hotarubi's 0:32 single-segment!

2006-10-30 08:20:57 pm

also keep in mind that he's also a taser so he knows how to practice in a more modern, some would say more effective way (i.e. with save states).

spidey-widey

2006-10-30 08:55:08 pm

I think I agree with you guys now. And I have to say, wow. A speedrun that looks good enough to be a TAS, almost. The current record in a game isn't normally beaten by a whole 4 minutes, when it's the difference from 36 to 32. I'll be really really amazed if anyone beats this time...

I'm also wondering what kind of controllers the speedrunners of this game use. With the one I use, it would be difficult to do a few of the tricks in that vid, and in others. Is there a "best" SNES controller to use when speedrunning this game?

BlueGlass

2006-10-30 09:10:12 pm

[quote="spidey-widey"]I'm also wondering what kind of controllers the speedrunners of this game use. With the one I use, it would be difficult to do a few of the tricks in that vid, and in others. Is there a "best" SNES controller to use when speedrunning this game?[/quote

I just use a typical SNES controller. There's other kinds?

spidey-widey

2006-10-30 09:20:28 pm

I have just the typical one (I can't really wall jump with it) and a turbo one (which I can wall jump with, but sometimes when I press one direction, it makes me go in another).

Azor

2006-10-30 09:37:56 pm

Phazon level: 83%

it is possibe to achieve such perfection in 2 months

when i started running my best time saving was 38, but with time i got better

after 3 weeks i managed to cut 2 minutes single segmenting rather than saving(taking a 39 standard time) and yet i only runned the game once per day, vacations were busy and with many interruptions i had no time to freely run

DominicanZero

2006-10-31 01:32:47 am

直死の魔眼使い

spidey-widey: I found myself playing all games much better with some little pirate controller I bought somewhere, with the connector of the SNES controller but the shape of the original PS1 controller. Fits my hands better and both shoulder triggers in the same side act as one button. I'll post a pic later if I can.

Raccoon Sam

2006-10-31 02:40:21 am

For a minute, I thought this was a TAS.
Then I noticed the very embrassing mistake after wall jumping the shaft up.

Then I stopped watching.
It's just me and my tendance to prefer TASes over regular runs.

Smokey

2006-11-03 10:34:22 am

:32 seems too hardcore to me. If he made those little mistakes (like missing ledges, etc) and got the rest of the tricks flawlessly I would've believed a 0:34 run... but not 0:32.

too bad I can't see this run to comment on it.

can someone post the route he used with all the datails (also which tricks he used, and in which parts did he fail, etc)? And why did he save the animals? I see that more like a TAS show-off like "look I can rescue the animals and still get a good time". A true speedrunner would save time even at the slightest thing, but anyways

moozooh

2006-11-03 11:15:28 am

Tricks:
- landing earlier -- 1-5 frames saved per jump;
- stop-on-a-dime -- ~5-30 frames per elevator (also, protects from the accidental crouching on the downward elevator);
- arm-pumping -- saves ~1 frame with each pump (Hotarubi does it on several straight running areas, when there's nothing else to do; the frequency and speed are too low and inconsistent for a turbocontroller -- it has been confirmed).
- damage boost -- Hotarubi used it a lot, though he messed up a few knockbacks;
- morphing through platforms -- two spiked platforms in Lower Norfair and two kago hives near the Crateria-Brinstar elevator (messed up on one of them);
- morphball bounce -- used when leaving Kraid's room;
- force-falling through crumble blocks -- used a lot of times, but not always successfully;
- short/shortest speedboost charge -- again, used in a lot of rooms including the long Wrecked Ship entry spark and pre-Gravity suit spark;
- jumping through ceiling -- used in Wrecked Ship once.
Also used: mockball, Kraid quickest kill, murder beam, gravity jump, Botwoon quick kill, zebetites skip and speedball.

Tricks:
- [url=http://tasvideos.org/SuperMetroidTricks.html#landing_earlier_]landing earlier[/url] -- 1-5 frames saved per jump;
- [url=http://tasvideos.org/SuperMetroidTricks.html#stop_on_a_dime_]stop-on-a-dime[/url] -- ~5-30 frames per elevator (also, protects from the accidental crouching on the downward elevator);
- [url=http://tasvideos.org/SuperMetroidTricks.html#shoulder_pumping_]arm-pumping[/url] -- saves ~1 frame with each pump (Hotarubi does it on several straight running areas, when there's nothing else to do; the frequency and speed are too low and inconsistent for a turbocontroller -- it has been confirmed).
- [url=http://tasvideos.org/SuperMetroidTricks.html#enemy_knockback_]damage boost[/url] -- Hotarubi used it a lot, though he messed up a few knockbacks;
- [url=http://tasvideos.org/SuperMetroidTricks.html#morphball_through_platforms_]morphing through platforms[/url] -- two spiked platforms in Lower Norfair and two kago hives near the Crateria-Brinstar elevator (messed up on one of them);
- [url=http://tasvideos.org/SuperMetroidTricks.html#morphball_bounce_]morphball bounce[/url] -- used when leaving Kraid's room;
- [url=http://tasvideos.org/SuperMetroidTricks.html#fall_through_crumble_blocks_quickly_]force-falling through crumble blocks[/url] -- used a lot of times, but not always successfully;
- [url=http://tasvideos.org/SuperMetroidTricks.html#charge_shinespark_in_shorter_distance_]short/shortest speedboost charge[/url] -- again, used in a lot of rooms including the long Wrecked Ship entry spark and pre-Gravity suit spark;
- [url=http://tasvideos.org/SuperMetroidTricks.html#jumping_through_ceilings_]jumping through ceiling[/url] -- used in Wrecked Ship once.
Also used: mockball, Kraid quickest kill, murder beam, gravity jump, Botwoon quick kill, zebetites skip and speedball.

Yoshi348

2006-11-03 11:20:52 am

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Quote from Smokey:

too bad I can't see this run to comment on it.

Particular reason? (i.e. would it be something nate could fix?)

nate

2006-11-03 11:37:45 am

smokey, there have been some changes at sda. you might try clicking here.

moozooh

2006-11-03 11:43:30 am

The route (if it's still needed):
- the usual beginning (Torizo-Kraid-Phantoon);
- entering Maridia through the tube, Botwoon, Draygon, Plasma beam, the express elevator, going the shortest path to the red Brinstar-Norfair elevator;
- taking the elevator, going through the speed blocks room to the bubble room, taking the bottom exit and going straght to the lower Norfair, blah-blah Ridley, blah-blah escape, returning to red Brinstar with 210 HP;
- going back to green Brinstar through the noob bridge, taking the Brinstar-Crateria elevator, going to Tourian, blah-blah Tourian, beating the game.

griggski

2006-11-05 10:58:41 am

Smokey,

the 32 is very crazy. He uses almost the exact route used in your 36 segmented. There are only 2 differences: on the way to Ridleys lair, he bypasses the recharge, heading towards Lower Norfair via the bubble room. In the room with the lava pillars that rise up (sorry, not sure what they're called), he manages to space jump through the whole length of it. The other route change is taking the brinstar route to tourian.

Tricks. Tricks Tricks Tricks. He uses MANY Many damage boosts, in some extremely difficult spots. The morphball bounce is used in more places than moozooh mentioned. After collecting the charge beam, he heads into the green room to the right, as usual. He immediately jumps, clears the first ledge, mockballs on the next level, and remains a ball in order to bounce right off of the next. Then he unmorphs and damage boosts off the enemy and lands at the bottom. Very smooth. Nearly every room seems to have some sort of craziness like that. He also manages to escape ceres station with a clear time of 46 seconds!

My initial reaction was the same as yours. I had been playing this game extensively, and had in fact mailed in a 36 ss to Nate just weeks before Hotarubi's run was posted. I was sure that a 35 ss was definitely possible, and I thought that 34 would be the limit. But that was using the "old school" method of playing, which is unfortunately the category we would now fall into. I hope you're able to watch the run, if you already haven't. I believe it's real. Unfortunately, I think I'm done with Super Metroid, or at least no longer attempting to break the record. :( Hang in there, Smokey; maybe you can pull off a 31 Wink

Seriously, the only reason I was able to touch your times was through using tricks that hadn't been discovered yet when you completed your runs. Check out the run and decide for yourself.

One more thing: arm-pumping. That's probably the most annoying thing about the run. It's like the back-dashing in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. Once someone does it, everyone's obligated to do it. Tapping R and L as fast as I can during most of the run...well, let's just say it kind of drains any remaining fun out of the game.

I hope that wasn't too long-winded. I may come back to the game eventually, but at the moment my 26-year-old hands don't want to learn the near frame-perfect tricks now required to challenge the record. Good luck to anyone attempting a sub-32.

Smokey,

the 32 is very crazy.  He uses almost the exact route used in your 36 segmented.  There are only 2 differences: on the way to Ridleys lair, he bypasses the recharge, heading towards Lower Norfair via the bubble room.  In the room with the lava pillars that rise up (sorry, not sure what they're called), he manages to space jump through the whole length of it.  The other route change is taking the brinstar route to tourian.

Tricks.  Tricks Tricks Tricks.  He uses MANY Many damage boosts, in some extremely difficult spots.  The morphball bounce is used in more places than moozooh mentioned.  After collecting the charge beam, he heads into the green room to the right, as usual.  He immediately jumps, clears the first ledge, mockballs on the next level, and remains a ball in order to bounce right off of the next.  Then he unmorphs and damage boosts off the enemy and lands at the bottom.  Very smooth.  Nearly every room seems to have some sort of craziness like that.  He also manages to escape ceres station with a clear time of 46 seconds!

My initial reaction was the same as yours.  I had been playing this game extensively, and had in fact mailed in a 36 ss to Nate just weeks before Hotarubi's run was posted.  I was sure that a 35 ss was definitely possible, and I thought that 34 would be the limit.  But that was using the "old school" method of playing, which is unfortunately the category we would now fall into.  I hope you're able to watch the run, if you already haven't.  I believe it's real.  Unfortunately, I think I'm done with Super Metroid, or at least no longer attempting to break the record.   :(  Hang in there, Smokey; maybe you can pull off a 31  :wink:  Seriously, the only reason I was able to touch your times was through using tricks that hadn't been discovered yet when you completed your runs.  Check out the run and decide for yourself.

One more thing: arm-pumping.  That's probably the most annoying thing about the run.  It's like the back-dashing in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night.  Once someone does it, everyone's obligated to do it.  Tapping R and L as fast as I can during most of the run...well, let's just say it kind of drains any remaining fun out of the game.

I hope that wasn't too long-winded.  I may come back to the game eventually, but at the moment my 26-year-old hands don't want to learn the near frame-perfect tricks now required to challenge the record.  Good luck to anyone attempting a sub-32.

BlueGlass

2006-11-05 12:55:11 pm

Quote from griggski:

One more thing: arm-pumping. That's probably the most annoying thing about the run. It's like the back-dashing in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. Once someone does it, everyone's obligated to do it. Tapping R and L as fast as I can during most of the run...well, let's just say it kind of drains any remaining fun out of the game.

He didn't use it anywhere near everyhere, just on straightaways where he wasn't doing anything else. And I remember one of the TASers saying somewhere that it only saved him 2-3 seconds.

nate

2006-11-05 12:56:58 pm

it's that level of hardcore overall though that got him that time.

moozooh

2006-11-05 01:06:01 pm

Yeah, every pump gives roughly a frame of advantage. My estimation on Hotarubi's pumping performance would rather be something along 3-5 seconds, though (at least one of them in Ceres alone). Those 3-5 seconds could as well be covered with two successful damage boosts, it's just that Hotarubi obviously wanted to utilize every timesaver possible.

Saturn

2006-11-05 04:04:57 pm

Quote from BlueGlass:

And I remember one of the TASers saying somewhere that it only saved him 2-3 seconds.

I think you are talking of Graveworm. :)

Though this statement is definitely not true. With 30 Hz Pumping you can save a second in almost all rooms that have a good running space. The total save of arm pumping in TASes should be at least 30 sec, maybe even a minute or more.

BlueGlass

2006-11-05 04:08:32 pm

I was referring to Hotarubi's arm-pumping, not TAS frame-perfect arm-pumping.

spidey-widey

2006-11-05 07:12:12 pm

In addition to tricks not yet mentioned (I believe), hotarubi doesn't save, uses the Norfair gate hater mockball, the gravity suit shinespark, and uses the murder beam a little later in the Mother Brain battle (I believe this saves time, at least).

moozooh

2006-11-05 08:31:26 pm

Quote from spidey-widey:

hotarubi doesn't save

Wow, nice trick for a single-segment run!

spidey-widey

2006-11-05 08:43:17 pm

Genius, is it not?

Yes, a SS will obviously have no saves, but it saves quite a bit of time not to save, assuming you can play just about perfectly.

JareX

2006-11-05 11:23:48 pm

This is insane, that's overwhelming super mighty skillzzz. He did so many trick i couldnt just imagine them, but i almost had a heartatack after getting used to his skills and when he failed the maridia shinespark i was like "omg i can't belive it". And when he saved toribio (i think thats the name of the tall animal) i had to watch it again cause i couldnt belive my eyes. sigh im just so chocked....

I think he went one step further on perfection, but it was still, not perfect.

Sadly, not always "perfect" means fun.

BlueGlass

2006-11-06 01:47:10 am

Quote from JareX:

This is insane, that's overwhelming super mighty skillzzz. He did so many trick i couldnt just imagine them, but i almost had a heartatack after getting used to his skills and when he failed the maridia shinespark i was like "omg i can't belive it". And when he saved toribio (i think thats the name of the tall animal) i had to watch it again cause i couldnt belive my eyes. sigh im just so chocked....

I think he went one step further on perfection, but it was still, not perfect.

Sadly, not always "perfect" means fun.

Actually, I've been practicing Hotarubi's method of the Draygon shinespark, and I'm really not all that surprised he missed it. It has three parts that all have to be done almost exactly to get the trick to work. First, you have to jump at the exact right moment for the geavity jump; too early, and you'll not be moving fast enough to even get out of the water, too late, and you'll slow down too much as you near the water's surface. Second, there's the wall jumps after breaking the surface. The first must happen as soon as Samus is out of water, then you have to immediately get back to the wall for the second. If you take too long on the second wall jump, Samus will go too high and that costs you the precious half a second required to reach the spot for shinesparking. Finally, there's the spark itself. You have to jump the instant AFTER Samus starts moving in the next room, then IMMEDIATELY do the spark. A quick inspection of this part of his run makes me think this was where he messed up. He pressed R a few frames later than he should have, meaning that all his hard work was for nothing (except, of course, to prove that that spark is humanly doable).

Also, if you want to see a "perfect" run if a video game, you might try watching a TAS.

Oh, the tall bird is called a Dachora (not sure on the spelling, as it seems to change between games), and the little creatures are called Etecoons.

[quote="JareX"]This is insane, that's overwhelming super mighty skillzzz. He did so many trick i couldnt just imagine them, but i almost had a heartatack after getting used to his skills and when he failed the maridia shinespark i was like "omg i can't belive it". And when he saved toribio (i think thats the name of the tall animal) i had to watch it again cause i couldnt belive my eyes. sigh im just so chocked....

I think he went one step further on perfection, but it was still, not perfect.

Sadly, not always "perfect" means fun.[/quote]

Actually, I've been practicing Hotarubi's method of the Draygon shinespark, and I'm really not all that surprised he missed it.  It has three parts that all have to be done almost exactly to get the trick to work.  First, you have to jump at the exact right moment for the geavity jump; too early, and you'll not be moving fast enough to even get out of the water, too late, and you'll slow down too much as you near the water's surface.  Second, there's the wall jumps after breaking the surface.  The first must happen as soon as Samus is out of water, then you have to immediately get back to the wall for the second.  If you take too long on the second wall jump, Samus will go too high and that costs you the precious half a second required to reach the spot for shinesparking.  Finally, there's the spark itself.  You have to jump the instant AFTER Samus starts moving in the next room, then IMMEDIATELY do the spark.  A quick inspection of this part of his run makes me think this was where he messed up.  He pressed R a few frames later than he should have, meaning that all his hard work was for nothing (except, of course, to prove that that spark is humanly doable).

Also, if you want to see a "perfect" run if a video game, you might try watching a TAS.

Oh, the tall bird is called a Dachora (not sure on the spelling, as it seems to change between games), and the little creatures are called Etecoons.

nate

2006-11-08 12:09:14 pm

some additional comments by hotarubi as translated by catnap:

http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=99397#99397

good stuff. i don't think any of us had considered that he might have already recorded an inferior 0:32.

BlueGlass

2006-11-08 03:33:47 pm

Interesting indeed. Looks like we were right about how he knew his clear time.