Metroid without Samus

2010-09-14 06:51:30 am

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

Speed runners and sequence breakers are such a rediculously low percentage of the total market that any kind of catering to them would be extremely foolish.

And let's face it: we buy this shit no matter what.

sabata2

2010-09-14 06:52:31 am

ANKOKU

Not if they switch to the "Casual" players and promote the game more. Then it doesn't matter how many old fans there were, if there's twice as many dumb fools to buy the new game they won't care.

tomatobob

2010-09-14 07:00:42 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Fukkin losers who just play the games for fun are literally killing Metroid miright? Casfags.

Quietus

2010-09-14 07:34:46 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

It seems like I gave the impression I think all Metroid players are hardcorers. Razz

That's not the case. I simply mean that most people buying the game are likely to be fans of the series, but over time, we will become less interested (not DISinterested) unless the core gameplay, which was face forward, go, collect, is returned. Having one set path is not Metroid. Had they changed the appearance of Samus in this game, and created any new character, the game would still fit. We'd all have screamed 'Metroid clone!' laugh new

Unfortunately, a lot of what made Metroid fun is being systematically removed. There is now next to no exploration at all. Even when you finish the game, every item is pointed out to you, so even the searching aspect is now essentially gone.

I guess the only thing I do agree with in Other M is that it fits perfectly into the 'we-ll hold your hand through the entire game' that most recent games tend to lean toward. Maybe players just aren't as dedicated as they once were?

It seems like I gave the impression I think all Metroid players are hardcorers. :razz:  That's not the case.  I simply mean that most people buying the game are likely to be fans of the series, but over time, we will become less interested (not DISinterested) unless the core gameplay, which was face forward, go, collect, is returned.  Having one set path is not Metroid.  Had they changed the appearance of Samus in this game, and created any new character, the game would still fit.  We'd all have screamed 'Metroid clone!' :laugh:

Unfortunately, a lot of what made Metroid fun is being systematically removed.  There is now next to no exploration at all.  Even when you finish the game, every item is pointed out to you, so even the searching aspect is now essentially gone.

I guess the only thing I do agree with in Other M is that it fits perfectly into the 'we-ll hold your hand through the entire game' that most recent games tend to lean toward.  Maybe players just aren't as dedicated as they once were?

Opium

2010-09-14 07:52:21 am

Quote from Quietus:

I know, but what I'm saying is sales-wise, the people who rush out on day one are mostly fans of the series. I wouldn't imagine that regular Joes would purchase it over other games any more than any other game off the shelf. The fanbase makes up a large quantity of sales, and to alienate them can't do them any favours...

True, but what I was saying had a distinction between players who make up the fanbase (MDb) vs. 'dedicated' (M2K2) players.

nate

2010-09-14 07:56:31 am

other people do stupid stuff all the time.

let me ask you this: did you buy other m?

J_SNAKE

2010-09-14 08:31:42 am

Quote from Opium:

While high levels of dedication may seem sweet to some of those involved with creating the game, it's not really what they're going for. 2 retarded customers are twice as good as the most 'dedicated' one.

That is the point. And what makes it even more attractive for devs to go this route is that a game for retarded is easy to design and needs less love and dedication. If they would care much about Metroid then they would design the game to satisfy all needs. The needs of (boring) casual crowd and the needs of serious gamers. It is possible.

Opium

2010-09-14 08:39:38 am

It's definitely possible but I think you made a point when you said that it was easier to design a more tardish game. That takes time and I'm not sure they see it as worth it to spend the time/money to design the game cleverly.

arkarian

2010-09-14 03:58:01 pm

red chamber dream

Quote from Quietus:

I know, but what I'm saying is sales-wise, the people who rush out on day one are mostly fans of the series.

nintendo doesn't really give a fuck who rushes out and buys it on day one. they just want people to buy it.

UchihaSasuke

2010-09-14 04:01:40 pm

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

i don't mind if they make the game they way they want.

what i really hate is they spending extra work putting some invisible walls to stop that very low percentage of players from having extra fun. what does that accomplish anyway if it is stuff the regular gamer won't ever try? it looks like a waste of time.
also, i hate when they remove glitches that make speedrunning fun (like scan dashes, BSJ, IS, etc.) and yet leave crappy glitches that are useless or hinder you (charge glitch in mp1, no bombs glitch in mp2). the worst of this is that those crappy glitches are far more easier for a casual fan to find than the glitches the speedrunners use (seriously, how many players would be able to randomly find the BSJ when playing?)

Quietus

2010-09-14 04:37:39 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Quote from arkarian:

nintendo doesn't really give a fuck who rushes out and buys it on day one. they just want people to buy it.

Exactly, but if they continue to switch fans off, the number of buyers will dwindle over time, which seems like a waste. Never mind.

arkarian

2010-09-14 04:50:39 pm

red chamber dream

i don't think that's true either. it's what nate said -- i mean everyone here still bought other m right?

Quietus

2010-09-14 05:14:16 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

With hope for a 'real' Metroid, yes, but I suspect a number of fans have been turned off by what they've seen and haven't purchased it. We're also a little biased, since we all (for the most part) like Metroid more than most, or we wouldn't be on m2k2. Wink

arkarian

2010-09-14 05:16:40 pm

red chamber dream

but we all knew it wouldn't be a "real" metroid before it even came out right?

Quietus

2010-09-14 05:18:02 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

As I said, we had hope. Don't take it from us, Ark, OK? Pray

J_SNAKE

2010-09-14 05:25:36 pm

Quote from UchihaSasuke:

i don't mind if they make the game they way they want.

I believe they are designing the game according to the business model and as elegant as possible first place, that is the primary condition.

I don't want to get into detail and take much of your time, so just let me mention only few things that make obvious that much dedication and love wasn't spend on it. The story-presentation is broken and filled with fallacies. A concept of depth/balance in combat isn't greatly understood. For example 'reload-speed vs capacity'. It doesn't make sense to expand missile capacity that much if you can reload them in a matter of 2 seconds. It is unlikely that you will necessarily need more than 15 missiles in one flow.

Personally I saw the trend and knew it will go downhill after SM. So I only rent suspective casual stuff when it is new and buy later used games when I want to own them for whatever reason. I support devs when I clearly see and feel quality and dedication. Personally Metroid Other M doesn't deserve to be supported.

[quote="UchihaSasuke"]i don't mind if they make the game they way they want. [/quote]
I believe they are designing the game according to the business model and as elegant as possible first place, that is the primary condition.

I don't want to get into detail and take much of your time, so just let me mention only few things that make obvious that much dedication and love wasn't spend on it. The story-presentation is broken and filled with fallacies. A concept of depth/balance in combat isn't greatly understood. For example 'reload-speed vs capacity'. It doesn't make sense to expand missile capacity that much if you can reload them in a matter of 2 seconds. It is unlikely that you will necessarily need more than 15 missiles in one flow.

Personally I saw the trend and knew it will go downhill after SM. So I only rent suspective casual stuff when it is new and buy later used games when I want to own them for whatever reason. I support devs when I clearly see and feel quality and dedication. Personally Metroid Other M doesn't deserve to be supported.

sabata2

2010-09-14 06:09:53 pm

ANKOKU

I think Other M's engine has potential, lots of it (from a dev standpoint). It's just the overemphasis the Devs and Metroid's creator put on certain things that brought it down.

Turtle

2010-09-14 06:18:59 pm

I like turtles.

The physics are excellent. Just tweak to allow for infinite Bomb Jumping and for actually gaining altitude with Space Jump, and you're golden.

sabata2

2010-09-14 06:24:02 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from Turtle:

The physics are excellent. Just tweak to allow for infinite Bomb Jumping and for actually gaining altitude with Space Jump, and you're golden.

Remove a hard-coded height limit, and raise the "jump" velocity of space jump.
Easy.

But I was talking about changing Concentration to not be an "all at once" type deal, so it's just slow regeneration. (3 HP a second, 1 missile every second)

Damn, that was ALL I was thinking about... The engine is damn good, it's just all those bumps to stop speed booster, and invisible walls to stop SBs that pushed the game down.

Prime Hunter

2010-09-14 07:02:02 pm

Quote from arkarian:

but we all knew it wouldn't be a "real" metroid before it even came out right?

Except that's the thing, isn't it? What is a "real" Metroid game these days? Other M seems to me like a natural progression that Nintendo has been following for years now. There are only a few games in the series that reward you for exploration as much as the older games did, and ever since Prime the series has been on the path towards linearity. We've all seen it by now I'd guess. I'd say those "real" Metroid titles are a rare breed if we're considering games like Super, Prime, and ZM to be what Metroid is all about. Clearly right now, Nintendo has a different interpretation than we do, and they're in control of where the series goes from here.

Not trying to say that the focus on linearity makes these newer games worse than those three, but it seems anytime I hear the words "real Metroid" these days it points back to those as the primary examples.

tomatobob

2010-09-14 07:17:51 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from Quietus:

With hope for a 'real' Metroid, yes, but I suspect a number of fans have been turned off by what they've seen and haven't purchased it. We're also a little biased, since we all (for the most part) like Metroid more than most, or we wouldn't be on m2k2. Wink

Other M is more Metroid than Super is at this point. "Real" Metroid is what ever Nintendo wants it to be, and it's been moving steadily in this direction for a long time now. It hasn't hurt them yet so there's no reason to change it. The importance you put on "Dedicated fans" is nice in theory but it doesn't work that way anymore, in the past where the market was small finding ways to keep longtime fans on board was important because they were the only sure thing you had, now the market is larger and appealing to the broader base is a much better bet. The small group of dedicated fans will still buy the game because of the name, and maybe they'll start tapering off, but they are likely reaching an age where their less likely to by games for themselves anyway and there aren't a whole lot of them so it's a minimal loss when there's much more to gain.

[quote="Quietus"]With hope for a 'real' Metroid, yes, but I suspect a number of fans have been turned off by what they've seen and haven't purchased it.  We're also a little biased, since we all (for the most part) like Metroid more than most, or we wouldn't be on m2k2. :wink:[/quote]
Other M is more Metroid than Super is at this point. "Real" Metroid is what ever Nintendo wants it to be, and it's been moving steadily in this direction for a long time now. It hasn't hurt them yet so there's no reason to change it. The importance you put on "Dedicated fans" is nice in theory but it doesn't work that way anymore, in the past where the market was small finding ways to keep longtime fans on board was important because they were the only sure thing you had, now the market is larger and appealing to the broader base is a much better bet. The small group of dedicated fans will still buy the game because of the name, and maybe they'll start tapering off, but they are likely reaching an age where their less likely to by games for themselves anyway and there aren't a whole lot of them so it's a minimal loss when there's much more to gain.

072

Edit history:

072: 2010-09-14 08:39:49 pm

072: 2010-09-14 08:39:37 pm

2010-09-14 08:39:05 pm

coral to complement blue

Quote from tomatobob:

Other M is more Metroid than Super is at this point. "Real" Metroid is what ever Nintendo wants it to be

Whether or not this is true, there's a cool Picasso quote that I've always liked that pretty much sums up my opinion here. Basically, Picasso was asked to look over a collection of paintings that was attributed to him and to identify any fakes. "But Pablo, I saw you paint that one myself!"

To which he responded, "Sure. Don't you think I can fake a Picasso as well as anyone?"

Picasso knows what's up.

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2010-09-14 08:48:09 pm

2010-09-14 08:47:21 pm

Quote from tomatobob:

Other M is more Metroid than Super is at this point.

Super Metroid is a game concept that has to be expanded. Other M is not.

tomatobob

2010-09-14 08:57:20 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

That ship ailed off the edge of the world years ago.

tomatobob

2010-09-14 09:00:13 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Honestly, even Prime isn't all that "Metroid" as far as our type is concerned when you get right down to it. We just made it fit our definition.