Speed Running

2005-01-16 05:31:05 am

Very good news:

I'm just about to break the hour barrier. I finished section 2 today for my 3-segment any% w/ spider throw, making 40:10 at the zeta save (20 seconds faster than my 1:01:26 run), with plenty of health and missiles to work with. I just ran a quickie last section which ended at 1:01:20 (meaning even with spider throwing it was worse than my previous time :p), and spliced a second run into it, and resulted in a total of 1:00:02, with non-optimal omega fights. This is it. :D

nate

2005-01-16 10:51:48 am

don't you love that feeling though?

bushwacker

2005-01-16 01:29:23 pm

Go man go!

Zeke

2005-01-17 12:10:45 pm

Time bomb set get out fast!

I finally found a used copy of Metroid II when I was home for Christmas, so my Metroid collection is now complete (not counting Prime Hunters, but the full version of that isn't even out yet). My abiding love for Return of Samus is a subject for another post, but suffice to say I never get tired of playing it. I'm currently trying to beat the 2:00 mark -- this is the last 2D Metroid where I haven't done so yet. I think the reason I'm finding it tricky is that my original RoS obsession happened years ago, before I'd ever heard of speed running, so I still have habits like stopping to kill every enemy instead of just running by.

carlmii: I just watched your almost-complete 3-item run. Awesome moves. RoS is probably the least fun Metroid game to watch someone else play, so it says something that I really enjoyed your run. I'm curious about one thing, though -- why do you always morph when you have a long horizontal stretch to cover? I'm used to the Morph Ball being slower than walking (in 2D), and even if it's faster here, doesn't the extra morphing time cancel that out?

I finally found a used copy of Metroid II when I was home for Christmas, so my Metroid collection is now complete (not counting Prime Hunters, but the full version of that isn't even out yet).  My abiding love for Return of Samus is a subject for another post, but suffice to say I never get tired of playing it.  I'm currently trying to beat the 2:00 mark -- this is the last 2D Metroid where I haven't done so yet.  I think the reason I'm finding it tricky is that my original RoS obsession happened years ago, before I'd ever heard of speed running, so I still have habits like stopping to kill every enemy instead of just running by.

carlmii: I just watched your almost-complete 3-item run.  Awesome moves.  RoS is probably the least fun Metroid game to watch someone else play, so it says something that I really enjoyed your run.  I'm curious about one thing, though -- why do you always morph when you have a long horizontal stretch to cover?  I'm used to the Morph Ball being slower than walking (in 2D), and even if it's faster here, doesn't the extra morphing time cancel that out?

carlmmii

2005-01-17 12:23:31 pm

Here's some of the numbers I managed to find out:

Moving in the air is the slowest form of horizontal movement (call this base speed).
Running without varia is 1.5x base speed.
Rolling as a morph ball and running with varia is 2x base speed.

Now, normally it takes me 6 frames to morph and start rolling (.2 sec), so if the difference between the 1.5x and 2x speed for the distance covered comes up to more than .2 sec, I'll roll it.

Of course, this leads to the eventual missed rolls, but those are too few and far in between. The only section where there's only a fractional advantage is in the very first section near the ship, and I try and make full use of it because if I screw it up I can just restart and try again. :)

Zeke

2005-01-17 05:22:59 pm

Time bomb set get out fast!

Oh, well that makes perfect sense. Of course Samus would run faster in a bulkier suit. Ah well... gift horse, mouth, etc. (It's actually not a bad idea, but it's applied to the wrong suit. The Gravity Suit could easily enable you to run faster -- it warps gravity, after all.)

Anyway, good to know what all the morphing was about. Maybe I'll incorporate it into my own runs sometime... but with a best time of 2:00, I have a long way to go before the seconds saved by that tactic would matter.

carlmmii

2005-01-17 06:34:45 pm

1:00:08

Shoot me now. Those 8 seconds come from falling between the platforms between omegas, and missing two of the queen's openings. Evil or Very Mad

If I don't beat that tonight, I'm just going to upload that run. Either way, you'll get to see how the hell this is possible.

Zeke

2005-01-17 07:34:25 pm

Time bomb set get out fast!

Oh, we know how it's possible.

Black magic. In a Satanic ritual, you've summoned up the malevolent demon Mephisto and bound him to the task of slowing time while you play Return of Samus. In exchange, you've promised him the blood of your first born, which will be used to create a new Chozo item called the Blood Beam.

You think you're so goth.

carlmmii

2005-01-18 12:30:48 am

Edit: No more need for these vids, the hour has finally been broken.

Zeke

2005-01-23 07:10:20 am

Time bomb set get out fast!

Wow. Guess that means the third segment of your 1:00:08 is a collector's item now. Anyone care to make me an offer?

Quote:

Moving in the air is the slowest form of horizontal movement (call this base speed).
Running without varia is 1.5x base speed.
Rolling as a morph ball and running with varia is 2x base speed.

I forgot to ask before -- how does the spider throw stack up? There were a couple of spots where you used it instead of running, even with Varia. Is it better than 2x base speed, or was that just out of habit? (I'm assuming it was habit in the cases where you morphed for speed after you had the Varia.)

I've made some progress with Metroid II myself in the last week. First I got 2:00 on the dot; I tried again and got that down to 1:45. Today I did another run, and although it didn't feel like I was doing any better than last time, I finished with 1:30! I think that's the closest I've ever come to the standing record for a Metroid game, so I'm pretty pleased. Now I'm just wondering if this "15 minutes faster each time" pattern will hold....

(By the way, my runs are only nominally any%. My comfort zone tends to be very close to 100% in Metroid games; in my last run, for example, I picked up everything but the Spazer and five missile tanks. Next time I think I'll try skipping all but one beam (Spazer or Plasma) and most of the out-of-the-way tanks.)

Wow.  Guess that means the third segment of your 1:00:08 is a collector's item now.  Anyone care to make me an offer?

[quote]Moving in the air is the slowest form of horizontal movement (call this base speed). 
Running without varia is 1.5x base speed. 
Rolling as a morph ball and running with varia is 2x base speed.[/quote]

I forgot to ask before -- how does the spider throw stack up?  There were a couple of spots where you used it instead of running, even with Varia.  Is it better than 2x base speed, or was that just out of habit?  (I'm assuming it was habit in the cases where you morphed for speed after you had the Varia.)

I've made some progress with Metroid II myself in the last week.  First I got 2:00 on the dot; I tried again and got that down to 1:45.  Today I did another run, and although it didn't feel like I was doing any better than last time, I finished with 1:30!  I think that's the closest I've ever come to the standing record for a Metroid game, so I'm pretty pleased.  Now I'm just wondering if this "15 minutes faster each time" pattern will hold....

(By the way, my runs are only nominally any%.  My comfort zone tends to be very close to 100% in Metroid games; in my last run, for example, I picked up everything but the Spazer and five missile tanks.  Next time I think I'll try skipping all but one beam (Spazer or Plasma) and most of the out-of-the-way tanks.)

carlmmii

2005-01-23 12:40:01 pm

Just keep playing and you'll naturally lower your time each time you play. That's really all I did... my time was always around 1:26 before I learned of all these tricks, and I was never really running for extreme speed. Just completion. :)

Spider Throwing is exactly the same speed as running w/ varia and rolling. Most of the time I spider throw instead of doing long jumps. In some cases, it's faster than running because of some jumping involved (like jumping over little pot holes... which I royally screwed up coming back from the gamma w/ refill at the end of segment 2). Which ones were you really wondering about?

Zeke

2005-01-24 04:16:36 am

Time bomb set get out fast!

Never mind -- on rewatching the run, it turns out I'm full of crap. :) Your spider throws were always in areas with either pitted ground or minor enemies, never a completely level surface.

And as of today, my new record is 1:24! I'm going by cartridge time here; if and when I get to the point where my times are competitive, I'll start measuring properly. This run I skipped all beams but Plasma and picked up the 15 easiest missile tanks. (I wasn't quite secure enough yet to skip any energy tanks.) It went pretty smoothly; the tensest part was the series of Alphas and Gammas in the area left and down from the pre-Varia save point, because I was running really low on missiles. I ended up toasting the last Gamma with exactly one missile to spare.

After spending all this time with Metroid II in the last few days, I shouldn't try to improve on that time any further for a while. But I probably will....

carlmmii

2005-01-24 06:08:08 am

You should definitely try. It'd be nice to get some friendly competition going, and it shouldn't be too hard for you to lower your time even further. Usually, the areas where you can lower your time the most is in the route and the metroid fights. Sure, there are little tricks for squeezing a few frames out, but if you can't get the fights well enough, it doesn't really matter.

I'd actually be quite interested in seeing one of your runs, just for the heck of it. :D

Zeke

2005-01-24 07:33:29 am

Time bomb set get out fast!

Quote from carlmmii:

You should definitely try.

Don't get me wrong, I intend to keep working on that time. I just need to start doing my Master's work first. :)

Quote:

It'd be nice to get some friendly competition going, and it shouldn't be too hard for you to lower your time even further. Usually, the areas where you can lower your time the most is in the route and the metroid fights. Sure, there are little tricks for squeezing a few frames out, but if you can't get the fights well enough, it doesn't really matter.

True enough. I've made a lot of progress with my Metroid fights; I only waste about one missile in five now, and the only Metroids that still give me much trouble are Zetas. On a slight tangent, ever noticed how similar an Omega Metroid fight is to fighting Nightmare from Fusion? The Omega will spend extended periods just hanging in the air, and when it does move, it goes around in circles for an indefinite period trying to ram you. (Too bad Nightmare isn't extra-vulnerable from behind....)

Quote:

I'd actually be quite interested in seeing one of your runs, just for the heck of it. :D

Hmm. I've never recorded a run before, so I'd need to get set up with the necessary equipment. But once I get a low enough time and polish my technique a bit, I may well take you up on that. I like the friendly competition idea.

[quote="carlmmii"]You should definitely try.[/quote]

Don't get me wrong, I intend to keep working on that time.  I just need to start doing my Master's work first. :)

[quote]It'd be nice to get some friendly competition going, and it shouldn't be too hard for you to lower your time even further. Usually, the areas where you can lower your time the most is in the route and the metroid fights. Sure, there are little tricks for squeezing a few frames out, but if you can't get the fights well enough, it doesn't really matter.[/quote]

True enough.  I've made a lot of progress with my Metroid fights; I only waste about one missile in five now, and the only Metroids that still give me much trouble are Zetas.  On a slight tangent, ever noticed how similar an Omega Metroid fight is to fighting Nightmare from Fusion?  The Omega will spend extended periods just hanging in the air, and when it does move, it goes around in circles for an indefinite period trying to ram you.  (Too bad Nightmare isn't extra-vulnerable from behind....)

[quote]I'd actually be quite interested in seeing one of your runs, just for the heck of it. :D[/quote]

Hmm.  I've never recorded a run before, so I'd need to get set up with the necessary equipment.  But once I get a low enough time and polish my technique a bit, I may well take you up on that.  I like the friendly competition idea.

carlmmii

2005-01-24 11:46:03 am

Quote from Zeke:

On a slight tangent, ever noticed how similar an Omega Metroid fight is to fighting Nightmare from Fusion? The Omega will spend extended periods just hanging in the air, and when it does move, it goes around in circles for an indefinite period trying to ram you. (Too bad Nightmare isn't extra-vulnerable from behind....)

Yes! That's the first thing I noticed when I fought Nightmare, so from then on it was pretty easy since I already knew how to control the Omegas' movement. :D

And about the extra-vulnerable from behind thing, truthfully I had no idea about that until after I had recorded my 100% run. I had always assumed they took some random amount between 20 and 30, instead of the 40 w/ 3x on back (facts which I of course abuse beyond belief now... a perfect omega fight should have 4 initial "front" missiles, then 12 successive shots to the back).

The zeta metroids are bastards, plain and simple. Before I did speed runs, I had no idea about the cheezing strategies Radix and Brightstar used, so my runs usually consisted of trying to "lock" them... getting them into an unbreakable position by having them circle you, and ending up low enough to fire your missile and have him stick. Well, the 1st and 3rd have their own special cheezing tricks which work most of the time (1st works practically 95% of the time, 3rd works ~%50-%70, depending on how good your timing is). The only real test of skill is the 2nd zeta.

For him, I decided the best way to fight him was initially slow him down with the well-placed missile, and hope he didn't shoot his fireball when he came down, allowing me to stick him low enough to the ground to lock him. But, that only happens around 10% of the time, so "Plan B" is necessary -- the tunnel trick. If you run away from a zeta, they'll follow you by rising up slightly, then descending quickly as they come closer, getting them to the perfect position, and usually firing their fireball a bit too early to hit you. I usually don't do this too often though, because it's tricky to actually get back to the tunnel quickly without it shooting you at least twice.

I'm considering putting together a full strategy page for this kind of stuff. Might be interesting for those few. :)

[quote="Zeke"]On a slight tangent, ever noticed how similar an Omega Metroid fight is to fighting Nightmare from Fusion?  The Omega will spend extended periods just hanging in the air, and when it does move, it goes around in circles for an indefinite period trying to ram you.  (Too bad Nightmare isn't extra-vulnerable from behind....)[/quote]

Yes! That's the first thing I noticed when I fought Nightmare, so from then on it was pretty easy since I already knew how to control the Omegas' movement. :D

And about the extra-vulnerable from behind thing, truthfully I had no idea about that until [i]after[/i] I had recorded my 100% run. I had always assumed they took some random amount between 20 and 30, instead of the 40 w/ 3x on back (facts which I of course abuse beyond belief now... a perfect omega fight should have 4 initial "front" missiles, then 12 successive shots to the back).

The zeta metroids are bastards, plain and simple. Before I did speed runs, I had no idea about the cheezing strategies Radix and Brightstar used, so my runs usually consisted of trying to "lock" them... getting them into an unbreakable position by having them circle you, and ending up low enough to fire your missile and have him stick. Well, the 1st and 3rd have their own special cheezing tricks which work most of the time (1st works practically 95% of the time, 3rd works ~%50-%70, depending on how good your timing is). The only real test of skill is the 2nd zeta.

For him, I decided the best way to fight him was initially slow him down with the well-placed missile, and [i]hope[/i] he didn't shoot his fireball when he came down, allowing me to stick him low enough to the ground to lock him. But, that only happens around 10% of the time, so "Plan B" is necessary -- the tunnel trick. If you run away from a zeta, they'll follow you by rising up slightly, then descending quickly as they come closer, getting them to the perfect position, and usually firing their fireball a bit too early to hit you. I usually don't do this too often though, because it's tricky to actually get back to the tunnel quickly without it shooting you at least twice.

I'm considering putting together a full strategy page for this kind of stuff. Might be interesting for those few. :)

Brightstar

2005-01-29 07:54:57 pm

Any plans to finish your 3 item run?

carlmmii

2005-01-29 08:25:18 pm

Eventually. I've got lots of other stuff bearing down my back right now though... like studying.

I'll try my luck again tonight though.

Zeke

2005-02-01 06:41:08 pm

Time bomb set get out fast!

Woot! 1:16, baby! (Still going by the game clock, though.) The only change I made this time was to pick up one less missile tank.

carlmmii

2005-02-01 07:23:07 pm

That's awesome! Not too far now. :D

Which route are you following for missile pickups? There might be a few more things you could skip.

Also, don't forget that little things you do while running around build up. Remember that the longer you're in the air, it's less time spent running at a faster speed. Same with rolling, but to a lesser extent.