the Official "Wii de Asobu: Metroid Prime" thread [latest update: 10/10/09]

2009-06-07 07:20:24 pm

I still don't understand why they put so much effort in removing things that make the game so much more enjoyable than the regular playthrough. Most gamecube players have probably already played the game without even being aware of a single trick that can be found on metroid2002 and did the Retro intended gameplay.

arkarian

2009-06-07 08:35:24 pm

red chamber dream

programmers are supposed to fix bugs in their software.

nate

2009-06-07 09:07:13 pm

only takes one crash to ruin the reputation of a game if it happens to an internet loudmouth. nintendo is notoriously sensitive to bad press.

StefanvanDijke

Edit history:

StefanvanDijke: 2009-06-08 07:05:06 am

2009-06-08 06:57:49 am

Quote from Baby Sheegoth:

Quote from StefanvanDijke:

-space jump early with bombs. Something is different. I don't get as much distance as I would in the GC version.

Assuming the bombs haven't been fucking knackered, you can just HBJ amirite?

The bomb jumps have been "fucking knackered". You can only use 1 bomb in mid-air.

Also, they didn't try to fix any of the sequence breaks. All they did is include the new play controls and that deletes dash jumps, R-jumps and bomb jumps. I guess they fixed all samus her moves which take away many sequence breaks. The rooms themselfes haven't been touched at all. It still is amazing that in a later release of the game the main quarry lock is not there. I'm interesting to see how the US and EU versions are going to look but I would say they are the same, only with more language options.

Oliver

2009-06-08 10:18:00 am

If dashes and R-jumps have been removed, how did you do MQA without spiderball ? Did you freeze a metroid and jump on it ?

I'd love to know the inner policy of Retro and Nintendo about speedrunning and SBing. What they really think about it. Who decides what to do about it. Where they get their information from. The least we can say is that they care, otherwise they wouldn't had butchered the PAL and PC versions.

StefanvanDijke

2009-06-08 10:42:46 am

Quote from Oliver:

If dashes and R-jumps have been removed, how did you do MQA without spiderball ? Did you freeze a metroid and jump on it ?

Yes I did. Sometimes it pays out if you watch old speedruns:

http://www.archive.org/download/MetroidPrime_eu_117/MetroidPrime_eu_117_part12_512kb.mp4

It is the most difficult trick so far for skipping spider along with the wallcrawl for wild. It surprises me that this is even discovered by someone. A dash seems so much more obvious, and dashes were already discovered back then cos zoidi uses Space jump first. This might be too early but I think picking up spider and supers in a speedrun is much faster unless somehow early wild can be done without wallcrawling.

Opium

2009-06-08 01:53:49 pm

Quote from Oliver:

I'd love to know the inner policy of Retro and Nintendo about speedrunning and SBing. What they really think about it. Who decides what to do about it. Where they get their information from. The least we can say is that they care, otherwise they wouldn't had butchered the PAL and PC versions.

I really don't think they intended the prime games to be broken at all, but they knew enough to know that it probably would be anyways since the game doesn't crash when you go out of sequence. Therefore all breaks are viewed as glitches or imperfections to be ironed out and fixed.

In Super it's obvious they intended people to break the sequence, and in ZM it was practically encouraged.

UchihaSasuke

2009-06-08 02:35:06 pm

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

hm so even the regular bomb jumps were altered. i was wondering if it was just my bad skills that weren't preventing me from reaching SJ with bombs.
i found out several of the things you listed in my runs too. the weakened underwater ghettos are quite damaging and it's too bad they can't be done.

it's nice you managed some of the SBs i failed like geo core without spider. still, grapple screwed us there.

i mentioned it from the get-go that a lot of the SBs were removed only because of the control change. the most glaring evidence they didn't touch any room was the hole to enter the SW in main plaza (that one right?).
at least there were a lot of alternate methods from the PAL version for most of the SBs but the earlier items like SJ took a big hit (2 long trips are needed when getting boost-SJ-wave now, right?)

i don't remember well the menus but the fusion suit option is one that you open with orange tokens. there should be 2 options in that menu. try navigating the bottom menus when you select your file.

hm so even the regular bomb jumps were altered. i was wondering if it was just my bad skills that weren't preventing me from reaching SJ with bombs.
i found out several of the things you listed in my runs too. the weakened underwater ghettos are quite damaging and it's too bad they can't be done.

it's nice you managed some of the SBs i failed like geo core without spider. still, grapple screwed us there.

i mentioned it from the get-go that a lot of the SBs were removed only because of the control change. the most glaring evidence they didn't touch any room was the hole to enter the SW in main plaza (that one right?). 
at least there were a lot of alternate methods from the PAL version for most of the SBs but the earlier items like SJ took a big hit (2 long trips are needed when getting boost-SJ-wave now, right?)

i don't remember well the menus but the fusion suit option is one that you open with orange tokens. there should be 2 options in that menu. try navigating the bottom menus when you select your file.

Oliver

2009-06-08 03:38:27 pm

Quote from Opium:

I really don't think they intended the prime games to be broken at all, but they knew enough to know that it probably would be anyways since the game doesn't crash when you go out of sequence. Therefore all breaks are viewed as glitches or imperfections to be ironed out and fixed.

The fact that the game doesn't crash is pure luck IMO. For example, Infinite Speed is a mere miracle.
In the end, I just mean that this version is far more butchered than PAL and PC. To me, they removed most of the fun.

Quote from Opium:

and in ZM it was practically encouraged.

How's that ?

arkarian

2009-06-08 04:01:52 pm

red chamber dream

it doesn't crash because retro is a fantastic developer that makes very tight, well-programmed games.

Opium

Edit history:

Opium: 2009-06-08 04:15:48 pm

2009-06-08 04:07:28 pm

Quote from Oliver:

Quote from Opium:

I really don't think they intended the prime games to be broken at all, but they knew enough to know that it probably would be anyways since the game doesn't crash when you go out of sequence. Therefore all breaks are viewed as glitches or imperfections to be ironed out and fixed.

The fact that the game doesn't crash is pure luck IMO. For example, Infinite Speed is a mere miracle.
In the end, I just mean that this version is far more butchered than PAL and PC. To me, they removed most of the fun.

I don't recall what the correct term is for it, but they programmed the game so that each item worked on its own and acquiring it wasn't dependent upon previous items you acquired. ie, The game recognizes that fact that you got space jump first and is OK with it, it doesn't care that you don't have boost ball yet. From what i know about infinite speed, it's not really a sequence break is it?

Quote from Oliver:

Quote from Opium:

and in ZM it was practically encouraged.

How's that ?

By putting hidden paths into the game specifically for the purpose of sequence breaking.

[quote="Oliver"]
[quote="Opium"]
I really don't think they intended the prime games to be broken at all, but they knew enough to know that it probably would be anyways since the game doesn't crash when you go out of sequence.  Therefore all breaks are viewed as glitches or imperfections to be ironed out and fixed.  
[/quote]
The fact that the game doesn't crash is pure luck IMO. For example, Infinite Speed is a mere miracle.
In the end, I just mean that this version is far more butchered than PAL and PC. To me, they removed most of the fun.[/quote]

I don't recall what the correct term is for it, but they programmed the game so that each item worked on its own and acquiring it wasn't dependent upon previous items you acquired.  ie, The game recognizes that fact that you got space jump first and is OK with it, it doesn't care that you don't have boost ball yet.  From what i know about infinite speed, it's not really a sequence break is it?

[quote="Oliver"]
[quote="Opium"]
and in ZM it was practically encouraged.  
[/quote]
How's that ?
[/quote]

By putting hidden paths into the game specifically for the purpose of sequence breaking.

arkarian

2009-06-08 04:23:02 pm

red chamber dream

Quote from Opium:

From what i know about infinite speed, it's not really a sequence break is it?

flickerball is just a really glitchy technique. it is fairly surprising it doesn't crash the game though.

Oliver

2009-06-08 04:40:20 pm

Quote from Opium:

I don't recall what the correct term is for it, but they programmed the game so that each item worked on its own and acquiring it wasn't dependent upon previous items you acquired. ie, The game recognizes that fact that you got space jump first and is OK with it, it doesn't care that you don't have boost ball yet.

Ok, I see what you mean.
However, I don't think that this way of programming has something to do with sequence breaking. They didn't care about checking if you had boostball or not while picking up space jump because you're supposed to have boostball to climb up the half pipe in Tallon Canyon. Items work independently for design purpose, allowing to change the pick up order if needed while the game was being developped.

Quote from Opium:

From what i know about infinite speed, it's not really a sequence break is it?

Well, kind of, if you consider that you can pick up early items thanks to it.

Quote from Opium:

Quote from Oliver:

Quote from Opium:

and in ZM it was practically encouraged.

How's that ?

By putting hidden paths into the game specifically for the purpose of sequence breaking.

I like the idea that developpers would put things intentionally for sequence breaking Very Happy

Quote from arkarian:

flickerball is just a really glitchy technique. it is fairly surprising it doesn't crash the game though.

The light show clearly demonstrates that something is corrupted in there.

Metroid Menace (who has reverse-engineered the game) told me that IS is due to a quiet NAN.

[quote="Opium"]
I don't recall what the correct term is for it, but they programmed the game so that each item worked on its own and acquiring it wasn't dependent upon previous items you acquired.  ie, The game recognizes that fact that you got space jump first and is OK with it, it doesn't care that you don't have boost ball yet.
[/quote]
Ok, I see what you mean.
However, I don't think that this way of programming has something to do with sequence breaking. They didn't care about checking if you had boostball or not while picking up space jump because you're supposed to have boostball to climb up the half pipe in Tallon Canyon. Items work independently for design purpose, allowing to change the pick up order if needed while the game was being developped.

[quote="Opium"]
From what i know about infinite speed, it's not really a sequence break is it?
[/quote]
Well, kind of, if you consider that you can pick up early items thanks to it.

[quote="Opium"]
[quote="Oliver"]
[quote="Opium"]
and in ZM it was practically encouraged.  
[/quote]
How's that ?
[/quote]

By putting hidden paths into the game specifically for the purpose of sequence breaking.
[/quote]
I like the idea that developpers would put things intentionally for sequence breaking  :veryhappy_orig:

[quote="arkarian"]
flickerball is just a really glitchy technique. it is fairly surprising it doesn't crash the game though.
[/quote]
The light show clearly demonstrates that something is corrupted in there.

Metroid Menace (who has reverse-engineered the game) told me that IS is due to a quiet NAN.

StefanvanDijke

2009-06-08 04:51:35 pm

Yeh we need a long trip now from boost to space jump to wave. I really want to get early wave or early space jump.

Quote from UchihaSasuke:

i don't remember well the menus but the fusion suit option is one that you open with orange tokens. there should be 2 options in that menu. try navigating the bottom menus when you select your file.

Ah yes, I found the fusion suit option. So whats the other option for on the same page?

I also did some testing on IS for early sun. Problem is that once you get the flicker ball you go into the light show then out of it, the light show occurs randomly. Problem is that the wave door turned purple once you enter the light show and I was unable to enter the door without having a light show first. Also unmorphing gives a light show but morph again and you're out of it. The shell returns and you have light show in first person but not in morphball. Also I was able to open the wave door but IS was lost cos boosting didn't do anything. I had fusion suit on so this might have something to do with it or IS is just different for some reason.

Yeh we need a long trip now from boost to space jump to wave. I really want to get early wave or early space jump.

[quote="UchihaSasuke"]i don't remember well the menus but the fusion suit option is one that you open with orange tokens. there should be 2 options in that menu. try navigating the bottom menus when you select your file.
[/quote]

Ah yes, I found the fusion suit option. So whats the other option for on the same page?

I also did some testing on IS for early sun. Problem is that once you get the flicker ball you go into the light show then out of it, the light show occurs randomly. Problem is that the wave door turned purple once you enter the light show and I was unable to enter the door without having a light show first. Also unmorphing gives a light show but morph again and you're out of it. The shell returns and you have light show in first person but not in morphball. Also I was able to open the wave door but IS was lost cos boosting didn't do anything. I had fusion suit on so this might have something to do with it or IS is just different for some reason.

Oliver

2009-06-08 05:00:28 pm

IS creates a bug inside the program, so the way the game reacts to this depends on the program itself. New program = new behaviour. IS has probably changed from the gamecube version we know. The way it can be used from now on has yet to be found. Maybe you can try on other spots (Magma Pool early PB, maybe ?).

SkippyJr

2009-06-08 06:06:09 pm

Quote from StefanvanDijke:

Ah yes, I found the fusion suit option. So whats the other option for on the same page.

Snapshot tool.

Thanks for the additional info. Too bad about the nerfed DBJs/laddered DBJs.

Exploring what has changed with IS seems like fun. Knowing how to reach that NaN more quickly in an IS would be useful to speedrunners if Menace has any ideas.

Opium

2009-06-08 10:39:08 pm

Quote from Oliver:

Quote from Opium:

I don't recall what the correct term is for it, but they programmed the game so that each item worked on its own and acquiring it wasn't dependent upon previous items you acquired. ie, The game recognizes that fact that you got space jump first and is OK with it, it doesn't care that you don't have boost ball yet.

Ok, I see what you mean.
However, I don't think that this way of programming has something to do with sequence breaking. They didn't care about checking if you had boostball or not while picking up space jump because you're supposed to have boostball to climb up the half pipe in Tallon Canyon. Items work independently for design purpose, allowing to change the pick up order if needed while the game was being developped.

whatever the reason, it allows for sequence breaking. Unlike fusion, which I don't believe would let you have an early item (even if you could get to it) because everything is event-driven.

Quote from Oliver:

Quote from Opium:

From what i know about infinite speed, it's not really a sequence break is it?

Well, kind of, if you consider that you can pick up early items thanks to it.

So it's more like a move/glitch that allows you to do sequence breaks.

[quote="Oliver"]
[quote="Opium"]
I don't recall what the correct term is for it, but they programmed the game so that each item worked on its own and acquiring it wasn't dependent upon previous items you acquired.  ie, The game recognizes that fact that you got space jump first and is OK with it, it doesn't care that you don't have boost ball yet.
[/quote]
Ok, I see what you mean.
However, I don't think that this way of programming has something to do with sequence breaking. They didn't care about checking if you had boostball or not while picking up space jump because you're supposed to have boostball to climb up the half pipe in Tallon Canyon. Items work independently for design purpose, allowing to change the pick up order if needed while the game was being developped.[/quote]

whatever the reason, it allows for sequence breaking.  Unlike fusion, which I don't believe would let you have an early item (even if you could get to it) because everything is event-driven.

[quote="Oliver"]
[quote="Opium"]
From what i know about infinite speed, it's not really a sequence break is it?
[/quote]
Well, kind of, if you consider that you can pick up early items thanks to it.[/quote]

So it's more like a move/glitch that allows you to do sequence breaks.

Baby Sheegoth

2009-06-08 11:22:23 pm

There's a still a method to get to spinner 1 without grapple, without the R-dash and stalagmite.

StefanvanDijke

2009-06-09 03:28:46 am

I'll check the early powerbomb in Chozo Ruins with IS.

Quote from Baby Sheegoth:

There's a still a method to get to spinner 1 without grapple, without the R-dash and stalagmite.

If you are refering to the hbj of the puddle spore then that doesn't work because of the bomb jumping. Anything else, please let me know.

Baby Sheegoth

2009-06-09 08:04:39 am

The long jump from the veeeeery tip of the box (that's near the stalagmite) to the spinner. It's not particularly difficult, nor particularly easy.

tjp7154

Edit history:

tjp7154: 2009-06-09 07:05:19 pm

2009-06-09 06:12:03 pm

Bananas GOOD, Kremlings BAD

Concerning the new play control, it's just MP3's controls into MP1 and 2, right?

If that's the case, we were still able to get a limited dash jump in MP3 by using the sudden speed you get from strafing off a platform while locked onto something.

Example: Paraxade's MP3 Any% Run, segment 6, at 1:25:
[noembed]

Also, my examples:

[/noembed]

arkarian

2009-06-09 06:25:25 pm

red chamber dream

interesting, never knew about that. hopefully it's left in.

tjp7154

2009-06-09 07:02:13 pm

Bananas GOOD, Kremlings BAD

Hopefully it can be used as a work-around, ya know...

StefanvanDijke

2009-06-10 04:01:39 am

I'm not sure what the conditions are for getting the trick to work. Do I have to stand on a ledge thats has an angle? For example a horizontal ledge wont work. I tried this for SJF but it wont work if what I think is true. Maybe this can be used to reach spinner 1. Skipping grapple is going to be importand in a speedrun because of the benzium blocking the graplle beam room.

tjp7154

2009-06-10 06:11:33 am

Bananas GOOD, Kremlings BAD

As far as I know, all ledges should work. The main problem is that the timing window was really small for the ledges in those videos. Have you been able to do those dashes in the videos?