OOOHHHH NOOEESS!!11!! Not a quarked run already!! [locked]

2005-04-13 07:55:06 pm

everybody knows it's true

Quote from Ryan Ferneau:

Anyway, I know there's a lot of smart Metroid fans here who might have some ideas on how to improve the run, so be sure to post any new tips and strategies at http://bisqwit.iki.fi/nesvideos/forum/viewtopic.php?p=31431 when you think of them. I'm sure BoltR will appreciate it.

I'll do that. If you're lucky.

What? I emulate too...

Starblade

2005-04-13 08:26:54 pm

It sounds like it's a good thing I can't actually see the video. I don't understand why people would rather watch 'cheated' movies than people doing their hardest on legitimate ones (which are much more fun to watch, imo, because you know that you might be able to do it someday too).

Wassup Dawgs

2005-04-13 09:22:26 pm

Quote from Radix:

Quote from Wassup Dawgs:

Quote from ajbolt89:

He can browse here for tips. I'd hope the people here wouldn't support quarkers.

Didn't RT tell them about 0% fusion?

Did you think we could keep it a secret, here out in the open, on this forum only?

No, I was just trying to crush aj's hopes. :(

graveworm

2005-04-14 05:22:35 am

Did you read the "Why and how" on that site? I think you're the ones that are stupid. They're not doing "cheated speedruns", if you read the "Why and how" hopefully you'll understand more, if you don't enjoy perfection, (which I do), don't watch it, and really, how does this affect you, it says "Tool-assisted videos", it's not like they're "stealing the record-time" for you.

JaggerG

2005-04-14 05:40:26 am

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

Ahahaha! Calm down, man, it's cool! Jebus! XD

We know it's tool assisted, and we know it won't get a shiny plaque instead of us, it's just the n00bs that go around claiming it's even better than ours that pisses us off. Jeeze. We're okay with "perfected" videos, we just don't like seeing people compare them to the real runs we do. It's not the vids, it's the viewers. They just get the wrong ideas in their heads and they look the same to them. People just don't try to look hard enough to see a difference.

graveworm

2005-04-14 09:11:44 am

Who claimed that he/she's better than you are?

And no one should compare them to real speedruns, once again, read the "Why and how".

ajbolt89

2005-04-14 09:50:10 am

lol no way

Ugh, shut the hell up graveworm, this thing goes deeper than you.

graveworm

2005-04-14 10:29:07 am

Then tell me, I want to know what makes you so hostile to tool-assisted "runs". After all, you're flaming around about a video-game.

Tim

2005-04-14 11:00:08 am

Quote from graveworm:

Did you read the "Why and how" on that site? I think you're the ones that are stupid. They're not doing "cheated speedruns", if you read the "Why and how" hopefully you'll understand more, if you don't enjoy perfection, (which I do), don't watch it, and really, how does this affect you, it says "Tool-assisted videos", it's not like they're "stealing the record-time" for you.

The beef, for those of you that are cognitive thinking-impaired, is simply the border between real-life and cheating. No one gives a flying fuck if they're not out to break records; it's the fact that the game is run the way a human being could never do it, and therefore it's fake.

It's also quite sad that a number of people out there don't bother to figure out if it's quarked, and assume the run in question is real, and then they go on other forums, like this one, and make foolish statements like "haha u n00bs u suk cuz i saw a run wich beet ur time lolol!!111".

And we all know what happens from there.

The argument I see (and make) is that making videos of actual tricks one can pull off is one thing. Making videos of something you can do only with tool-assisted methods comes off as counterfeit.

Personally, there are times I think it's crazy enough to devote large amounts of one's time to beating the crap out of a game's code the real way (though I've been doing it for years... must be getting crotchety in my old age). But to spend even more time hunched in front of a computer, slowing everything down frame by frame to get that jump just oh-so-perfect is even crazier.

Feel free to tear into this; I take great amusement from some of the mindless "you suck!" "no you suck!" rhetoric that usually erupts from this sort of thing.

[quote="graveworm"]Did you read the "Why and how" on that site? I think you're the ones that are stupid. They're not doing "cheated speedruns", if you read the "Why and how" hopefully you'll understand more, if you don't enjoy perfection, (which I do), don't watch it, and really, how does this affect you, it says "Tool-assisted videos", it's not like they're "stealing the record-time" for you.[/quote]

The beef, for those of you that are cognitive thinking-impaired, is simply the border between real-life and cheating. No one gives a flying fuck if they're not out to break records; it's the fact that the game is run the way a human being could never do it, and therefore it's fake.

It's also quite sad that a number of people out there don't bother to figure out if it's quarked, and assume the run in question is real, and then they go on other forums, like this one, and make foolish statements like "haha u n00bs u suk cuz i saw a run wich beet ur time lolol!!111".

And we all know what happens from there.

The argument I see (and make) is that making videos of actual tricks one can pull off is one thing. Making videos of something you can do only with tool-assisted methods comes off as counterfeit.

Personally, there are times I think it's crazy enough to devote large amounts of one's time to beating the crap out of a game's code the real way (though I've been doing it for years... must be getting crotchety in my old age). But to spend even more time hunched in front of a computer, slowing everything down frame by frame to get that jump just [i]oh-so-perfect[/i] is even crazier.

Feel free to tear into this; I take great amusement from some of the mindless "you suck!" "no you suck!" rhetoric that usually erupts from this sort of thing.

Yoshi348

2005-04-14 11:11:37 am

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Ready and willing.

Most people are NOT introduced to these videos from the site of origination.

Tim

2005-04-14 11:18:56 am

*isn't quite sure if Yoshi is contradicting him or agreeing with something he said* :?

Yoshi348

2005-04-14 11:20:41 am

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

lol, I wasn't really talking too much directly about what you said there... the closest thing is probably agreeing with your second paragraph.

Tim

2005-04-14 11:21:40 am

Gotcha. :)

Ekarderif

2005-04-14 11:40:17 am

You suck!

My biggest complaint is that yes, people start to pass this off as legit. No matter how much you claim it's not, some guy will steal the video, post it somewhere, and say it's the world record. Not only that, but the emurapists have managed to "officially" steal a previously legitimate term for their own purposes: time attack. No thanks to Morimoto, we're overloaded with tons of these so called time attacks from every angle.

Now, normally I wouldn't mind these if they were perfect. But not only is their jumping, running, and other manuvers perfect, but their route or method of attack tends to be flawed. There's always some hole I can poke through these "perfect" runs that even an average speed runner can fix. The Zero Mission run is flawed on many levels (I'm sure GameCube04 understands what I'm talking about ;)) and yet its time is unbeatable on the console.

As a speed runner, I personally hate some of these things. Despite what the author may claim, he's still killing off some incentive to watch or do the runs, simply because he just made a "flawless" run that's impossible to ever conceivably do on a console. He may claim that's not his intent, but seriously, intent and reality are separate things. I don't intend to take forever doing my speed run, but it does anyways. Denial hurts.

So it boils down to creativity. I guess the emurapists have some, but all of them involve crazy perfect techniques that don't work without save states and re-records. I've seen at least a new feasible trick among every speed run thus far, but no such luck with "time attacks." This does not mean it cannot be found, as the wonderful work in progress Fusion 0% actually contains quite a bit of new stuff worth looking at (and it's only a few minutes in (yes I'm giving an emurape some respect (surprising isn't it? (why the hell am I using stacked parentheses?)))).

Okay, I guess I'm done.

You suck!

My biggest complaint is that yes, people start to pass this off as legit. No matter how much you claim it's not, some guy will steal the video, post it somewhere, and say it's the world record. Not only that, but the emurapists have managed to "officially" steal a previously legitimate term for their own purposes: time attack. No thanks to Morimoto, we're overloaded with tons of these so called time attacks from every angle.

Now, normally I wouldn't mind these if they were perfect. But not only is their jumping, running, and other manuvers perfect, but their route or method of attack tends to be flawed. There's always some hole I can poke through these "perfect" runs that even an average speed runner can fix. The Zero Mission run is flawed on many levels (I'm sure GameCube04 understands what I'm talking about ;)) and yet its time is unbeatable on the console.

As a speed runner, I personally hate some of these things. Despite what the author may claim, he's still killing off some incentive to watch or do the runs, simply because he just made a "flawless" run that's impossible to ever conceivably do on a console. He may claim that's not his intent, but seriously, intent and reality are separate things. I don't intend to take forever doing my speed run, but it does anyways. Denial hurts.

So it boils down to creativity. I guess the emurapists have some, but all of them involve crazy perfect techniques that don't work without save states and re-records. I've seen at least a new feasible trick among every speed run thus far, but no such luck with "time attacks." This does not mean it cannot be found, as the wonderful work in progress Fusion 0% actually contains quite a bit of new stuff worth looking at (and it's only a few minutes in (yes I'm giving an emurape some respect (surprising isn't it? (why the hell am I using stacked parentheses?)))).

Okay, I guess I'm done.

Ryan Ferneau

2005-04-14 12:17:07 pm

I say the main problem, if there is a real problem, is ebaumsworld. They took Morimoto's SMB3 run and put it up without using any context. So fools all over the Internet visit that place and repost the link, not knowing what it's really about, and more fools gather together and throw around rumors about something that should already be common knowledge.

Bisqwit's site, on the other hand, makes the purposes of the videos clear and compiles them in a meaningful way. If someone steals a link to a movie on nesvideos (which probably wouldn't work too well, as they're mostly emulator movies or torrented AVIs), then they're not just a fool, but a liar as well, and it's easier to spot these shenanigans when there's a site like Bisqwit's that has the whole story.

And I think some people here might have made some hasty generalizations about time attacks. They don't seem to take away the thrill of playing games for real as much as people say. In fact, they can bring new interest to games that had been forgotten. I've seen interest in new paths and techniques arise for games like MegaMan and Super Mario World thanks to some new movies on nesvideos. It's a fallacy to say that time attacks never bring anything new. But if you see flaws in a movie, just tell the author so, or make a new movie yourself! It can only improve on things.

By the way, what's wrong with using the term "time attack" for the videos? You already have "speed run" for the other kind of movie. And don't say we should use some term that demeans tool-assisted movies just because you don't like them...

I say the main problem, if there is a real problem, is ebaumsworld.  They took Morimoto's SMB3 run and put it up without using any context.  So fools all over the Internet visit that place and repost the link, not knowing what it's really about, and more fools gather together and throw around rumors about something that should already be common knowledge.

Bisqwit's site, on the other hand, makes the purposes of the videos clear and compiles them in a meaningful way.  If someone steals a link to a movie on nesvideos (which probably wouldn't work too well, as they're mostly emulator movies or torrented AVIs), then they're not just a fool, but a liar as well, and it's easier to spot these shenanigans when there's a site like Bisqwit's that has the whole story.

And I think some people here might have made some hasty generalizations about time attacks.  They don't seem to take away the thrill of playing games for real as much as people say.  In fact, they can bring new interest to games that had been forgotten.  I've seen interest in new paths and techniques arise for games like MegaMan and Super Mario World thanks to some new movies on nesvideos.  It's a fallacy to say that time attacks never bring anything new.  But if you see flaws in a movie, just tell the author so, or make a new movie yourself!  It can only improve on things.

By the way, what's wrong with using the term "time attack" for the videos?  You already have "speed run" for the other kind of movie.  And don't say we should use some term that demeans tool-assisted movies just because you don't like them...

Snytbaggen

2005-04-14 12:32:28 pm

I just wonder one thing: WHAT THE FLICKERBAT IS A QUARKER????????

>_>

<_<

*hides*

Yoshi348

2005-04-14 12:48:54 pm

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Ready and willing.

It's runs that are save stated every second of the way, resulting in inhuman perfection. Usually known as tool-assisted or emu-rape, depending on what side of the fence we're on. The term "quark", however, is a local term to M2K2.

http://www.metroid2002.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2254&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=quark&start=30

Basically, there was a thread disccussing the fact that "tool-assisted" is an annoying euphimism, and the conversation agreed that "emu-raping" is a bad term too from an objective standpoint, being both judgemental and possibly offensive (using "rape" in a sort of flippant manner). Eventually, Saber suggested Quark, getting it from a character from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, who's a lying cheating kind of guy, but one you're totally sympathetic to.

Ryan Ferneau

2005-04-14 01:05:54 pm

I thought you meant the dog from Honey I Shrunk the Kids.

Dragonfangs

2005-04-14 01:07:19 pm

Quote from Ryan Ferneau:

By the way, what's wrong with using the term "time attack" for the videos? You already have "speed run" for the other kind of movie. And don't say we should use some term that demeans tool-assisted movies just because you don't like them...

IMO, "Time attack" doesn't really in any way tell what kind of run it actually is. For someone not familiar with the concept, it could just as easily be a normal run. Then again "quark" doesn't either, but that's so far just an M2k2 reference, and anyone not familiar with it won't understand crap and will ask what it is instead of drawing false conclusions (proved by Snytbaggen). I think that "Tool-assisted" best tells what kind of run it is, without being offensive in any way.

Personally, I'd rather watch a quarked run just for the wow-factor of what they do, not the skill of the player, as quarked runs are often cooler and just plain more entertaining to watch than normal ones IMO. Of course, there's the occasional exception, Sess's run among others.

[quote="Ryan Ferneau"]By the way, what's wrong with using the term "time attack" for the videos? You already have "speed run" for the other kind of movie. And don't say we should use some term that demeans tool-assisted movies just because you don't like them...[/quote]

IMO, "Time attack" doesn't really in any way tell what kind of run it actually is. For someone not familiar with the concept, it could just as easily be a normal run. Then again "quark" doesn't either, but that's so far just an M2k2 reference, and anyone not familiar with it won't understand crap and will ask what it is instead of drawing false conclusions (proved by Snytbaggen). I think that "Tool-assisted" best tells what kind of run it is, without being offensive in any way.

Personally, I'd rather watch a quarked run just for the wow-factor of what they do, not the skill of the player, as quarked runs are often cooler and just plain more entertaining to watch than normal ones IMO. Of course, there's the occasional exception, Sess's run among others.

transience

2005-04-14 02:36:58 pm

twenty eight fifty

well, since everyone's writing essays, let me give my take.

I've spent months working on zero mission, seeing how low I can take my time. I often wonder what the lowest possible time is - I reason that if someone is -really- good, they can get into the 27's. we're talking absolute perfection, though.

along comes a faked, quarked, tool-assisted, emuraped, whatever you want to call it, run that breaks the theoretical limit of humans by four or five minutes. I can see ways to take another 20 or 30 seconds off, too, if those are the boundaries you can step into. I can spot something in just about every room that is not humanly possible to do. the game simply isn't meant to be played that way.

am I mad at the person who did it? nope, because someone else would do it instead. do I care that people will look at their video and say it's better than mine? not really - I play games for fun, not to show off for people I don't know on the internet; besides, that video is quite obviously fake. my thing is that the game isn't meant to be played that way. you simply can't argue that.

now, there are emulated videos I enjoy, too. the gradius video is wonderful, because it's just fun to watch. some other videos, ones that are not "time attacks", those are cool too. but when you take a game like metroid, slow it down, and savestate the hell out of it? that's no fun to me.

well, since everyone's writing essays, let me give my take.

I've spent months working on zero mission, seeing how low I can take my time. I often wonder what the lowest possible time is - I reason that if someone is -really- good, they can get into the 27's. we're talking absolute perfection, though.

along comes a faked, quarked, tool-assisted, emuraped, whatever you want to call it, run that breaks the theoretical limit of humans by four or five minutes. I can see ways to take another 20 or 30 seconds off, too, if those are the boundaries you can step into. I can spot something in just about every room that is not humanly possible to do. the game simply isn't meant to be played that way.

am I mad at the person who did it? nope, because someone else would do it instead. do I care that people will look at their video and say it's better than mine? not really - I play games for fun, not to show off for people I don't know on the internet; besides, that video is quite obviously fake. my thing is that the game isn't meant to be played that way. you simply can't argue that.

now, there are emulated videos I enjoy, too. the gradius video is wonderful, because it's just fun to watch. some other videos, ones that are not "time attacks", those are cool too. but when you take a game like metroid, slow it down, and savestate the hell out of it? that's no fun to me.

Tim

2005-04-14 02:55:39 pm

Well, "Time Attack" is the name of a mode within Zero Mission... I believe that's what Ekar means by "stealing an official term".

Bladegash

2005-04-14 03:45:56 pm

Yeah, there's plenty of games that have a "Time Attack" mode, and sites such as Shin's consistently call all the "Speed Runs" "Time Attacks," and I'm fairly certain that savestates/slowdowns/emulators/hex-editing isn't present in this movie archive.

JaggerG

2005-04-14 08:49:17 pm

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

Quote from Dragonfangs:

quarked runs are often cooler and just plain more entertaining to watch than normal ones IMO. Of course, there's the occasional exception, Sess's run among others.

>_< My brain! It hurts!

ShadowJedi

2005-04-15 04:16:00 am

I read a post of someone waiting for a Fusion run. And 100% runs of both games...
Hopefully, they'll get so annoyed at Fusions random events (and trying for a 0 jump zazabi) that they'll stop. That'd be great.

Quote from Dragonfangs:

Personally, I'd rather watch a quarked run just for the wow-factor of what they do, not the skill of the player, as quarked runs are often cooler and just plain more entertaining to watch than normal ones IMO.

Move to Bisqwit. Evil or Very Mad

Quote from Dragonfangs:

Of course, there's the occasional exception, Sess's run among others.

You do know his Technical Demonstration was just an emulated run with save states and stuff... Right?

Ryan Ferneau

2005-04-15 05:41:30 am

Yeah, Megafrost's working on a 0% Metroid Fusion run at http://bisqwit.iki.fi/nesvideos/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1947 if you have any comments.