Unlimited Possibilities

2008-08-07 04:49:36 pm

Prime 1 always seemed more breakable to me. I know that game alot better though. In Prime 3 their attepts to eliminate sequence breaking just seemed to suck alot of fun out of it.

Master ZED

2008-08-07 05:36:47 pm

Quote from brinstar:

thats some quite cool glitches man, btw, wouldnt that mean the testers of the game have done a bad job lol? cause like, if theres glitches, that means the game hasnt really been tested properly O.O

Testers do things that a normal player would over the course of playing a game. There's no way in hell they'd find IS. No one can be blamed for this monster showing up.

Quote from DragonRidley:

Prime 1 always seemed more breakable to me. I know that game alot better though.

That might be true in your experience, but to me, it's Echoes. It's like they learned their lessons from MP1, and then halfway through development, chucked it all out the window because of impending time constraints.

Quote from DragonRidley:

In Prime 3 their attepts to eliminate sequence breaking just seemed to suck alot of fun out of it.

It is pretty much the Fusion of the trilogy.

Demonic18

2008-08-07 07:41:50 pm

Master zed just said everything I was trying to say, a lot more coherently and concisely, lol.

Corruption became much more of an FPS because it led you everywhere. You didn't backtrack because you had to find a way to go forward, you bactracked because someone told you to. They completely removed the adventure portion of the game. That in itself allowed them to lock it down better because they knew exactly the route the player had to take, any other routes were closed down easily because you weren't allowed to explore.

And it did very much suck the fun out of it, because you couldn't return to it and complete it differently like Prime 1 and 2, you had to take the same route and the same item order. There was none of the variation we were used to, which is why your regular gamers and magazine reviewers thought it was great and SBers thought it sucked Retro's left testicle.

Phazar

2008-08-15 10:37:07 am

...

Quote from DragonRidley:

Prime 1 always seemed more breakable to me.

That's why it's my favorite 3D Metroid game! SM vs. MP is debatable for me...it's hard to tell which is better.

UchihaSasuke

2008-08-15 06:45:38 pm

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

Quote from Phazar:

Quote from DragonRidley:

Prime 1 always seemed more breakable to me.

That's why it's my favorite 3D Metroid game! SM vs. MP is debatable for me...it's hard to tell which is better.

as i see it, the game is perceived as more breakable because you can do everything out of order after you get past the frigate. in mp2, there's quite a big chunk of linear gameplay before you can start really breaking it apart.
in the end, mp2 is more broken mainly because of the SA since it allows for a really big amount of SWs compared to mp1. also, some items become skippable with SWs (this wasn't possible in mp1)

Caveberry

2008-08-17 04:34:06 am

getting there...

I attribute MP1's breakabilty to the time constraints that were put upon it. MP was rushed out to meet a holiday release date. There was probably not a lot of time for extensive testing, and as a result the game came out with many awesome oversights. In result of the time constraints I feel like MP was a magical moment in gaming history, where the planets aligned in such a manner that Metroid fans everywhere would have a chance to rejoice. I have doubts that such a beautiful accident will happen again in the near future.

By the way UchihaSasuke, I love your quote Wink

arkarian

2008-08-17 09:23:43 am

red chamber dream

Metroid Prime wasn't any more rushed than the average video game. Retro spent around three years on it, which is actually longer than most. It's Echoes that was rushed.

UchihaSasuke

2008-08-17 02:52:17 pm

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

but mp1 had a lot of massive changes in that time. it went from n64 to gc supposedly (i don't know if it was confirmed). i think they even switched it from 3rd person to 1st person view. that alone makes extra work to rework the existing stuff to fit the new perspective, etc.
mp2 didn't have any major changes in it's development. it had less dev time but at the same time, less experimentation so the raw time employed for level design and testing could have been the same between the 2 games.
at the same time, mp1 didn't have multiplayer. imo, multiplayer was what really took away time from the dev time instead of a short dev cycle.

arkarian

2008-08-17 02:59:38 pm

red chamber dream

Are you kidding? Seems like Retro threw the multiplayer in at the last minute, spending barely any time on it at all.

Demonic18

2008-08-17 03:27:39 pm

I still don't understand why they put it in at all. It was absolute crap, and the idea of multiplayer metroid is almost against the original design of the series, i.e. you are all alone exploring alien worlds.

Seems like the basic thought process was "wait a minute, loads of popular games have multiplayer, we should have one too" *bolts one on*

DragonRidley

2008-08-17 03:45:38 pm

I'm still mystified as to why they didn't take scan dashing out of Echoes if they took it out of all the later versions of Prime 1.

arkarian

2008-08-17 03:54:45 pm

red chamber dream

There is no Scan Dash in Echoes.

Master ZED

2008-08-17 04:20:38 pm

Quote from Arkarian:

There is no Scan Dash in Echoes.

Scan dashing was only ever removed from Prime 1 after the subtle release of version 1.1. Prime 2 saw its restoration.

rekameohs

2008-08-17 04:22:25 pm

Anywhere, everywhere

Quote from Master ZED:

Quote from Arkarian:

There is no Scan Dash in Echoes.

Scan dashing was only ever removed from Prime 1 after the subtle release of version 1.1. Prime 2 saw its restoration.

Execpt that Echoes' scan dash is nothing compared to the Prime scan dash.

Master ZED

2008-08-17 04:54:01 pm

Quote from rekameohs:

Execpt that Echoes' scan dash is nothing compared to the Prime scan dash.

That doesn't change the fact that the wording implies it doesn't exist. The power of said dash isn't what I took issue with.

arkarian

2008-08-17 04:54:17 pm

red chamber dream

Dash Jump != Scan Dash.

Master ZED

2008-08-17 05:05:47 pm

Quote from Arkarian:

Dash Jump != Scan Dash.

Sorry, but if the Scan Visor is used for the dash like when skipping Grapple Beam, it's a scan dash. Just because it isn't as powerful as before doesn't mean the name should be changed.

Bolognab

2008-08-17 05:14:17 pm

Quote:

I still don't understand why they put it in at all. It was absolute crap, and the idea of multiplayer metroid is almost against the original design of the series, i.e. you are all alone exploring alien worlds.

I have a feeling you would despise a certain fangame in the making. Rolling Eyes

And I always thought dash jump and scan dash were the same thing...i used the terms synonymously.

arkarian

2008-08-17 05:31:28 pm

red chamber dream

Quote from Master ZED:

Quote from Arkarian:

Dash Jump != Scan Dash.

Sorry, but if the Scan Visor is used for the dash like when skipping Grapple Beam, it's a scan dash. Just because it isn't as powerful as before doesn't mean the name should be changed.

Right, but can't you do the exact same dash without the Scan Visor as well? I might be entirely wrong, as I don't play much Echoes, but according to the site it can be done with the Combat Visor, too.

Master ZED

2008-08-17 05:38:23 pm

Quote from Bolognab:

And I always thought dash jump and scan dash were the same thing...i used the terms synonymously.

I didn't even know the term dash jump exists. I think that's what I would call it whenever my dashes in Echoes suddenly become jumps for no goddamn reason other than the fact that I am retarded at dashing in all forms save SJF. I can't speed run any Prime game because of that deficiency.

Quote:

Right, but can't you do the exact same dash without the Scan Visor as well? I might be entirely wrong, as I don't play much Echoes, but according to the site it can be done with the Combat Visor, too.

That would be a combat dash though. I could only see dash jump being said in situations where the type doesn't matter, but I could easily see some poor slob trying to combat dash across Grand Abyss as a result of the vague term. It's better to have a bit of clarity TBH and just specify the dash type, whether it be based in possibility or ease.

arkarian

2008-08-17 05:46:09 pm

red chamber dream

In Prime the only lock–on dash is the Scan Dash. From what I can gather, in Echoes it was discovered that you could do it from any visor (and it's performed differently), so the term was broadened to Dash Jump. I'm not into Echoes speed running, so I wasn't aware people called it a Scan Dash or Combat Dash depending on the situation, but either way, the 'Scan Dash' in Echoes != the Scan Dash in Prime.

Master ZED

2008-08-17 06:09:33 pm

Quote from Arkarian:

In Prime the only lock–on dash is the Scan Dash.

Disregarding everything else (because *again* I'm not comparing the dash abilities of the two games, that's irrelevant), how can you even say that? Of course you can dash around enemies in specific situations the same way you would a scan point (say if you use a Metroid in MQA to skip Spider Ball). The visor you use is the only difference, and in Prime 1, it's *usually* the Scan Visor. The dash itself doesn't change depending on the visor, but where you can use it does.

As long as you know the term is still applicable to Prime 2 though, that's all I really care about. A scan dash is a dash done with the Scan Visor active. It may be neutered in Echoes, but that doesn't mean it isn't a scan dash anymore.

arkarian

2008-08-17 07:38:40 pm

red chamber dream

Yeah, you're right, I was confused there. For some reason I thought only the Scan Visor could be used for dashes in Prime, but of course that's not the case (it's just what I always use): PAL players wouldn't be able to get SJF otherwise.

Clearly I need to play Prime again; it's been years.

Gu3st

2008-08-17 10:09:18 pm

Jagger ftw

metroid prime 2 can be breaked even more, its just hard.... (grand abyss)

UchihaSasuke

2008-08-19 06:05:00 pm

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

the dashes are done virtually the same way in both games. the difference is that the extra big speed boost from mp1's dashes is gone in mp2. the thing is that the devs didn't remove the R-dash and it makes possible to do mp2's scan dashes. in mp2 you actually use R-dashes because the old mp1 scan dash (release L after dashing) loses all of it's speed when you release L. mp1 also has R-dashes but they're slower than your standard scan dash because you stop when you do them and have to do more set up. R-dash merely keeps your max dash speed during the entire dash when you hold R.

to sum up things, scan dashing with R-dash is in both games and scan dashing with only L works only in mp1 because your dash speed is kept after releasing L.

the main advantage of scan dashes over combat dashes is that you don't need enemies for scan dashes since practically everywhere you can use a scan point. most of the combat dashes exist because they're usually faster than doing set up with a scannable object that might be in an awkward position. they also depend entirely in the room set-up.

the dashes are done virtually the same way in both games. the difference is that the extra big speed boost from mp1's dashes is gone in mp2. the thing is that the devs didn't remove the R-dash and it makes possible to do mp2's scan dashes. in mp2 you actually use R-dashes because the old mp1 scan dash (release L after dashing) loses all of it's speed when you release L. mp1 also has R-dashes but they're slower than your standard scan dash because you stop when you do them and have to do more set up. R-dash merely keeps your max dash speed during the entire dash when you hold R.

to sum up things, scan dashing with R-dash is in both games and scan dashing with only L works only in mp1 because your dash speed is kept after releasing L.

the main advantage of scan dashes over combat dashes is that you don't need enemies for scan dashes since practically everywhere you can use a scan point. most of the combat dashes exist because they're usually faster than doing set up with a scannable object that might be in an awkward position. they also depend entirely in the room set-up.