Speed Running

2008-05-02 05:24:19 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

I think there's interest, but there isn't a whole lot to talk about really.

Even if there wasn't interest though, running a game more for other people than oneself isn't the best idea. Speedrun a gain because you want to and you enjoy it, entertaining others should come afterwards.

Rofz

2008-05-03 03:27:19 am

yeh, i guess. anyway, i don't understand why no-one has done a run of this game using secret worlds. im sorry if this is already in another topic. im pretty sure the rules were that you are allowed to use glitches in games for speed runs, and a few are already used in carlmii's runs, so why doesnt someone make a run using them. or am i the person who is supposed to do that? i guess ill give it a go. can anyone point me in the direction of the nearest site that can give tips on m2:ros secret worlds. ive heard that they can teleport you to different parts of the game. is this true?

BioSpark

2008-05-03 01:54:41 pm

iirc secret worlds aren't allowed at sda. If they do allow the kind in m2:ros then no one has been interested.

Rofz

2008-05-04 12:56:20 am

ah...... ok.

carlmmii

2008-05-04 11:54:59 am

Secret worlds are not allowed at SDA, which is the major reason why a decent run hasn't been recorded which uses the glitch. The other reasons are that it's a bitch to make the secret worlds open up at the right place (or even at all, especially on the gameboy player), and not that many people understand how secret worlds actually work.

The only person I know who truly understands secret worlds is LeCoureur103. Based on what I gather from his explanations, it is possible to figure out how everything is interconnected, but figuring out exactly how to use the interconnection (and figuring out if the secret world version of an area is even able to be explored) is very difficult.

Basically, the way I understand it, the "secret world" comes about when you travel from one "block" of the 16x16 map grid to another block which uses a different tileset. Since you get to that new block directly, the game never loads the tileset (which it would normally do during a full-black room change). Depending on which area you started in, that would be the tileset used for the new area. Without knowing how the game is going to use the existing tileset in memory, there's no way to figure out what the new area is going to look like. Also, you would need to know the exact layout of the 16x16 map blocks in the game's memory in order to plan everything out.

It might be an interesting project though to fully map out the possible secret world versions of the areas. Start with mapping out the 16x16 blocks using the intended tileset, and figuring out the borderlines for each of the physically connected areas, as well as the tileset change areas. Then from there, going through and applying different tilesets to each area based on the tilesets used next to it in memory space. The hard part after that would be making a route from what you get.

Quite a bit of basic discussion on this topic was covered in this thread. The no bomb faq by LeCoureur103 can be found here.

Secret worlds are not allowed at SDA, which is the major reason why a decent run hasn't been recorded which uses the glitch. The other reasons are that it's a bitch to make the secret worlds open up at the right place (or even at all, especially on the gameboy player), and not that many people understand how secret worlds actually work.

The only person I know who truly understands secret worlds is LeCoureur103. Based on what I gather from his explanations, it is possible to figure out how everything is interconnected, but figuring out exactly how to use the interconnection (and figuring out if the secret world version of an area is even able to be explored) is very difficult.

Basically, the way I understand it, the "secret world" comes about when you travel from one "block" of the 16x16 map grid to another block which uses a different tileset. Since you get to that new block directly, the game never loads the tileset (which it would normally do during a full-black room change). Depending on which area you started in, that would be the tileset used for the new area. Without knowing how the game is going to use the existing tileset in memory, there's no way to figure out what the new area is going to look like. Also, you would need to know the exact layout of the 16x16 map blocks in the game's memory in order to plan everything out.

It might be an interesting project though to fully map out the possible secret world versions of the areas. Start with mapping out the 16x16 blocks using the intended tileset, and figuring out the borderlines for each of the physically connected areas, as well as the tileset change areas. Then from there, going through and applying different tilesets to each area based on the tilesets used next to it in memory space. The hard part after that would be making a route from what you get.

Quite a bit of basic discussion on this topic was covered [url=http://forum.metroid2002.com/index.php/topic,2197.0.html]in this thread[/url]. The no bomb faq by LeCoureur103 can be found [url=http://mmii.info/misc/no_bombs.wps]here[/url].

Rofz

2008-05-05 07:11:44 am

hmm. but, in major world one, on that .zophar site or watever, i went into it and saved, and went exploring, and i found some parts where there are random blocks scattered around everywhere, and even the room with the save station everwhere has blocks everywhere. if secret worlds are just a normal room with a different tielset, then why would there be random blocks everywhere, coz in the normal world there arent any rooms like that? also, an interesting thing, that same world, when traversed far enough, gets you into the room where the queen metroid is, but u come in the way where that ur supposed to go out. when you go back out though, its not the sw anymore, and it goes to normal thing with the baby metroid, and the escape, but u cant leave when u get to the ship. haha. if anyone wants that site raise their hand and ill find it, but googleing 'metroid 2 secret worlds' should work.

bushwacker

2008-05-07 05:04:16 am

carlmmii if you were actually able to do the stuff I talked about in that FAQ then a big congrats. It all made sense to me when I wrote it but looking back it all seems pretty incomprehensible... And I saw in a TAS somewhere that someone collected the Varia Suit without using bombs I think so that one can be scratched off the list at least.

Rofz

Edit history:

Rofz: 2009-01-27 06:03:32 am

2009-01-26 09:58:30 pm

"I'm back baby doll!" is definately a good expression to use right now.

After my 11.5 month hibernation (AKA playing better Metroid games), I decided to blow the dust off my 'brick', and found after turning it on (to check the batteries) that Metroid 2: RoS was inside.

"Hmm," I sais to meself, "I wonder whether the save that I made inside a secret world is still here?"

...30 mins later...

"Okay fine, you win, I'll play this game."

Now I return with news, news of the birth of a Single Segment any% (and a bump to an old topic). So now, down to the timing. I am nowhere near speedrunning this, but I need a goal to work towards. Carlmmii's (5 year old) 100% SS is 1:09:23, so according to logic, an any% needs to be somewhere below that mark. Depending on my skill in a couple of months, I hope to get under 1:05:xx. Best case scenario, I obsolete the segmented any%, forcing carlmmii to redo his run if he wants to keep it there.

Now, someone comment on what I've just said ;)

EDIT: I am experimenting with some new spider throw places, so I think that with the time saved with those (possibly 1-3 mins), good metroid fights and the extra 10 seconds I get from not saving, obsoleting the current (4 year old) segmented might not be that far out of reach. And looking back at carlmmii's run, I can see many small errors that can be easily avoided with care, although I am bound to make a plethora of them as well. I will post up practice run times as they come through, if people are interested.

I really want to see a near perfect run up on SDA, whether I do it or anyone else, so hopefully my doing of this run will spike some enthusiasm for a long dead game.

"I'm back baby doll!" is definately a good expression to use right now.

After my 11.5 month hibernation (AKA playing better Metroid games), I decided to blow the dust off my 'brick', and found after turning it on (to check the batteries) that Metroid 2: RoS was inside.

"Hmm," I sais to meself, "I wonder whether the save that I made inside a secret world is still here?"

...30 mins later...

"Okay fine, you win, I'll play this game."

Now I return with news, news of the birth of a Single Segment any% (and a bump to an old topic). So now, down to the timing. I am nowhere near speedrunning this, but I need a goal to work towards. Carlmmii's (5 year old) 100% SS is 1:09:23, so according to logic, an any% needs to be somewhere below that mark. Depending on my skill in a couple of months, I hope to get under 1:05:xx. Best case scenario, I obsolete the segmented any%, forcing carlmmii to redo his run if he wants to keep it there.

Now, someone comment on what I've just said ;)

EDIT: I am experimenting with some new spider throw places, so I think that with the time saved with those (possibly 1-3 mins), good metroid fights and the extra 10 seconds I get from not saving, obsoleting the current (4 year old) segmented might not be that far out of reach. And looking back at carlmmii's run, I can see many small errors that can be easily avoided with care, although I am bound to make a plethora of them as well. I will post up practice run times as they come through, if people are interested.

I really want to see a near perfect run up on SDA, whether I do it or anyone else, so hopefully my doing of this run will spike some enthusiasm for a long dead game.

JaggerG

2009-01-27 06:32:44 am

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

I've been hoping for a better 100% run for a long time. Hopefully this any% attempt is gonna spark carl's interest there, too. It just gets on my nerves seeing him bomb shootable blocks that one time. >_<

horscht(i)

2009-01-27 12:36:36 pm

defrag in progress

Quote from Rofz:

I really want to see a near perfect run up on SDA

That`s what we all want to see on SDA! You got my attention! I`m waiting for your progress updates.

btw: Why is carlmmii`s run not listed on TG? Never bothered trying or did they reject it?

Rofz

2009-01-27 11:08:23 pm

Okay, glad to see some support :)

Progress Report:

When I first turned on the Game Boy, after I finished playing around in a Secret World, I found that on file 3 I had a half finished game. I finished it and ended with a time of 2:27 (not too flash for a practicing speedrunner). However, I then started a new one and finished with a time of 1:46, not that bad for a second play through after almost a year. These were both using my own route, and not doing the acid dive. I also spent 20 minutes refilling missiles and energy, due to poor planning and a shameful lose of energy on normal enemies. My spider throw skills are at the moment in the ER room, but they should be fine after another 2 play throughs, and the new places to use them are helping lower the end time immensely.

I hope to get an in-game end time of 1:20 or less this time, and will post again with the next update.

As anyone who has been planning a speedrun should know, it helps a great deal when people, even just guests to the site, post a short message giving encouragement. So folks, keep the responses coming if you want to see this run ever up on SDA.

Okay, glad to see some support :)

Progress Report:

When I first turned on the Game Boy, after I finished playing around in a Secret World, I found that on file 3 I had a half finished game. I finished it and ended with a time of 2:27 (not too flash for a practicing speedrunner). However, I then started a new one and finished with a time of 1:46, not that bad for a second play through after almost a year. These were both using my own route, and not doing the acid dive. I also spent 20 minutes refilling missiles and energy, due to poor planning and a shameful lose of energy on normal enemies. My spider throw skills are at the moment in the ER room, but they should be fine after another 2 play throughs, and the new places to use them are helping lower the end time immensely.

I hope to get an in-game end time of 1:20 or less this time, and will post again with the next update.

As anyone who has been planning a speedrun should know, it helps a great deal when people, even just guests to the site, post a short message giving encouragement. So folks, keep the responses coming if you want to see this run ever up on SDA.

JaggerG

2009-01-30 07:06:52 pm

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

Quote from horscht(i):

Why is carlmmii`s run not listed on TG? Never bothered trying or did they reject it?

Most likely they don't accept runs that use the spider-toss just because they're TG. I'm not really sure, though, but it seems like the kind of thing they might ban.

arkarian

2009-01-30 07:59:24 pm

red chamber dream

Quote from horscht(i):

btw: Why is carlmmii`s run not listed on TG? Never bothered trying or did they reject it?

why do you care about tg ?

horscht(i)

2009-01-31 09:33:39 am

defrag in progress

I don`t care about TG. I was just curious, whether he tried or not.

So Rofz, give us some footage!

Rofz

2009-01-31 10:09:02 pm

Quote from horscht(i):

So Rofz, give us some footage!

Footage of what, specifically? New techniques, end times, random parts during the run?

And pictures, or video?

I don't actually have a GameCube with which I can record at the moment, so all my practice is done on my GBA/SP. I could probably record a clip with my handycam, although that wouldn't look very good. If you want though, I will, as soon as I get enough time to.

JaggerG

2009-01-31 11:40:23 pm

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

Not to discourage you or anything, but carlmmii started trying a 100% multi-segment run a couple years ago intending to finish at :58 in-game time, shooting for just under 1:04 real time.

I still think you should keep trying though, just so you can have a good personal best. I never got a record or anything, but I'm pretty proud of my Fusion and Zero Mission times.

Rofz

2009-02-01 12:12:19 am

Okay... I guess that gives me a rough goal to work towards.

Either way, I am still going to keep playing this game again and again, until I reach 1:00 in-game, then start recording.

As Vader would say, "Your lack of faith is disturbing"

horscht(i)

2009-02-01 07:18:38 am

defrag in progress

By footage I mean some awesome Omega fights or stuff like that.
If you don`t have proper recording equipment, than just practice and deliver us a fine piece of gaming. :)

Rofz

2009-02-02 02:27:10 am

Awesome Omega fights eh? Sounds good, I guess I'll give it a shot recording with a camera, put it up on youtube and see what you guys think. I'll get onto it as soon as I can, which is in a couple of days. It wont look that good, but I'll give it a try anyway. Which would you rather see it on, the old GB, or on my SP?

horscht(i)

2009-02-02 07:36:33 am

defrag in progress

Doesn`t matter. Which is more comfortable to you.
But as I said: Focus on practicing, if you don`t have proper equipment.

Rofz

2009-02-03 01:50:26 am

It would be easier if I didn't bother with the recording. I'll just play it through tens of times, and when I get the chance to play it through in one go, I'll take a picture of the end time. I'll keep everyone on this board informed if I do decide to tape a bit. And I hope carlmmii is reading this, the whole point of me doing this is to get him to improve his run.

carlmmii

2009-02-07 12:38:35 am

You bet your ass I'm reading this. I've been out to sea for the last few months, and I decided to watch some of the TAS runs and compare it to my own. That alone was enough to kick me back in gear. I'll be going back out to sea very soon, but at least this time I'll have my gba with me to practice.

Just so you know, I redid the 100% SS and got a time of 1:05:xx, but I don't know if it got updated on SDA. Unfortunately I don't have any time to upload it right now.

The goal for me right now is to do a 3-segment 100% run, using the same segments as the any-% run, but taking it to proper SDA level, meaning planning out each room exactly how it's supposed to be run, and using many new tricks I've been figuring out (delayed bombs and spider rebounds, with some other interesting stuff thrown in).

I'll be glad to offer any help once I get back. I love competition. Very Happy

Rofz

2009-02-07 01:00:04 am

Help is exactly what I need at the moment, so any advice you can offer will be incredibly helpful. At the moment I am having trouble with the first third of the run, half the time I run out of missiles in ruins 2 while fighting Metroids, and am forced to reset and start again. I can't remember how many pickups you got at the start of your any% segmented, so I think I should watch your run again. Also, on average I use about 5.2 missiles on Alphas, 12 on Gammas, and I haven't bothered to count how many I miss with Zetas and Omegas. So my Metroid fights have a lot of room for improvement. The weekend is basically the only time I can work on this run, so every weekend I intend to run through the game 1-3 times, at least one of those being a single-segment, although I think I'm a few weeks away from being able to do that. I'll give updates as I play through the game.

carlmmii

2009-02-07 04:58:03 am

For an any%, here's the missiles I pick up and skip, in the order I pick up/pass them, through ruins 2 (as far as I can remember):

Ruins 1:

1x in bomb room
(skip the 2 tanks in the room to the left of the spider ball)
2x while exiting ruins 1 at the top

Ruins 2:

(skip missile on upper-right outside tunnel)
1x in room past high jump room
(skip 3x missiles left in high jump area)
1x in first room going to varia
(skip missile hidden in ceiling of varia passage)

Before I run a route, I go through it on paper keeping track of ideally how many missiles I'd have based on perfect metroid fights, missile pickups, and extra missile usage on the route. Then, I figure out the fudge factor based on losses due to metroid fights and gains due to missile enemies and figure out good metrics to use along the way. If I don't meet the metric, then it means I have to be careful, get lucky, or just reset.

horscht(i)

2009-02-08 05:18:53 am

defrag in progress

Hey, nice! Finally the black and white adventure of our favourite heroine regains some attention!