Speed tricks topic

2004-12-09 11:43:00 pm

Well I couldn't get to the e-tank ledge In WG even though I had Grapple. I see this as good news for getting across the WTA gap-- it is (to me at least) strong evidence that terminal falls and transporting and stuff is hardcoded from the start, not based on triggers.

Maybe try throwing in one of those newfangled "langles" or something in WTA...

Red Scarlet

2004-12-09 11:45:43 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

If you are getting stuck while holding L in Watch Station Access..try hitting the jump button like mad; the 2 places that happened for me was when I was trying to get up to the non-existant turret at the entrance of SF, and when trying to jump up on those hammer things in Main Research; both of those places I got stuck with the L button and was able to jump sometimes.

Morgenstern

2004-12-09 11:45:52 pm

Cool, I'll take a look at it tonight, I have a save near there before screw attack. Also, interesting idea BoostR.

kip

2004-12-10 12:31:54 am

A few new things I want to note here: I lowered the grapple points, then jumped/grappled/jumped to the tank side and fell (never using the second grapple point), and reappeared at the tank side. It's hard to say that lowering the grapple points doesn't enable a trigger of its own though. For what it's worth, you don't appear on the tank's side unless you really get the distance; same goes for screw attacking. You can't just fall at any random spot that isn't close to the gyro side.

I also tried the space jump/dash in my file that has screw attack, and still couldn't get to the tank's side. Yesterday, I was trying for hours in my file before spider ball... so the fact that I can't even do it in the screw attack file, even after lowering the grapple points is more evidence toward it being just distance. I just wish there was a moonjump code or something, then you could fall right next to the tank before spider, and that would say definitively whether it's distance.

Here are the rest of the vids, so watch and tell me what you guys think of the comparative distance etc (updated my previous post with these also):

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/wsa_screw_attack.avi
http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/wsa_grapple.avi
http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/wsa_dash.avi
http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/wsa_space_jump.avi

A few new things I want to note here: I lowered the grapple points, then jumped/grappled/jumped to the tank side and fell (never using the second grapple point), and reappeared at the tank side. It's hard to say that lowering the grapple points doesn't enable a trigger of its own though. For what it's worth, you don't appear on the tank's side unless you really get the distance; same goes for screw attacking. You can't just fall at any random spot that isn't close to the gyro side.

I also tried the space jump/dash in my file that has screw attack, and still couldn't get to the tank's side. Yesterday, I was trying for hours in my file before spider ball... so the fact that I can't even do it in the screw attack file, even after lowering the grapple points is more evidence toward it being just distance. I just wish there was a moonjump code or something, then you could fall right next to the tank before spider, and that would say definitively whether it's distance.

Here are the rest of the vids, so watch and tell me what you guys think of the comparative distance etc (updated my previous post with these also):

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/wsa_screw_attack.avi 
http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/wsa_grapple.avi
http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/wsa_dash.avi
http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/wsa_space_jump.avi

Solr_Flare

2004-12-10 01:40:22 am

I mentioned this on IRC, but looking at all the Vids Kip collected, I'm almost positive it is distance. But the trick is:

You have to get "so far" before you have fallen down too far into the pit.

In other words, I think either halfway between the e=tank side ledge and the Terminal fall point, or right before the terminal fall point(where screen goes white) is the last place the game checks your distance to the ledge and decides whether to spawn you on the e-tank side or not.

That being the case, if you look at Kip's dash jump, at the "bottom" he makes it as far as the screw attack and grapple jumps but he doesn't get that far high enough up. So, if we can get that distance a little bit higher, that should do it.

I suggested maybe trying to jump outwards a little bit before hitting the dash.

kip

2004-12-10 03:15:17 am

Here's an idea Solr thought of.

Someone with an AR use the screw attack code to do the same thing as my screw attack video, before spider ball. As long as getting screw attack through AR doesn't raise a trigger, this should work in place of moonjump for finding out whether it's distance. Neither of us have an AR so we can't try it, I hope someone else does. Remember that you need really good distance to land at the tank ledge, even though it's easy with screw attack, so don't give up after one try.

Solr_Flare

2004-12-10 06:00:56 am

I did some map analysis of Kip's insane dash jump, and his findings elsewhere in the game pretty much prove it. We are being decieved as to how far horizontally he is travelling. And it most likely *is* a distance thing.

Ok here we go. In this crude ascii image we are looking "down" at the pit floor.

Code:

--------------------------------------------
|.................................x........|  etank
--------------------------------------------

If you hit the "floor" past the x, then you spawn on the etank side.

When kip Screw jumped and spawned on the etank side, he landed here:

Code:

--------------------------------------------
|.................................x.0.....|  etank
--------------------------------------------

When he grappled and landed on the e-tank side, he landed here:

Code:

--------------------------------------------
|.................................x.....0.|  etank
--------------------------------------------

When he Dash Jumped he landed here:

Code:

--------------------------------------------
|.................................x........|  etank
--------------------------------------------
.....................................0

He flew outside the map a bit to the left. See...here is what is really happening. We are now looking at the pit from a side view

Code:

|..0........................................................|
|........0..................................................|
|.............0.............................................|
|.................0.........................................|
|.....................0.....................................|
|..........................0................................|
|.............................0.............................|
|.................................0.........................|
|---------------------------------------0--------x----------|   <--- floor

Thats where kip is hitting the "floor" when he is dash jumping. It seems like he is falling hella forever because he is shooting down rapidly at an angle at crazy speeds. But he actually isn't really clearing much more, if any horizontal distance than a space jump.

What I suggested for Kip to try next was to jump "outwards" from the top then dash...so he stretches the horizontal distance he covers a bit more. If he can get a little extra distance and height he might clear it. But the scan dash on its own is falling way short, and probably won't have much if any real practical use for SBing purposes in less we are way the hell above something.

I did some map analysis of Kip's insane dash jump, and his findings elsewhere in the game pretty much prove it.  We are being decieved as to how far horizontally he is travelling.  And it most likely *is* a distance thing.

Ok here we go.  In this crude ascii image we are looking "down" at the pit floor.
[code]
--------------------------------------------
|.................................x........|  etank
--------------------------------------------
[/code]

If you hit the "floor" past the x, then you spawn on the etank side.

When kip Screw jumped and spawned on the etank side, he landed here:
[code]
--------------------------------------------
|.................................x.0.....|  etank
--------------------------------------------
[/code]
When he grappled and landed on the e-tank side, he landed here:
[code]
--------------------------------------------
|.................................x.....0.|  etank
--------------------------------------------
[/code]
When he [u]Dash Jumped[/u] he landed here:
[code]
--------------------------------------------
|.................................x........|  etank
--------------------------------------------
.....................................0
[/code]
He flew outside the map a bit to the left.  See...here is what is really happening.  We are now looking at the pit from a side view
[code]
|..0........................................................|
|........0..................................................|
|.............0.............................................|
|.................0.........................................|
|.....................0.....................................|
|..........................0................................|
|.............................0.............................|
|.................................0.........................|
|---------------------------------------0--------x----------|   <--- floor
[/code]
Thats where kip is hitting the "floor"  when he is dash jumping.  It seems like he is falling hella forever because he is shooting down rapidly at an angle at crazy speeds.  But he actually isn't really clearing much more, if any horizontal distance than a space jump.

What I suggested for Kip to try next was to jump "outwards" from the top then dash...so he stretches the horizontal distance he covers a bit more.  If he can get a little extra distance and height he might clear it.  But the scan dash on its own is falling way short, and probably won't have much if any real practical use for SBing purposes in less we are way the hell above something.

Solr_Flare

2004-12-10 06:15:00 am

For reference, if this were MP1 his scan dash would have looked like this:

Code:

|..0....0...0...0..........0...0....0.....0..................|
|......................0.....................0...............|
|..............................................0.............|
|...............................................0............|
|................................................0...........|
|.................................................0..........|
|..................................................0.........|
|....................................................0.......|
|-----------------------------------------------x-----0------|   <--- floor

bloop'R

2004-12-10 08:20:10 am

I discovered a little (perhaps useless) trick, but not an that what SolR and Kip were talkin about.

I don't know whether it was mentioned here before:
(If it was: excuse me)

Torvus Bog -> Abandoned Worksite
There's a missle expansion which u can reach without the GB. If u stand on the platform facing the exp. on the other side, just jump right into the morphball track. From there a good SJ will do it. It's tricky, but possible. I've done it.
I am not able to make a video of it. Maybe someone else could do.

It won't increase ur speed time, because goin' through abandoned worksite with GB ist more speedy than my tactic. But u don't have to take a look at this room twice in ur run if u haven't got the GB yet.

Frozen Mr. Toastbrot

2004-12-10 08:33:09 am

When jumping over (or into) some other terminal falls I had the impression that I always spawned on the side where I last touched something before the terminal fall triggered. I made some sketches to explain it.

The green line resembles the jump. The blue line is where the terminal fall triggers. J is where you start the jump. The red x is the spot where you touch the wall before the terminal fall is triggerd. R is the respawn point after the terminal fall.

Frito

2004-12-10 10:39:34 am

If you watch kip's screw attack vid, he never actually touches the other side, but he still spawns at the tank.

Yoshi348

2004-12-10 10:53:48 am

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

I edited Solr's posts to use code tags so that it comes out right on non-smartDark skins. (Only smartDark uses a mono-spaced font.)

Morgenstern

2004-12-10 11:23:53 am

Quote from Frito:

If you watch kip's screw attack vid, he never actually touches the other side, but he still spawns at the tank.

Yeah, and in Sandcanyon in Agon, after getting the powerbomb in the middle, I've often screwed back towards the door, hit the wall and the terminal put me back on the middle platform.

kip

2004-12-10 11:26:06 am

I managed it a little while ago with the scan dash (in my file before spider ball; once I made it, I still had to get that first since there currently isn't a method for doing Watch Station without it). I just beat the game to make sure nothing goes wrong, played pretty much nonstop to do it despite having a migraine since I woke up.

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/watch_station_access.avi
http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/watch_station_access.wmv
http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/sanctuary_entrance.avi

There's a phazon elite deal with the Dark Oasis ing flying cache (possibly others), but otherwise it's all good. All it means is that you need to go to Torvus before Agon when getting the sky temple keys. You can skip caretaker at least.

Other notes:

* I briefly tried to get echo visor while fighting DS2, couldn't though. I tried jumping off one of the destroyed pillars that have sparks flying out of them. Maybe if you kick off a wall at the right angle somehow. Screw attacks only do about a super's worth of damage to DS2, so they're not the best thing ever.

* I entered caretaker's room from the back and the door didn't lock behind me..not sure if that eliminates the lock completely but I never had to deal with it.

* Didn't try entering power bomb guardian's room from the top door, then leaving to see if he left the power bomb behind.

* Tried to break the glass before DS2 using screw attack at Solr's suggestion, didn't seem to work. I tried to hit the cracked part.

Anyway, here is how you do the dash. First get on that cord by the wall, move to the end of it, then fully scan the light door (if it hasn't been already). Do a dash but hold L, don't let go; allow the screen to freeze. Before it can freeze, slam the stick to straight down as fast as you can. Let go of L, hold R and hold L again. Hold both and straight down on the stick until you reappear at the tank ledge.

I only did this once out of several hours, but all that time I was trying different things, lots of bouncing around ideas with Solr about how to dash best here. I only made it doing what I just described. It's very important that all the stick motions are done very quickly and forcefully, maybe more so than for a Prime dash.

Notice that when you hold L after the dash, when the crosshair disappears seems to be when the game officially considers you to have suffered a terminal fall, and we think your distance after that doesn't matter. I brought up the map as soon as I saw it disappear so that whoever wants to try this can have something to compare their attempts to.

I don't know what people plan to do with this, but knock yourselves out guys.

I managed it a little while ago with the scan dash (in my file before spider ball; once I made it, I still had to get that first since there currently isn't a method for doing Watch Station without it). I just beat the game to make sure nothing goes wrong, played pretty much nonstop to do it despite having a migraine since I woke up.

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/watch_station_access.avi
http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/watch_station_access.wmv
http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/sanctuary_entrance.avi

There's a phazon elite deal with the Dark Oasis ing flying cache (possibly others), but otherwise it's all good. All it means is that you need to go to Torvus before Agon when getting the sky temple keys. You can skip caretaker at least.

Other notes:

* I briefly tried to get echo visor while fighting DS2, couldn't though. I tried jumping off one of the destroyed pillars that have sparks flying out of them. Maybe if you kick off a wall at the right angle somehow. Screw attacks only do about a super's worth of damage to DS2, so they're not the best thing ever.

* I entered caretaker's room from the back and the door didn't lock behind me..not sure if that eliminates the lock completely but I never had to deal with it.

* Didn't try entering power bomb guardian's room from the top door, then leaving to see if he left the power bomb behind.

* Tried to break the glass before DS2 using screw attack at Solr's suggestion, didn't seem to work. I tried to hit the cracked part.

Anyway, here is how you do the dash. First get on that cord by the wall, move to the end of it, then fully scan the light door (if it hasn't been already). Do a dash but hold L, don't let go; allow the screen to freeze. Before it can freeze, slam the stick to straight down as fast as you can. Let go of L, hold R and hold L again. Hold both and straight down on the stick until you reappear at the tank ledge.

I only did this once out of several hours, but all that time I was trying different things, lots of bouncing around ideas with Solr about how to dash best here. I only made it doing what I just described. It's very important that all the stick motions are done very quickly and forcefully, maybe more so than for a Prime dash.

Notice that when you hold L after the dash, when the crosshair disappears seems to be when the game officially considers you to have suffered a terminal fall, and we think your distance after that doesn't matter. I brought up the map as soon as I saw it disappear so that whoever wants to try this can have something to compare their attempts to.

I don't know what people plan to do with this, but knock yourselves out guys.

DJGrenola

2004-12-10 11:37:28 am

<3 kip

Red Scarlet

2004-12-10 11:50:25 am

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

What's the Phazon Elite deal with the Ing Cache? I don't get what you're saying there.

Go early Power Bombs! Neato kip and solr..

My crappy route already goes to Torvus first though, bwahaha.

kip

2004-12-10 12:11:53 pm

He's not there until you have the main power bomb, I figured that's what it was as soon as I noticed, since he's behind a denzium wall. I was following Radix's sky temple route up to that point, so it's possible that some of the other ing flying caches don't show up either. None of the others are behind denzium walls though.

Red Scarlet

2004-12-10 01:08:33 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Could you re-make the watch station video? It refuses to open/run no matter if I try to save it to my computer then watch, or try to open it as is..the early PB one works though.

Hmm, ok. So now a time needs to be found to go fight the PB Guardian anyway..I'm guessing that's where the 'Torvus before Agon' thing comes in?

DJGrenola

2004-12-10 01:23:10 pm

scarlet: try

http://www.ali1548.ukshells.co.uk/kip_wsa_reenc.avi
(DivX)

or

http://www.ali1548.ukshells.co.uk/kip_wsa_xvid.avi
(xVid)

Red Scarlet

2004-12-10 01:31:31 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Cool, thanks..the first one worked, and now kip's works in DivX too (just not WMP).

True Diehard Gamer

2004-12-10 03:13:17 pm

You might not even need the power bomb from the guardian in order for the flying ing cache to appear. It could be just as simple as initiating the fight, and then leaving.

Red Scarlet

2004-12-10 03:17:27 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Yeah..that and entering the PB Guardian's room backwards as well as making sure that the above Sky Temple Key is the only one like that that requires the original PB being picked up all need to be tested out.

bartendorsparky

2004-12-10 05:17:59 pm

always move fast

well, i guess i can confirm that the wsa trick works without having any keys, sanc or sky temple..

i made all 3 times...that i made it, in the span of about 5 minutes using a slight variation to kips explanation. after you "freeze" the view and stuff, if you hold l, r, down, and right, you seem to go further or something. now, you have to hold right very, very slightly. just nudge it over like 1/10 mm or something tiny like that...

*goes to redo last 3 or so parts*

EDIT:

screw attack sans spiderball:

in watch station, there are two rezbits, who occasionally make shields. jump on one of these shields, then to the lowest, srtaight spider track. then jump to the slightly higher one to the right, and instant mam (very rare/hard) into the slot.

EDIT 2:

in the screw attack room, you can jump on a rezbits shield, then onto the screw attack room roof thing. then you can walk accross, and eventually get to the spinners without even entering the dark world. nice speed trick, and help towards grapple skip i suppose.

also, i did a "kipish dash" from the main room thing to get back to the main bridge.

well, i guess i can confirm that the wsa trick works without having any keys, sanc or sky temple..

i made all 3 times...that i made it, in the span of about 5 minutes using a slight variation to kips explanation. after you "freeze" the view and stuff, if you hold l, r, down, and right, you seem to go further or something. now, you have to hold right very, very slightly. just nudge it over like 1/10 mm or something tiny like that...

*goes to redo last 3 or so parts*

EDIT:

screw attack sans spiderball:

in watch station, there are two rezbits, who occasionally make shields. jump on one of these shields, then to the lowest, srtaight spider track. then jump to the slightly higher one to the right, and instant mam (very rare/hard) into the slot.

EDIT 2:

in the screw attack room, you can jump on a rezbits shield, then onto the screw attack room roof thing. then you can walk accross, and eventually get to the spinners without even entering the dark world. nice speed trick, and help towards grapple skip i suppose.

also, i did a "kipish dash" from the main room thing to get back to the main bridge.

Arrow

2004-12-10 07:02:28 pm

Quote:

in the screw attack room, you can jump on a rezbits shield, then onto the screw attack room roof thing. then you can walk accross, and eventually get to the spinners without even entering the dark world. nice speed trick, and help towards grapple skip i suppose.

Wow, I could be wrong, but I think this could potentially make grapple very skippable. I haven't tried it or anything, but it doesn't seem like it would be hard to jump from the roof to the spinners... and then you could probably jump off of the rezbits that appear next to the spinners back to the middle. Maybe?

bartendorsparky

2004-12-10 07:08:30 pm

always move fast

yeah, you can get to the spinners, get screw, and leave without ever entering the dark world.