Has the Prime trilogy been retconned out of existence?

2010-12-16 11:57:29 am

I like turtles.

Then why didn't she go into shock in the beginning of Super?

And... about the PTSD... people neglect to mention that Samus did, in fact, get over it. Like, five seconds after it happened. It's not PTSD. It's not a plausible portrayal of Samus. It's just plain bad writing for the sake of drama.

MetroidJunkie

Edit history:

MetroidJunkie: 2010-12-16 12:43:21 pm

MetroidJunkie: 2010-12-16 12:11:27 pm

2010-12-16 12:07:10 pm

Her emotions weren't explored. Also, 5 seconds?

http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_2_en/ch_0010/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch010_046.png

http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_2_en/ch_0010/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch010_048.png

After 5 seconds, she isn't even CALM. She's brooding about how there's no hope.

http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_2_en/ch_0010/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch010_051.png

http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_2_en/ch_0010/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch010_053.png

http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_2_en/ch_0010/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch010_054.png

The Chozo have to calm her down. In any case, from what I read, it took a year before she was able to get her glory on Ridley. She was only calmed down, PTSD doesn't go away. I have a friend whose Father still suffers from PTSD from Vietnam, are you implying that he should've gotten over it too?

ajbolt89

2010-12-16 01:45:05 pm

lol no way

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

... PTSD doesn't go away. I have a friend whose Father still suffers from PTSD from Vietnam, are you implying that he should've gotten over it too?

Quote from Turtle:

about the PTSD... people neglect to mention that Samus did, in fact, get over it. Like, five seconds after it happened. It's not PTSD. It's not a plausible portrayal of Samus. It's just plain bad writing for the sake of drama.

I mean MJ, I get what you're going for there and honestly I was about to write a post saying something about how it sucks that I have to admit it. What I mean is, I am of the opinion that the manga is the source for Other M's story, which is now canon, and really awkwardly happens also to take place long after the events within the manga. The writers went way out of their way to scour the original source material for context (hence metroid queen, metroid baby, super metroid stuff, pretty much every scene in the manga that's referenced in flashback or the commercial even), and then within that built a pretty traditional story thinking that the context that had made Metroid so successful would carry the shoddy writing.
No I'm just kidding, probably they didn't do it on purpose.
But what I'm saying is the manga is the source, as much as we don't like it. Which is fine and all, because the point really is that within the context of Other M it comes across as poor writing. Even having some mention of it before encountering ridley, some foreshadowing that she had never really gotten over the death of her parents at Ridley's hands and that she finally had felt at peace after killing him in Super Metroid - something to recognize that he's a character, too. All the questions about "she's fought him like six times" would be gone, if they'd gone to any lengths to characterize him.
The reason I quoted the above is because, I remember in high school debate we were taught like first thing to keep an eye out for the appeal to emotions. It's terrible your friend's father has PTSD, and I was going to write a post saying something along the lines of, "I suppose as a valid art medium, addressing PTSD in a videogame should be something we can accept", but then I remembered the whole point is that it's just bad writing. It took her a year at that point in the manga's story to get over it and fight Ridley again; hence, in this instance she was able to gather her senses more quickly. We still don't really see any of that in the game though, so if it IS PTSD then wtf is going on, explain it better please. And if it is PTSD, which doesn't go away and can hit you at any time and uh - you know, you never get over it and stuff, then how come in Other M she was able to get over it so quickly? I mean that doesn't really follow. Does it get less intense over time? But I thought the problem was that it doesn't get less intense.

[quote="MetroidJunkie"]... PTSD doesn't go away. I have a friend whose Father still suffers from PTSD from Vietnam, are you implying that he should've gotten over it too?[/quote] 
[quote="Turtle"]about the PTSD... people neglect to mention that Samus [i]did[/i], in fact, get over it.  Like, five seconds after it happened.  It's not PTSD.  It's not a plausible portrayal of Samus.  It's just plain bad writing for the sake of drama.[/quote]
I mean MJ, I get what you're going for there and honestly I was about to write a post saying something about how it sucks that I have to admit it. What I mean is, I am of the opinion that the manga is the source for Other M's story, which is now canon, and really awkwardly happens also to take place long after the events within the manga. The writers went way out of their way to scour the original source material for context (hence metroid queen, metroid baby, super metroid stuff, pretty much every scene in the manga that's referenced in flashback or the commercial even), and then within that built a pretty traditional story thinking that the context that had made Metroid so successful would carry the shoddy writing. 
No I'm just kidding, probably they didn't do it on purpose. 
But what I'm saying is the manga is the source, as much as we don't like it. Which is fine and all, because the point really is that within the context of Other M it comes across as poor writing. Even having some mention of it before encountering ridley, some foreshadowing that she had never really gotten over the death of her parents at Ridley's hands and that she finally had felt at peace after killing him in Super Metroid - something to recognize that he's a character, too. All the questions about "she's fought him like six times" would be gone, if they'd gone to any lengths to characterize him. 
The reason I quoted the above is because, I remember in high school debate we were taught like first thing to keep an eye out for the appeal to emotions. It's terrible your friend's father has PTSD, and I was going to write a post saying something along the lines of, "I suppose as a valid art medium, addressing PTSD in a videogame should be something we can accept", but then I remembered the whole point is that it's just bad writing. It took her a year at that point in the manga's story to get over it and fight Ridley again; hence, in this instance she was able to gather her senses more quickly. We still don't really see any of that in the game though, so if it IS PTSD then wtf is going on, explain it better please. And if it is PTSD, which doesn't go away and can hit you at any time and uh - you know, you never get over it and stuff, then how come in Other M she was able to get over it so quickly? I mean that doesn't really follow. Does it get less intense over time? But I thought the problem was that it doesn't get less intense.

MetroidJunkie

Edit history:

MetroidJunkie: 2010-12-16 02:01:41 pm

2010-12-16 01:48:18 pm

"Dad admits that PTSD does dampen, but it never goes away, so her PTSD in Other M was a very accurate portrayl. He says over time, there is part of you, in the back of your mind, that is still you, even as the memories and fear take over." A quote from her. PTSD can soften but it can't truly be gotten rid of. My theory is that Anthony supposedly dying snapped her out of it and she went into battle mode. After that, it sort of just crumbled. There are other people who would agree the game is a very good portrayal of lingering PTSD:

http://gamrfeed.vgchartz.com/story/81909/ptsd-or-weakness-real-experts-on-why-samus-didnt-shoot/

If you ask me, her getting over it so quickly is just a testimony to how strong she'd become. While the PTSD is still a factor, she's able to control it much more than, in the manga, when she was confronting him for the first time.

Turtle

2010-12-16 02:16:25 pm

I like turtles.

The "five seconds" referred to Other M, not the manga. And I didn't literally mean five seconds. I meant "a relatively short amount of time." But the real point I'm trying to make is that if one doesn't just "get over it," then why did she? Would Anthony's "death" not have just deepened her despair, rather than "snapping her out of it"?

And if it is PTSD, then that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms. In real life, PTSD might work that way. But in fiction, it's generally bad form to have a character suffer from something they've already overcome. Well, as far as strong characters go, anyway. The real issue becomes not about the scene's being realistic, but rather about whether realism in the context of fiction is a good thing.

MetroidJunkie

Edit history:

MetroidJunkie: 2010-12-16 02:28:06 pm

2010-12-16 02:23:49 pm

Quote from Turtle:

The "five seconds" referred to Other M, not the manga. And I didn't literally mean five seconds. I meant "a relatively short amount of time." But the real point I'm trying to make is that if one doesn't just "get over it," then why did she? Would Anthony's "death" not have just deepened her despair, rather than "snapping her out of it"?

And if it is PTSD, then that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms. In real life, PTSD might work that way. But in fiction, it's generally bad form to have a character suffer from something they've already overcome. Well, as far as strong characters go, anyway. The real issue becomes not about the scene's being realistic, but rather about whether realism in the context of fiction is a good thing.

If that's the case, then all you can do is just have an opinion on the matter. Arguments against someone's viewpoint on the matter is futile and will just lead to flame wars. Clearly, Sakamoto thought it was a good idea, whoever wrote that manga thought it would be a good idea, the likes of Nintendo never tried to stop the game's release so they must not have had objection to it and, as I've made clear, I have nothing wrong with it. If you do, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion.

Oh and, as for the scene, it would've sparked Samus' anger to give her a reason to want to hurt Ridley. Afterwards, she admitted to having a sickening feeling.

[quote="Turtle"]The "five seconds" referred to [i]Other M[/i], not the manga.  And I didn't literally mean five seconds.  I meant "a relatively short amount of time."  But the real point I'm trying to make is that if one doesn't just "get over it," then why did she?  Would Anthony's "death" not have just deepened her despair, rather than "snapping her out of it"?

And if it is PTSD, then that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms.  In real life, PTSD might work that way.  But in fiction, it's generally bad form to have a character suffer from something they've already overcome.  Well, as far as strong characters go, anyway.  The real issue becomes not about the scene's being realistic, but rather about whether realism in the context of fiction is a good thing.[/quote]

If that's the case, then all you can do is just have an opinion on the matter. Arguments against someone's viewpoint on the matter is futile and will just lead to flame wars. Clearly, Sakamoto thought it was a good idea, whoever wrote that manga thought it would be a good idea, the likes of Nintendo never tried to stop the game's release so they must not have had objection to it and, as I've made clear, I have nothing wrong with it. If you do, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion.

Oh and, as for the scene, it would've sparked Samus' anger to give her a reason to want to hurt Ridley. Afterwards, she admitted to having a sickening feeling.

Turtle

2010-12-16 02:31:18 pm

I like turtles.

So we couldn't have just skipped to the "anger" part? That way, everyone wins. We have Samus showing emotion and not being weak.

MetroidJunkie

2010-12-16 02:32:59 pm

Quote from Turtle:

So we couldn't have just skipped to the "anger" part? That way, everyone wins. We have Samus showing emotion and not being weak.

Yeah, let's have Samus just get angry at everything. That's what a normal human being does. Look, I'll say it again, some people LIKE IT that Samus is portrayed as having emotional weaknesses instead of being a badass Mary Sue all of the time. You're entitled to your opinion but you're not entitled to crush others' opinions.

Baron Dante

2010-12-16 03:19:25 pm

We would be so much better if Samus was portrayed as the person she is in Planet Zebeth comic, which unfortunately isn't canon. She shows emotiones there too, just not in a bad way, it's portrayed much better. Fuck Sakamoto and his ideal Samus, I want my own one. If I get to imagine what she thinks and does, if I want, she can be as weak and emotional as MOM, other just a neat killing machine- .-

tomatobob

2010-12-16 04:34:26 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

There's a very big difference between emotional weakness and crippling terror that would make it impossible to do half the things required in her job. Other M jumps right over to the latter and rolls around in it, this is the problem.

A good writer could have done something with it but Sakamoto is nowhere near the realm of good.

TheMG2

2010-12-16 04:42:51 pm

...Emotions are like time bombs. Every so often they have to explode. I'm normally chill, but sometimes I just explode with anger... Strength isn't the lack of weakness, but overcoming the weakness.

Behemoth

2010-12-16 04:46:23 pm

Quote:

I'm normally chill, but sometimes I just explode with anger

me too !

Quote:

Strength isn't the lack of weakness, but overcoming the weakness

That's very true.

sabata2

Edit history:

sabata2: 2010-12-16 05:07:28 pm

2010-12-16 05:06:42 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

Yeah, let's have Samus just get angry at everything. That's what a normal human being does. Look, I'll say it again, some people LIKE IT that Samus is portrayed as having emotional weaknesses instead of being a badass Mary Sue all of the time. You're entitled to your opinion but you're not entitled to crush others' opinions.

The emotional impact in the MANGA makes sense. Everything is FRESH to her relatively.
Shock at seeing one of her parental figures teaming up with the one who killed her parents, feeling despair at being "thrown under the bus" and betrayed, and revulsion to the point of rage.
She then turns that rage on those who have put her through that trauma and gets her revenge.

In Other M, it's as if she hasn't "grown up" or progressed AT ALL.
At minimum FIVE major missions occured between then and M:OM, most of which recalling her to fight with Ridley once more.
You can't try to explain it away with "She thought he was REALLY dead after Super" because PTSD DOESN'T occur ONLY when you think the threat has disappeared!
The knowledge that "Ridley is still alive" in Prime, Corruption, and Super does NOT override the traumatic situation of "This guy killed my parents, annihilated my adoptive parents, and leads the intergalactic band of villains."
To assume so would mean that simply thinking "My job is never over" will STOP PTSD from EVER occuring.

So we come to the result that EITHER:
Samus had that truamatic pause in Prime, Corruption, AND Super, it just wasn't shown.
OR
Samus does not have PTSD, but selective reaction times to traumatic events (as we only ever see her act on it in the Manga [not even in ZM] and M:OM)

THERE is your well written reason why people dislike how she was portrayed in the Ridley scene.
It is either something we NEVER have seen before (sans manga) and was introduced POORLY, or it makes absolutely no sense in relation to the other times we've seen her.

[quote="MetroidJunkie"]Yeah, let's have Samus just get angry at everything. That's what a normal human being does. Look, I'll say it again, some people LIKE IT that Samus is portrayed as having emotional weaknesses instead of being a badass Mary Sue all of the time. You're entitled to your opinion but you're not entitled to crush others' opinions.[/quote]
The emotional impact in the MANGA makes sense. Everything is FRESH to her relatively.
Shock at seeing one of her parental figures teaming up with the one who killed her parents, feeling despair at being "thrown under the bus" and betrayed, and revulsion to the point of rage.
She then turns that rage on those who have put her through that trauma and gets her revenge.

In Other M, it's as if she hasn't "grown up" or progressed AT ALL.
At minimum FIVE major missions occured between then and M:OM, most of which recalling her to fight with Ridley once more.
You can't try to explain it away with "She thought he was REALLY dead after Super" because PTSD DOESN'T occur ONLY when you think the threat has disappeared!
The knowledge that "Ridley is still alive" in Prime, Corruption, and Super does NOT override the traumatic situation of "This guy killed my parents, annihilated my adoptive parents, and leads the intergalactic band of villains."
To assume so would mean that simply thinking "My job is never over" will STOP PTSD from EVER occuring.

So we come to the result that EITHER:
Samus had that truamatic pause in Prime, Corruption, AND Super, it just wasn't shown.
OR
Samus does not have PTSD, but selective reaction times to traumatic events (as we only ever see her act on it in the Manga [not even in ZM] and M:OM)

THERE is your well written reason why people dislike how she was portrayed in the Ridley scene.
It is either something we NEVER have seen before (sans manga) and was introduced POORLY, or it makes absolutely no sense in relation to the other times we've seen her.

UchihaSasuke

2010-12-16 05:16:28 pm

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

looking at the facts, making Other M the sequel to ZM instead of super would make a lot of shit make more sense regarding her emotions.

sabata2

2010-12-16 05:20:58 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from UchihaSasuke:

looking at the facts, making Other M the sequel to ZM instead of super would make a lot of shit make more sense regarding her emotions.

Actually, it really really does.
If we ignore the Mother Brain scene from the intro and give a different reason for the Ridley clone, we could EASILY place this right after Zero Mission.
Seeing as we never actually fight metroids it could be placed damn near anywhere (similar to Hunters).
And IIRC Fusion never tells us WHEN Adam died in relation to Fusion's timeline or any other game's.
That would have worked WORLDS better.

(It still doesn't handle the whole "wtf? I've never seen her act this way before." But it makes it FAR easier to point to the manga for an explanation.)

ajbolt89

2010-12-16 05:26:46 pm

lol no way

Yeah, I agree Sabata, it's like if you want to see PTSD in there and respect them for taking risks, that's a whole different question than whether you think they succeeded in the endeavor.
I think it's a matter of how invested people were in the character from their experiences with her. Like if you play the games all the time and speedrun and try to break the physics of the world, you come to identify Samus with that aspect of yourself that breaks barriers and faces challenges head on with confidence, and that's really it. But if you don't really play the games that much and spend more of your time looking at the manga and wondering about characters, you'll be a lot more open to any aspect of yourself being realized through Samus because you don't always experience just badassery, but instead have an equal influence from say the manga. So if you play the games, you might be mad at the way other M shunned the self-expression you were allowed. Whereas if you just like the idea of playing the games, you wouldn't be mad because you wouldn't have experienced that self-expression the character allowed.
Like I don't really respect using PTSD within the story because I don't understand it, I don't have experience with it in my own life. MJ thinks it's a realistic choice because to him that's a part of life, and something that should be recognized.

Yeah, I agree Sabata, it's like if you want to see PTSD in there and respect them for taking risks, that's a whole different question than whether you think they succeeded in the endeavor. 
I think it's a matter of how invested people were in the character from their experiences with her. Like if you play the games all the time and speedrun and try to break the physics of the world, you come to identify Samus with that aspect of yourself that breaks barriers and faces challenges head on with confidence, and that's really it. But if you don't really play the games that much and spend more of your time looking at the manga and wondering about characters, you'll be a lot more open to any aspect of yourself being realized through Samus because you don't always experience just badassery, but instead have an equal influence from say the manga. So if you play the games, you might be mad at the way other M shunned the self-expression you were allowed. Whereas if you just like the idea of playing the games, you wouldn't be mad because you wouldn't have experienced that self-expression the character allowed. 
Like I don't really respect using PTSD within the story because I don't understand it, I don't have experience with it in my own life. MJ thinks it's a realistic choice because to him that's a part of life, and something that should be recognized.

Baron Dante

2010-12-16 05:42:32 pm

@Sabata: Only problem is that there's Metroid Queen, which could be seen as Samus already knowing how to kill one off. That would force it to be after Metroid 2, and since the Mother Brain + Baby x9 intro would make sense there, it has to be after Super, the only other game with MB.

That said, I feel the game kinda contradicts Fusion by having Nightmare here. In Fusion, Samus doesn't seem to know what the fuck is that thing, so yeah.

TheGreenManalishi

2010-12-16 05:52:00 pm

Quote from UchihaSasuke:

looking at the facts, making Other M the sequel to ZM instead of super would make a lot of shit make more sense regarding her emotions.

It make more sense, but it still wouldn't be any good

sabata2

2010-12-16 06:16:42 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from Baron Dante:

@Sabata: Only problem is that there's Metroid Queen, which could be seen as Samus already knowing how to kill one off. That would force it to be after Metroid 2, and since the Mother Brain + Baby x9 intro would make sense there, it has to be after Super, the only other game with MB.

That said, I feel the game kinda contradicts Fusion by having Nightmare here. In Fusion, Samus doesn't seem to know what the fuck is that thing, so yeah.

Yeah the MQ does pose a bit of a problem with the required "PB HER STOMACH". But you could also chalk it up to "I've used everything in my arsenal and it still won't die... I'll have to use Power Bombs."
Which could lead just as easily into bombing her in RoS.

Simply put, while the "Bomb her stomach" poses a bit of a continuity problem, I don't think it's a timeline breaking one. Our redone M:OM could easily feed into RoS just as RoS fed into the actual M:OM.

We don't have any indication that Samus doesn't know what Nightmare is in Fusion. We only really have Adam telling her "Something is manipulating gravity in this sector. Kill it." We don't have any inner monologue (thank god) of Samus wondering what monster it could be.

[quote="Baron Dante"]@Sabata: Only problem is that there's Metroid Queen, which could be seen as Samus already knowing how to kill one off. That would force it to be after Metroid 2, and since the Mother Brain + Baby x9 intro would make sense there, it has to be after Super, the only other game with MB.

That said, I feel the game kinda contradicts Fusion by having Nightmare here. In Fusion, Samus doesn't seem to know what the fuck is that thing, so yeah.[/quote]

Yeah the MQ does pose a bit of a problem with the required "PB HER STOMACH". But you could also chalk it up to "I've used everything in my arsenal and it still won't die... I'll have to use Power Bombs."
Which could lead just as easily into bombing her in RoS.

Simply put, while the "Bomb her stomach" poses a bit of a continuity problem, I don't think it's a timeline breaking one. Our redone M:OM could easily feed into RoS just as RoS fed into the actual M:OM.

We don't have any indication that Samus doesn't know what Nightmare is in Fusion. We only really have Adam telling her "Something is manipulating gravity in this sector. Kill it." We don't have any inner monologue (thank god) of Samus wondering what monster it could be.

Baron Dante

2010-12-16 06:24:01 pm

Meh, fair enough.

On the Nightmare thingy... Adam was alive by the time Samus battled Nightmare for the first time, so wouldn't it be logical that Adam knew Samus knew what Nightmare was, and informed her about how she fought one back there?

sabata2

2010-12-16 06:50:03 pm

ANKOKU

Mmm... I don't think CAdam knew what was manipulating gravity. I can't say for certain because it's been a while since I've played, but I don't think knowledge bases were uploaded along with their personality.

That along with the fact that even if they were, Adam would have had to upload his mind DURING M:OM for CAdam to know about what Samus fought on the Bottle Ship. (CAdam could easily have been told "Adam: KIA during joint mission on the Bottle Ship)

Baron Dante

2010-12-16 06:56:37 pm

CAdam mentioned it was Nightmare later on.

Considering he knew Samus in the end, I assume they uploaded the knowledge bases aswell. Makes one wonder how big gap is there between updating the systems, to prevent lost information in case of death... Daily? Weekly? After the mission?

sabata2

Edit history:

sabata2: 2010-12-16 07:00:23 pm

2010-12-16 06:59:43 pm

ANKOKU

I'll have to replay Fusion now. Wow, I'm actually saying that not because I like playing it but because of the STORY.

But I didn't bring it with back home so I'd have to emulate it to play again. I might do that later. (of course I own the real one)

Also, it's done via brain implant. It's whenever any synapse fires.
Big Brother was watching Adam...

Turtle

2010-12-16 07:14:25 pm

I like turtles.

About the Nightmare thing, it was never really said in Fusion that Samus did or didn't know what it was. And I don't think it was ever referred to as such by name in Other M.

Quote from tomatobob:

There's a very big difference between emotional weakness and crippling terror that would make it impossible to do half the things required in her job. Other M jumps right over to the latter and rolls around in it, this is the problem.

A good writer could have done something with it but Sakamoto is nowhere near the realm of good.

Will you marry me?

No homo.

Baron Dante

2010-12-16 07:22:03 pm

Quote:

SC: It's gotten worse. The damage seems to have been caused by a creature kept here by the researchers, who named it... the Nightmare. Apparently, it was a bio-mechanical organism designed for military applications... It possesses uncommon power and can manipulate gravity. We must assume that it's become an X-host. We have no choice. You must find it and defeat it. I can't confirm the location.

That's what the "Ship Computer" (=Adam herpderp) says.