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Cpadolf
2007-10-31 02:39:33 pm
Almost happy
Well I know of no missile pack that could be collected, I actually know little of this hack except for parts where I have tested stuff, but as I said he would probably do best to collect charge before Maridia anyway since he will definitely need it for LN anyway.

About his missile stock for the later parts of the hack I think he would do best to just collect the ones really close to all the E-tanks Supers and PB's he will collect, each pack saves him a little time (and health) on ridley but not enough to take a long time to get out of the way.
Lance Uppercut
2007-10-31 03:26:17 pm
But as PJMan said, it would be possible to leave the charge beam alone until after Draygon and leave Maridia via upper route after collecting Plasma.

I say collecting the super missiles is a good choice because they add up to the later amount and Wrecked Ship will not be visited again because it is too time-consuming.

Missiles should not be hunted, just like you said. Charged Plasma is a good choice in its place when thinking about casual enemies or Ridley.

Oh, and if/when visiting gauntlet (should be quite fast with speed booster anyway), I absolutely want that both of those two missile packs at the bottom are collected (at the same time)  :)
Tonski
2007-10-31 03:40:21 pm
I want one million euros but that ain't gonna happen.

You're getting ahead of things, I haven't even reached Norfair main street yet after Crocomire I'm currently TASing there.

Honestly thinking I'd wanna screw the WS supers, as I could just take a right on the WS main street and hit Maridia, but this has to be thought through many times..

Lance:
I could add that to my TAS just for you. ;)
Kriole
2007-10-31 05:12:57 pm
Meri Kurisumasu! ^_^
Please keep in mind that I have not played this hack before; first time I played it I stopped just after Phantoon, claiming that I have found a sequence break. And while I was at that, I thought why not record it (though it turned out to be nothing).

At the end of the first room I thought I'd try frame-advance for the first time (noticable by the fact that I shouldershudd only every 3rd frame in the beginning, in the corridor before ceres-Ridley I start with every 2nd frame). So yes, I only play it to progress, with the sequence break in mind I was obsessed with time to record, not ingame time.
Hell, when I tuned down to 24% speed and killed Kraid it was only 4-5 seconds slower than my frame-advance kill.

And yes, I know it is very stupid to TAS a game you have no experience whatsoever in (my second SM TAS, first frame-advance attempt).

Just playing the hack to see what I can do in my "real" run.
Lance Uppercut
2007-10-31 07:01:46 pm
What sequence break did you find after Phantoon?

Dont get discouraged, even though it is not perfect, it is still very enjoyable to watch. I admit that reviewing those clips have been a little harsh, maybe we would like to cut back on it a little now  =)

Do you have a complete route planned out for the rest of the gameplay?
Kriole
2007-10-31 07:26:39 pm
Meri Kurisumasu! ^_^
I had forgotten that you needed to kill kraid to get spazer and those E-tanks. If not, then I would have gone for croc and super missiles. Stupid mistake ;/ (It was after Phantoon I realised it might exist, not that the actual sequence break is after the Phantoon kill).

There is no need to cut back, though doing it in a more gentle matter.    The overall attitude feels very unprofessional and condescending. However, I do enjoy everyone pointing out what I could/should improve.

No, I do not have a planned out route, since this TAS is solely for exploration matters. I'm using your playthrough as a guidance.

Quick question, is space jump needed? Kinda thought of a new trick if you do need it.
Lance Uppercut
2007-10-31 07:41:02 pm
There is always a choice of using pause abuse to go straight to Crocomire without getting any e-tanks, but I think that is not worth it. Anyone else want to comment on that? It sounds like a nice sequence breaker  :D

I cant see any part where the Space Jump is absolutely necessary, but it is recommended to take since obtaining it with plasma does not consume that much time and it is a great help and timesaver with the rest of the game. There is much to play after Maridia so it might be wise to get... You have to go back to Norfaif anyway to get the Speed Booster so you will pass near it anyway.

I am curious, what is the trick?  :)
Kriole
2007-10-31 07:53:05 pm
Meri Kurisumasu! ^_^
Those mobs in the space jump room... what are they called... nomi? I thought instead of running inside and going "OMG EAT PLASMA" I'd charge a quick charge on the bridge leading to kraid's lair and releasing it onto them. I'm not 100% sure if the shinespark damages them, but the speed boost does so I guess it should work.
Lance Uppercut
2007-10-31 07:57:23 pm
That is pure gold! Never would have thought of that. Getting Space Jump might be even faster now.  :)
Cpadolf
2007-10-31 08:01:19 pm
Almost happy
I guess that using pause abuse to get to croc before kraid might be faster, mostly because kraid with supers will go 10000 times faster, but I strongly recommend against doing so because let's face it, extended pause abuse is not very pleasant to look at.
Fano7
2007-10-31 08:24:39 pm
Every Bit Counts
Yeah. I've done a run with it. Not pretty.
Tonski
2007-11-01 09:14:48 am
That's a brilliant idea, nice to see you here Kriole. :) Your run is very good, you perform many very unique strats in many rooms but I think it can be seen in lack of optimization. I still find it enjoying to check your WIPs, you're doing a good job.

But whatever that shinespark idea to hurt Beetoms regarding obtaining the Space Jump is great. I wonder if anyone knows will shinespark hurt Beetoms? I think I'll go and test it right now...

Welcome on M2K2.
Cpadolf
2007-11-01 10:15:56 am
Almost happy
Nice time saver, great idea kriole.
attachment:
QuickSpacejump.smv
P.JMan
2007-11-01 11:34:33 am
I like Big Butts and I can not lie
I advise you watch my 100% playthrough if you haven't already (I did actually use the pause screen abuse after killing Ridley, I also made this movie a few days before Kejardon even mentioned the pause abuse at tasvideos)
Saturn
2007-11-01 01:04:02 pm
Welcome at M2k2 Kriole, it's great to see you here.

The shinespark technique to kill the drainer is a brilliant idea, and already your 2nd strike after the Kraid entrance walljump! I think even if you have Plasma at this point, it would still be slightly faster to use it, since it kills all of them in one hit.

Also I'm highly impressed how well and especially fast you progress on a run you have never done before, not to mention in such a early TASing state. Even though your optimization level is not a moozooh-one, it's still far above the average, and definitely much better than I expected first. Also I think your route is a interesting one. Getting the WS Super allows to skip the Charge Beam until Ridley. Now you can get it almost without major detours on the way to green Brinstar break-in after getting the Speed Booster. I really hope that Tonski skips the WS Super though, so we can see the time differences between this 2 routes. It seems to be closer than expected at first.
Tonski
2007-11-01 02:36:21 pm
*deleted*
Saturn
2007-11-01 03:33:33 pm
Never did that, and wonder where you get such weird thoughts. I enjoy both of your TASes man. Your WIP updates are just not as frequently as Krioles (due to better optimization), so I obviously can only comment on his ones so far, which, as you know yourself, are really good at this fast progress.

Regarding your route, do you really think skipping the WS Super would be slower? I don't say it would be much faster, but it would at least be same fast at the end. Getting early Charge Beam is still faster than waiting ~1 minute for the Chozo Statue to slowly carry you through a large room, including the general detour. Only slowdowns would be boss fights, but with the TAS benefits of luck manipulatuion etc. I'm sure it wouldn't be much of a delay. It would also be better for comparisons sake, to get a general picture of both routes for a eventually future, more optimized TAS. It's up to you of course, and I'm looking forward for your run no matter what route you take. I'm just pointing the benefits of the other route.
Lance Uppercut
2007-11-01 04:30:17 pm
When thinking about Saturns words and the possible route, I am gonna have to agree that skipping that super and getting Charge Beam "early" would be a good idea, since you would have to detour to it anyway unless you are going to exit Maridia from upper exit. How many e-tanks would be sufficient for the Speed Booster hells run? You might as well exit Maridia from the bottom and proceed straight into getting the Speed Booster. You can get the x-ray e-tank on your way to Brinstar, actually obtaining that one with SB is faster too! I think it is okay to use the pause-abuse a little if you are short of energy at the end of that SB route.


About praising Kriole... what Saturn said, Kriole has invented a few nice things and he gets his kudos for that. I dont recall anyone said your WIPs were not magnificent. Your work is just as appreciated here, dont worry about it.
I think this one tells everything about it, unless that is meant as courtesy:
Quote from Tonski:
I feel like a failed uncreative TASer beside you.



Also I find this one quite funny, is your subconscious playing tricks or do you have something else in your mind?

Quote from Lance Uppercut:
That is pure gold! Never would have thought of that. Getting Space Jump might be even faster now.  :)

Quote from Tonski:
As I said that timesaver is just 100% pure gold, brilliant Kriole.


I also dont like to be called "someone" when I have posted just before the latest post. I hope you are not mad about what I said in Finmetroid and expressing yourself here and this way. I am just not the kind of guy to master all the finest tricks in this game and I have to live my life with that. Me and MASTER-88 are inferior in this game, you dont have to remind us about that.
Kriole
2007-11-01 05:06:41 pm
Meri Kurisumasu! ^_^
Quote from Tonski:
Hey Kriole here's a tip: I see you do too many walljumps when jumping up on the same wall, but are you aware that the time that you push towards the wall between walljumps is 11 frames? Just to let you know, I think this is the way to do a optimal walljump.


I'll put that number on my mind, thank you very much.

Quote from Tonski:
Saturn:
May I ask something? Assuming me and Kriole basically have the same starting point (both making first frame advance using TAS ever) and we're making our TASes at about the same level except I optimize more on boss fights and such, how come you're always praising Kriole like god?


I fear this statement is a little overkill. He is just commenting my good/fast progress and my above the average skill *glowbasking*. Your run is way better than mine. And as Saturn said; he has seen more from my run than he has seen from yours.
Tonski
2007-11-02 08:42:25 am
Ok my last post went like hell and in this one I have a lot to say:

Firstly, ignore the thing about Kriole I was just feeling dizzy and stuff like that. Had a long day and so on, I was foolish and apologize deeply for any inconvenience in that post. Really.

Saturn:
I think skipping it would be slower, since you have to go from Maridia tube after PBs all the way to get charge beam only to manage in boss fights right? Not only that backtrack, missing 5 more supers makes the bosses automatically slower I think... I might skip the pack, but as I said I haven't decided yet. I've done decent boss fights so far but I think Phantoon and Draygon will pwn me badly.

Lance's quote 1:
CPadolf has also started kind of a SM:I TAS, which he's working on slowly. This kinda took my motivation down for some time because you all know that his TAS will be faster than both mine and Kriole's and most probably it'll be done sooner than me. Later I started thinking and decided not to care about it, I'm going to finish my TAS anyway. :P As I said I was kinda feeling strange during posting my last post, not sure what caused it. Maybe my subconcius is/was playing tricks.

Lance Uppercut:
I am most certainly not mad at you about anything! That "someone" I said was only because I didn't read the posters before made my post and barely quickly just read who had made new interesting ideas regarding this hack, and I was too lazy to check who wrote that. But my main point is that I'm not mad about anything and if I made you feel so, sorry.

Plus, I find it kinda funny that you just not long time a go made a 40 SS run and call yourself inferior in this game. Did you mean it compared to me? *holds 42min SS flag* :) Your time is 2 mins better.

Altogether I think I just might skip the SM pack, we'll see. I'm trying to progress at constantly moving forward, meaning I TAS like 1 room each day, maybe some day less, some day a lot more.

Longest post ever...  :-#
Lance Uppercut
2007-11-02 09:24:42 am
I may have been a little too hard in my post too, but I think it is better to speak ones mind before things get out of control. Thanks for clearing everything out.

The only question mark I see in this super missile / charge beam dilemma is Botwoon, because there is no way to refill your missiles during the fight. What is the amount of missiles that is enough again? Draygon might go quite well even with 10 super missiles. That fight can be luck manipulated to some extent.
Cpadolf
2007-11-02 09:39:25 am
Almost happy
Tonski:

Although proceeding quite quickly with it right now (Green brinstar elevator) I will slow down later, both because of time issues and I also think I will wait to do parts until both you and kriole have done them, to not make the same mistakes, not miss anything you do and to get a overall better look at what kind of ammo/health management will be needed.

Lance:

5 Super and 25 missiles/10 Super ad 10 missiles. He has 4000hp super do 300 and missiles do 100. Also from what I know it's not very common to get supers from draygons gunk attack, I have never tested it in frame advance though. But even so IIRC he has a mighty 10000 hp so 15 Supers will definitely come to use in that fight as well.
Kriole
2007-11-02 09:48:35 am
Meri Kurisumasu! ^_^
Quote from Lance Uppercut:
What is the amount of missiles that is enough again?


I'm quite certain someone (CPadolf?) said 10 missiles and 10 super missiles. EDIT: Unecesarry statement. My bad :(
Do PB's damage botwoon? And if there is a way to collect early plasma then you could probably use the plasma PB combo, I dunno if this is possible. I have tried a little and I need like 2-3 pixels extra height to reach the plasma beam. I might spend a little more time to try this, unless it is totally impossible. Any ideas are appreciated.

I will anticipate CPadolf's run to see what speedtricks he will come up with, though the fact that it will be faster than both mine and Tonski's still stands.
Lance Uppercut
2007-11-02 10:09:24 am
Early Plasma sounds impossible, but I dont have any information about that, as I have not even tried that one. Interesting...

Then what about Spazer shield against Botwoon? PJMan did this in his run and it seemed quite effective. I wonder how much damage that one does.

Then again, to use the PB shield, you would need the Charge Beam, so...
Kriole
2007-11-02 10:28:56 am
Meri Kurisumasu! ^_^
Quote from Lance Uppercut:
Then again, to use the PB shield, you would need the Charge Beam, so...


Hmm... the charge detour from the point where I am is small, if the super missile gate is still open after entering the charge beam room. And if I get charge beam now, then I could exit through the lower maridian exit and go directly into Norfair. Firstly I need to check if the early plasma is possible. I will try it later and come back.