Metroid without Samus

Idkbutlike2

2010-09-14 09:23:46 pm

Or at least Nintendo made it fit theirs. Somehow, we welcomed it with open arms regardless of how "Metroidy" it was.

Turtle

Edit history:

Turtle: 2010-09-14 09:41:47 pm

2010-09-14 09:41:36 pm

I like turtles.

The thing is, Prime and Echoes had a lot of sequence-break-friendly glitches, much like Super did. Sequence breaks and openness are two of the biggest factors in how much I enjoy a Metroid title, whether the openness is intentional or not. I'd wager that anyone who spent hours as a child breaking Super Metroid every which way feels the same.

tomatobob

2010-09-14 09:54:13 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from Turtle:

The thing is, Prime and Echoes had a lot of sequence-break-friendly glitches, much like Super did.

And look at how Nintendo reacted. Metroid 4 was all them and it was completely unbreakable. Prime got multiple revisions to fix breaks, many of which were carried over to the sequel which was just so poorly made that it didn't matter. The direction Nintendo wanted to go has been pretty clear, it just took some times to find effective ways to do it.

kesvalk

2010-09-14 11:09:50 pm

Indie Lover

Quote from UchihaSasuke:

that wouldn't work because the Chozo created the Metroids some time before Mother Brain turned against them and joined the pirates. at that time Samus already had the power suit and Chozo training.

Metroid without Samus would have to take place somewhere in the timeline and probably in parallel to a game to explain Samus' abscence.

the chozo made the metroids to get rid of the X, i am sure they made tests with the metroids before perfecting them...
they can make a game about one of the chozo warriors on SR388 when something got really wrong...

why this feels like doom 3?

UchihaSasuke

2010-09-15 01:40:08 am

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

technically, the only open ended games in the series are the original and super to an extent. everything else was intended to be linear but we were lucky that mp1 and 2 were designed in such a way that they could be broken.

so, for all intents and purposes, a Metroid game is a linear game that stars a female bounty hunter in a power suit and fights some aliens.

Toozin

2010-09-15 03:05:14 am

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

Screw sequence breaks. I just want to feel like I'm exploring something in a Metroid game.

Obviously they've been moving away from that, but that's what I like best about the series. 'Real' Metroid or not, my favorites will always be the ones that let you look around at your own pace.

Quietus

2010-09-15 07:17:30 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Quote from UchihaSasuke:

technically, the only open ended games in the series are the original and super to an extent.

I'd say Super is linear too, as far as 'intended' is concerned. It's only once you know some of the more advanced stuff that the game lets you go a little off the normal route. First time players would be unlikely to find anything beyond the odd expansion, and would most likely complete the game in order.

Turtle

2010-09-15 09:01:13 am

I like turtles.

Infinite Bomb Jumps might have been left in as a fanservicey reference to NES Metroid, but I don't think they intended for the player to be able to Mockball (AUGH the spelling) and skip Spore Spawn, or infinite Wall Jump and skip... lots of stuff. And I don't think they intended the Speed Booster and Shinesparking to actually be useful outside of certain situations.

ryu

Edit history:

ryu: 2010-09-15 09:52:50 am

2010-09-15 09:47:35 am

speedrunning and sequence breaking aside, I'm sure what toozin meant was the feeling of being utterly lost and having no idea where to go. sure that doesn't last after a few playthroughs, but don't you guys remember your first time having played super?

TheGreenManalishi

Edit history:

TheGreenManalishi: 2010-09-15 10:14:51 am

2010-09-15 10:13:55 am

Quote from Toozin:

Screw sequence breaks. I just want to feel like I'm exploring something in a Metroid game.

Obviously they've been moving away from that, but that's what I like best about the series. 'Real' Metroid or not, my favorites will always be the ones that let you look around at your own pace.

What Tooz said. I feel like everything I think gets said by someone else before I get chance.

Quietus

2010-09-15 10:57:38 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Quote from Turtle:

Infinite Bomb Jumps might have been left in as a fanservicey reference to NES Metroid, but I don't think they intended for the player to be able to Mockball (AUGH the spelling) and skip Spore Spawn, or infinite Wall Jump and skip... lots of stuff. And I don't think they intended the Speed Booster and Shinesparking to actually be useful outside of certain situations.

And most of those are sequence breaks, and do not alter its linearity. Linearity refers to the path laid before you. If you have multiple paths, then it is not linear, but having one path that can be broken still has a linear path. Also, what you mentioned is pretty much what I said. Unless the player employs more advanced techniques, which is unlikely on a first run, then they would no doubt have followed the intended path. Surely the most obvious example you missed is wall-jumping? Even if it's not seriously abused, you can do things like getting Spazer early.

KennyMan666

2010-09-15 04:58:52 pm

Viking

Precursor

Metroid without Samus? Yeah, that was made in 1997.

It was called Castlevania: Symphony of the Night.

(my point is that yes, you could make a true, canon Metroid game without Samus. But Castlevania has been better at doing Metroid in 2D than Metroid itself has for many, many years.)

Idkbutlike2

2010-09-15 05:11:35 pm

The only thing that Castlevania borrowed from Metroid was the open-ended world design and exploration. Everything else is different in that series.

ryu

2010-09-15 05:13:50 pm

Check out Magical Pop'n. The more recent Castlevanais seem to be more of a ripoff of that game.

Idkbutlike2

2010-09-15 05:19:19 pm

Quote from ryu:

Check out Magical Pop'n. The more recent Castlevanais seem to be more of a ripoff of that game.

Sounds like another Zelda 2 clone, TBH.

arkarian

2010-09-15 05:20:53 pm

red chamber dream

yeah, i don't really get the comparisons between metroid and castlevania at all. they're almost nothing alike.

KingBroly

Edit history:

KingBroly: 2010-09-15 05:22:36 pm

2010-09-15 05:22:04 pm

Quote from KennyMan666:

Metroid without Samus? Yeah, that was made in 1997.

It was called Castlevania: Symphony of the Night.

(my point is that yes, you could make a true, canon Metroid game without Samus. But Castlevania has been better at doing Metroid in 2D than Metroid itself has for many, many years.)

But there have been 2 2D Metroids games since then and at least 5 Castlevania games in that style. Metroid was also focusing on 3D, while Castlevania still struggles with it. It seems like they might finally have it with Lords of Shadow, but it's going to be a linear/old-school style Castlevania game.

kesvalk

2010-09-15 05:22:46 pm

Indie Lover

the map desing is, like, you have colored rooms where you have passed, blinking room where you are, and grey area where you never have been...

anything else is very diferent...

KennyMan666

2010-09-15 05:45:45 pm

Viking

Precursor

There's a reason the entire gameplay concept is known as Metroidvania these days.

And what's that about Castlevania "still" struggling with 3D? Lament of Innocence was a great game, and that was made in 2003. And it wasn't entirely linear.

arkarian

2010-09-15 05:48:43 pm

red chamber dream

Quote from KennyMan666:

There's a reason the entire gameplay concept is known as Metroidvania these days.

ok ... so what is that reason? i think that term is just something some retard came up with one day and now everyone's calling them that -- even though it doesn't make any sense. the only thing sm and sotn have in common is a somewhat similar map styles, like kesvalk said. that's hardly an "entire gameplay concept".

Idkbutlike2

Edit history:

Idkbutlike2: 2010-09-15 05:59:11 pm

Idkbutlike2: 2010-09-15 05:59:05 pm

Idkbutlike2: 2010-09-15 05:58:28 pm

Idkbutlike2: 2010-09-15 05:58:03 pm

2010-09-15 05:57:47 pm

SotN basically copied the map, save points, toggled power-ups (Relics), and that sort of backtracking that Super Metroid was known for. They're minute similarities, to say the least, but they're definitely there.

072

2010-09-15 06:00:14 pm

coral to complement blue

SOTN is basically Super Metroid, only you stab things instead of shoot them.

arkarian

2010-09-15 06:14:40 pm

red chamber dream

most of those things weren't unique to super metroid though, even at the time. and the weapon/upgrade systems in the two are so different that any similarities don't stand out to me. really, cv games are more like action rpgs than anything else.

Quietus

2010-09-15 08:01:40 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

It's probably a simple case of them being the biggest two games, with the biggest following, making the portmanteau an easy step. The idea of get an item, open a new area, get a new item, has been around forever. I'd name Dizzy as one of my favourites. aiwebs_004

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2010-09-16 05:02:31 pm

2010-09-16 04:59:33 pm

I don't think Super Metroid's appeal is glitch usage and breaking the game. This should be avoided by design in general (I am still aware some people have fun tasing SM). Also the protagonist can be hidden by design, it will help to keep mystery and won't interfere with the Metroid game-concept and keeps some flaws, inconsistency and fallacy away. A core component that made SM great was that you was intended to be thrown into a closed and consistent rule-system, it was up to you to explore your world and to make use of it. The upgrade-progression allowed you to get accustomed to your new tech-toys in a natural way. This is actually something that I can truly call game-design. Nothing of that was accomplished in Other M.

I think you should never break something that is working well. Take the same good old stuff and improve upon it. Add new stuff that works in its own respect like advanced combat for example. It should add to the game but not replace it. I am convinced that can make a truly masterfull and rich game. Starcraft 2 is a shiny example for that.

I don't think Super Metroid's appeal is glitch usage and breaking the game. This should be avoided by design in general (I am still aware some people have fun tasing SM). Also the protagonist can be hidden by design, it will help to keep mystery and won't interfere with the Metroid game-concept and keeps some flaws, inconsistency and fallacy away. A core component that made SM great was that you was intended to be thrown into a closed and consistent rule-system, it was up to you to explore your world and to make use of it. The upgrade-progression allowed you to get accustomed to your new tech-toys in a natural way. This is actually something that I can truly call game-design. Nothing of that was accomplished in Other M.

I think you should never break something that is working well. Take the same good old stuff and improve upon it. Add new stuff that works in its own respect like advanced combat for example. It should add to the game but not replace it. I am convinced that can make a truly masterfull and rich game. Starcraft 2 is a shiny example for that.