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MonsterERB
2006-04-13 11:57:37 am
May I reiterate my earlier point(s)?  I've seen Dai Grepher bring up this exact same topic on multiple forums.  Here's the summary:
...
1.  He is not going to change his mind - EVER.  Even if you construct the perfect argument, constructed of titanium, with no holes or leaks, that completely skewers his positions - he will not change his mind.
2.  He will use logic when it suits him, and fly against the face of logic when it suits him.
3.  Any particularly well-made points against him, he will ignore or dodge.  Weakly-made points, he will attack ferociously.  This doesn't make him right - it just makes him a skilled debater.  DG has a promising future in politics.  He will also do all this whilst sitting upon the high horse of intellectual superiority.  He often offers rebuttals such as "your argument is flimsy, and I already defeated it 2 pages ago.  I win."  These serve to anger/inflame the other users on the board into engaging him in further debate.  Which is exactly what he wants.
4.  He is using this topic as a form of ego gratification.  Anyone who engages him in debate is enabling this.
===
My suggestions are as follows:
A.  These are all video games we're talking about.  Not real life.  As such, video games are meant to be PLAYED and ENJOYED, not intellectually dissected.
B.  Ignore this thread and Dai Grepher will go away.  I suggest not posting here anymore.  Do something more productive with your time.  Play MP:Hunters.  Watch a "Seinfeld" rerun.  Organize your sock drawer.  Any time you spend on posting in this topic, is wasted time.  (I myself am wasting about 5 minutes of my life here, to try to convince the rest of you to stop wasting your own time.  How ironic.)
C.  Allow Dai Grepher to live with his well-constructed delusion.  He will not change his mind on this - but who cares if 1 guy believes that MZM precedes M1 in the timeline?  It's meaningless.  Allow him to live in his little world, but don't let him intrude into yours any further than he already has.  It's just not worth it.
D.  The best way to get rid of trolls (other than banning), is ignoring them.
Purple Lizard
2006-04-13 12:41:21 pm
Quote from MonsterERB:
B. Ignore this thread and Dai Grepher will go away. I suggest not posting here anymore. Do something more productive with your time. Play MP:Hunters. Watch a "Seinfeld" rerun. Organize your sock drawer. Any time you spend on posting in this topic, is wasted time. (I myself am wasting about 5 minutes of my life here, to try to convince the rest of you to stop wasting your own time. How ironic.)


Why do they call it Ovaltine? The mug is round. The jar is round. They should call it round tine.
Periodico
2006-04-13 02:38:35 pm
Well Ovals are KINDA round.  In as way.  But also flat... hmmmmm... food for thought, that.
MonsterERB
2006-04-13 02:43:26 pm
Along that same train of thought... why do they say, "love makes the world go round", when the world is actually an oblate spheroid and not a sphere?  And, considering topological features, it's actually an irregular oblate spheroid, at that.  It should be more like, "love makes the irregularly oblate spheroidal world rotate about its tilted central axis".
...
Now THAT would be a kickass Hallmark card.
Periodico
2006-04-13 03:14:00 pm
Top 5 ways to know that you are a physics nerd:

1. You simplify an Elephant to a point for calculations

2. Every other subject is considered "unimportant"

3. You over-analyze the SHAPE OF THE EARTH! (I'm looking at you Monster Wink )

4. You consider chemistry Physics' illegitimate brother

5. You actually read this trying to see which ones apply to you.
Prime Hunter
2006-04-13 03:52:07 pm
You know, I think it is about time I do what MonsterERB suggests and step down from this debate. I have my own reasons for believing ZM is a remake and I am not going to change my mind about them. Everything so far has not, even with Dai's so called 'facts'.

Just so you know, Dai, I haven't conceded defeat and declared you the victor. I just agree that I cannot change your mind on this, after how many times things have gone around in circles so far throughout these pages. It's more of a stalemate.

If you want to think about it this way, both sides of the debate have been right from the very beginning: ZM is both a PREQUEL to the Metroid series as a whole, and a REMAKE of the NES Metroid as well.

(Oh, and I think it was Dragonfangs that mentioned the item locations, not me.)
SABERinBLUE
2006-04-13 04:17:28 pm
Cook of the Sea
Guys, the off-topic posts need to stop.  Stepping down is one thing, but spamming the thread up won't solve anything. 

I myself am not personally of the opinion that Dai is ego-driven in this, but I also don't think his argument holds water.
Purple Lizard
2006-04-13 04:28:17 pm
Quote from Prime Hunter:
(Oh, and I think it was Dragonfangs that mentioned the item locations, not me.)


So it was.  My mistake.
Dai Grepher
2006-04-13 04:43:40 pm
Quote from Chanoire:
1) He says that the SM intro refers to Samus's first encounter with metroids, without naming the adventure in which this occurs. At the time of the game's release, the first encounter known to the gaming audience was the NES Metroid; however, if there had been any encounter previous to Metroid not yet revealed to the gaming audience then the SM intro would refer to that; it's referring to the earliest in Samus's history, not that of the gamer. So if ZM is a prequel to Metroid, "first encounter" would be ZM rather than M1. (However, "next", as Prime Hunter pointed out, knocks this for a loop unless one posits a second adventure on SR-388 before Metroid.)


That is true up until the last part. The first statement refers to the fact that Samus first battled the Metroids on Zebes. That does not directly refer to any game or mission. The next statement refers to Metroid, as that is the only mission it could be referring to based upon the facts (i.e. Mother Brain is the Space Pirate leader, the plot is the same). So saying she next fought the Metroids on SR388 jumps from Metroid to Metroid II. Even in the remake timeline Samus skips the Metroid Prime missions when describing the backstory to Super Metroid. Samus making a long story short and not mentioning information that was irrelevant to the Super Metroid backstory can explain this.

Quote from Chanoire:
3) Dai doesn't actually think SM is a remake; he's just repeating everything about ZM being a remake in that fashion to try to show that the reasoning is insufficient and absurd because we dismiss the idea of SM being a remake out of hand. He's missing the scale for it, though; calling a port a remake is a lot more reasonable and likely than calling a new game a port, or a port a new game...I forget which he said.


Calling a new game a remake, which is what is done with Zero Mission. It is a new game, but people still call it a remake. They say it is because everything is changed around. Same with Super Metroid. Things are added to Metroid. Same with Super Metroid. Many of the old areas look the same as Metroid. Same with Super Metroid (more so with SM). The basic plot is the same. Same with Super Metroid.

The storyline details of Super Metroid are different though. Same with Zero Mission. There are more bosses in Super Metroid. Same with Zero Mission. There are extra items in Super Metroid. Same with Zero Mission. If Super Metroid were a remake there would be numerous inconsistencies. Same with Zero Mission. My favorite, Zero Mission must be a remake since Samus would not go to Zebes to defeat Kraid, Ridley, and Mother Brain twice.

This also negates the argument that "remakes change things" because it can be applied to Super Metroid as well.

Quote from Chanoire:
Finally, a comment of my own is that considering the lack of single wall jump in Fusion as an in-game story element supporting significance in gaining and losing abilities is nuts. The storytelling structure of Fusion made it necessary to keep the player from getting ahead of things, and the single walljump is an ability which is entirely optional -- the double wall jump which the Etecoons actually "taught" her is in Fusion; it's only the repeated single wall jump, which the Etecoons do not demonstrate, which is disabled. For that matter, Ekarderif and Sess both showed ways to manage it by utilizing other aspects of the game's physics.


The Etecoons showed Samus a wall-to-wall jump, which is not the same as the single wall jump. The fact that she cannot use the single wall jump in Fusion proves that she loses abilities like those. Therefore the quote stating that she did not know she had those abilities identifies the wall jump as an ability and not a game mechanic, and it also proves that losing such abilities before this made Samus doubt she had obtained them again, which explains the statement.

Quote from Chanoire:
Which is also a perfectly viable means in ZM. See attachment.


OK, so Samus can get there using missiles. That path is still on the wrong side of the room, and the one in Metroid does not require missiles to open.

Quote from Chanoire:
I've lost track of what you're trying to say with that, but it's clear that you don't play the flute.


Of course not, but Kejardon was trying to use it as an example. My analogy shows that Samus' suit losses and obtains certain abilities that change the capabilities of the suit. Thus, Samus would not know what abilities she had with the new suit configuration in Super Metroid.

Quote from BlueGlass:
Proof please?


The Metroid Prime manual I said.

http://metroid.retrofaction.com/resources/mpmanual.txt

Some of the unimportant words in that document are not accurate though.

Quote from BlueGlass:
Also, the point of Dragonfangs's post was to show that the item locations in M1 and MZM were very similar, while the items in SM were in completely different locations.


Similar does not mean exactly the same. Also, the different placement in Super Metroid can be attributed to the redesign of the areas.

Quote from Tahngarthor:
Define "Most people."


Those that think Zero Mission is a remake, and that the Super Metroid flashback is referring to Zero Mission.

Quote from Tahngarthor:
That aside, There is no way for Super Metroid to refer to a game that, at the time, didn't exist.


Metroid's prologue referred to missions that did not exist as games. Super Metroid did as well.

Quote from Tahngarthor:
You watch Samus defeat the mother brain in a tourian that looks more like the NES one against a mother brain that looks nothing like the ZM one.


"All of those games were made by different people. You cannot expect any one design team to restrict themselves to the design of a prior team".

If you disagree with the above, then do you then admit that Super Metroid refers to Metroid and not Zero Mission with that flashback?

Quote from Tahngarthor:
ZM as a game did not exist, the creators would not flash back to something that doesnt exist (and really, I dont think at the time Super Metroid was released, that they planned to do a remake or prequel of any of those games at that time).


They would not have to. Metroid said there were missions prior to it, and since Super Metroid remade it and depicted a prior mission, it fits the original storyline and expands upon it by actually going into detail of what one of those missions featured.

Quote from Spine Shark:
I think this must be because there is no precedent for such a similar game being completely different in the story...


Well, if Konami made a statement about it being a remake, then I would believe it. I have not seen on though, but that does not mean one does not exist. The reason I heard for it being a remake was the fact that Dracula resurrects once every one hundred years. The time between Castlevania and Super Castlevania cannot be 100 years since Simon Belmont would be too old. However, other games show that Dracula can resurrect before the 100 years is up. Usually he is then only at a fraction of his strength unless powered up by other forces. It is possible that Dracula was resurrected in this way, but not in Super Castlevania. That intro does depict Dracula being resurrected because of the 100 year rule, which states that the forces of light weaken thus it cannot prevent him from coming back. So Dracula may have been resurrected prematurely before the first game, or perhaps he was not but simply lived a long time without being fought by a Belmont, then was beaten by Simon only a few years before the 100-year anniversary then resurrected on that anniversary.
However, I am not 100% sure of that, and I do not think I want to dedicate as much time to that series right now.

Quote from Spine Shark:
But Super does not feature these areas or this music...the developers either intended a strong connection...or were lazy.


Maybe they just wanted to make the best of those areas, instead of just throwing them out to make new ones. I think they just wanted to bring out the fullest potential of those areas by making them to be unique and different Metroid at the same time.

Quote from Spine Shark:
Besides, Ridley's room, though altered in size, exists in essentially the same position as it does in MZM...not so sure about Kraid's, since I still don't know what it looks like in ZM, but the tall "escape column" is definitely in both games.


Right, but the rooms in the lairs are completely different or go in different directions. Also, Kraid's area has the bottom left part cut off completely along with Fake Kraid. Plus, none of the art is even similar. I think a remake would have at least made the areas have the same wall, floor, and ceiling art (the blue wire mesh in Metroid is solid purple stone in Zero Mission and the green wire mesh is solid green stone in Zero Mission) like they did with the first vertical shaft having the white and gray bricks.

Quote from Spine Shark:
Okay, I think I've figured this out. Should a person use logic to argue your points, you will demand "facts." Should a person present anything you may consider a "fact" you will simply ignore any conclusion they may draw from it.


There are no facts concerning the wall jump ability and the physics behind it. There are facts concerning Zero Mission's place in the timeline. You need to be able to discern the difference between the two issues.

Quote from Spine Shark:
I do not believe there is any way for you to prove that Samus herself is unable to jump up a wall in RoS.


The fact that it cannot be done proves that she cannot wall jump. Also, the fact that Samus loses the wall jump ability in Fusion proves that abilities like those can be lost and obtained again.

Quote from Spine Shark:
Just because the game does not feature any input for this action is not proof, since the game features no player input for diagonal aiming either.


The aim needed a button command. The wall jump is an ability that had buttons assigned to it. The wall jump could not be done even though it had all the necessary buttons.
The main point is that Samus said she did not know she had those abilities. That can be attributed to the fact that she does lose said abilities before Super Metroid. Therefore, her statement refers to her not known that she had recovered those lost abilities. There is no contradiction.

Quote from Spine Shark:
Before you forget the real meaning of this argument, I'm simply trying to show that the game developers either don't care about all that consistency, or that they are capable of making mistakes in that consistency, that seem far more important than the way some glass breaks.


There is no statement that Samus learned these abilities in Super Metroid, therefore there is no contradiction.

Quote from nn12000:
But teh original Metroid didn't have Wall Jumping either. Wall Jumping and Diagnal Aiming were added in Zero Mission. These probably weren't added in teh original because there wasn't much of a need for them, though they would've been helpful (specially with the Zoomers on the floor that you couldn't duck and kill). Being able to crouch was also added in ZM. The reason that the Original Metroid didn't include any of this was maybe because the NES was such a simple system with little memory to spare, preventing them from adding these abilities. (Might also explain why everything looked the same)


"Same with Super Metroid."

None of that proves that Zero Mission remade Metroid, because Super Metroid featured all of that before Zero Mission did.

Quote from nn12000:
People who have played BOTH ZM and M1 should realize that most of the areas are identicle in layout, and the items are found in the same place, with the addition of a few items and areas in ZM.


They are not identical they are similar. However, some areas are where they are located in Metroid, which means that some areas and layouts are different.

Quote from nn12000:
Many people would think that obviously these games are basically the same. Even Samus' gun is at the same height as it was in Metroid 1.


Just because it takes place in the same areas does not mean it is the same game. Zero Mission's areas are undeveloped and less detailed than the areas in Metroid. This shows that Zero Mission takes place in an earlier time frame.

Quote from nn12000:
The overall gameplay of ZM is supposed to be exactly like Metroid 1, which is what Ninendo was going for.


Wrong. Sakamoto said they were going for the original style of gameplay, but at the same time making it fresher and newer for this generation of gamers.

Quote from nn12000:
Nintendo intended Zero Mission to be a perfect remake of Metroid 1, with added extra's they couldn't add in the original. Which might be why they remade it, to add teh extra's they couldn't have back in teh 80's.


Nintendo intended Super Metroid to be a perfect remake of Metroid 1, with added extra's they couldn't add in the original. Which might be why they remade it, to add teh extra's they couldn't have back in teh 80's.

Quote from primetime:
Normally that would be common sense, but Dai's going to avoid all common sense and say that you have no proof.


That is not common sense. Common sense is following the facts.

Quote from primetime:
And Dai, after 12 pages of walls of text you still haven't proven that zero mission is a prequel. Sure, you've provided evidence, but I still have yet to see any solid, "undeniable" proof that zero mission is a prequel. If you give me some solid proof about it then maybe I'll believe you. But until then I'm sticking to my instinct and saying that ZM is a remake.


I proved this in the first post with my link to the presentation. I would like to know this though. Why doesn't:

"...Samus Aran's first mission finally unfolds..." - Zero Mission box
and
"Samus had completed numerous missions..." - Metroid prologue

...prove to you that Zero Mission is a prequel? How can Zero Mission be the first mission and still be Metroid, which has missions before it? Please explain that one to me.

Quote from primetime:
(lemme guess, I have no proof that ZM is a remake, right? Either that or I have no proof that its not a sequel)


All you have to do is tell me why you think the above facts do not prove that the game is a prequel. You do not even have to given me evidence. I just want to know what you think, because it is not my goal to convince you that the game is a prequel. To me, I have already proven this beyond a shadow of a doubt, right now I just want to know what you think.

Quote from Kejardon:
Okay, now you're being REALLY ignorant of my posts. You contradict me then say the same thing I said a second ago. The only part you didn't repeat was that Metroid was replaced by Super Metroid, which you seem to flip flop between affirming and denying.


Sorry, you did state the facts correctly that time. Yes, Super Metroid refers to a fact, not a mission.

Quote from Kejardon:
You said already that you are not officially taking the view that Super Metroid is a remake of Metroid. The in-game introduction makes that idea pretty ridiculous anyways.


I am not taking that view, but I am arguing it the same way you argue the Zero Mission remake theory.

Quote from Kejardon:
On the other hand, it is entirely sensible for the timeline to go Metroid --> Metroid II --> Metroid 3 (Super Metroid), both from the game production order, and from the storylines explained within the games.


The storyline was remade though remember? They remade Metroid to be a sequel to Metroid II, then they made Zero Mission to be the prequel to Metroid II.

Quote from Kejardon:
You play the character. You do not literally become the character. (seriously, try selling that to a serious roguelike player. I'd love to see the response. )


The message says that we experience it as Samus, not literally become the character. The message about storyline on the other hand states literal facts about Zero Mission's place in the timeline.

Quote from Kejardon:
Your point is that the quote says 'Metroid: Zero Mission, her first mission as an intergalactic bounty hunter', and according to a literal interpretation of that, ZM is the first mission Samus ever takes. My point is that this quote is not to be interpreted literally, as evidenced by the first half of the quote, therefor invalidating your point.


The first half of the quote has nothing to do with storyline. You are just making up excuses to disregard the facts. Give up.

Quote from Kejardon:
... what? I honestly don't know what you mean with that. (yes, I know what comparison-contrast means, but I have no idea how it can sensibly apply to that)


Metroid and Zero Mission take place in the same areas. Zero Mission shows the earlier version of those areas and Metroid shows the later.

Quote from Kejardon:
... again, I have no idea what you are talking about.


Nintendo.com presents a prologue to Zero Mission that is completely different from Metroid's. Zero Mission is not Metroid no matter how you interpret that Nintendo.com prologue.

Quote from Kejardon:
Fine, I'll connect the dots for you real quick then. M1 Manual wrote:
The Federation researchers had named it "Metroid" and were bringing it back to Earth - when it was stolen by space pirates!
...
After a desperate search, the Federation Police have at last found the pirates' headquarters, the fortress planet Zebes, and launched a general attack. But the pirates' resistance is strong, and the Police have been unable to take the planet. Meanwhile, in a room hidden deep within the center of the fortress, the preparations for multiplying the Metroid are progressing steadily.

The phrasing about extracting the metroids is a bit strange, but still sensible: From the sounds of it, they've established their base, set up and completed research, and are nearing ready for using Metroids as war weapons. They then send in a ship to pick up the Metroids for use in battle.
After all, there are no Metroids seen except in Tourian, and Samus apparently destroyed them all when destroying Tourian. Otherwise Ridley wouldn't need to go to Ceres and steal one, which led to Zebes' complete destruction in Super Metroid.


Except if all that happened already then Samus would not have been sent to investigate mere rumors of a "deadly alien species".

Quote from Kejardon:
I have directly answered this at least twice already. I have indirectly answered this probably around 10 times or more.


You have only avoided answering the question.

Quote from Kejardon:
Let's go and say it yet AGAIN: Nintendo often implies 'First game' when it says 'First mission/adventure'.


"Often" means sometimes, or at least more than once. Name two times that Nintendo has done this.

Quote from Kejardon:
When they said 'first mission' in their description, it was expected that the readers would think 'first game'. Nintendo does this because they like drama, and 'game' is not a dramatic word.
Yes, this is 'my opinion'. My opinion, however, is supported by evidence which I have pointed out all through this topic.


You provided no evidence that Nintendo is dramatic when it comes to storyline information. I have proven that Nintendo is literal when it comes to storyline information. You have also not proven that Nintendo was dramatic in the NOA response, so you have not proven anything in this topic other than that you ignore the facts.

Quote from Kejardon:
It is the Zero Mission story, and the Metroid I story. Because they are the same story.


All manual, in-game, and official information prove that Zero Mission and Metroid are different missions and stories.

Quote from Kejardon:
That's the view according to most people here on M2K2, myself included (seriously, I think you're the only exception).


In this case, you have not proven that Super Metroid does not remake Metroid. Therefore you cannot disprove the theory that Super Metroid refers only to Zero Mission in the intro.

Quote from Kejardon:
I don't see any relevance to that. Though I'm really weak on Zelda's storyline, personally - I don't know what the Imprisoning War is.


Nintendo often refers to games that do not exist in games that they just made. The Imprisoning War is backstory relevant to Link to the Past. However, no adventure or quest was ever made before this that featured the Imprisoning War story. Some people think that Ocarina of Time did feature this story. This would match the Super Metroid remake theory, as Super Metroid referred to a mission that we have not played yet, then Zero Mission was made to be that mission.
See, Nintendo is literal when it comes to storyline all the time, as I have proven all throughout this topic.

Quote from Kejardon:
Ok, then you haven't answered this point: Kejardon wrote:
The only way Zero Mission's storyline doesn't overlap with Metroid's is if Zero Mission changes the meaning of Super Metroid's introduction, which *you* have insisted, not other people. *I* insist that Zero Mission does *not* change any storyline, but adds detail instead, within the story of Metroid I.


That is a baseless and incorrect assumption on your part. I have no reason to respond to your own misunderstanding of the storyline.

Quote from Kejardon:
On a side note, what is 'my logic' that you're mocking? Because the main evidence I see that Zero Mission is a remake (or at the very least, cannot occur before Metroid I) is Super Metroid's introduction.


Is that all? Super Metroid never referred to Metroid with the "first battled the Metroids on Zebes" statement. Therefore, Zero Mission taking place before Metroid and it fitting the facts stated in Super Metroid makes it consistent with Super Metroid's statement.
Also, the illogic that I am mocking is the idea that "remakes change things, so inconsistencies in the game and in the story are not proof of a different adventure". Super Metroid as a remake has many inconsistencies, none of which matter when you apply your illogic to that theory.

Quote from Kejardon:
Calling Super Metroid a remake of Metroid contradicts Super Metroid's introduction; the same logic that I'm using against ZM being a prequel also says that Super Metroid isn't a remake of Metroid.


Super Metroid's introduction is not contradicted. Zero Mission takes Metroid's place in the timeline, and Metroid is remade into Super Metroid. Zero Mission's battle with the Metroids took place on Zebes, and the flashback to Samus defeating Mother Brain is a reference to Zero Mission. I see no contradictions there. Even if one existed I can still apply your illogic to the situation. "You cannot expect designers to make everything match 100%. Mistakes are bound to be made."

Quote from Kejardon:
I'd argue against your logic, but the point is still moot. Twice over, even. And this post is long enough.


Another point you evaded. Samus lost those abilities. She assumed those abilities could not be performed even when regaining the items necessary to perform them (i.e. the High Jump does not allow for Spring Ball). The animals showed her how to unleash those abilities. Thus, Samus did not learn the abilities from the animals she was shown how to unlock the abilities she did not know she had during Super Metroid's mission.

Quote from Dragonfangs:
No, I haven't. I proved that, based on item locations, ZM is a lot more likely to be remake than SM is.


Sure, but that does not mean Super Metroid is not or hat Zero Mission is. That was my point.

Quote from Dragonfangs:
Omitted/redesigned areas is a moot point, ALL main upgrades in Metroid (duplicates of beams do not count as they have a logical reason to be removed) are in the same geographical place in Zero Mission, the same thing CANNOT be said about Super Metroid.


The same geographical locations do not exist in Super Metroid though because those areas were remade. Zero Mission was just made based on the original design. That is all.

Quote from Dragonfangs:
Means of getting there and how the nearby rooms look is irrelevant. And Long Beam is not present in Super Metroid in the form of an upgrade.


It is still present. They removed the second Ice Beam from Zero Mission, and they removed the Long Beam in Super Metroid for reasons unknown. Perhaps to save space.

Quote from Purple Lizard:
That all said, I myself believe that MZM is a remake of M1 simply because of the way it feels, which is something Kejardon and some others touched upon.


The feeling of Zero Mission while playing it is also what lead me to my conclusion. Mine was that the game was a prequel and this was because all of the areas, while being in the same locations as Metroid, were very different in appearance and not in the graphical sense. The areas were all very rough and looked older than the areas in Metroid. The item locations being different or at least looking very different also lead me to conclude that Zero Mission took place at an earlier point in time. Still I made no conclusion at that time. The new bosses and areas also influenced me to believe that this was a new adventure taking place in areas that also appear in Metroid, yet in Zero Mission they were very different. My mind was made up when I returned to the destroyed Tourain and entered the Mother Brain room from the left side. The rooms before that were convincing me more and more that this was a new adventure, but when I walked into that room and saw Mother Brain's pod completely blown to scrap metal, that is then that I was convinced that Zero Mission was a new adventure.

It was not until later that I read the box and saw that it was Samus' first mission. I never once got the impression that the game was a remake of Metroid while playing the game. I had not read any of the internet reviews before this either. There are others that felt the same way while playing the game. It could be a matter of interpretation, or it could be a matter of how the game was presented to someone. With me, there was no presentation. I simply picked the game up and played it without knowing what it was or what place it had in the timeline.

Quote from Purple Lizard:
When I played SM for the very first time back in 1994, there was really no doubt in my mind that it was a sequel and not a remake, not just because of the intro, but because everything was ENTIRELY different, with the exception of a few nostalgic places like the old tourian shaft, the original metroid starting point, etc. The music was entirely different, the map layouts, enemy designs, everything. It was a whole new exploration experience.


No review sites were stating that it was a remake either. I think a lot of people assume it is a remake because that is what most website were saying.

I have a question. Having played Metroid and Super Metroid, what did you think when you entered the Mother Brain room after it was destroyed in Zero Mission?

Quote from Purple Lizard:
I really feel that it is impossible, or at least very highly improbable that anyone who had played M1 for a huge quantity of time and now playing MZM for the very first time did not draw upon their memories of the first game to locate stuff.


I did this too, but that does not mean it is a remake of Metroid. It just means that the game takes place in the same areas. Even Nintendo said that both games begin in the same place, but it becomes immediately obvious that Zero Mission's adventure is very different from Metroid's. While I assumed that it copied locations from Metroid, the areas all looked so very different that I never got the impression that I was in the same area. I knew the location but it never felt like the same area as in Metroid.
This is like the Wrecked Ship area in Zero Mission. It felt like the same place, but not the same area.

Quote from Purple Lizard:
That couldn't happen in SM, but it sure as hell could happen for the majority of MZM. Chozo statues aside, you just knew to go all the way up the first blue shaft and make a left for the long beam.


That is because that was the only foreseeable way you could go. The game directed you that way. In Metroid you would enter the first blue door you found, but in Zero Mission it prevented you from taking that classic route, unless you knew about the secret passage.

Quote from Purple Lizard:
The missile door no longer blocking the way is a moot point, because of the fact that it's still there.


No it is not. The Long Beam can be obtained before the missiles, which is not the classic order of events. That made it feel like a new mission. Other things like this also made it feel like a new mission. While playing, I felt that it was a new mission, but I did not know where to place it until later when I was absolutely sure of it.

Quote from Purple Lizard:
Same with many of the other item locations that I believe Prime Hunter listed. Seasoned veterans of the first game KNEW to look in those locations even without chozo hints or whatever because they've already done it before in M1. Sure there may be some differences here and there, but the very feel of the original game remains intact.


The only thing that remains the same is the basic layout. Even that was a little different however. How each area looks falls into a range from "vaguely resembles" to "completely different". That is what made me think that Zero Mission was a new mission. Item placement and level design, which is very different in some cases, do not matter and none of that made me think I was playing Metroid all over again. What would have made me think that is Fake Kraid, but it was not in the game so I did not feel like it was Metroid.

Quote from Purple Lizard:
Players can hear the heroic march of the Brinstar theme, or the haunting Kraid's lair melody, and reflect back to the first game. Even the enemy designs are just updated sprites of the enemies in the first game.


Sorry, but no. The music made me remember Metroid, but it did not make me think that Zero Mission was Metroid. Kraid's theme made me remember that area, but so did the design of that first room. I saw that area as the same place but at an earlier time, because again, many other parts of that area looked completely different from Metroid. They looked new, which made me think it was a new mission.

Quote from Purple Lizard:
Conversely, those who play MZM very extensively and now playing M1 for the first time (conveniently unlockable on the same cartridge) would be able to identify all of the item locations, enemies, music, map layouts, etc. even if everything is very rustic, and much more difficult to control and navigate, because it's essentially the same game, except one is much more updated.


They are not the same game at all because of the design, and I do not think you can speak for people that played Metroid after completing Zero Mission.

Quote from Purple Lizard:
To use an analogy, M1 would be like looking at an old concept sketch, and MZM would be like the final product that someone else was commissioned to do based on that concept sketch. Yes, there may be some details shifted around a bit, it's all colored in now, and polished up, but the very essence of the original concept drawing still lies in it.


I say that it is a new picture based off of an old one. I see Metroid as a painting of the Roman Coliseum as it looks today, and Zero Mission as a painting of how the Roman Coliseum may have looked as it did long ago.
SABERinBLUE
2006-04-13 04:53:20 pm
Cook of the Sea
Quote from Dai Grepher:
That is a baseless and incorrect assumption on your part. I have no reason to respond to your own misunderstanding of the storyline.


Wow, respect minus minus.  Can't be bothered to say why Kej is wrong, you can just say he's wrong and leave it at that? 

Dai, I have a serious question.  Have you ever taken a Logic class?  I am merely curious.
BlueGlass
2006-04-13 05:32:54 pm
Okay, Dai, I've given up attempting to convince you of what just about every Metroid fan except you sees as the truth, because you seem to have completely different ideas of logic, fact, interpretation, and evidence from the rest of the world.  Instead, I will simply do as you request and state why I believed MZM to be a remake upon first playing it

Firstly, I found out about the game from a friend of mine who gets NintendoPower magizine.  He said that the magizine had announced that Nintendo was making a remake of the original NES Metroid entitled Metroid Zero Mission.  However, even if I had not heard that, I instantly realized upon reading the instruction manual "Hey, the story is the same as Metroid's!"  Upon reading the back of the box, I, like many other people, interpreted "first mission" not literally (which is, as Kejardon has said multiple times, still an interpretation) , but saw it as referring to Metroid.  When I had played the game for a little while, i realized that the map and item layouts were practically identical to those in Metroid.  From all these facts and interpretations, I came to the conclusion that MZM was an enhanced remake of the NES metroid.
Dragonfangs
2006-04-13 05:38:58 pm
Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Purple Lizard:
Conversely, those who play MZM very extensively and now playing M1 for the first time (conveniently unlockable on the same cartridge) would be able to identify all of the item locations, enemies, music, map layouts, etc. even if everything is very rustic, and much more difficult to control and navigate, because it's essentially the same game, except one is much more updated.


They are not the same game at all because of the design, and I do not think you can speak for people that played Metroid after completing Zero Mission.


I can confirm Purple Lizards statement. I tried playing Metroid several times but constantly got lost and therefore never made it even to the bombs. But after finishing Zero Mission and getting all endings, I tried Metroid again and instantly knew where everything was. There were even a lot of times when I thought to myself "Woah, ZM really did keep the feel of the original" or "I never would've been able to find anything if it weren't for ZM".
spineshark
2006-04-13 06:27:24 pm
in the name of justice!
Quote:
The aim needed a button command. The wall jump is an ability that had buttons assigned to it.

IF IT HAS BUTTONS ASSIGNED TO IT, IT IS A BUTTON COMMAND.

Besides, can't you press up+right/left in ZM to aim diagonally if you're feeling ghetto?  Somebody tell me that one of these games has that...

Do you even think about what the words mean?  Are you just disagreeing?
Either way, I don't care.  You argue like a five-year-old (just saying "no it's not" over and over).  I bow to your superior stubbornness.
BlueGlass
2006-04-13 06:29:12 pm
Quote from Spine Shark:
Besides, can't you press up+right/left in ZM to aim diagonally if you're feeling ghetto?


Yup, and it works with aimimg down, too.
RT-55J
2006-04-13 06:47:53 pm
Armor Guardian
MOD EDIT:  NO THIRD PERSON, GOD DAMMIT.
Ekarderif
2006-04-13 06:55:14 pm
As the resident narcissistic asshole, I only have one thing to say:

Dai Grepher: a giant popsicle who spews putridity through every orifice when attempting to "dispute".

See also: lawyer, politician, or Bush.

That and this whole debate is pointless.

I guess that's two things.
Chanoire
2006-04-13 07:51:26 pm
Did way too much digging here, since I couldn't remember where (or when) some statements were made...

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Plus, none of the art is even similar. I think a remake would have at least made the areas have the same wall, floor, and ceiling art (the blue wire mesh in Metroid is solid purple stone in Zero Mission and the green wire mesh is solid green stone in Zero Mission) like they did with the first vertical shaft having the white and gray bricks.

[earlier] A true remake simply updates designs.

Anyway, I think Nintendo would make it similar enough because it would be a REMAKE. Look at the other remakes made by Nintendo. They are all the same except with a few added bonuses or edited storyline (i.e. Mario and Zelda).

You seem to be the only person who defines a remake so narrowly -- you do realize that you're using YOUR definition of remake (and of "similar enough") here and not some official standard one, right?  Indeed, remakes do not need to be exactly the same.  Some of them are very different.  The RPG series Lunar, consisting of four separate stories, has had three out of four remade for different platforms, one of them twice.  The dungeons are completely different, some events are rearranged or added, and some story and character elements are changed quite drastically.  The two remakes of the first installment have totally different music from the original.  Yet it is undeniable that they are the same story, the same episode in the world history, the same game.

It seems by your logic you would consider the GBA version of A Link to the Past to be a separate story because the block puzzle in Level 5 was changed and the Four Sword dungeon was added, thus it is not identical to the SNES release.

Actually, maybe it's moot:
Quote from Dai Grepher:
Similar does not mean exactly the same. Also, the different placement in Super Metroid can be attributed to the redesign of the areas.

I never claimed that Zero Mission's should have copied the sprites exactly, just that it should be similar.

And should not similarity also be acceptable for item location?


Quote from Dai Grepher:
The fact that it cannot be done [in Metroid II] proves that she cannot wall jump.

The aim needed a button command. The wall jump is an ability that had buttons assigned to it. The wall jump could not be done even though it had all the necessary buttons.

The fact that diagonal aiming cannot be done proves that she cannot aim diagonally. If you would tell me which button was specifically mapped to walljumping in the various games which do feature it, I'd really appreciate that, because I suck at it with just the regular jump button and the d-pad.  Also, I don't know how to dash in ZM and Fusion because there's no button assigned to it.  Maybe there weren't enough buttons on the GBA for that...oh, maybe there was a button missing on the original GB and the NES that prevented diagonal aiming.  Since, you know, you said that Samus could aim diagonally, it was just the player that couldn't...wait.


Quote from Dai Grepher:
You provided no evidence that Nintendo is dramatic when it comes to storyline information. I have proven that Nintendo is literal when it comes to storyline information. You have also not proven that Nintendo was dramatic in the NOA response, so you have not proven anything in this topic other than that you ignore the facts.

You have not proven that Nintendo is literal -- you have indicated your belief that this is the case and then cited statements which do not support this as "mistakes".  However, you also said this:
Quote from Dai Grepher:
So saying she next fought the Metroids on SR388 jumps from Metroid to Metroid II. Even in the remake timeline Samus skips the Metroid Prime missions when describing the backstory to Super Metroid. Samus making a long story short and not mentioning information that was irrelevant to the Super Metroid backstory can explain this.

This indicates that the storyline is NOT literal, as a literal reading of her statement would say that Prime and Echoes could not have happened then.  Nintendo did not take the storyline as presented in SM literally, therefore they are OK with revising it to accommodate later releases.  Furthermore:
Quote from Dai Grepher:
In fact, Metroid Prime states that the pirates knew about the Metroids and studied them for many years beneath Zebes' surface even as Samus was being raised there by the Chozo.

And yet the ZM intro states something along the lines of "I called this place home, once, long before evil haunted the caverns below."  Or are you going to argue that she wouldn't consider the pirates evil at that point?  The only other conclusion is that there's an inconsistency, because Nintendo did not take the storyline already existing literally.


Quote from Dai Grepher:
Space refers to all of space, not just one section. If they wanted to restrict Samus' bounties to one galaxy, then they would have called her a bounty hunter of the galaxy rather than a space hunter.

You mean like NASA's intergalactic space shuttles?


Quote from Dai Grepher:
They are not the same game at all because of the design, and I do not think you can speak for people that played Metroid after completing Zero Mission.

I'll speak for myself, then, since ZM was the first Metroid game I completed (I'd played some of SM previously) and I saw Metroid for the first time after that.  I had no trouble seeing it as the same game.  Being, you know, familiar with the remake concept after the abovementioned Lunars.  Oh, and I followed no news websites and read no game magazines at the time. 


Quote from Dai Grepher:
I say that it is a new picture based off of an old one. I see Metroid as a painting of the Roman Coliseum as it looks today, and Zero Mission as a painting of how the Roman Coliseum may have looked as it did long ago.

And yet -- they're the same structure.  The Coliseum of today is not one built after -- or before -- and separately from the Coliseum of long ago.  By your own analogy, ZM and M1 are two renderings of the same set of events.


Quote from Dai Grepher:
Zero Mission's mini-bosses can only be skipped using items not found in Metroid though. Zero Mission's "added" mini-bosses could be on the same level as Super Metroid's "added" bosses because if you do skip them in Zero Mission you must still do so using "added" items, and thus it is still on the same level as an expansion.

This makes no sense.  What added item is used to skip Imago?  The Ice Beam?  The bombs?  And I don't see what you're argument is here.  I was using number of bosses/keys to Tourian as a way of distinguish between M1/ZM and SM, and this has nothing to do with items or expansions.


Then there's a lot of miscellaneous Dai quotes:
Quote from Dai Grepher:
I think they just reused it because Metroid is the only game that those areas appeared in along with that music.

Maybe they just wanted to make the best of those areas, instead of just throwing them out to make new ones.

Who says there were not two Wave Beams? Metroid had two Ice Beams. Perhaps Super Metroid has two but leaves the first inaccessible due to map changes.

I do not know why Nintendo would not then print the Zero Mission prologue in the manual as well. Perhaps to save money.

It is also possible that the mother had a new baby on the B.S.L. The Etecoons are also blue in Fusion, but they were green in Super Metroid. Perhaps the Etecoons can change color, but it is also possible that they are new creatures of the same species.

The wall jump could be explained by the possibility that Samus could not pull it off in Metroid II.

Metroid's manual states that the Federation called together bounty hunters, so perhaps doing work for the Federation is still considered bounty hunting.

I think they should have done the same with Zero Mission, and I do not know why they did not. Maybe they did not know how to work it into the story. The Nintendo.com prologue shows that a new backstory exists for Zero Mission.
All I know for sure is that the Metroid prologue leads into Metroid and not Zero Mission.

Metroid's Mother Brain is much harder to defeat than Zero Mission's. It probably lacks the eye beam because it concentrates on firing the gun turrets and Rinka, which are much harder to avoid.

What he said speaks for itself. He did ignore what the guy said because it was not a part of the question. Sakamoto merely answered the question, which was totally unrelated to the game being a remake or not.

Or that Sakamoto simply disregarded it as a mistake and answered what was asked of him. You do not know that this is not true so you cannot claim that Nintendo would want their fans to be confused.

It could be that as far as Sakamoto was concerned, he made it crystal clear that the game only remade the original gameplay style of Metroid but was in essence a brand new adventure. It is also likely that he thought no one could ever make the mistake of Zero Mission being a remake with all of the map, storyline, and Tourian differences that the developers placed in the game.

Or he felt like he would be able to correct it later in the interview, which he did. Or he simply did not think that the interviewer thought of the entire game as a remake, rather a remake of gameplay only as Sakamoto presented it.

It is unknown what information was taken from Nintendo power though. That reference could be referring to the first sentence only.

The NOA letter is not proof because NOA does not have all of the information.

Ever hear of Occam's Razor?  You're very frequently coming up with complex, apologetic reasons for things instead of the simplest answer.  The simplest solution is that the game is a remake, that statements -- even in-game! -- that Samus's first mission ever is the story of ZM are mistakes, that Sakamoto made no corrections because there was nothing to correct, that the Etecoons and Dachoras in Fusion are the same ones as in SM (they do appear to recognize her, after all), etc.  When you have to go to these lengths to rationalize your analysis, the chances are high that you're mistaken.
Tahngarthor
2006-04-13 08:52:51 pm
Bangaa Bishop
Personally, at this point I'm simply waiting to see if he's actually going to contribute something meaningful to these forums / this site like he said he would isntead of argue this debate forever until he's decided he's "won."

Ok, I did find 2 posts with search from Dai not in this thread. I suppose that's better than nothing.
Prime Hunter
2006-04-13 08:53:22 pm
I know I said I was done here, but you DID ask us why we believe Zero Mission to be a remake...

I had this thought even before I played the game. Back in 2003, I remember seeing a 60 second video clip from E3, which is when I first heard about the game. Even though I had hardly played the original Metroid at that time (I had never managed to get very far in it) I recognized some of the locations, and the music, from Metroid, namely the starting location and Kraid's Lair. The fact that they showed the Long Beam, an item that had only ever been in Metroid, helped me believe this.

Once I got the game and loaded it up, the intro, title screen, and music immediately made me recall the original Metroid game. I started it out, and the first time you got to control Samus was the exact starting location of Metroid, with the Morph Ball being right where it should be. As I played the early segments, I still noticed the similarities between Zero Mission and Metroid all over the place, and could piece things together based on this information.

As I progressed further in, and faced off against the new versions of Kraid and Ridley in their respective lairs, I had long been convinced that ZM was a remake. Everything I knew about Metroid from my limited skill in the game was apparent in Zero Mission. There were new segments and challenges along the way, but I contributed them to making the game a fresh experience instead of a direct copy of Metroid.

Once I completed the game, including it's extended version, I do remember booting up Metroid to check just what was changed. I remember being marvelled at how similar the games were, and that my playthrough of Zero Mission actually made me better in Metroid due to this. (I have since completed the NES Metroid a few times, but only after completing Zero Mission) I do not doubt that if it hadn't been for Zero Mission, I could still be having problems defeating Metroid without using a special password.

It comes down to this: I saw many similar components between Metroid and Zero Mission, even from my limited knowlegde of the original game. Playing Zero Mission made me recall my many attempts at solving the original game through the nostalgic elements that were thrown in. (Mainly, the locations, items, music, and even the creatures contributed to this)

I had a fair chance to see the game as a brand new adventure, but at every turn I saw too many similarities to count it as a whole new part of the storyline rather than an updated, modernized Metroid. It just wouldn't fit that way for me, and it never will.

If you want to see the original video that I saw almost three years ago, so that you can see exactly what I first did when I heard about the game, look here on Gamespot: (It's called Metroid: Zero Mission Trailer 1, at the bottom of the list of movies)

http://www.gamespot.com/gba/action/metroidzeromission/media.html?mode=all

Edit: What I said may or may not be the EXACT feelings I had, but it's basically how I remember things happening.
spineshark
2006-04-13 09:01:46 pm
in the name of justice!
Obviously, at the time of its production, Metroid II was not intended to include wall-jumping as a feature.  It certainly did not dissappoint when it came to not having wall-jumping (sorry, I've been reading Catch-22 XD ).

Samus was made a hell of a lot more agile in Metroid 3...running faster, wall jumping, midair morphing...these features did make it into Metroid Fusion.  (note that I am not even talking about single-wall-jumping, which was removed because it clearly contradicts the designer's intentions of having the player move through the game in a predetermined order, and they were successful in that regard as it is unuseful in Fusion even now that it's "possible")  Later, these "improvements" to Samus' movement were incorporated into Zero Mission.

Your argument in this regard now reads like this to me:
"Everything as presented in Metroid and Metroid II is perfectly intentional.    The designers decided to not include the wall-jump because doing so would create a story inconsistency that they still have to deal with now that it's been ten years.  They did not include diagonal aiming because the system did not have enough buttons, even though it is possible without the L button in more recent installments."

Actually, Dai, I thank you, because between this argument and this, I suddenly very much want to play Metroid II again.  Also, I wish I had a manual now, so I could write, "unfortunately, Samus has now forgotten how to jump off of walls," in it.
Dai Grepher
2006-04-13 10:50:33 pm
OK, I think I am ready to summarize and end the discussion here, as no new points are being brought up. If anyone has anything else, please refer to the presentation that I posted a link to in the first post of this thread. If that does not answer your question, please send me a PM.

Quote from SABERinBLUE:
Wow, respect minus minus. Can't be bothered to say why Kej is wrong, you can just say he's wrong and leave it at that?

Dai, I have a serious question. Have you ever taken a Logic class? I am merely curious.


Actaully, that was a mimick of something Kejardon said to me that had the same meaning behind it. I made sure that there were no points or facts to respond to when I made that reply.

I am not the only Metroid fan that sees Zero Mission as a prequel. I have posted links to other sites in the past but will not do so again. Also, there are many fans on the N-sider boards that feel as I do and most have even before I came along.

Quote from BlueGlass:
Firstly, I found out about the game from a friend of mine who gets NintendoPower magizine. He said that the magizine had announced that Nintendo was making a remake of the original NES Metroid entitled Metroid Zero Mission. However, even if I had not heard that, I instantly realized upon reading the instruction manual "Hey, the story is the same as Metroid's!" Upon reading the back of the box, I, like many other people, interpreted "first mission" not literally (which is, as Kejardon has said multiple times, still an interpretation) , but saw it as referring to Metroid. When I had played the game for a little while, i realized that the map and item layouts were practically identical to those in Metroid. From all these facts and interpretations, I came to the conclusion that MZM was an enhanced remake of the NES metroid.


You may be able to say what you would have thought had you not been told it was a remake before hand, but can you know that for sure? In any case, one group of fans made a mistake about what the game was.

Purple Lizard's statement could be true for some people, but not all fans. I also cannot take anyone's word here because it is obvious that we all have preferences on what we want Zero Mission to be, even myself I admit. I will agree with whatever Nintendo has it be, but I would rather have it be a prequel, because that is the only timeline that makes sense. It being a remake makes no sense at all, and if it were a remake, it would be a very inconsistent and non-canon one.

Quote from Spine Shark:
IF IT HAS BUTTONS ASSIGNED TO IT, IT IS A BUTTON COMMAND.

Besides, can't you press up+right/left in ZM to aim diagonally if you're feeling ghetto? Somebody tell me that one of these games has that...


The wall jump has no button command. It is a sequence of buttons pressed at the right time. That makes it a technique or an ability. Aiming has a button command and can be done at any time, except when the game does not feature it as a button.

Yes, but that too is a departure from the classic Metroid gameplay, which in that game allowed Samus to run forward while aiming straight up.

Quote from Spine Shark:
Do you even think about what the words mean? Are you just disagreeing?
Either way, I don't care. You argue like a five-year-old (just saying "no it's not" over and over). I bow to your superior stubbornness.


It has been such a pleasure discussing this with you. Please keep an eye out for my next topic.

Quote from RT-55J:
MOD EDIT: NO THIRD PERSON, *** DAMMIT.


I would like to remind whoever edited that not to take the Lord's name in vain.

A remake of the NES Metroid would have been consistent in graphics and storyline. Thus, a true remake updates. It does not change anything major. A few edits in terminology or design are acceptable as additions. Re-envisionings change things, and most of those are non-canon.

Quote from Chanoire:
It seems by your logic you would consider the GBA version of A Link to the Past to be a separate story because the block puzzle in Level 5 was changed and the Four Sword dungeon was added, thus it is not identical to the SNES release.


No, that is a remake, as my above reply shows. If it simply changes a few minor details then it is no big deal. Zero Mission on the other hand has a new design, a new story, different and new bosses, and does not match Metroid except in the cases of basic plot and basic map layout.

Quote from Chanoire:
And should not similarity also be acceptable for item location?


That quote was taken out of context. You quoted a comment arguing that Super Metroid was a remake based on remake theory logic, and applied it to my argument against Zero Mission being a remake based on factual logic. So you really just showed the difference between remake logic and sound logic.

Quote from Chanoire:
The fact that diagonal aiming cannot be done proves that she cannot aim diagonally.


There was no diagonal aim button! How can you even say that Samus cannot lift her arm to a certain angle? That is just nonsense.

Quote from Chanoire:
If you would tell me which button was specifically mapped to walljumping in the various games which do feature it, I'd really appreciate that, because I suck at it with just the regular jump button and the d-pad.


You need the jump button at least twice, and the directional pad's left and right depending on what wall you are facing. Then you need timing and the right button sequence. Jump, right or left, then opposite of that direction and jump button right after. Samus must also be against the wall when you push the D-pad in the opposite direction and then the jump button. This cannot be accomplished in Metroid or Metroid II because Samus does not have the ability.

"Her first adventure as..." indicates storyline. "First mission" indicates storyline, unless described as something else by surrounding statements. Nintendo presented us with the fact that Zero Mission was the first mission. You people overlooked that fact, but it is even worse that you continue to ignore it just because you cannot admit your initial mistake. Stop the excuses. You are not fooling anyone but yourselves

Quote from Chanoire:
This indicates that the storyline is NOT literal, as a literal reading of her statement would say that Prime and Echoes could not have happened then.


No, "next" means "after that", which is a true statement. She did not say that it was her next mission. Also, I did not say that Nintendo never described storyline in a sense that was not literal. Look at the male cyborg rumor for example. However, when Nintendo is presenting storyline information to their customers through advertising, they are giving us the facts.

Quote from Chanoire:
And yet the ZM intro states something along the lines of "I called this place home, once, long before evil haunted the caverns below." Or are you going to argue that she wouldn't consider the pirates evil at that point? The only other conclusion is that there's an inconsistency, because Nintendo did not take the storyline already existing literally.


They were evil, they just did not haunt the caverns below at that time. This was still during the time when the Chozo controlled those areas. Plus the pirates were busy with research on the Metroids. :D

It is not an inconsistency if it can be explained logically.

Quote from Chanoire:
You mean like NASA's intergalactic space shuttles?


Yes. What? Those shuttles cannot travel beyond one galaxy? They may not call it that at NASA, but only because they do not send them that far out. You are also forgetting that intergalactic means between two or more galaxies. The pirates were interstellar nomads (MP manual). Which means there were pirates that lived between the galaxies.

Quote from Chanoire:
And yet -- they're the same structure. The Coliseum of today is not one built after -- or before -- and separately from the Coliseum of long ago. By your own analogy, ZM and M1 are two renderings of the same set of events.


Yes they are pictures of the same structure, just as Zero Mission and Metroid are pictures of the same planet. However, the pictures do not display the same events. One shows gladiators fighting for their lives and freedom. The other shows tourists getting their pictures taken. You are confusing places with timeframes.

Quote from Chanoire:
This makes no sense. What added item is used to skip Imago? The Ice Beam? The bombs?


Try the Super Missiles.

Quote from Chanoire:
And I don't see what you're argument is here. I was using number of bosses/keys to Tourian as a way of distinguish between M1/ZM and SM, and this has nothing to do with items or expansions.


The point is that you cannot play the original Metroid mission within Zero Mission. You are forced to take a different route and play a new and different adventure no matter how many sequences you break. This is similar to beating two extra bosses to get to Tourian.

Quote from Chanoire:
Ever hear of Occam's Razor? You're very frequently coming up with complex, apologetic reasons for things instead of the simplest answer.


That is not true. Those were all side discussions that had nothing to do with the timeline. You cannot use side discussions as proof that the prequel timeline is complex or hard to understand. I am glad this topic is almost over with.

Quote from Chanoire:
The simplest solution is that the game is a remake, that statements -- even in-game! -- that Samus's first mission ever is the story of ZM are mistakes, that Sakamoto made no corrections because there was nothing to correct, that the Etecoons and Dachoras in Fusion are the same ones as in SM (they do appear to recognize her, after all), etc.


This simplest solution is "who cares". However that does not help those who do care. Also, Sakamoto did make a correction the second time, so you are wrong on that too. What makes you think they recognized Samus? Samus did not even look the same as she did in Super Metroid. Your theory does not fit the facts. Occam's razor is on my side, though it is not a deciding factor or anything like that.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
I know I said I was done here, but you DID ask us why we believe Zero Mission to be a remake...

I had this thought even before I played the game. Back in 2003, I remember seeing a 60 second video clip from E3, which is when I first heard about the game. Even though I had hardly played the original Metroid at that time (I had never managed to get very far in it) I recognized some of the locations, and the music, from Metroid, namely the starting location and Kraid's Lair. The fact that they showed the Long Beam, an item that had only ever been in Metroid, helped me believe this.


So you had an idea of what it was before you even played it?

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Once I got the game and loaded it up, the intro, title screen, and music immediately made me recall the original Metroid game. I started it out, and the first time you got to control Samus was the exact starting location of Metroid, with the Morph Ball being right where it should be. As I played the early segments, I still noticed the similarities between Zero Mission and Metroid all over the place, and could piece things together based on this information.

As I progressed further in, and faced off against the new versions of Kraid and Ridley in their respective lairs, I had long been convinced that ZM was a remake. Everything I knew about Metroid from my limited skill in the game was apparent in Zero Mission. There were new segments and challenges along the way, but I contributed them to making the game a fresh experience instead of a direct copy of Metroid.


So you never got very far in Metroid, but still thought of the areas as updated versions of levels you did not reach? Well, to each his own I guess.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Once I completed the game, including it's extended version, I do remember booting up Metroid to check just what was changed. I remember being marvelled at how similar the games were, and that my playthrough of Zero Mission actually made me better in Metroid due to this. (I have since completed the NES Metroid a few times, but only after completing Zero Mission) I do not doubt that if it hadn't been for Zero Mission, I could still be having problems defeating Metroid without using a special password.

It comes down to this: I saw many similar components between Metroid and Zero Mission, even from my limited knowlegde of the original game. Playing Zero Mission made me recall my many attempts at solving the original game through the nostalgic elements that were thrown in. (Mainly, the locations, items, music, and even the creatures contributed to this)

I had a fair chance to see the game as a brand new adventure, but at every turn I saw too many similarities to count it as a whole new part of the storyline rather than an updated, modernized Metroid. It just wouldn't fit that way for me, and it never will.

If you want to see the original video that I saw almost three years ago, so that you can see exactly what I first did when I heard about the game, look here on Gamespot: (It's called Metroid: Zero Mission Trailer 1, at the bottom of the list of movies)

http://www.gamespot.com/gba/action/metroidzeromission/media.html?mode=all


Thanks. I believe you when you say that, and I think that if my presentation entertained you at all, then it was worth it. We just have a difference of opinions I suppose.

Quote from Spine Shark:
"Everything as presented in Metroid and Metroid II is perfectly intentional. The designers decided to not include the wall-jump because doing so would create a story inconsistency that they still have to deal with now that it's been ten years. They did not include diagonal aiming because the system did not have enough buttons, even though it is possible without the L button in more recent installments."

Actually, Dai, I thank you, because between this argument and this, I suddenly very much want to play Metroid II again. Also, I wish I had a manual now, so I could write, "unfortunately, Samus has now forgotten how to jump off of walls," in it.


Whatever. As long as you know that the animals from Super Metroid did not teach Samus those abilities.


And with that, I declare the topic closed and the debate unsettled. If anyone has more questions, please PM me. Thanks to everyone who participated, read the presentation, and read this topic.

See you next mission.
Kejardon
2006-04-13 11:39:01 pm
Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder
Guess Dai is done here... and I didn't get to try my copy and paste refutation yet. :(
Just a few last misc. comments (not bothering with the debate here, unless Dai decides to continue it):
Quote from SABERinBLUE:
Dai, I have a serious question. Have you ever taken a Logic class? I am merely curious.

Honestly, this whole thing seems like some sort of hypothetical experiement someone decided to carry out to see what the results will be or something. I still don't believe that Dai believes his own argument. :P

Quote from Dai Grepher:
We just have a difference of opinions I suppose.

Just because this was a noteworthy quote.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
If anyone has anything else, please refer to the presentation that I posted a link to in the first post of this thread. If that does not answer your question, please send me a PM... I declare the topic closed and the debate unsettled

I don't get the reasoning behind this. If the debate is unsettled, why should the topic be closed and people PM you instead?
If you were leaving the boards, or didn't want to continue the debate, I'd understand, but 'PMs only' seems odd.
Dai Grepher
2006-04-14 12:26:48 am
It is better that I reply to people individually rather than stretch out the entire topic. Some people only continue to debate because they do not want it to look like they quit.

Also, I think we have all said what we have to say. Anything else will just be rehashing everything we said. I closed the debate with a title that everyone can be content with. If more evidence arises in the future, I will post it in this topic and open the discussion again.
nn12000
2006-04-14 12:27:40 am
Mister ...
Quote from Dai Grepher:
Nintendo intended Super Metroid to be a perfect remake of Metroid 1, with added extra's they couldn't add in the original. Which might be why they remade it, to add teh extra's they couldn't have back in teh 80's


Whoa, where'd you get that?  Super Metroid has loads of stuff that falls AFTER metroid 1.  Super Metroid is even called METROID 3, and continues after M1 & M2. Super Metroid begins where Metroid 1 ended, Tourian where the original Mother Brain and her lab were blown to itty bitty pieces.  If you watch the opening scenes, she talks about her original mission to destroy the Mother Brain and the Metroids there. She goes to SR-388 to destroy those Metroids, when she encountered the baby metroid.  She took it to the federation, shortly after she leaves, their under attack, you find Ridley (not the Original ridley, but a clone or something) whom escapes to Zebes. Where from there, you invade the planet, kill things, kill another Mother Brain, Get rescued by teh baby Metroid, Kill mother brain MKII for good this time, run like hell to escape, the end.  Sorta like Metroid 1, but not.  If super Metroid was meant to be a
Quote:
Perfect remake of Metroid 1
then the map layouts would be the same and everything.  But however, they're not.  And how would a game that describes prior events to be the same?

However, you seem to be unconvinced by all these facts that not just I, but everyone here has given you. I don't feel like going on anymore, so I give up.        See ya all in another topic.
BlueGlass
2006-04-14 12:57:14 am
Okay, you ask for our reasons why we thought on first playing that ZM was a remake and then say they are not valid.  Also, something I noticed is that you present your side as fact but our side as theory.  Since the two sides are opposite, if one is fact, the other cannot even exist, but since you have acknoweldged the existence of our side, your side cannot be fact, so throughout the entire debate you have been unfairly representing your side.  I reccomend that this debate be redone with both sides represented as theories.  No, wait, I take that back because you are far too stubborn and narrow-minded to even consider our views as having a chance of being correct.