21% Topic

2004-09-23 09:38:28 pm

Quote from kip:

Do you have a vid of this? It might be useful to try and emulate.

I can make a vid if you would like, but my bombing wasn't anything special. I just tried to lay the last three bombs earlier than usual so they'd get under me more. I'd say the actual height of the jump was only just slightly higher than your VS trial 5 vid, where the top of Samus's right boot was even or just barely below the ledge.

And that's a cool Geo Core discovery... However, you would still think that the spinners have to be raised. I was messing around the other day with the first spinner, and the furthest up the pole I got it was three quarters of a rotation away from being all the way up. Has anyone gotten it further than that?

kip

2004-09-24 12:02:31 am

hmm, maybe the spinner vid would be cooler, to see if it's as close as it sounds.

Anyway, this is a bit unrelated at the moment, but I figure I should put it here so I don't have to explain it anymore. I was curious if you guys ever tried to go through Twin Fires Tunnel in reverse without space jump (and gravity suit of course). The deep lava kills you very quickly if you try to just jump through, but I've been thinking a dash off something (like a puffer) from Twin Fires might make it over the lava. I only tried that once so far, and I got pretty far with it.

The reason for bringing this up is it would improve the route if it was possible. The reason Ruined Courtyard used to be a problem was because you had to go up the room to get to the pirate base, where you would need to shut off the forcefield in Research Lab Hydra. If you didn't do this after getting wave, you would be stuck later on after the first mines visit (since TFT hasn't been done yet, and the Thardus tricks didn't exist at the time/may not be possible with one jump).

Shutting off the forcefield is supposed to let you go through the pirate base in reverse after the first mines visit, letting you go on with the game. Ruined Courtyard is a real pain to do though, so TFT would likely be easier if it's possible. Another possibility is maybe doing the Thardus dash or space jump with one jump, which would eliminate the need for both TFT and Ruined Courtyard. I seriously doubt the dash with one jump though; maybe the space jump could still work.

I don't think this is very important at the moment, but in addition to geo and vent shaft, it's something to think about.

hmm, maybe the spinner vid would be cooler, to see if it's as close as it sounds.

Anyway, this is a bit unrelated at the moment, but I figure I should put it here so I don't have to explain it anymore. I was curious if you guys ever tried to go through Twin Fires Tunnel in reverse without space jump (and gravity suit of course). The deep lava kills you very quickly if you try to just jump through, but I've been thinking a dash off something (like a puffer) from Twin Fires might make it over the lava. I only tried that once so far, and I got pretty far with it.

The reason for bringing this up is it would improve the route if it was possible. The reason Ruined Courtyard used to be a problem was because you had to go up the room to get to the pirate base, where you would need to shut off the forcefield in Research Lab Hydra. If you didn't do this after getting wave, you would be stuck later on after the first mines visit (since TFT hasn't been done yet, and the Thardus tricks didn't exist at the time/may not be possible with one jump).

Shutting off the forcefield is supposed to let you go through the pirate base in reverse after the first mines visit, letting you go on with the game. Ruined Courtyard is a real pain to do though, so TFT would likely be easier if it's possible. Another possibility is maybe doing the Thardus dash or space jump with one jump, which would eliminate the need for both TFT and Ruined Courtyard. I seriously doubt the dash with one jump though; maybe the space jump could still work.

I don't think this is very important at the moment, but in addition to geo and vent shaft, it's something to think about.

Andrew Mills

2004-09-24 07:00:54 pm

Strategy Guide Writer

Well, according to BoostR (over at Samus.co.uk) the OP room door at the top is NOT locked until the battle triggers. Now, if Vent Shaft is looking like an impossibility (which I doubt it is, but you never know), then you can get into SW26 (MQB) and most defanitely make it PAST OP's room without triggering off the battle (and thus the lock on the exit door) and you can either:

i). Door Warp back in at the top and proceed to PPC as per normal, expect you have to wade through Phazon, with 99 health...

OR...

ii). Take the REALLLLLY slow option (unless a bombing spot is found as there was in Crossway) and float ALLL the way up to the top door of PPC and door warp in there.

NO SJ needed for any of that. No use for recording (obviously), but hey, it;s a GUARANTEED method of getting around Vent Shaft should it prove to be more hassle than it's worth...

Just some food for thought, that's all.

Sam-Mag

2004-09-25 01:55:31 am

Can a 21% run really be done? Shocked

I hope this is possible! :)

It would be cool too see for myself!

GameCube04

2004-09-25 04:05:02 am

I tried Vent Shaft for about 10 minutes tonight, and I had an attempt where literally the top of Samus' boot was the only thing preventing me from clearing the ledge. I was using the normal bomb jump, and I really don't see why this wouldn't be possible with a little effort. I wasn't recording unfortunately, but would it really be worth it to capture a failed attempt anyway?

I was also able to make the Main Quarry dash in one jump without SJ. Wasn't recording when I did this either, but it shouldn't be too hard to replicate on tape. This will certainly make 21% runs easier for the Phazon Mines.

nate

2004-09-25 09:48:41 am

Quote from GameCube04:

I wasn't recording unfortunately, but would it really be worth it to capture a failed attempt anyway?

not really, unless you want to analyze the bomb timing for potential advantages in future attempts (decreasing the time in between to achieve more velocity/height, i would imagine).

Quote from GameCube04:

I was also able to make the Main Quarry dash in one jump without SJ. Wasn't recording when I did this either, but it shouldn't be too hard to replicate on tape. This will certainly make 21% runs easier for the Phazon Mines.

so long as you're playing 0-00 ntsc, of course. ;)

bartendorsparky

2004-09-25 11:07:16 am

always move fast

I was working on the upper part of geo yesterday, and i found something that may be of use.

http://www.metroid2002.com/bartendorsparky/geo_21_upper_a.avi

Basically, you get on an invisible ledge on one of the spider tracks, and then dash to the block.
Im sure that you can do the dash in one jump, and 99% sure you can do some kinda of bomb jump onto the platform, as a dbj type thing nearly makes it.

Really, if a way can be found to get from block 1 > block 2 without morphing, then the upper part is solved.

Also, im not really sure if this will amount to anything, but at the very least it is another way of early plasma.

http://www.metroid2002.com/bartendorsparky/geo_track_jump_thingy.avi

you can do a track jump on a different spider track, and then dash over to the door. Maybe, if you can somehow get to the spot without sj, you could dash off a puddle spore or something and make it on the second block. I doubt it, but who knows?

arkarian

2004-09-25 11:18:29 am

red chamber dream

Hopefully, if a 21% run is even possible, it will be done before Echoes comes out, because then everyone is going to be playing Echoes and not the first Prime. I would like to see a 21% run done...in the meantime, I'm going to go and try that upper part of geocore.

nate

2004-09-25 11:31:23 am

Quote from Arkarian:

everyone is going to be playing Echoes and not the first Prime.

just like how everyone plays zero mission and not fusion now, right?

bartendorsparky

2004-09-25 11:34:43 am

always move fast

well, looks like one room left. =)

http://www.metroid2002.com/bartendorsparky/vent_shaft_no_sj.avi

I think this is just the regular 22% jump, but it may be a little different or something, i dunno.

Anyway, now its only geo...

so what we need is:

a) getting up to the second spider block unmorphed, or getting from the second/third block to the third, while morphed

b) either:
a) getting from 2 -> 3, with neither raised,
or
b) getting from 1 -> 2, with 1 raised, and 2 either way

c) most likely: some way to raise spinner 1 and 2

i think thats it...so get on it!

BoostR

2004-09-25 11:58:23 am

Awesomezorz. >_>

One room left.

Sorry for not following everything about 21% Geo, but:

How will you get into the bomb slot?
I can't even get to it with the second spinner raised. :P A dash jump COULD make it to the bomb slot, but...I highly doubt it. (Unless it's from a new ledge) Even if you could, it would be insanely difficult.

How will you get to the top of the third spinner?
The ledge on the track up is slanted-you can't land after bomb jumping. (I'm thinking wasting one bomb, double bomb jumping up to the ledge, leaving you with two left, then using the timing of the horizontal bomb jump to not touch the ground again.)

Any ideas to get from 1 > 2? Or a raised 1 to 2? Or a raised 1 to a raised two (if you fall down)? :P

bartendorsparky

2004-09-25 12:04:01 pm

always move fast

im not entirely sure, but i think someone...(tzyr maybe?) got from 3 >2 with a solr frenzy, with it raised. Samething thing with the spider track, i think someone got it, but again im not sure. Those are only the ones i know nobody got. But dont take my words as fact, i dont know a lot of stuff as well. I guess this would mean the platforms would need to be raised...

And for 1 >2, you could try kips ledge thingy...or some bombjump or something, ive no idea. I found a ledge above the box and pillar, but im not sure if you could even get to it, or if it can be used to get onto the top of 1, but its a possibility.

BTW, the ledge is above the grating thing, if you wanna try to get to it.

kip

2004-09-25 12:21:19 pm

Quote:

I was also able to make the Main Quarry dash in one jump without SJ.

Yeah, this is known. If it wasn't possible, Ore Processing would be a problem room, as right now there isn't a way up from the bottom (it remains a problem for PAL, as well as Phendrana's Edge for now due to the scan dash). But since it is possible... go starting from top floor.

elyscape

2004-09-25 12:26:31 pm

Quote from bartendorsparky:

im not entirely sure, but i think someone...(tzyr maybe?) got from 3 >2 with a solr frenzy, with it raised. Samething thing with the spider track, i think someone got it, but again im not sure. Those are only the ones i know nobody got. But dont take my words as fact, i dont know a lot of stuff as well. I guess this would mean the platforms would need to be raised...

And for 1 >2, you could try kips ledge thingy...or some bombjump or something, ive no idea. I found a ledge above the box and pillar, but im not sure if you could even get to it, or if it can be used to get onto the top of 1, but its a possibility.

BTW, the ledge is above the grating thing, if you wanna try to get to it.

What's an solr frenzy?

Ekarderif

2004-09-25 01:16:38 pm

solr frenzy is the nickname for a ladder 3BJM. It's quite annoying to do since the unmorph is a bit weird, but it's invaluable for a no space jump game.

Edit: Really nice Sparky! I guess I'll get on top of Geothermal Core now. Granted I won't be under ideal 22% conditions, but at least I can find some things right? Off to learn the horizontal bomb jump...

smilingjack13

2004-09-25 02:55:09 pm

Bartendor: Awesome job on Vent Shaft! I'm thrilled that it's officially solved. It looks like the person who makes the next big discovery or two could solve the 21% game.

GreenMamba

2004-09-25 03:25:00 pm

What luck, there's french fry stuck in my beard.

*adds the trick to a list of tricks that he wishes he could do but never will be able to*

Ekarderif

2004-09-25 07:27:13 pm

Nothing to do directly with a 21% game, but I got up the Frigate Crash Site backwards without Space Jump. It'll help in speed runs if we ever attain 21% (which looks quite promising).

You can DBJM up to an invisible platform to the left of the standard rock thing where you normally L-Lock Spring Jump. From there a simple jump gets up to that actual point.

Dash-jump right using the right Grapple point and press down-right as soon as you initiate it. Hopefully it'll bend the jump just enough so you slightly ghetto up to wall and land in the standard ghetto jump area.

Since the floor is slanted, you'll have to do a weird DBJ while pushing into the wall here or else you'll fall off. Bomb 1 is normal (duh) but bomb 2 you need to lay so that you hit it while you're coming down (not sure but I say about half way before it explodes). Bomb 3 is a bit lower than the peak of the explosion of bomb 1 (about 3/4. Dunno exactly because I've only done it once).

From here, a TBJ will land you to the door. This is actually the easiest part since you'll be hard pressed to fall down from here.

I'll be working on Geothermal Core some time tonight.

Nothing to do directly with a 21% game, but I got up the Frigate Crash Site backwards without Space Jump. It'll help in speed runs if we ever attain 21% (which looks quite promising).

You can DBJM up to an invisible platform to the left of the standard rock thing where you normally L-Lock Spring Jump. From there a simple jump gets up to that actual point.

Dash-jump right using the right Grapple point and press down-right as soon as you initiate it. Hopefully it'll bend the jump just enough so you slightly ghetto up to wall and land in the standard ghetto jump area.

Since the floor is slanted, you'll have to do a weird DBJ while pushing into the wall here or else you'll fall off. Bomb 1 is normal (duh) but bomb 2 you need to lay so that you hit it while you're coming down (not sure but I say about half way before it explodes). Bomb 3 is a bit lower than the peak of the explosion of bomb 1 (about 3/4. Dunno exactly because I've only done it once).

From here, a TBJ will land you to the door. This is actually the easiest part since you'll be hard pressed to fall down from here.

I'll be working on Geothermal Core some time tonight.

ajbolt89

2004-09-25 09:44:48 pm

lol no way

I'm so glad so much progress is being made on this, because while it's unlikely I'll ever attempt one (much less complete one) it's still really cool. You guys are crazy good.

smilingjack13

2004-09-25 11:33:38 pm

We have to remain optimistic that there is a way to get through Geo Core. It would be cruel to have come so close just to get turned away.

I made a vid of the furthest up that I have been able to get the first spinner.

http://www.metroid2002.com/smilingjack13/geo_core_spinner_1.avi

I have gotten the spinner this high many times; it's nothing rare. It's only three quarters of a rotation away from being all the way to the top. I have tried to analyze the various stuff I have noticed about the spinners, but I haven't been able to draw anything useful from it. However, I'll list some of the stuff I have noticed:

- Once you get "locked" into the spinner, the spinner only goes up if the morph ball keeps moving.
- As you get "locked" into spinner 1, holding bottomright seems to result in the best height.
- As you get "locked" into spinner 2, holding bottomright or bottomleft seems to get you the best height. However, bottomleft doesn't work for spinner 1.
- Before you get "locked" into either spinner, upperright or upperleft seem to be the two best directions to hold. I haven't tried holding up very much.
- The number of bombs you place and where you place them to get knocked out of a spinner or whatever does not seem to affect the spinner's height.

I have tried some crazy stuff, but nothing seems to help get the spinners any higher... I've tested spinner 1 a lot more than spinner 2, BTW.

EDIT: On a file where I had the boost ball, I noticed that after you boost up spinner 1, you cannot boost while rolling around on the platform around spinner 1. I found this very strange. I don't think it has any signifigance though.

We have to remain optimistic that there is a way to get through Geo Core. It would be cruel to have come so close just to get turned away.

I made a vid of the furthest up that I have been able to get the first spinner.

[url]http://www.metroid2002.com/smilingjack13/geo_core_spinner_1.avi[/url]

I have gotten the spinner this high many times; it's nothing rare. It's only three quarters of a rotation away from being all the way to the top. I have tried to analyze the various stuff I have noticed about the spinners, but I haven't been able to draw anything useful from it. However, I'll list some of the stuff I have noticed:

- Once you get "locked" into the spinner, the spinner only goes up if the morph ball keeps moving.
- As you get "locked" into spinner 1, holding bottomright seems to result in the best height.
- As you get "locked" into spinner 2, holding bottomright or bottomleft seems to get you the best height. However, bottomleft doesn't work for spinner 1.
- Before you get "locked" into either spinner, upperright or upperleft seem to be the two best directions to hold. I haven't tried holding up very much.
- The number of bombs you place and where you place them to get knocked out of a spinner or whatever does not seem to affect the spinner's height.

I have tried some crazy stuff, but nothing seems to help get the spinners any higher... I've tested spinner 1 a lot more than spinner 2, BTW.

EDIT: On a file where I had the boost ball, I noticed that after you boost up spinner 1, you cannot boost while rolling around on the platform around spinner 1. I found this very strange. I don't think it has any signifigance though.

BoostR

2004-09-26 01:16:59 am

<_<

That's on the second, too. Maybe even the third. I guess the platforms are just very glitchy or something.

trh

2004-09-26 11:15:22 am

Quote from smilingjack13:

EDIT: On a file where I had the boost ball, I noticed that after you boost up spinner 1, you cannot boost while rolling around on the platform around spinner 1. I found this very strange. I don't think it has any signifigance though.

Thats to prevent the player from boosting of the platform.

nate

2004-09-26 11:37:11 am

Quote from TRH:

Quote from smilingjack13:

EDIT: On a file where I had the boost ball, I noticed that after you boost up spinner 1, you cannot boost while rolling around on the platform around spinner 1. I found this very strange. I don't think it has any signifigance though.

Thats to prevent the player from boosting of the platform.

insane. i've never noticed that before. go retro.

Ekarderif

2004-09-26 01:33:07 pm

Well, with new information from GameCube04, it seems that the "HBJ" gives the most height of all the bomb jumps. Observe: http://www.metroid2002.com/gamecube04/gc04_wall_hbj.avi

You can barely make that with a wall TBJM and yet he's done it without the morph easily. TRH also says that an HBJ/3BJ gives more height than a standard 3BJ/4BJ. So much for horizontal eh?

GreenMamba

2004-09-26 05:07:36 pm

What luck, there's french fry stuck in my beard.

Yeah, why is it called a Horizontal Bomb Jump, anyways?