21% Topic

2004-09-22 11:00:08 am

Man, I can't beilive I didn't notice this topic before now, someone should make a list of all the rooms which is a problem when dropping from 22% to 21% and a link to a vid of the solution (unless its still not solved) to help people get on the right track.. people like me.

This has inspired me so much I might even start a space jump less game.
I wont hide it anymore: I was going to do a 100% run but the outlook is not good. Gice has trusted me enough to send his NTSC copy of Metroid Prime, sadly I'm letting people down by having no way of recording since my capture card just screwed up so now theres no sound (It's the capture card, not my sound card) and the recording is all green and F'ed up, and my VCR cant handle NTSC. But I can still play it so - as I said - I might start a space jump less game.
What stuff affects (bomb) jumping? AFAIK the boost ball (.. and the gravity suit?) is a couple of items that should be skipped in order to simulate a 21% game. What else?

but first I have to deal with this german test that I have tomorrow. I haven't practised a bit.. I soo hate learning another language -_-

Thank you, Gice.

Man, I can't beilive I didn't notice this topic before now, someone should make a list of all the rooms which is a problem when dropping from 22% to 21% and a link to a vid of the solution (unless its still not solved) to help people get on the right track.. people like me.

This has inspired me so much I might even start a space jump less game.
I wont hide it anymore: I was going to do a 100% run but the outlook is not good. Gice has trusted me enough to send his NTSC copy of Metroid Prime, sadly I'm letting people down by having no way of recording since my capture card just screwed up so now theres no sound (It's the capture card, not my sound card) and the recording is all green and F'ed up, and my VCR cant handle NTSC. But I can still play it so - as I said - I might start a space jump less game.
What stuff affects (bomb) jumping? AFAIK the boost ball (.. and the gravity suit?) is a couple of items that should be skipped in order to simulate a 21% game. What else?

but first I have to deal with this german test that I have tomorrow. I haven't practised a bit.. I soo hate learning another language -_-

Thank you, Gice.

Ekarderif

2004-09-22 11:16:19 am

Quote from GameCube04:

Actually, smilingjack didn't use the Spider Ball in that vid. GTH is 100% confirmed.

He did use the Spider Ball to steady himself so he can DBJ up to the circle. Plus, Prime is kind of absurd on how just having items helps everything else (*cough* Space Jump *cough*). I'm not doubting it's possible; I'm just saying that some people prefer to have it completely verified without Spider Ball. Don't mean to sound like a grouch though... I'm really happy that smilingjack13 solved the Great Tree Hall.

nate

2004-09-22 11:35:10 am

Quote from TRH:

I soo hate learning another language -_-

rotflmao. that just made my day. of course you do - everyone hates learning a language. you seem to have acquired english just fine though, somehow. :)

GameCube04

2004-09-22 12:05:27 pm

Quote from Ekarderif:

He did use the Spider Ball to steady himself so he can DBJ up to the circle. Plus, Prime is kind of absurd on how just having items helps everything else (*cough* Space Jump *cough*). I'm not doubting it's possible; I'm just saying that some people prefer to have it completely verified without Spider Ball. Don't mean to sound like a grouch though... I'm really happy that smilingjack13 solved the Great Tree Hall.

Smilingjack used the spider ball in the first GTH vid he posted (where he made the jump up to the circle but missed the jump to the door). In the video where it has both of those jumps, he does not use spider ball to steady himself. Unless I'm mistaken, in which case I apologize for being stupid, but I'm almost positive he didn't use it.

Edit: Almost forgot.

http://www.metroid2002.com/gamecube04/gc04_phendranas_edge_no_sj.avi

As far as I can tell, there are two specific things that have to happen in order for this bomb jump to work.

1) You have to get stalled on the branch for a little bit for the placement of the 4th bomb. Otherwise you just won't get enough height.

2) The camera has to be moving exactly like it does in the vid, shaking to the left every time you jump up. In order to do this, I hold down the L button and hold somewhere between upper left and up.

*goes to work on the final jump*

[quote="Ekarderif"]He did use the Spider Ball to steady himself so he can DBJ up to the circle. Plus, Prime is kind of absurd on how just having items helps everything else (*cough* Space Jump *cough*). I'm not doubting it's possible; I'm just saying that some people prefer to have it completely verified without Spider Ball. Don't mean to sound like a grouch though... I'm really happy that smilingjack13 solved the Great Tree Hall.[/quote]

Smilingjack used the spider ball in the first GTH vid he posted (where he made the jump up to the circle but missed the jump to the door).  In the video where it has both of those jumps, he does not use spider ball to steady himself.  Unless I'm mistaken, in which case I apologize for being stupid, but I'm almost positive he didn't use it.

Edit:  Almost forgot.

http://www.metroid2002.com/gamecube04/gc04_phendranas_edge_no_sj.avi

As far as I can tell, there are two specific things that have to happen in order for this bomb jump to work.

1)  You have to get stalled on the branch for a little bit for the placement of the 4th bomb.  Otherwise you just won't get enough height.

2)  The camera has to be moving exactly like it does in the vid, shaking to the left every time you jump up.  In order to do this, I hold down the L button and hold somewhere between upper left and up.

*goes to work on the final jump*

smilingjack13

2004-09-22 03:28:50 pm

Quote from GameCube04:

Quote from Ekarderif:

He did use the Spider Ball to steady himself so he can DBJ up to the circle. Plus, Prime is kind of absurd on how just having items helps everything else (*cough* Space Jump *cough*). I'm not doubting it's possible; I'm just saying that some people prefer to have it completely verified without Spider Ball. Don't mean to sound like a grouch though... I'm really happy that smilingjack13 solved the Great Tree Hall.

Smilingjack used the spider ball in the first GTH vid he posted (where he made the jump up to the circle but missed the jump to the door). In the video where it has both of those jumps, he does not use spider ball to steady himself. Unless I'm mistaken, in which case I apologize for being stupid, but I'm almost positive he didn't use it.

Gamecube04 is exactly right. I did not use the spider ball at all on the vid in my directory. I did use the spider ball in the original vid I captured, but after I finally made that 3BJ at the end, I redid the bomb jump before it without using the spider ball. So, GTH is indeed 100% confirmed.

I did have the spider ball in my possession, but I am sure that it does not affect anything. Doing that whole room consecutively would be far too insane for me to attempt just to be able to say that I did GTH under exact 21% conditions. If spider ball affected physics in any way, it surely would have been discovered before now.

Gamecube04: Good job on that TBJ in Phendrana's Edge. I think I'll try to assist the efforts to solve the last jump.

[quote="GameCube04"][quote="Ekarderif"]He did use the Spider Ball to steady himself so he can DBJ up to the circle. Plus, Prime is kind of absurd on how just having items helps everything else (*cough* Space Jump *cough*). I'm not doubting it's possible; I'm just saying that some people prefer to have it completely verified without Spider Ball. Don't mean to sound like a grouch though... I'm really happy that smilingjack13 solved the Great Tree Hall.[/quote]

Smilingjack used the spider ball in the first GTH vid he posted (where he made the jump up to the circle but missed the jump to the door).  In the video where it has both of those jumps, he does not use spider ball to steady himself.  Unless I'm mistaken, in which case I apologize for being stupid, but I'm almost positive he didn't use it.[/quote]

Gamecube04 is exactly right. I did not use the spider ball at all on the vid in my directory. I did use the spider ball in the original vid I captured, but after I finally made that 3BJ at the end, I redid the bomb jump before it without using the spider ball. So, GTH is indeed 100% confirmed.

I did have the spider ball in my possession, but I am sure that it does not affect anything. Doing that whole room consecutively would be far too insane for me to attempt just to be able to say that I did GTH under exact 21% conditions. If spider ball affected physics in any way, it surely would have been discovered before now.

Gamecube04: Good job on that TBJ in Phendrana's Edge. I think I'll try to assist the efforts to solve the last jump.

kip

2004-09-22 05:03:20 pm

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/phen's_edge_grapple_thing.avi

I had space jump though... and I messed up the dash to the artifact ledge, not that it matters since sparky did it already.

I'll try it without space jump on my own if you guys would rather move on to geo or vent shaft. Assuming no one already did it but just hasn't posted yet.

GameCube04

2004-09-22 05:14:44 pm

Wow... great work there kip! Even though you had space jump, I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible without it... two more rooms to go!

Ekarderif

2004-09-22 05:34:39 pm

I'm wondering if there's a lock on the upper door of Omega Pirate chamber area before he's defeated. If there isn't, we can alter the route to go Plasma -> Power Bombs and that way get to PPC through the CD -> MQB route instead of just limited to the Ventilation Shaft. The jump up would be a doozy though...

I'm sorry if I sounded a bit antagonistic up there with Great Tree Hall; I just like to play the devil's advocate at times.

kip

2004-09-22 05:38:54 pm

I think someone said there was a lock, but it wouldn't hurt to check again. It also wouldn't hurt to check both before and during the battle to be sure, just in case vent shaft turns out impossible or something.

If there is a lock, it would be nice to know if it's already there when you enter or if it's triggered by something else.

smilingjack13

2004-09-22 05:58:21 pm

Quote from elyscape:

Hoooo, wow, jack. That movie is incredible. Great job on that!

Thanks. :)

I meant to say that in my last post.

Quote from Ekarderif:

I'm sorry if I sounded a bit antagonistic up there with Great Tree Hall; I just like to play the devil's advocate at times.

That's not a problem. I suppose being thorough is a good thing.

About that route... Maybe I'm missing something or misunderstanding it, but don't you need to defeat OP to get to PPC with that route? And how would you defeat him without the X-ray visor? And how would you get the X-ray visor before going into the mines to get the power bombs? It's not as if you can grab a PB expansion to get it, since you need the main upgrade from CD for Artifact of Warrior. That would kind of mess up a low percent run.

There is a good chance I'm missing something though. If I'm not, and Vent Shaft is all that's left, then we could try to damage OP without X-ray and lower the percent twice at once. :) I doubt anyone will find a way to do that though.

Speaking of Vent Shaft, I came up with a weird idea today. I'm not sure if anyone else has tried it yet. Anyway, the idea is basically to go to the corner by the ledge that you're bombing for, and bomb up the corner instead. You get a bit more resistance here, which means you get a bit more height. Theoretically, there's probably enough height to get onto the ledge, but there are a couple problems. First, you are obviously not lined up with the ledge. Secondly, there is a stupid bar in the top corner of the room that gets in the way of the last bomb. Well, maybe there is some way to come out of the corner a bit during the jump, avoid the bar, and get to the ledge.

And great discovery in Phendrana's Edge, Bartendor! And good job putting it to use, kip! :P

[quote="elyscape"]Hoooo, wow, jack. That movie is [i]incredible[/i]. Great job on that![/quote]

Thanks.  :)

I meant to say that in my last post.

[quote="Ekarderif"]I'm sorry if I sounded a bit antagonistic up there with Great Tree Hall; I just like to play the devil's advocate at times.[/quote]

That's not a problem. I suppose being thorough is a good thing.

About that route... Maybe I'm missing something or misunderstanding it, but don't you need to defeat OP to get to PPC with that route? And how would you defeat him without the X-ray visor? And how would you get the X-ray visor before going into the mines to get the power bombs? It's not as if you can grab a PB expansion to get it, since you need the main upgrade from CD for Artifact of Warrior. That would kind of mess up a low percent run.

There is a good chance I'm missing something though. If I'm not, and Vent Shaft is all that's left, then we could try to damage OP without X-ray and lower the percent twice at once.  :)  I doubt anyone will find a way to do that though.

Speaking of Vent Shaft, I came up with a weird idea today. I'm not sure if anyone else has tried it yet. Anyway, the idea is basically to go to the corner by the ledge that you're bombing for, and bomb up the corner instead. You get a bit more resistance here, which means you get a bit more height. Theoretically, there's probably enough height to get onto the ledge, but there are a couple problems. First, you are obviously not lined up with the ledge. Secondly, there is a stupid bar in the top corner of the room that gets in the way of the last bomb. Well, maybe there is some way to come out of the corner a bit during the jump, avoid the bar, and get to the ledge.

And great discovery in Phendrana's Edge, Bartendor! And good job putting it to use, kip!  :P

Prime Hunter

2004-09-22 06:08:52 pm

Hmm.... so from what I've read, 21% is actually a posibility then? Good luck to anyone who may pull this off.

I guess all of this work may also have a use for Echoes: Think of all of the ways you guys have thought of to get around these "Impossible without X Item" places over the course of SB. That could in turn make us better at finding ones in MP2 since we have some ideas of the kinds of things that have and haven't worked for Prime. Wink

Now that I think about it, haven't you guys been able to get rid of about 10% of the powerups that were thought to be ones that you MUST have to complete the game with? 8)

Ekarderif

2004-09-22 06:10:01 pm

My route is meant to skip the Omega Pirate the first time around :P. That's why I was wondering why there's a lock on the door. If we can get up there and out, we can skip the Ventilation Shaft if a solution never arises.

Andrew Mills

2004-09-22 06:38:10 pm

Strategy Guide Writer

Even though you guys might not be up for it, I realised a SW based way around Vent Shaft in 21% conditions. Not ideal for recording, for for doing it, it should work.

If you get into the MQB SW (you shouldn't need SJ to get on top of a Frozen Metroid to be catapulted up) you should be able to work your way back to Vent Shaft by wallcrawling to Vent Shaft and Door Warping back in at the top. OR, you could use it to bypass PPC by going past OP's room and floating up PPC and door warping back in at the top.

Meh, just some food for thought should conventional methods prove impossible...

nate

2004-09-22 06:38:12 pm

nope, it's locked during the battle. :/ i can check on it when you walk in in a second.

kip

2004-09-22 06:51:21 pm

What happens if you enter Elite Quarters, but don't go in far enough that the door closes, then go far enough that it reloads, and come back? Is it still locked, or is anything else different? No need to try this if it sounds ridiculous, but I don't have an AR so I can't myself.

Thanks for those ideas, Andrew.

Andrew Mills

2004-09-22 06:53:48 pm

Strategy Guide Writer

Quote from kip:

What happens if you enter Elite Quarters, but don't go in far enough that the door closes, then go far enough that it reloads, and come back? Is it still locked, or is anything else different? No need to try this if it sounds ridiculous, but I don't have an AR so I can't myself.

:| :? Join me when I say...

HUH!? WHA...!? EH!?

Which room is Elite Quarters again?

*Edit* If I'm right in thinking that OP's room is that room, then it doesn't matter a jot if the room is actually locked in anyway as you can still bypass it in a SW state by shooting it from below, allowing you to open the door. Twisted Evil

nate

2004-09-22 06:56:48 pm

the large room you fight op in. i think kip is trying to load it twice to see if they forgot to lock the door when it loads twice (and if there's even a difference when it loads twice anyway). i'll be on it in a sec.

edit: the door appears to be unlocked before the fight, but after the fight starts, it always locks. haven't been able to moon jump past his activation area yet ... seems to be quite large.

kip

2004-09-22 09:00:01 pm

Okay, here's the grapple point thing again, without space jump this time (also includes tbj to last floating platform):

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/phen's_edge_upper_half.avi

Sadly I still didn't do the dash to the artifact ledge, this time I fell off after walking too far forward. That thing would be a real nuisance in 21%... how are you supposed to know whether you're too far forward or not? If you walk too far forward, you fall, if you're not far enough, you'll hit something when you dash and fall anyway.

I forgot to pause to show I don't have space jump... oh well.

bartendorsparky

2004-09-22 09:07:57 pm

always move fast

nice kip, but about that tbj to the last platform, i managed that same jump with a dbj ladder. I had moonjump activated, but i dont think that makes a difference with bombs jumps.
Anyway, nice job with the videol very cool. For the dash, i think the main factor is where the glider is, not neccesarily where you are standing....but i only made it twice, so dont neccesarily listen to me...

GameCube04

2004-09-22 09:15:53 pm

Excellent... now it's "officially" down to two rooms. :P

And yes, it is very possible to bomb ladder to the last floating platform. I've done it without SJ, and it's not too hard.

BoostR

2004-09-22 09:58:44 pm

Quote from kip:

What happens if you enter Elite Quarters, but don't go in far enough that the door closes, then go far enough that it reloads, and come back? Is it still locked, or is anything else different? No need to try this if it sounds ridiculous, but I don't have an AR so I can't myself.

o_O

That's pretty confusing. So you're saying go into the room, but don't let the door close behind you, then go two rooms away and come back? I'd think letting the door close would probably make more of a difference, if any. :?

And like Nate said, the door is not locked when you enter, but locks when the fight cutscene is triggered. I couldn't bypass the trigger point the two times I tried. >_> (I'm real thorough :P )

smilingjack13

2004-09-22 11:29:18 pm

Quote from smilingjack13:

Speaking of Vent Shaft, I came up with a weird idea today. I'm not sure if anyone else has tried it yet. Anyway, the idea is basically to go to the corner by the ledge that you're bombing for, and bomb up the corner instead. You get a bit more resistance here, which means you get a bit more height. Theoretically, there's probably enough height to get onto the ledge, but there are a couple problems. First, you are obviously not lined up with the ledge. Secondly, there is a stupid bar in the top corner of the room that gets in the way of the last bomb. Well, maybe there is some way to come out of the corner a bit during the jump, avoid the bar, and get to the ledge.

I messed around with this bombing a bit more tonight. Even though I didn't play for long and didn't have anything too good, I am quite sure this strategy can get out of Vent Shaft. You just need to hold bottomright a bit during the second half of the jump to move yourself away from that bar in the corner, and you need to hold bottomright (or something) to angle yourself towards the ledge when you unmorph. If the OP strat fails, some of you might want to try this.

BTW, the jump seems to work better if you start out holding upperright when you're in the corner. However, as soon as the first bomb of the jump hits you, you should switch to holding straight up. This is with the same camera angle as normal Vent Shaft. Perhaps there are better directions to hold though.

[quote="smilingjack13"]Speaking of Vent Shaft, I came up with a weird idea today. I'm not sure if anyone else has tried it yet. Anyway, the idea is basically to go to the corner by the ledge that you're bombing for, and bomb up the corner instead. You get a bit more resistance here, which means you get a bit more height. Theoretically, there's probably enough height to get onto the ledge, but there are a couple problems. First, you are obviously not lined up with the ledge. Secondly, there is a stupid bar in the top corner of the room that gets in the way of the last bomb. Well, maybe there is some way to come out of the corner a bit during the jump, avoid the bar, and get to the ledge.[/quote]

I messed around with this bombing a bit more tonight. Even though I didn't play for long and didn't have anything too good, I am quite sure this strategy can get out of Vent Shaft. You just need to hold bottomright a bit during the second half of the jump to move yourself away from that bar in the corner, and you need to hold bottomright (or something) to angle yourself towards the ledge when you unmorph. If the OP strat fails, some of you might want to try this.

BTW, the jump seems to work better if you start out holding upperright when you're in the corner. However, as soon as the first bomb of the jump hits you, you should switch to holding straight up. This is with the same camera angle as normal Vent Shaft. Perhaps there are better directions to hold though.

Trebor

2004-09-22 11:37:44 pm

Nice job guys.

I finally made time to watch all these vids, and, I must say, it's looking a lot more hopeful than I had first thought.

Keep it up. Hopefully, I can join in the fun after I finish this run.

smilingjack13

2004-09-23 04:42:47 pm

I just wanted to say that, in Vent Shaft, maybe my corner strategy isn't quite as good as I though it was. I was doing the normal bomb strat earlier though, and I had one close jump that I rewound and paused. At the peak of it, the tops of both of Samus's boots were above the ledge. It wouldn't surprise me if you could reach the ledge by doing the normal strat.

kip

2004-09-23 06:35:49 pm

Do you have a vid of this? It might be useful to try and emulate.

I had my own attempt earlier that looked like either a successful one or near miss... the problem is I wasn't close enough by the ledge when I unmorphed. Sometimes it seems like you get much better bomb jumps if you're anywhere but lined up with the ledge. All of my closest attempts were also with the camera facing the other way.

In geo there was something I noticed today. For spinner 1 and 2 there is an invisible ledge right above the hole:

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/geo_invisible_spinner_ledge.avi

I tried to use this to dash from 1 to 2 with 1 raised, but there is a height problem even if 2 is raised (so that you need less height but more distance). It's a shame, because we might actually be able to finish our no space jump games if this is/was possible somehow.

In that video I jump straight up a lot and touch the pillar to show that you can get stuck anywhere above the invisible ledge, but it seems that you can't actually land anywhere higher to start the dash. I also try to dash in midair while stuck, but it doesn't work. Maybe someone else has an idea to make this work, it would be great if it did.

Do you have a vid of this? It might be useful to try and emulate.

I had my own attempt earlier that looked like either a successful one or near miss... the problem is I wasn't close enough by the ledge when I unmorphed. Sometimes it seems like you get much better bomb jumps if you're anywhere but lined up with the ledge. All of my closest attempts were also with the camera facing the other way.

In geo there was something I noticed today. For spinner 1 and 2 there is an invisible ledge right above the hole:

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/geo_invisible_spinner_ledge.avi

I tried to use this to dash from 1 to 2 with 1 raised, but there is a height problem even if 2 is raised (so that you need less height but more distance). It's a shame, because we might actually be able to finish our no space jump games if this is/was possible somehow.

In that video I jump straight up a lot and touch the pillar to show that you can get stuck anywhere above the invisible ledge, but it seems that you can't actually land anywhere higher to start the dash. I also try to dash in midair while stuck, but it doesn't work. Maybe someone else has an idea to make this work, it would be great if it did.