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Cpadolf
2007-11-02 10:44:58 am
Almost happy
Early plasma must be impossible... Also the SM gate will close after you so getting charge is a bad idea, you have enough ammo anyway.

EDIT: Spazer combo does a max of 2*300 damage, so it might be something to consider for tonski if he takes charge instead of the SM.
Lance Uppercut
2007-11-02 10:52:21 am
Yeah, no point taking the Charge Beam AND extra SMissile-pack. When you exit Maridia via upper route, you can also collect the x-ray e-tank on your way to Norfair. That should help you with the Speed Booster trip.

If you really manage to get the Plasma early, then the Charge Beam should be better choice over SM-pack after all. I also doubt it is possible, but never say never.


EDIT: I tried getting that Plasma myself and did not succeed. There is no way to get any more damage bounce from the crab, so it must be impossible. Although if you tried to hit the crab with certain speed at a certain time... but at least I did not find anything that would have been even near. It would be piece of cake if this hack had gravity mechanics like Redesign  :)
Tonski
2007-11-03 04:21:43 am
I'll be going with charge instead of WS Supers, hell it'll be more fun to TAS.

Well dunno about fun with boss fights but overall. Plus it gives some comparison between the routes making the TASes different.

I have little something in mind concerning the early Plasma which I think too is not obtainable, but I'll try anyway.
Kriole
2007-11-03 07:40:17 am
Meri Kurisumasu! ^_^
Quote from Tonski:
I'll be going with charge instead of WS Supers, hell it'll be more fun to TAS.

Perfect, as Saturn said, this gives us a rough comparison between the routes.

Quote from Tonski:
I have little something in mind concerning the early Plasma which I think too is not obtainable, but I'll try anyway.

Yes, there is an incoming crab, which can launch you several pixels up in the air when hit. But since this is not enough to reach the higher tunnel this trick is useless. But one has to check if speed/timing changes the height. Also, I got like 4 different things I have to check concering this, all leading to a possible spike. If the spike is executed the higher tunnel should be possible to reach.
Tonski
2007-11-03 11:56:11 am
I had a weird idea of using a PB to make yourself invinsible against the crab for some time and then hitting him from behind or something but I couldn't get the use of it. Still it's an idea someone might wanna try when trying to get plasma early.

I thought I'd let this wait for you until my next WIP but here's a small timesaver when heading for Hi-Jump Boots after Supers and croc:

http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1738068618/no_momentum_loss.smv

Since you just got supers and have plenty of them losing 1 extra won't hurt, that is in my opinion. This is a small timesaver barely saves anything but you don't have to wait for the door to open.

Plasma hunt -->

EDIT:
Lulz PB kills that crab.

EDIT2:
Oh and Kriole, now that you have the hi-jump you push towards wall for 14 frames between each walljump I think. If I remember correct that's the optimal way to 1-wall walljump with hi-jump boots.
Kriole
2007-11-04 08:58:23 am
Meri Kurisumasu! ^_^
Quote from Tonski:
EDIT2:
Oh and Kriole, now that you have the hi-jump you push towards wall for 14 frames between each walljump I think. If I remember correct that's the optimal way to 1-wall walljump with hi-jump boots.


I suspected that the hi-jump boots had to have a different frame count. Thank you for this information aswell.

I at the moment really feel like redoing my TAS, my Maridia-run is so...freaking...worthless =(
Words cannot describe its suckiness. And also, I found a possible speedtrick in ceres space station that I'd love to try.

If it is possible to take 2 smv's and compile them into one, then can someone teach me, this would be very useful.
Cpadolf
2007-11-04 09:43:08 am
Almost happy
I'm relatively certain that there is no way of merge 2 smv's, at least without making it desync. (luck manipulation)  But if you want you can just redo maridia.

If you don't know how to continue to record on a old smv do like this.

Load the rom and start playing the movie, when you reach the point where you which to start redoing make a savestate. Now open the movie but before you do so uncheck the box that says Open Read-Only. then just press loadstate and you can begin to record from the point where you saved.

I would not recomend you to start over completely, it is better to finish it first so you have material to improve upon, this way your second try will most likely be much faster. 
Kriole
2007-11-04 10:26:28 am
Meri Kurisumasu! ^_^
Quote from Cpadolf:
But if you want you can just redo maridia.


Redoing does not affect my item-pickup. The problem is lack of ammo so I need to enter the room before botwoon twice, before I can proceed.


Quote from Cpadolf:
Load the rom and start playing the movie, when you reach the point where you which to start redoing make a savestate. Now open the movie but before you do so uncheck the box that says Open Read-Only. then just press loadstate and you can begin to record from the point where you saved.


This was what I ment, thanks for the help. I got atm 18 smv's, it would be better with just 1 ;]

I will continue my run, but don't publish it. I'll tune it down to 24% speed, skipping the frame-advance.
Tonski
2007-11-04 12:14:45 pm
Do not start over, I'd say just finish your TAS. Don't go 24% speed, that's gonna be suckiness more than anything...

But hey, I didn't see why did your Maridia suck so badly? You haven't even done it all the way yet? Your WIP 5 stopped at half way. Plus you could always redo only Maridia.

Oh Kriole I've been meaning to ask now that you're here. Did that move serve any special purpose when you de-equipped hi-jump before the WS missile lake where you do the CWJ? I tried to think did it make you do some stuff faster or so but couldn't figure it out...

Also, your sig.  Embarassed
Kriole
2007-11-04 01:03:05 pm
Meri Kurisumasu! ^_^
Quote from Tonski:
Do not start over, I'd say just finish your TAS. Don't go 24% speed, that's gonna be suckiness more than anything...

Unfortunately, I am already at the speed booster hellrun playing realtime, and I have already decided...
It might be a little overkill, but hey, it's my own decision ;]

Quote from Tonski:
Oh Kriole I've been meaning to ask now that you're here. Did that move serve any special purpose when you de-equipped hi-jump before the WS missile lake where you do the CWJ? I tried to think did it make you do some stuff faster or so but couldn't figure it out...

That is a mere rookie mistake; didn't know the CWJ was possible with the Hi-jump boots equipped.

Quote from Tonski:
But hey, I didn't see why did your Maridia suck so badly? You haven't even done it all the way yet? Your WIP 5 stopped at half way. Plus you could always redo only Maridia.

I have already started the smv, and my ammo management suhuhuuuucks. I'm FORCED to backtrack and re-enter the room before botwoon, since I am low on ammo.

Quote from Tonski:
Also, your sig.  Embarassed
It had to be done :D
Tonski
2007-11-04 01:13:56 pm
A little overkill? That's like ruining your nicely polished TAS just like that! And how are you forced to get back for refils? I'm curious. Can't you redo the smv from some point with the advice CPadolf gave you? It's a shame if you won't finish your TAS, but then again who stops you from starting a new one. Who knows.

Could you possibly tell me if you have a memory watched, that what time does your ingame-clock show when you enter Wrecked Ship? Just for measure. I'm curious about the difference between our TASes at that point.

I'm currently at WS in my TAS, I've tried to optimize even more than before and it looks ok I guess... I'm so gonna go sucksors on Phantoon.  :(
Cpadolf
Cpadolf
Edit history:
Cpadolf: 2007-11-04 01:28:05 pm
2007-11-04 01:17:21 pm
Almost happy
Quote from Kriole:
I have already started the smv, and my ammo management suhuhuuuucks. I'm FORCED to backtrack and re-enter the room before botwoon, since I am low on ammo.


That's exactly why I'll wait to see your runs before I do parts blindly :-D

The ammo management gets <--------------------------> this much better.


EDIT: Also fuck you Saturn for making the metroids invulnerable to power bombs, getting icebeam takes a god dam eternity.
Kriole
2007-11-04 02:17:03 pm
Meri Kurisumasu! ^_^
Tonski:

You need to enter Maridia through the tube with atleast 4 super missiles and 6 missiles, else you cannot fill the 10 missiles 10 SMissiles quota until botwoon without backtrack. And my current run is not so superpolished, my new run will be without annoying stops for weaponrefills. Further, I do not use memory watcher, so I cannot give you my time at my WS entry.
Tonski
2007-11-04 02:24:30 pm
How easy it is to get super refils from Phantoon with all the missile refils I need for 2 round? It's just that I'm at the red door in the bottom of WS main street and have 2 supers, 10 missiles. I could shoot 10 missiles at the red door to be sure and I wouldn't have to worry about super refill from Phantoon, but it'd be slower and I'd have less missiles to start the fight with...

Cpadolf I know you're gonna help me on this one. :P Your epic fights with Phantoon have thought you a lot about him I suppose.
Cpadolf
2007-11-04 03:42:08 pm
Almost happy
Super drops from phantoon are quite rare, I had problems with this and in my final product I got it on pretty much the last frame possible. I'd say save the super, but don't expect a 2 round, IRC you need to hit him with 37 missiles and a super, so the amount of missile drops would make it next to impossible. If you enter with 5 missiles you'll need a mighty 16 drops.
Tonski
Tonski
Edit history:
Tonski: 2007-11-05 08:47:10 am
2007-11-05 08:25:51 am
We made our posts kinda even, you just did your 400th post and I did 500th. :P

Anyway, couldn't I just use the supers and enter with 10 missiles? If I'd get a super refil and do 3 round it wouldn't be any slower in the end, but would require more luck manipulation. I don't feel like using 5 missiles here, so I really need to think this through many times before going forward. When entering Phantoon's room, I gotta be sure as this boss is known to be hard to TAS for beginners. :)

EDIT:
Ok I did some weird testing with Phantoon the way that I shot the both supers on those doors and I can get pretty easily 16 missiles into him the first round, I think 3 round is no problemo. This is still rather unoptimized test and I played to Phantoon in realtime. But I have 3 rounds to work with right? That means more time to manipulate a super missile refil than what you had with 1 round? Plus if I get 16 missiles in 1 round doesn't that mean I have to get only 5 on the 2 other rounds plus that super on the last round?

Teach me masters.
Cpadolf
2007-11-05 01:06:49 pm
Almost happy
You need to hit him with 11 missiles on round 2 and 10 missiles + 1 super on round 3 (or more on one round and less on another)

The chance of getting a super in 3 round seems kind of likely.
Saturn
2007-11-05 01:07:32 pm
As Cpadolf said, Supers are hard to get from Phantoons "lights", but not impossible. I would definitely use Supers on both doors, as it's not only much faster, but saves a huge amount of Missiles. Getting them back will be a bit tricky, but with good luck manipulation it will for sure be much faster in the end. Hope I'm not too late with this.
Tonski
Tonski
Edit history:
Tonski: 2007-11-05 02:07:11 pm
2007-11-05 01:11:33 pm
Hahahaa! Not at all guys, I'm working on Phantoon as we speak and I'm pretty much finished with round 1, got excellent manipulate drops with missiles more than I can spend on 1 round. :P Phantoon took 16 missiles for now but I have the feeling this can be improved by 1 or 2?

Anyway, I'm doing really good with the fight so far, though I dunno how it'll turn in 2 other rounds.

EDIT:
Just as I expected, I could actually improve the first round, now with 18 missiles hit. :D Let's say if I'd get 端ber lucky and get super duper refils could I make a 2 round?  Shocked

Kinda half-serious here. I have 4 missiles and 0 supers, so I guess you can't get all THAT good refils needed to 2 round.
Saturn
Saturn
Edit history:
Saturn: 2007-11-05 02:20:22 pm
2007-11-05 02:16:45 pm
With good optimization you can get more than 20 Missiles in one round. You would just have to take damage from the corner spike to start the Missile Wave from the edge of the room while being invincible. If you got more Missile drops than you can shot, then I would definitely try to get a few more of them in during the first round. That way you would even have a possibility to get  a 2-rounder, though I'm not sure if it's possible to get enough Missile drops during the 2nd round for that.

EDIT: Posted before seeing Tonski's edit.
Tonski
2007-11-05 02:23:32 pm
But what if I did the 2nd round kinda delayed like Kriole's 5th one? You know, just grab some refils from his fireballs and then grab the final refils from fireballs that come when he opens his eye? That'd be 2-round and I think even faster than a 3 round. I'm not sure if I can optimize this first roudn any further, I'd still have 2 missile refils in the top of the room but they're so high I don't think I can get them and shoot Phantoon constanly at the same time...
Cpadolf
2007-11-05 05:47:19 pm
Almost happy
If you could make a 2 round no matter the delay it would be super awesome :P

Also I have an idea for my TAS, I'm not sure that it will save time but I think I'll do it anyway. I will only collect the first E-tank in the pre highjump room and save the other one for when I collect Hijump to avoid refills at the way to WS, I'm not sure it will save time but if possible I don't think I'll lose much if any and it will bring a nice touch to the run. If deemed necessary I might use pause abuse at the way from the first heated room on the way to hijumo but I'll avoid it if possible.


Anyway I'm going to make a test to see if croc is reachable without going in to panic mode with 2 E-tanks.

Also if I sound really stupid now it's because I'm drunk... (worst excuse eva laugh new ) 
SABERinBLUE
2007-11-05 10:26:14 pm
Cook of the Sea
test
Kriole
2007-11-06 06:42:23 am
Meri Kurisumasu! ^_^
Inspired by Tonski I created this. This might be known already, but it confirms its... ehrm... executability (this word does probably not exist).
attachment:
Reverse Gate.smv
Tonski
Tonski
Edit history:
Tonski: 2007-11-06 09:07:00 am
2007-11-06 07:59:17 am
I feel it kinda useless to give me credits about this trick you discovered yourself. :P That trick of mine barely saves any time maybe some useless frames at most but yours is a very good trick giving me access to one more etank. (that's what is there right?) It'll come handy before LN, thanks. Also, I think executability is a word.

As I said I'm succesfully done with Phantoon 1st round but am having a hard time manipulating the second round... He always gives me the same pattern, which I think is a little bit too delayed. He doesn't change the pattern no matter what frame I shoot the last missile into him. Help?

CPadolf:
Nice idea I'm looking forward on seeing it. :)

EDIT:
Who's the moron who told me Supers do 400 on Phantoon?! Now I have to do the second round all over again, the last super only does 300 damage.  Evil or Very Mad God damn it.