Speed Running

2004-11-27 11:07:29 pm

Hmm 18 days with no posts in this thread... still running?
I forgot all about your technical problem so I haven't tried to look into it... perhaps tomorrow. Did you try any% some more or are you only working on 3-item? If not did you want that one run posted? And for a laugh, take a lot at this gamefaqs thread

carlmmii

2004-11-27 11:26:44 pm

Not trying on any% lately, 3 item's been put on hold for a bit until I can convince myself to put down echoes for a bit. Currently I'm stuck trying to kill the 3 gamma metroids in a row.

I just managed to fix my video a few hours ago actually. Convinced my friend to let me borrow his computer for a bit. Works perfect now.

The run's definitely in the back of my mind right now. It's just mustering enough will to swap out echoes for a bit. :(

Radix

2004-12-04 01:52:16 am

Just for the record, I tried a save state any% run to see how low it could go on the game's timer on a single-segment run. I would save state at the start of a room or battle, and if it didn't get 99%+ perfectly, i'd load. That meant close to 100 battles on a few of the more annoying omega metroids, trying to do them with only 10 missiles used and minimal health loss to avoid forcing refills. I screwed up once and had to take 5 seconds to get a refill though because I forgot about those 2 blocks you have to use missiles on. I also needlessly got a 3rd tank... probably 25 seconds of mistakes there. The time at the end? 0:59. WORSE than my segmented run on sda full of little mistakes, because of the 8 saves I did that chopped off the seconds. Looking in VBA's rom memory (thanks bladegash) we can see that the seconds was actually very high, so getting 0:58 would be rather difficult.

carlmmii

2004-12-05 05:16:38 pm

Yeah, I know that story. However, I think the game's timer might be a little fast. I don't think it actually counts to the full 60 for each minute. I could be wrong, but it's something to look into.

I just finished echoes, so I'll be back to recording soon.

carlmmii

2004-12-05 11:17:32 pm

Update: I finally managed to kill those 3 gammas under the 3rd ruins in one go with 30 missiles, so I'm on the home stretch from here on out. All I've gotta do is plan out the next section.

Radix

2004-12-06 12:20:07 am

Nice work! BTW I watched your "bad" any% from a few pages ago... and you got 0:58 at the end! You did better than my save state run Shocked

You've got a lot of minor mistakes... any real run will, and while I did make a few that I didn't feel like correcting it certainly wasn't many. There was a couple minor things you did that I didn't. The big difference was that I got ice at the start and never touched another beam... I thought that'd be the best thing to do for a save state run; perhaps not. I also didn't take the ~10 seconds to pick up either energy or missile refill after the acid trip. Skipping the energy was probably dumb since then I couldn't roll through all the acid rooms up ahead. Skipping the missile meant I had to force 6 refills out of things before I reached the omega lair... not something you could do on a real run, but probably saved me a few seconds.

As for your comment about the clock not being a real minute, that could be tested by running VBA and monitoring the minute value in memory and comparing to real time. Of course that test relies on vba accurately emulating the speed of games... not something it's very good at.

Nice work! BTW I watched your "bad" any% from a few pages ago... and you got 0:58 at the end! You did better than my save state run  :shock:   You've got a lot of minor mistakes... any real run will, and while I did make a few that I didn't feel like correcting it certainly wasn't many.  There was a couple minor things you did that I didn't.  The big difference was that I got ice at the start and never touched another beam... I thought that'd be the best thing to do for a save state run; perhaps not.  I also didn't take the ~10 seconds to pick up either energy or missile refill after the acid trip.  Skipping the energy was probably dumb since then I couldn't roll through all the acid rooms up ahead.  Skipping the missile meant I had to force 6 refills out of things before I reached the omega lair... not something you could do on a real run, but probably saved me a few seconds.

As for your comment about the clock not being a real minute, that could be tested by running VBA and monitoring the minute value in memory and comparing to real time.  Of course that test relies on vba accurately emulating the speed of games... not something it's very good at.

carlmmii

2004-12-06 12:29:04 am

Right, but if you force it at a set framerate by recording it to video with no frameskip, there's no errors (so long as you convert it from the 30 fps it records at to 29.97). But, seeing as I'm back on my mac, I don't have the ability to do that.

Here's the video of the last section. It's sloppy, sure. But I don't really care at this point, since I MADE IT OUT ALIVE!!! Twisted Evil

I think this has turned into a "set the route for a speed run, but don't worry too much about speed" type of thing.

If I had been going for true speed, I would have probably restarted right when I got hit by the 2nd gamma, and if not there, definitely after I fell down. But, who cares at this point?

Edit: wait, you were going by the game's 59 minute clock? Check back a few pages, I already ran one for that getting 56 minutes and 17-21 seconds at the end.

The problem with the game's time though is that somehow it's always off by a few minutes (displays fast of course), so it's always going to depend on what route you take (I think it doesn't count the time in between rooms). I dunno. It's something else to test.

Right, but if you force it at a set framerate by recording it to video with no frameskip, there's no errors (so long as you convert it from the 30 fps it records at to 29.97). But, seeing as I'm back on my mac, I don't have the ability to do that.

[url=http://carlmmii.metroid2002.com/carlmmii_metroidii_3item_9.avi]Here's the video of the last section[/url]. It's sloppy, sure. But I don't really care at this point, since [b]I MADE IT OUT ALIVE!!![/b] :twisted: I think this has turned into a "set the route for a speed run, but don't worry too much about speed" type of thing.

If I had been going for true speed, I would have probably restarted right when I got hit by the 2nd gamma, and if not there, definitely after I fell down. But, who cares at this point?

[b]Edit:[/b] wait, you were going by the [b]game[/b]'s 59 minute clock? Check back a few pages, I already ran one for that getting 56 minutes and 17-21 seconds at the end.

The problem with the game's time though is that somehow it's always off by a few minutes (displays fast of course), so it's always going to depend on what route you take (I [i]think[/i] it doesn't count the time in between rooms). I dunno. It's something else to test.

carlmmii

2004-12-08 12:04:09 am

Alright. Since I'm pretty sure I'm going to be stuck here for quite a while, I may as well post my progress.

I just recorded the next semi-decent segment, 60% longer than any of the other segments (15 minutes, since you can't do the acid diving). It's not that it's hard, it's just that it has all those octopods, and deceivingly simple jumps that I wanted to show who was boss. :p (I think they won though)

Oh well... TIME DOESN'T MATTER! *slaps self*

Now, on to business. Ruins 4.

My proposed route is as follows: I've got full health and 27 missiles at the save point. I'll be going up the left shaft to get both the top-left gamma and upper gammas, taking probably all the missiles on a bad run (I did not want the segment to depend on a perfect zeta fight, followed by a perfect gamma fight, with enough health to last 3 more fights).

After the top gamma, I drop down and get the missile refuel. I doubt I'd be able to refill my health with the floaters, since their target is so small, but it's something I'll find out.

Anyway, after that, I take out the zeta above it (small bomb jump, compared to doing it the entire way up for the gamma), and come back for another refill.

After that, I pull a fancy morph drop, unmorph-jump to double bump-jump (15 health I think, not bad really), and bomb my way up to the alcove gamma. Except, this is where I'm really not liking things since to complete the segment successfully, I'd have to kill it perfectly, refill, drop down to get the zeta below, diagonally bomb jump back to the missile refuel for the final zeta, then save. The zeta I know I can kill perfectly nearly every time because of the trick, but it's the gamma I'm not liking much.

Meh. After thinking about it, I think I'll just keep that in mind for a speed run. This time, I'll try save right after the gamma fight, and climb my way back to the missile refuel via the save point twice for the remaining zetas.

Alright. Since I'm pretty sure I'm going to be stuck here for quite a while, I may as well post my progress.

I just recorded the next semi-decent segment, 60% longer than any of the other segments (15 minutes, since you can't do the acid diving). It's not that it's hard, it's just that it has all those octopods, and deceivingly simple jumps that I wanted to show who was boss. :p (I think they won though)

Oh well... TIME DOESN'T MATTER! *slaps self*

Now, on to business. Ruins 4.

My proposed route is as follows: I've got full health and 27 missiles at the save point. I'll be going up the left shaft to get both the top-left gamma and upper gammas, taking probably all the missiles on a bad run (I did [i]not[/i] want the segment to depend on a perfect zeta fight, [i]followed[/i] by a perfect gamma fight, with enough health to last 3 more fights).

After the top gamma, I drop down and get the missile refuel. I doubt I'd be able to refill my health with the floaters, since their target is so small, but it's something I'll find out.

Anyway, after that, I take out the zeta above it (small bomb jump, compared to doing it the entire way up for the gamma), and come back for another refill.

After [i]that[/i], I pull a fancy morph drop, unmorph-jump to double bump-jump (15 health I think, not bad really), and bomb my way up to the alcove gamma. Except, this is where I'm really not liking things since to complete the segment successfully, I'd have to kill it perfectly, refill, drop down to get the zeta below, [b]diagonally bomb jump[/b] back to the missile refuel for the final zeta, then save. The zeta I know I can kill perfectly nearly every time because of the trick, but it's the gamma I'm not liking much.

Meh. After thinking about it, I think I'll just keep that in mind for a speed run. This time, I'll try save right after the gamma fight, and climb my way back to the missile refuel via the save point twice for the remaining zetas.

carlmmii

2004-12-20 02:16:18 am

Made some progress today, so this section should be done tomorrow. Most of the time was spent just planning things out, making sure of what I can and can't do (mostly aerial stuffs, and it's a long fall in that area). As a result, I can bomb jump like a pro now, and diagonal bomb jumping is a synch! Also, I found an easy dbj method from the cave entrance of the right-most zeta metroid to a side-floater on the left-hand side. Just a quick double diagonal bomb jump from the ledge gives you enough distance to it, and you just freeze it from the top, and start an infinite diagonal bomb jump to the wall, minimizing the time spent keeping the dbj going.

Anyway, here's the fruits of my labor so far. Sure, not the greatest. Nothing is. But it's done. :)

Next up, the 2 zetas. I've actually found that the upper one is easier to fight in this type of run than the 2nd, due to the way I go at it. If you aim the initial missile well enough, it will cause the zeta to recoil just long enough for you to fall to the ground, and guide it so that it comes right in front of you without hitting you with its fireball. I can do this about half the time, and even without it, the technique for forcing him into that position is fairly easy. Just have to lead him out forward, then half way down, move behind him, shooting him with the missile just when he's at your level.

So, plan of attack: big loop up and around to missile refuel, to higher zeta, to missile refuel, to lower zeta, [to health refill depending... < 50 +E and I'm taking it], dbj to missile refuel, to save point. Then, it's a quick matter of taking out the last zeta perfectly thanks to how close it is to the save point. :)

Oh, and I managed to find some useless glitches along the way. :P

http://carlmmii.metroid2002.com/jump_stuck_glitch1.avi
http://carlmmii.metroid2002.com/jump_stuck_glitch2.avi

The first one happens all the time as long as you just hold the jump button. Might be helpful if the gamma above were to be nice and stay right there, but that never happens, and the hit would most likely knock you down too much to recover. The second one was a fluke I was never able to reproduce... and that happened the second time I tried it... so, these are practically useless in an actual game situation. :x

Made some progress today, so this section should be done tomorrow. Most of the time was spent just planning things out, making sure of what I can and can't do (mostly aerial stuffs, and it's a long fall in that area). As a result, I can bomb jump like a pro now, and diagonal bomb jumping is a synch! Also, I found an easy dbj method from the cave entrance of the right-most zeta metroid to a side-floater on the left-hand side. Just a quick double diagonal bomb jump from the ledge gives you enough distance to it, and you just freeze it from the top, and start an infinite diagonal bomb jump to the wall, minimizing the time spent keeping the dbj going.

Anyway, [url=http://carlmmii.metroid2002.com/carlmmii_metroidii_3item_11.avi]here's the fruits of my labor so far[/url]. Sure, not the greatest. Nothing is. But it's done. :)

Next up, the 2 zetas. I've actually found that the upper one is [i]easier[/i] to fight in this type of run than the 2nd, due to the way I go at it. If you aim the initial missile well enough, it will cause the zeta to recoil just long enough for you to fall to the ground, and guide it so that it comes right in front of you without hitting you with its fireball. I can do this about half the time, and even without it, the technique for forcing him into that position is fairly easy. Just have to lead him out forward, then half way down, move behind him, shooting him with the missile just when he's at your level.

So, plan of attack: big loop up and around to missile refuel, to higher zeta, to missile refuel, to lower zeta, [to health refill depending... < 50 +E and I'm taking it], dbj to missile refuel, to save point. Then, it's a quick matter of taking out the last zeta perfectly thanks to how close it is to the save point. :)

Oh, and I managed to find some useless glitches along the way. :P

http://carlmmii.metroid2002.com/jump_stuck_glitch1.avi
http://carlmmii.metroid2002.com/jump_stuck_glitch2.avi

The first one happens all the time as long as you just hold the jump button. [i]Might[/i] be helpful if the gamma above were to be nice and stay right there, but that never happens, and the hit would most likely knock you down too much to recover. The second one was a fluke I was never able to reproduce... and that happened the second time I tried it... so, these are practically useless in an actual game situation. :x

Brightstar

2004-12-21 03:44:21 am

Aside from getting on top of the platform easier, ya. But hey, you're doin a great job. You've got more patience than I do. Keep going.

carlmmii

2004-12-27 04:13:11 pm

Thanks. :)

Put together a quick page with comments on each section, so that I might convince myself to progress with it more.

I attempted it a few nights ago, and lo and behold... first try, I manage to kill both zetas flawlessly, but screw up the dbj because I forgot to start it as an ibj. Evil or Very Mad

At least I know the problem is my concentration though, not skill.

nate

2004-12-27 07:58:28 pm

very cool page. makes me really happy to be able to offer space to people.

carlmmii

2005-01-08 09:13:13 pm

Just so it looks like I'm not dead or something, here's my problem right now:

http://carlmmii.metroid2002.com/12_end_screwup.avi

I can't figure out a way to avoid that damn thing, and it's kinda iffy if I can actually get the freeze timing right after getting lucky with the *first* one. I really don't want to have to do a crappy "get missiles and refill health only" segment, and I know this is possible. Maybe if I slow down the bombs until it passes... I just wish I could practice that part on its own easily.

At least all this time let me practice the start section

http://carlmmii.metroid2002.com/12_speed_start.avi

I'm not actually doing the bump jumps, but this is the absolute fastest way to clear that chute with 3 items. I never thought double-bombs had a use until now.

nate

2005-01-08 10:03:00 pm

you can't freeze him and land on him like you tried to do?

and beginning of the segment looks just spectacular. i highly anticipate this run.

carlmmii

2005-01-08 10:11:30 pm

The problem is that they have a very small target area, and their movement is too erratic. I don't know how accurately I can shoot it, especially if I'm doing this after a long beginning. Freezing the first one like I did there was a fluke because of how long I waited to actually shoot. 1/3 chance...

carlmmii

2005-01-09 10:20:54 am

Looks like that occurrence was a fluke as well. Seems like somehow, but exact location of my bomb jumping caused some kind of memory dump with that flier and caused it to change direction mid-flight.

Didn't happen this time, and that was all I needed.

http://carlmmii.metroid2002.com/carlmmii_metroidii_3item_12.avi

More comments on the page.

carlmmii

2005-01-09 04:44:33 pm

Well, normally I wouldn't double post so soon, but I made some real progress in the past few hours, all commented on my page.

The only section I haven't completed now is the final section -- last 2 metroids + queen fight + escape. Right now, I'm not really sure how to defeat the queen with limited maneuverability and health. I haven't found a way to avoid her 3 fuzz balls, and it's purely random when she opens her mouth (except for the 1st time always being closed). I haven't attempted it many times yet though, since I only just completed the last section, after deciding to split up the final area into 2 segments for sanity's sake.

I think if I can't find a way to avoid the fuzz balls by jumping/rolling, I'll have to use missiles, making for a very interesting fight.

I'm not even sure how much health I've got to spare with how much damage the stomach does.

Of course, when I do defeat the queen, the escape part is going to look butt-ugly, since I can't practice it at all, unless I go through the game again picking up e-tanks and missile expansions just for practice-sake. Which I think I'll do now that I think about it, since this should get frustrating.

Oh, and I also found another neat glitch. If you jump at the exact same time as you land, you gain about a 1/4 block of height, just enough to jump 4.5 blocks. It seems to work best when you do a spin jump first. Not very useful in most situations, but could possibly be used to avoid bomb jumping at very specific locations.

Well, normally I wouldn't double post so soon, but I made some real progress in the past few hours, all commented on [url=http://carlmmii.metroid2002.com/]my page[/url].

The only section I haven't completed now is the final section -- last 2 metroids + queen fight + escape. Right now, I'm not really sure how to defeat the queen with limited maneuverability and health. I haven't found a way to avoid her 3 fuzz balls, and it's purely random when she opens her mouth (except for the 1st time always being closed). I haven't attempted it many times yet though, since I only just completed the last section, after deciding to split up the final area into 2 segments for sanity's sake.

I think if I can't find a way to avoid the fuzz balls by jumping/rolling, I'll have to use missiles, making for a very interesting fight.

I'm not even sure how much health I've got to spare with how much damage the stomach does.

Of course, when I do defeat the queen, the escape part is going to look butt-ugly, since I can't practice it at all, unless I go through the game again picking up e-tanks and missile expansions just for practice-sake. Which I think I'll do now that I think about it, since this should get frustrating.

Oh, and I also found another neat glitch. If you jump at the exact same time as you land, you gain about a 1/4 block of height, just enough to jump 4.5 blocks. It seems to work best when you do a spin jump first. Not very useful in most situations, but could possibly be used to avoid bomb jumping at very specific locations.

carlmmii

2005-01-11 12:46:42 pm

Got to thinking today. The spider ball throw is incredibly easy to perform, and only requires the addition of the spring ball to the any% route. It cuts time in half for some of the longer jumps (like ruins 3, which has both back to back). It's not too far out of the way, so I'm wondering if there'd be any gain in picking up the spring ball for time.

The ruins 2 route would just have to be tweaked so that it goes varia -> tunnel metroids -> high jump -> alcove metroid -> spring ball -> leave, which doesn't really hurt time-wise.

edit: tried it out, and that route is only 20 seconds slower than the usual route, but it leaves out the quick missile on the way to the varia. I'll try running this tonight in a dual-segment just to break the hour barrier.

bushwacker

2005-01-13 06:56:41 pm

When I first did the 3-item run (I'm pretty sure I was the first person to ever do it, this would have been over a year ago I think), getting past the Queen's fireballs was a huge issue to get past. Eventually I found a perfect way to shoot them with missiles, without being hit...

I don't remember the method exactly, but I think it went something like this: stand against the right wall, facing left. You must be completely against the wall, as in, you would have had to just tap left very lightly to turn around without actually moving left. When she shoots the fireballs, you missile the first one, crouch and missile the second one, and the third one misses you.

I haven't done it in ages, but that seems to be what I remember. Thirty missiles is more than enough to do this, and health is not an issue at all. Hope this helps, carlmmii :D

And since this is the "speed run" topic, I'll give a shout-out to the 1:04 single-segment I did like a week ago. That's the what ending timer said, anyway Rolling Eyes

When I first did the 3-item run (I'm pretty sure I was the first person to ever do it, this would have been over a year ago I think), getting past the Queen's fireballs was a huge issue to get past. Eventually I found a perfect way to shoot them with missiles, without being hit...

I don't remember the method exactly, but I think it went something like this: stand against the right wall, facing left. You must be completely against the wall, as in, you would have had to just tap left very lightly to turn around without actually moving left. When she shoots the fireballs, you missile the first one, crouch and missile the second one, and the third one misses you.

I haven't done it in ages, but that seems to be what I remember. Thirty missiles is more than enough to do this, and health is not an issue at all. Hope this helps, carlmmii  :D

And since this is the "speed run" topic, I'll give a shout-out to the 1:04 single-segment I did like a week ago. That's the what ending timer said, anyway  :roll:

carlmmii

2005-01-13 08:18:49 pm

Trust me, you've got no idea how much that helps. That's the key to this entire thing. Thanks a bunch! :D

Btw, don't trust the game timer, even with single segment runs. It's normally off by 3-4 minutes (says it took less time than it actually did). :(

Radix

2005-01-13 08:30:53 pm

the game's timer stops during item jingles and fade transitions... but even then I think it's still fast.

Glad to see you're at the end carl, hope the queen doesn't prove too much trouble!

carlmmii

2005-01-14 12:12:46 am

Same here. I did some calculating and came to the conclusion that the only way to defeat her is to have a perfect fight energy-wise. The 5 bomb sessions take 170 health, leaving only 29 health to spare. Considering the queen's head does 40 damage on its own, this isn't looking nice.

Managed to figure out what you meant LeCoureur for the strategy. Much easier than I thought it would be, thanks!

Now it's just a matter of getting *very* lucky, with enough patience for the bomb jumping.

I think I may actually complete a sub-hour game before my luck comes. :p

bushwacker

2005-01-14 06:50:51 pm

Haha, just did a "1:01" single-segment. Only a couple instances of getting disoriented for 10 or more seconds, and everything else went pretty damn smoothly. There was a huge close call though, I went to fight the Gamma in the fourth ruins (the one with the energy refill) with only like 40 energy. I walked away with 6 left, oh man was I sweating, and so far into the run too...

I'd like some advice from anyone who wants to offer, though: how is the screw attack best handled? I've been getting it, but I don't know if I should. All I really use it for is to conserve energy during the Omega fights, and to take out the Queen's fireballs quickly. I'm wondering if it could be skipped without any significant time loss?

Radix

2005-01-14 07:48:58 pm

I didn't get it in my run...

carlmmii

2005-01-15 12:43:44 am

Skip it, it's useless. When fighting omegas, you can force them back to waiting by just running to the right the first time. If you can keep them idle by timing the missiles correctly, you can actually send all 13/14 into its back in one session. If you mess up the timing, it's just one quick jump around them.

Even if you take time being extra careful to avoid getting hit, it's nothing compared to the elaborate measures required to get the screw attack in the first place.

And the queen will only shoot her fireballs 4 times normally if you use the stomach-bombing method, and extra missiles for good measure. You can just let them hit you... 3 e-tanks is plenty for the queen fight with varia.