, I've always felt that a good character with at least one major flaw are the best characters overall. Makes them seem more real, since nobody is absolutely perfect. Sort of like how I don't really like Superman that much but love Batman, due in part to the way their powers/weaknesses are handled. Yeah, you're right that any character can be good or bad depending on the writing, but if there's a perfect and flawed character working off of the same level of quality, chances are I'll go for the flawed one in the end because they're more believable to me. (Obviously I do like some perfect characters, but I can't think of any specific examples at this moment.)

Just to explicitly state it, a good character CAN have flaws, but flaws to not make a good character. It's not a If and ONLY If relationship.

As to "flawless characters you like"...
Captain mother-fucking Falcon.
Guy saves lives, wins races, and doesn't afraid of anything.

Wasn't trying to say that characters NEED flaws to be great. Cause you're right, they don't necessarily need them to be written well or to be great characters. All I'm saying is that most of my favorite characters tend to be flawed to some extent, although there are certainly exceptions to this. And as MarioGalaxy2433g5 mentioned, I like Luigi better than Mario, for instance, partially because of this.

[quote="sabata2"][quote="Prime Hunter"][quote="Turtle"]Character flaws do not make a good character.[/quote]
To be honest, I've always felt that a good character with at least one major flaw are the best characters overall. Makes them seem more real, since nobody is absolutely perfect. Sort of like how I don't really like Superman that much but love Batman, due in part to the way their powers/weaknesses are handled. Yeah, you're right that any character can be good or bad depending on the writing, but if there's a perfect and flawed character working off of the same level of quality, chances are I'll go for the flawed one in the end because they're more believable to me. (Obviously I do like some perfect characters, but I can't think of any specific examples at this moment.)[/quote]
Just to explicitly state it, a good character CAN have flaws, but flaws to not make a good character. It's not a If and ONLY If relationship.

As to "flawless characters you like"...
Captain mother-fucking Falcon.
Guy saves lives, wins races, and doesn't afraid of anything.[/quote]
Wasn't trying to say that characters NEED flaws to be great. Cause you're right, they don't necessarily need them to be written well or to be great characters. All I'm saying is that most of my favorite characters tend to be flawed to some extent, although there are certainly exceptions to this. And as MarioGalaxy2433g5 mentioned, I like Luigi better than Mario, for instance, partially because of this.

ajbolt89

2010-12-17 10:20:27 pm

lol no way

I just always figured Luigi was smarter than we gave him credit for. Brains over brawn sort of thing. I mean the prof. weirdo who makes fludd gave luigi the ghost vacuum to try out first, and ensure the reliability of his technology. I also imagine him to be sort of sarcastic about the whole situation, mario being the hero and all that.

2010-12-17 10:24:32 pm

ANKOKU

I'm missing something, Luigi has a character flaw compared to Mario?
(And now we've completely left the game universe of this website :P )

And thanks Dante, I'm writing the plotline for a game we're about to release with my company, and I keep getting flooded with "Lol American's can't do this genre of game" from people, so any little bit of encouragement helps.

Opium

2010-12-17 10:26:00 pm

Luigi's supposed to be slightly more difficult to control, perhaps that's what he's referring to.

ajbolt89

2010-12-17 10:28:29 pm

lol no way

Oh I guess I just thought we were referring to how he's portrayed as cowardly and always in need of mario saving him. Or usually.

TheMG2

2010-12-17 11:03:31 pm

Quote from ajbolt89:

Oh I guess I just thought we were referring to how he's portrayed as cowardly and always in need of mario saving him. Or usually.

We have a winner.

2010-12-18 02:42:46 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from sabata2:

Political correctness is a piece of shit and because of it we get retards who shout "RACIST" when ANYTHING is happening to a black person or "SEXIST" whenever something is happening to a woman.

Contrary to popular belief, people being reactionary does not invalidate such claims out of hand. Retards being retarded doesn't mean it's super dumb to feel a bit miffed that a character that was viewed, rightly or not, as kind of THE strong female empowerment figure in video games is turned into the same lame, generic female protagonist that every other game in history has. It's not nearly the worst reason to be upset with the characterization.

Now granted Samus was basically treated as eye candy since the beginning of the series anyway so it could be easily argued that the initial perception was misplaced to being with. Though to be fair, she's really been the longest running non damsel in distress type character.

But the fact that people like Morgan Webb could write articles based on the concept of Other M being sexist and actually draw some kind of back up from the game itself without appearing to grasp at straws and yelling for the sake of being heard is pretty telling. Not so much that she's correct, of course, but it does indicate rather nicely how clumsily the whole game is written that it is apparently difficult to really refute that concept without drawing from outside sources that she could not be reasonably expected to access.

I'm actually glad she wrote that review, it's kinda nice to see that games are getting to a point that people are willing to actually put some thought into the content of the game their playing and what world view might be coming through. Now if the video game industry could just start finding some good writers we could get somewhere.

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

How is there legitimate grounding? Looking at the game as a whole, calling it sexist is very ignorant and plays into a double standard since many of the men aren't portrayed in the best light ever.

Not really, in a male dominated society portraying men as goofy or dumb and such is seen very differently than more stereotypical portrayals of women because women have been historically treated worse than men to varying degrees. Sexism, racism and such are tools that are on'y really usable by the majority or, if not majority, at least the dominant group to keep the "lesser" group down, it doesn't really work in the reverse as the dominant group can't very well be oppressed now can it.

And hell, cockyness, tendency towards overkill, and stone cold assholishness are almost celebrated traits in the western male. You could apply several of those to basically every action hero ever, being a jerk is basically the hallmark of manliness.

[quote="sabata2"]Political correctness is a piece of shit and because of it we get retards who shout "RACIST" when ANYTHING is happening to a black person or "SEXIST" whenever something is happening to a woman.[/quote]
Contrary to popular belief, people being reactionary does not invalidate such claims out of hand. Retards being retarded doesn't mean it's super dumb to feel a bit miffed that a character that was viewed, rightly or not, as kind of THE strong female empowerment figure in video games is turned into the same lame, generic female protagonist that every other game in history has. It's not nearly the worst reason to be upset with the characterization.

Now granted Samus was basically treated as eye candy since the beginning of the series anyway so it could be easily argued that the initial perception was misplaced to being with. Though to be fair, she's really been the longest running non damsel in distress type character.

But the fact that people like Morgan Webb could write articles based on the concept of Other M being sexist and actually draw some kind of back up from the game itself without appearing to grasp at straws and yelling for the sake of being heard is pretty telling. Not so much that she's correct, of course, but it does indicate rather nicely how clumsily the whole game is written that it is apparently difficult to really refute that concept without drawing from outside sources that she could not be reasonably expected to access.

I'm actually glad she wrote that review, it's kinda nice to see that games are getting to a point that people are willing to actually put some thought into the content of the game their playing and what world view might be coming through. Now if the video game industry could just start finding some good writers we could get somewhere.

[quote="MetroidJunkie"]How is there legitimate grounding? Looking at the game as a whole, calling it sexist is very ignorant and plays into a double standard since many of the men aren't portrayed in the best light ever.[/quote]
Not really, in a male dominated society portraying men as goofy or dumb and such is seen very differently than more stereotypical portrayals of women because women have been historically treated worse than men to varying degrees. Sexism, racism and such are tools that are on'y really usable by the majority or, if not majority, at least the dominant group to keep the "lesser" group down, it doesn't really work in the reverse as the dominant group can't very well be oppressed now can it.

And hell, cockyness, tendency towards overkill, and stone cold assholishness are almost celebrated traits in the western male. You could apply several of those to basically every action hero ever, being a jerk is basically the hallmark of manliness.