Speed tricks topic

2004-12-09 04:15:21 pm

Yeah DS won't be a problem I think, and as for quadraxis, do we have confirmation that you can actually damage the smaller antennae on the head without it? I know we can destroy the main antennae.

If so, then yeah, that just leaves accessing the caretaker drone. If a way is found to bypass caretaker, get screw early, or to damage the sonic locks without echo visor then yes, we might be able to skip the echo visor.

Which would also have the advantage of letting us skip both the DS2 and possibly caretaker drone fights. A good time saver for sure.

Prime Hunter

2004-12-09 04:21:10 pm

I thought someone was able to skip past the drone by jumping off of the stuff on the right of the room from where you first enter...

Also, I just realized a problem: You need the Echo Visor to get to the Ing Hive Key that you Screw Attack up the elevator shaft to get to: The portal to that room is beyond the barrier with a Echo Visor puzzle. Evil or Very Mad

Red Scarlet

2004-12-09 04:37:24 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Quote from Prime Hunter:

I thought someone was able to skip past the drone by jumping off of the stuff on the right of the room from where you first enter...

The door's locked until you kill the Caretaker Drone, or if there's some way found that you can get into the morph ball tunnel, then fall out, hoping that it gets unlocked that way.

Solr_Flare

2004-12-09 05:05:38 pm

I thought about it some more and I have to agree with Kip. The words for today are:

Watch Station Access.

We get through Watch Station Access early, we accomplish a ton.

1) We would be able to get Screw Attack right after Spider

2) Which would let us get the PB expansion in Sanc. Entrance instead of fighting the PB Guardian.

3) So we would skip both Caretaker Drone and PB Guardian for sure right there.

4) It opens up the possibility of skipping Echo Visor.

5) Which would open up the possibility of skipping Boost Ball.

All that if we somehow find a way to reach that raised grapple point or just plain cross that room O.o

Red Scarlet

2004-12-09 05:41:05 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

You need the Echo Visor to get past the Dark Dynamo room thing (or the room after it) on the way to Quadraxis though.

bushwacker

2004-12-09 06:04:39 pm

Are the Grapple points even active before they're lowered? It just doesn't seem like they would be.

Ekarderif

2004-12-09 06:07:56 pm

The points look active, just out of reach. If you can ghetto high enough... :D

Solr_Flare

2004-12-09 06:09:19 pm

Not sure if they are active or not. Kip and I were discussing that last night. They at least seem to be.

Red Scarlet

2004-12-09 06:17:47 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

I remember being in there the first time, and I couldn't scan or anything with them...go ghetto/floaty jump?

Prime Hunter

2004-12-09 07:00:56 pm

Watch Station Access is that long room with no floor and the energy tank in it right? Cause that would be nice if we can get across there earlier than normal. We'd have to pull off something grand to get across there however...

Too bad there's no Scan Dashing in this game Evil or Very Mad

(Heck, I don't know of anything we could do it off of anyway in there)

Maur

2004-12-09 07:35:29 pm

You could always scandash off the door, it's in a decent place... but without prime's uber-scandash, you can't go far enough. I tried. :/

bushwacker

2004-12-09 07:35:30 pm

Don't you lose the floaty jump after taking an elevator?

Solr_Flare

2004-12-09 08:09:23 pm

You do. I think it is because the game does something like clear the memory or some such when you take and elevator and load a new region. So no known way as of yet to keep floaty or get it somewhere else.

And yeah, I'm not sure exactly how we go about getting across Watch Station Access as of yet. But, its worth taking a serious look at since that room, like the underwater dash in Torvus, holds the key to breaking the item order in Sanctuary

bushwacker

2004-12-09 08:16:15 pm

Little something I found a while ago but forgot about until now:

It's the room just before the Light Beam, there's the two pillars that you shoot with the Dark Beam to lower so you can get up to the door to the Light Beam.

All you do is shoot the pillar closest to the Light Beam door, then ghetto jump up to it. Don't even have to bother with the lower pillar.

GreenMamba

2004-12-09 08:28:54 pm

What luck, there's french fry stuck in my beard.

I once managed to raise a pillar while I was on top of it, but I got squeezed out and landed in the water. The raising up think goes so fast, though. It's hard to see what's happenning.

BoostR

2004-12-09 09:49:32 pm

Two quick timesavers I found a while ago:

When waiting for a translator door to go down, jump onto the red part that emits a lore hologram thingy. You'll stand on it. This only really helps without Space Jump, or on gigantic doors.

In the first time in Agon, there are some bridges you knock down. Normally, you can't get on for a few seconds, as a rock barrier is still there. Simply jump onto the fallen pillar from the side (diagonally onto it), and you'll be able to get on it as soon as it falls down.

You know, moonjump would be REALLY nice, especially for things like ^that^. I just wish some hacker could be convinced to make a code (if it hasn't been started already-I know nothing of how long it takes/how difficult it is).

Meh, started another run. Normal, any%. Currently saved just before DS, 0:22 on the timer and 8% of the items. One E-tank, 15 missiles. I've started looking for a fast, no-platform-raising way through Doomed Entry (Dark Version of Command Center, the Pirate Base place [omgrhyme] in Agon).

Two quick timesavers I found a while ago:

When waiting for a translator door to go down, jump onto the red part that emits a lore hologram thingy.  You'll stand on it.  This only really helps without Space Jump, or on gigantic doors.

In the first time in Agon, there are some bridges you knock down.  Normally, you can't get on for a few seconds, as a rock barrier is still there.  Simply jump onto the fallen pillar from the side (diagonally onto it), and you'll be able to get on it as soon as it falls down.

You know, moonjump would be REALLY nice, especially for things like ^that^.  I just wish some hacker could be convinced to make a code (if it hasn't been started already-I know nothing of how long it takes/how difficult it is).

Meh, started another run.  Normal, any%.  Currently saved just before DS, 0:22 on the timer and 8% of the items.  One E-tank, 15 missiles.  I've started looking for a fast, no-platform-raising way through Doomed Entry (Dark Version of Command Center, the Pirate Base place [omgrhyme] in Agon).

Maur

2004-12-09 10:08:23 pm

Are you taping that, boostr?

bushwacker

2004-12-09 10:39:12 pm

I found a little something in Watch Station Access that might be useful in some way.

Let's say you're standing on the edge of the pit and facing the white door near you. There's a sort of arch that separates the low-ceilinged area from the high ceilinged area.

Ghetto jumping (or space jumping really well) into the arch gets you caught in one of those weird little spots where you hover in mid-air if you hold L, but fall if you let go.

If you're high enough and also positioned right, you can morph while hovering in this spot and stick there. At this point, bombs or boosting don't effect you. Unmorphing usually pops you into the air a little bit and then you fall, and you'll just fall like normal if you push away from the wall while still morphed.

I'm hoping there's an invisible ledge somewhere higher up there from which you could jump to the grapple points, or maybe you can boost into a SW while caught in the spot, or maybe boost a whole bunch and somehow shoot yourself across the gap to the energy tank.

I found a little something in Watch Station Access that might be useful in some way.

Let's say you're standing on the edge of the pit and facing the white door near you. There's a sort of arch that separates the low-ceilinged area from the high ceilinged area.

Ghetto jumping (or space jumping really well) into the arch gets you caught in one of those weird little spots where you hover in mid-air if you hold L, but fall if you let go.

If you're high enough and also positioned right, you can morph while hovering in this spot and stick there. At this point, bombs or boosting don't effect you. Unmorphing usually pops you into the air a little bit and then you fall, and you'll just fall like normal if you push away from the wall while still morphed.

I'm hoping there's an invisible ledge somewhere higher up there from which you could jump to the grapple points, or maybe you can boost into a SW while caught in the spot, or maybe boost a whole bunch and somehow shoot yourself across the gap to the energy tank.

kip

2004-12-09 10:39:42 pm

The grapple points I guess are there, you can grapple without lowering them if you start by the light door on the other side, and ghetto off something. I guess it's better than them not being there, but you can't get anywhere near that height from the proper side.

The thing about Watch Station Access is that you don't need to cross the gap to be placed where the tank is, you just need to go far enough before falling. The distance is equal to that of a space jump followed by entering screw attack mode (not doing any screw attacks, just pressing B a third time).

It is pretty easy to land by the tank doing this, which is what makes me think there is some kind of trigger that lets you be able to land by the tank. That's why I played until screw attack on a new file, and specifically made sure never to enter Watch Station Access or lower the grapple points. Once I had screw attack, I went the long way around to the room, and tried the standard space jump then enter screw attack mode.

I still landed on the ledge by the tank, so this suggests to me either the trigger is getting screw attack itself, or it's purely a distance thing. I've pretty much gotten as far with a space jump then midair morph, and a scan dash from the light door, but I haven't been put at the tank ledge yet, so I'm hesitant to think it's just distance.

One thing that's been helping me is marking distance by looking at the map when the screen turns white, and looking at where the green arrow is. I do this to see how close I was to the tank ledge before being teleported, especially in comparison to my screw attack video.

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/wsa_screw_attack.avi
http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/wsa_grapple.avi
http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/wsa_dash.avi
http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/wsa_space_jump.avi

On irc, people brought up the possibility that you need to be in ball mode to get to the tank ledge, since the game seems to consider screw attack as ball mode. All I can say is I've tried adding on morphs to everything I've tried (including the scan dash, which actually gets really far). Makes me think screw attack is just a special kind of ball mode that the game is okay with ignoring for terminal falls; that would also explain why I haven't been put at the tank ledge without it yet.

I have another file that is saved next to WSA but hasn't collected spider ball, so I can alternate between it and the file that just got screw attack as needed to test stuff.

But anyway... anyone have thoughts on this whole thing?

The grapple points I guess are there, you can grapple without lowering them if you start by the light door on the other side, and ghetto off something. I guess it's better than them not being there, but you can't get anywhere near that height from the proper side.

The thing about Watch Station Access is that you don't need to cross the gap to be placed where the tank is, you just need to go far enough before falling. The distance is equal to that of a space jump followed by entering screw attack mode (not doing any screw attacks, just pressing B a third time).

It is pretty easy to land by the tank doing this, which is what makes me think there is some kind of trigger that lets you be able to land by the tank. That's why I played until screw attack on a new file, and specifically made sure never to enter Watch Station Access or lower the grapple points. Once I had screw attack, I went the long way around to the room, and tried the standard space jump then enter screw attack mode.

I still landed on the ledge by the tank, so this suggests to me either the trigger is getting screw attack itself, or it's purely a distance thing. I've pretty much gotten as far with a space jump then midair morph, and a scan dash from the light door, but I haven't been put at the tank ledge yet, so I'm hesitant to think it's just distance.

One thing that's been helping me is marking distance by looking at the map when the screen turns white, and looking at where the green arrow is. I do this to see how close I was to the tank ledge before being teleported, especially in comparison to my screw attack video.

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/wsa_screw_attack.avi
http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/wsa_grapple.avi 
http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/wsa_dash.avi 
http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/wsa_space_jump.avi

On irc, people brought up the possibility that you need to be in ball mode to get to the tank ledge, since the game seems to consider screw attack as ball mode. All I can say is I've tried adding on morphs to everything I've tried (including the scan dash, which actually gets really far). Makes me think screw attack is just a special kind of ball mode that the game is okay with ignoring for terminal falls; that would also explain why I haven't been put at the tank ledge without it yet.

I have another file that is saved next to WSA but hasn't collected spider ball, so I can alternate between it and the file that just got screw attack as needed to test stuff.

But anyway... anyone have thoughts on this whole thing?

bushwacker

2004-12-09 11:01:27 pm

It seems likely that there might be some sort of trigger to allow you to be placed by the energy tank. The gap isn't really all that big, so it makes sense that Retro would have taken at least a little bit of precaution with it. Or they could've just made the gap bigger instead Rolling Eyes

Now I'm thinking about the energy tank platform in Windchamber Gateway. I'm pretty sure I remember jumping to and bumping against the platform, but still not be being placed on it. This was without the Grapple Beam though, which was the "required" item to get to that platform. I wonder if you could jump/bump the platform AFTER getting Grapple and end up transported to the energy tank platform, since you would have met the prerequisite for being able to get to the platform.

In that vein, I suggest a test: get to the far side of Watch Station Access (e-tank side) and jump around a little bit so the game acknowledges that you're allowed on this side now. Then take the long way back around to the Gyro Chamber side, and try to get transported back to the e-tank now. It very well may be that you would be transported now, since you're "allowed" to be. This would explain why kip could get transported while Screwing.

I suppose I should go try to jump/bump the Windchamber Gateway platform WITH Grapple and see what happens.

It seems likely that there might be some sort of trigger to allow you to be placed by the energy tank. The gap isn't really all that big, so it makes sense that Retro would have taken at least a little bit of precaution with it. Or they could've just made the gap bigger instead  :roll:

Now I'm thinking about the energy tank platform in Windchamber Gateway. I'm pretty sure I remember jumping to and bumping against the platform, but still not be being placed on it. This was without the Grapple Beam though, which was the "required" item to get to that platform. I wonder if you could jump/bump the platform AFTER getting Grapple and end up transported to the energy tank platform, since you would have met the prerequisite for being able to get to the platform.

In that vein, I suggest a test: get to the far side of Watch Station Access (e-tank side) and jump around a little bit so the game acknowledges that you're allowed on this side now. Then take the long way back around to the Gyro Chamber side, and try to get transported back to the e-tank now. It very well may be that you would be transported now, since you're "allowed" to be. This would explain why kip could get transported while Screwing.

I suppose I should go try to jump/bump the Windchamber Gateway platform WITH Grapple and see what happens.

tomatobob

2004-12-09 11:08:34 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

I think where you get placed after a terminal fall is related solely to distance, I just don't see why getting the Screw Attack would trigger the drop, of course Retro has done some crazy things.
I think though, that if we could just squeeze a bit more distance from a Space Jump we could get to that ledge, I get the impression that entering Screw Attack mode gives you slightly more distace on the end of your jump than just falling or morphing.

Morgenstern

2004-12-09 11:12:14 pm

I havent really read much on this topic, but I'm assuming that getting across that gap without grapple or space is basically the wet dream of speed/low% running now?

Solr_Flare

2004-12-09 11:14:28 pm

Well looking over everything. It looks like:

A) you can't be in morph ball mode when you TF

B) you need a little bit more distance

C) a combination of A and B

D) you just can't spawn on that side till you get screw

BoostR

2004-12-09 11:33:50 pm

Quote from Maur:

Are you taping that, boostr?

Sadly, no...
<_<

I dunno what I would need to do that, I'm pretty hesitant to spend a bunch of money for taping a few runs, and if it's really complicated, I don't want to have anything to do with it.

I'd LIKE to tape a run, sure, but NOT with a VCR (don't ask, don't tell :P ).

I just NEED to try Watch Station Access now. All this sudden discussion...geez.

Which makes me think...that rule about being "allowed" to get on the other side. In the Dark Version of Watch Station (Aerial Training Site?), there's the third Sanctuary Key. Only there's a barrier around it. I was thinking before that maybe if you got close enough, the game would be stupid enough to put you inside of there, essentially skipping the need for Screw Attack there (and also making quite a nice speed trick).
It might have been tried already, but it's definitely worth another go. Who knows? It might work, or at least tell us something that may be useful in Watch Station Access.

[quote="Maur"]Are you taping that, boostr?[/quote]

Sadly, no...
<_<

I dunno what I would need to do that, I'm pretty hesitant to spend a bunch of money for taping a few runs, and if it's really complicated, I don't want to have anything to do with it.

I'd LIKE to tape a run, sure, but NOT with a VCR (don't ask, don't tell :P ).

I just NEED to try Watch Station Access now.  All this sudden discussion...geez.

Which makes me think...that rule about being "allowed" to get on the other side.  In the Dark Version of Watch Station (Aerial Training Site?), there's the third Sanctuary Key.  Only there's a barrier around it.  I was thinking before that maybe if you got close enough, the game would be stupid enough to put you inside of there, essentially skipping the need for Screw Attack there (and also making quite a nice speed trick).  
It might have been tried already, but it's definitely worth another go.  Who knows?  It might work, or at least tell us something that may be useful in Watch Station Access.

Solr_Flare

2004-12-09 11:34:48 pm

Quote from Morgenstern:

I havent really read much on this topic, but I'm assuming that getting across that gap without grapple or space is basically the wet dream of speed/low% running now?

At the moment it would be huge if accomplished, yes. It could cut a good 10 to 20 minutes off run times and help open up potential at least for item skipping although nothing for sure.