Super Metroid - 0:31 SS by Hotarubi!

2009-05-12 06:37:12 am

I'm certainly no expert in analyzing runs for validity, but I do have my opinions about possibility. Simply, if each move featured in the run is possible, then the run is possible.

One thing that can make you skeptical is: How the hell did this person pull off ALL of these moves in one SS without fucking up? Probability needs to be factored in, and one needs to consider that the run being presented is just ONE run and the player makes no claim to have the ability to repeat it on demand. Don't forget that there may have been 1000 attempts made before they finally got that awesome finish time. If one is skilled enough and patient enough then it seems like eventually it should happen. I admit I am too lacking in both skill and patience to even attempt to match these runs, so these opinions are merely based on my logic after reading the recent posts.

Sneaky Paradox

2009-05-12 08:24:52 am

Sorry for not watching your original run you sent me, Smokey.

To me, I think that if Hotarubi somehow manages 00:30, I would believe he cheated. That is too consistent for me to accept in a SS run.

Smokey

2009-05-12 10:18:25 am

Yeah, I agree Nate that it's amazing what a human body is capable of. If I see a speedrun of any other game no matter what the time is, even if I don't know it was cheated; I might believe it just because of that thought. Why? Because I don't know [insert game] that much or probably never played it, and secondly because I know how good someone can get with enough practice to produce something of that quality.

But when you're in your field (speedrunning [insert game here]), long enough, and you're good at it, it just becomes easier to deduct the degree of what could be possibly done. It just didn't make a bit of sense to me that a 0:32 was done, not after all I underwent to get a 0:36. Ever since the run was accepted on SDA, I just HAD to be sure of what I was thinking, and the only way was to first see his run, test my route and then his. For almost 3 years of testing, on and off, I feel confident to say that I'm skeptical of his runs (even more of his 0:31), but anyway, that's just me. BTW, that doesn't mean I'm saying that he's a bad player, because the skill is amazingly there.

I understand that my runs were at some point questioned for their validity. But the way I see runs to get validity amongst other people is to also have people who *can also* produce something of equal quality. There's never a one man army in this. People with enough knowledge, skill and dedication can produce something equal or closer to admit that the better is highly probable.

Saturn: Nice job, amazing run. I noted that you didn't use arm-pumps that much, why was that? I'll try to take your route strat to see if I can get 0:30. After seeing all the little things you did (skipping the 3rd sm, the ship recharge, Draygon's shinespark) I think it's possible to get it. Not just that, but you took your time to play a few rooms normally and in others you just rushed right away :).

Quote:

"As for why he always does SS -- remember that many people consider segmented runs to be "impure"..."

I agree. But that doesn't mean that they'll prevail that easily in terms of efficiency over segmented. Not in real-time.

Yeah, I agree Nate that it's amazing what a human body is capable of. If I see a speedrun of any other game no matter what the time is, even if I don't know it was cheated; I might believe it just because of that thought. Why? Because I don't know [insert game] that much or probably never played it, and secondly because I know how good someone can get with enough practice to produce something of that quality.

But when you're in your field (speedrunning [insert game here]), long enough, and you're good at it, it just becomes easier to deduct the degree of what could be possibly done. It just didn't make a bit of sense to me that a 0:32 was done, not after all I underwent to get a 0:36. Ever since the run was accepted on SDA, I just HAD to be sure of what I was thinking, and the only way was to first see his run, test my route and then his. For almost 3 years of testing, on and off, I feel confident to say that I'm skeptical of his runs (even more of his 0:31), but anyway, that's just me. BTW, that doesn't mean I'm saying that he's a bad player, because the skill is amazingly there.

I understand that my runs were at some point questioned for their validity. But the way I see runs to get validity amongst other people is to also have people who *can also* produce something of equal quality. There's never a one man army in this. People with enough knowledge, skill and dedication can produce something equal or closer to admit that the better is highly probable.

Saturn: Nice job, amazing run. I noted that you didn't use arm-pumps that much, why was that? I'll try to take your route strat to see if I can get 0:30. After seeing all the little things you did (skipping the 3rd sm, the ship recharge, Draygon's shinespark) I think it's possible to get it. Not just that, but you took your time to play a few rooms normally and in others you just rushed right away :).

[quote]"As for why he always does SS -- remember that many people consider segmented runs to be "impure"..."[/quote]

I agree. But that doesn't mean that they'll prevail that easily in terms of efficiency over segmented. Not in real-time.

072

Edit history:

072: 2009-05-12 12:11:35 pm

2009-05-12 12:04:01 pm

coral to complement blue

In his comments for the :32 run, he acknowledged that *with* segments he could have done better.

Anyway, I personally see no reason at all to doubt him. Nothing he has done is impossible, every one of his runs has human-looking mistakes (any% Wrecked Ship, anyone?), and some things just don't add up if he was to be using savestates. Like the fact that it took two years for him to improve his :32 to :31.

EDIT: Oh, and on the subject of route changes, remember there's delaying ice beam until after Maridia and going to Ridley through there, the LN wrap-around shinespark, and possibly skipping the baby metroid (Never got around to testing this myself unassisted, but if you're using savestates, you shouldn't have a problem getting out faster this way).

juicemousezero

2009-05-12 12:32:18 pm

Well, he has done a couple segmented runs... his RBO in segmented, and he's uploaded test runs and parts of test runs (14% and his 100%) on his You Tube page, so it cant be said that he never does segmented runs. And interestingly, his 14% segmented test run and his single segment 14% run have the same ending time. Just thought I'd point that out since it hadn't been mentioned.

Saturn

2009-05-12 01:38:45 pm

Quote from Smokey:

Saturn: Nice job, amazing run. I noted that you didn't use arm-pumps that much, why was that? I'll try to take your route strat to see if I can get 0:30. After seeing all the little things you did (skipping the 3rd sm, the ship recharge, Draygon's shinespark) I think it's possible to get it. Not just that, but you took your time to play a few rooms normally and in others you just rushed right away :).

Thanks. The reason I didn't arm-pump as often as possible is because it often makes it harder to me to concentrate and prepare for the more important techs in the individual rooms. Combined with the fact that the losses of the few skipped arm-pumps were only minimal (a few frames at most), I didn't bother to optimize them to the best of my ability.

And yeah, a few rooms, especially the later ones after Ridley, were done without any repeats or saves inbetween at all, as I just wanted to finish the run as quickly as possible to finally see the completion time.

In any case, good luck on the 0:30 run. :-)

[quote="Smokey"]
Saturn: Nice job, amazing run. I noted that you didn't use arm-pumps that much, why was that? I'll try to take your route strat to see if I can get 0:30. After seeing all the little things you did (skipping the 3rd sm, the ship recharge, Draygon's shinespark) I think it's possible to get it. Not just that, but you took your time to play a few rooms normally and in others you just rushed right away :).
[/quote]
Thanks. The reason I didn't arm-pump as often as possible is because it often makes it harder to me to concentrate and prepare for the more important techs in the individual rooms. Combined with the fact that the losses of the few skipped arm-pumps were only minimal (a few frames at most), I didn't bother to optimize them to the best of my ability.

And yeah, a few rooms, especially the later ones after Ridley, were done without any repeats or saves inbetween at all, as I just wanted to finish the run as quickly as possible to finally see the completion time.

In any case, good luck on the 0:30 run. :-)

Tyjet66

2009-05-12 03:36:25 pm

What'd you say?

It's great to see this game getting even more speed running attention, but do you guys really think 30% if possible? How far off is the current record?

Cpadolf

2009-05-12 04:13:02 pm

Almost happy

We can't tell without being able to watch the memory addresses in the game, which isn't possible without being able to watch it on an emulator, which isn't possible because as far as I know it wasn't recorded on one, and even if it was we would need the movie file which we'd never get because giving us that would basically remove all validity of the run (if I'm not missing something).

Anyway, I'm fairly certain it's a pretty high 00:31, considering that there are some noticeable mistakes in the run and how hard it is to reach that time even with savestates.

JaggerG

2009-05-13 01:36:52 am

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

Smokey: In reference to your comment about him not arm-pumping as he charges, there could be a psychological reason, and on an emulator, even keyboards can be set up to accept so many keys at the same time if you set it up just oddly enough. Does he only hit L or only hit R? If he only hits L, that could easily be because he's focused so much on keeping his right hand holding run and shoot, and it just doesn't feel right to try to hit R, too. It makes it harder to hit R to armpump, so it's likely not as fast as only L pumping. If it's R, then I have no idea.

I kind of feel bad that my fastest 100% Fusion segmented run is 1:19, even though the record single segment run is 1:13 and has at least a minute-long mistake. Not to mention all the random mistakes that cost seconds. Sure it's much greater than average, but damn, I'm just so far from the pros. I feel like I'm in some sort of void in the middle, because average players don't care because it's just a game, and pros don't care because it's not even close to a record. :^(

Smokey: In reference to your comment about him not arm-pumping as he charges, there could be a psychological reason, and on an emulator, even keyboards can be set up to accept so many keys at the same time if you set it up just oddly enough. Does he only hit L or only hit R? If he only hits L, that could easily be because he's focused so much on keeping his right hand holding run and shoot, and it just doesn't feel right to try to hit R, too. It makes it harder to hit R to armpump, so it's likely not as fast as only L pumping. If it's R, then I have no idea.

I kind of feel bad that my fastest 100% Fusion segmented run is 1:19, even though the record single segment run is 1:13 and has at least a minute-long mistake. Not to mention all the random mistakes that cost seconds. Sure it's much greater than average, but damn, I'm just so far from the pros. I feel like I'm in some sort of void in the middle, because average players don't care because it's just a game, and pros don't care because it's not even close to a record. :^(

Tyjet66

2009-05-13 11:54:25 am

What'd you say?

Quote from JaggerG:

I kind of feel bad that my fastest 100% Fusion segmented run is 1:19, even though the record single segment run is 1:13 and has at least a minute-long mistake. Not to mention all the random mistakes that cost seconds. Sure it's much greater than average, but damn, I'm just so far from the pros. I feel like I'm in some sort of void in the middle, because average players don't care because it's just a game, and pros don't care because it's not even close to a record. :^(

Don't feel to bad, I consider myself an average player but I still love watching speed runs; also, just so you feel better, my best time for fusion is about an hour, and that was with only like 40%.

Guardian Garr

2009-05-13 02:36:55 pm

Quote from Cpadolf:

What the hell do I have to do about this? I made no comment here and I do believe hotarubi's run is legit and possible to recreate.

I get surprised when people say they can do things I think of as impossible, and in those cases I demand good proof in order to believe it. And so far I think my suspicions has been fair, seeing as nothing I have claimed impossible has yet been proven possible to my knowledge.

EDIT: In unassisted play at least...

Meh...

Not interested in arguing.

Cpadolf

2009-05-13 03:05:17 pm

Almost happy

I just wonder how I had anything to do with this thread and why you brought me up. I'm not interested in arguing either, it can't bring forth anything useful anyway.

hero of the day

2009-05-13 07:57:45 pm

cp,
I can only assume he thought you were someone else. I was kinda surprised when he mentioned your name, when you clearly have not posted in this thread.

Back on topic:
If the run was done with an emulator, which one would it have been done with? Snes9x has flickering issues, which make it easy to spot emu runs. ZSNES did not have rerecording features at the time of the first run being published (I think). I am sure if someone really wanted to test it out, they could do some tests on the door timing. The timing on the door transitions is usually different between console and emulator.

Smokey

Edit history:

Smokey: 2009-05-23 03:14:31 pm

2009-05-14 11:14:18 am

Well, my main concern isn't about "human-looking mistakes". I can make another TAS speedrun like those two with many human-looking mistakes, given the fact that the only TAS part of those runs was to use savestates in door transitions.

JaggerG: I'm not quite sure if it's a psychological reason. After I saw that picture of how he handles the snes controller, and the fact that he has an awesome skill level, it shouldn't have been a problem for him to press both L and R on a snes controller instead of one. If you play decently good on a keyboard, you'll notice right away that charging the beam while dashing just leaves one finger to press one of the shoulder buttons (doesn't matter if it's L or R), unless you set it up oddly enough to give you freedom in doing so like you said. <But, that isn't the case here, he just presses one; he does it exactly like the way I do it on the keyboard.

Also I recall reading somewhere someone saying he sent his run in a dvd disk. Is it easier to spot a fake run from a dvd format or from a vhs'?

Anyway, I'll try to get that :30 for the sake of it and just give it a good rest. Thanks for the replies, everyone.

Well, my main concern isn't about "human-looking mistakes". I can make another TAS speedrun like those two with many human-looking mistakes, given the fact that the only TAS part of those runs was to use savestates in door transitions.

JaggerG: I'm not quite sure if it's a psychological reason. After I saw that picture of how he handles the snes controller, and the fact that he has an awesome skill level, it shouldn't have been a problem for him to press both L and R on a snes controller instead of one. If you play decently good on a keyboard, you'll notice right away that charging the beam while dashing just leaves one finger to press one of the shoulder buttons (doesn't matter if it's L or R), unless you set it up oddly enough to give you freedom in doing so like you said. <But, that isn't the case here, he just presses one; he does it exactly like the way I do it on the keyboard.

Also I recall reading somewhere someone saying he sent his run in a dvd disk. Is it easier to spot a fake run from a dvd format or from a vhs'?

Anyway, I'll try to get that :30 for the sake of it and just give it a good rest. Thanks for the replies, everyone.

Cpadolf

Edit history:

Cpadolf: 2009-05-14 02:05:06 pm

2009-05-14 12:07:45 pm

Almost happy

Quote from hero of the day:

If the run was done with an emulator, which one would it have been done with? Snes9x has flickering issues, which make it easy to spot emu runs. ZSNES did not have rerecording features at the time of the first run being published (I think).

I think these are some really good points.

Quote from hero of the day:

I can only assume he thought you were someone else. I was kinda surprised when he mentioned your name, when you clearly have not posted in this thread.

Yeah, and if that's the case he can say so, and if it is something else he can say that as well. I just wanted to know why, mistake or not.

Quote from Smokey:

I can make another TAS speedrun

TAS = Tool Assisted Speedrun, so TAS speedrun is a little weird to say Wink

Guardian Garr

2009-05-15 04:59:43 pm

You were actually the first person to respond to this CP.

Cpadolf

2009-05-15 05:05:43 pm

Almost happy

To what? Sorry for really not getting this at all.

spidey-widey

2009-05-15 07:02:07 pm

I think he's referring to your first post on page 1 (almost a year ago now and hardly related to the current discussion).

Guardian Garr

2009-05-16 03:36:41 am

Quote from spidey-widey:

I think he's referring to your first post on page 1 (almost a year ago now and hardly related to the current discussion).

Oh geeze. I didn't even look at the post date. I just assumed that this topic was hot while I was gone. It was like a week after I last checked that I seen this topic. So, I guess I confused everything.

namespoofer

2009-05-16 11:53:01 am

Trained by Cpadolf. Mission: To Perfect.

Quote from Guardian Garr:

Oh geeze. I didn't even look at the post date. I just assumed that this topic was hot while I was gone. It was like a week after I last checked that I seen this topic. So, I guess I confused everything.

Oh.. OHHH.. OOHHH FAILLL!

Fuck everybody that can get below a :42 w/o savestates. Fucking Hackers.

Cpadolf

2009-05-16 12:22:11 pm

Almost happy

I didn't even express disbelief at the run, I was only surprised that he did it at all, since he stated himself after the 00:32 run that he though 00:31 was unlikely and that he probably would not do it... Oh well, nothing to get hung up on.

Kriole

2009-05-17 09:15:36 am

Meri Kurisumasu! ^_^

Quote from namespoofer:

Fuck everybody that can get below a :42 w/o savestates. Fucking Hackers.

Real men can get below 0:42 without savestates... It says so in the bible.

Reeve

2009-05-19 08:47:43 pm

Does anybody know what is exactly Hotarubi's in-game time?
I mean his time is "00:31:??"?

Derakon

2009-05-20 02:34:52 am

Getting a more precise time would require either looking at the program's RAM (a practical impossibility except on emulators, which of course aren't allowed for SDA runs), or subtracting off the "cutscene time" for door transitions, item acquisitions, the voiceover at the start, and so on from the encoded run. And those last two can vary slightly depending on when the player cancels the dialogue.

JaggerG

2009-05-20 12:11:10 pm

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

Namespoofer: Don't spam.