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Cpadolf
2007-06-25 11:37:20 am
Almost happy
Done with draygon, what a pain in the ass he was... I never thought that the timing for the pb shield was so hard, a couple frames late and the shinecharge was impossible. And to my great anoyment i apparently didn't do much damage on the first spark so it took some ammo in the second round.

Got a question for hero though, how many of the pb shield projectiles did you hit him with in your old run, i never got more then 2 with the method used there.
hero of the day
2007-06-25 01:12:17 pm
I hit draygon with 3 of the PB projectiles in my movie. The key to getting 3 hits is to stay far enough in front of draygon so the bottom left projectile does not hit his back. The top left projectile will always hit his back unless you run to the center of the room, like I did in the demo that I posted earlier.

How much time have you gained on your previous run up to this point? I am really looking forward to seeing it.
Cpadolf
2007-06-25 02:34:47 pm
Almost happy
Im at the beginning of LN and a little more then 6000 frames of realtime ahead of my old run :P

Im tied (~200 frames ahead of) with Terimakasih's old run at this point which speaks good for a possible 26 since Baby metroid skip -20 seconds and some more time on armpump, using shortcharge at various places and taking the maridia route to tourian can hopefully bring my time to a high 26...

EDIT: Done with LN and ~7200 frames ahead of my old run :P

EDIT2: Heh rainy day, lots of TASing, the run is complete.

Some Info

- Still use Snes9x improovment9
- ~166000 Frames.
- ~12700 Rerecords
- ~11000 Frames faster then my old run, twice the rerecords and it took 4 times as long to do.
- ~1600 Frames faster then Terimakasih's old run,.
- The run was produced with use of frameadvance
- Aside from many notable in optimizations there are some bigger misstakes.(Not listing them all...i think)
- While climbing Redbrinstar shaft i did not switch ice on untill after the first climbing part, making it noticeable slower.
- Failed Phantoon 1 round, altough the 2 round that folowed looks good.
- Forgot to shinecharge after failng down the Redbrinstar shaft.
- Did way to little damage to draygon with the first shinecharge.
- Goal time 00:27, Finished time, 00:27 :P
- Did not use murderbeam on MB, I don't think using it would have made me a 00:26, so i did not bother to check since it would have looked like crap anyway
- Ceres escape has actually been done a lot faster by me since i did that part. I escaped with 47:35 left and have managed to do so in 48:10 since.
attachment:
CpadolfTAS.smv
moozooh
2007-06-27 05:57:37 pm
Quote from Cpadolf:
Deeply impressive that you are 9 frames ahead of moozooh, didn't see that coming :o .

Quote from Tonski:
And how the heck did you cut 9 frames from that moozooh's perfect "until bombs" WIP? That one looked so frame perfect that geez.

Probably because it wasn't perfect, duh. :)
After all, I keep a list of improvements for a reason.

Also, as soon as I finish my thesis, I will continue working on my test run. Hopefully, I will be able to release a new WIP soon.
Cpadolf
2007-06-27 07:52:57 pm
Almost happy
Quote from moozooh:
Probably because it wasn't perfect, duh. :)


Figures laugh new  Still I'm impressed though... Wonder how many frames you can shave of when doing the real run.


Quote from moozooh:
After all, I keep a list of improvements for a reason.


And how many of the saves listed do you predict you can realize?

Also you wrote that you should try to shoot some doors while falling if possible, now that is just for entertainment i presume?

Also I'd like to add, thesis?... What is that, sorry for my in understanding.

EDIT:Damn just when you least expect it, it happens. Pagebreak...
moozooh
2007-06-27 08:09:01 pm
Quote from Cpadolf:
And how many of the saves listed do you predict you can realize?

Well, where I wrote my estimated time goals, a figure on the right is what I will have to realize (or die trying, lol). Figure on the right is what I hope to realize (in other words, the theoretical limit I estimate for a given section). They are subject to change in case new timesavers are found or some of the theoretical ones are proven impossible to realize.

Quote from Cpadolf:
Also you wrote that you should try to shoot some doors while falling if possible, now that is just for entertainment i presume?

Yeah. The published runs don't shoot too much because of the lag or other problems (or just because the authors didn't want/remember to), but since lag isn't much of a concern for me as far as entertainment goes, I will shoot a lot of stuff. Including some doors. Just to excercise sharpshooting. :)

Quote from Cpadolf:
Also I'd like to add, thesis?... What is that, sorry for my in understanding.

When you graduate from a university here, you have to write a thesis, also called a diploma work (or paper). It should contain original research and all that kind of stuff. Without it, I won't be able to graduate. :(
hero of the day
2007-06-27 08:23:25 pm
By the time moozooh starts his final run, there is no doubt he will have improved upon his test run more than I have. Moozooh is a machine.


Cpadolf:

I really enjoyed watching your run, it brings back memories of the old TAS route. Your TASing ability has noticeably increased too. Do you plan on making another TAS, I am sure you can get 26 or maybe even 25 minutes. If you are interested I can post a new route for you which should get a very low in-game time. I can also do the Torizo skip for you, since it requires memory watch and perfect subpixel positions.
Saturn
2007-06-28 03:17:01 am
Quote from hero of the day:
If you are interested I can post a new route for you which should get a very low in-game time.

Shocked
Now that is something I'm really interested to hear from you, hero.
You want to say you found a completely new route even I didn't use in my run? I did a hell lot of testing of different routes, so if you share your in-game route, I could give you some detailed answers if it's really faster, or if I tested it and it's slower.

Cpadolf, congrats on your new TAS! I have to go to work now, so I can't watch it yet. I will do so today evening or tomorrow though.
Cpadolf
2007-06-28 06:43:04 am
Almost happy
Quote from hero of the day:
Cpadolf:

Do you plan on making another TAS, I am sure you can get 26 or maybe even 25 minutes.


Although I have just finished my run I admittedly am tempted to go at it again, theres always that itchy feeling that you could have done better, can go a minute lower. I should say that I will most likely do one whenever i get much free time (which shouldn't take very long since i have no job in a few weeks and the summer weather seems to have decided to be rainy constantly) Damn, i would never have guessed that TASing was so addicting.

Quote from hero of the day:
If you are interested I can post a new route for you which should get a very low in-game time.


Now THAT I'm very interested of.

Quote from hero of the day:
I can also do the Torizo skip for you, since it requires memory watch and perfect subpixel positions.



That would also be nice, but how, by sending the smv or something?

Also something i have been wondering for a long time, how exactly do you change your subpixel position? I always thought 1 pixel was the minimum you could move...
moozooh
2007-06-28 07:34:54 am
Quote from Cpadolf:
I always thought 1 pixel was the minimum you could move...

The things is that Samus's movement speed doesn't increment in full pixels: she accelerates gradually (for instance, each frame you're pressing the run button, the game increases the overall speed by 0.0625 px/f, until it reaches the limit), and by varying this acceleration, you can control her positioning in a given spot with subpixel precision. A common way to manipulate the desired subpixel position in mid-air is unspinning (spinjump = 1.375 px/f while standing jump = 1.25 px/f).

If you want to go more in-depth and understand it all better, I suggest opening memory watch and just moving around while watching the values. Once you figure out all the patterns, it gets you a really good idea on how the game actually works (and it will save time explaining things that are clearly visible in the watcher window). For instance, that's how Hotarubi was preparing himself for his runs: their community just set up a huge wiki with tons of in-depth data.

My memory watch package can be downloaded here, and looks approximately like this.
Cpadolf
2007-06-28 09:15:16 am
Almost happy
Hmm, tried the torizo skip some but couldn't get it to work, my x position when grabbing the bombs was 180,65535 and my y speed was 5 and i grabbed the bombs as close to the ground as possible and jumped at the exact same spot as moozooh but i got stuck at x=30.
My only guess would be that the doors frame counter is at 1 and not 2 but i have no possibility to check that counter
moozooh
2007-06-28 10:03:12 am
Quote from Cpadolf:
My only guess would be that the doors frame counter is at 1 and not 2 but i have no possibility to check that counter

I don't include that address in the config file since it's useful for only one location, but here's what I do:
1) in the main menu, press "Cheat" -> "Search for New Cheats";
2) scroll down to address 7EDE6A and select it;
3) press "Watch" and exit cheat menu.
The address will now be displayed on the screen. To remove it, go back to the menu and press "Clear Watches".
Cpadolf
2007-06-28 10:50:27 am
Almost happy
YES :P  Finally got it. It was easier then I thought to align myself to the right subpixel position since ~181.5xxxx still poistioned me at 180.65535.
The hardest part was without doubt to get low enough so that there was only 1 frame of air movement after i cought the bombs, that took a really long time and the two first times i succeeded the door counter was on 1...

This really gives me some motivation to do a new run since it makes it really easy to get a 26 (my time in the last run was ~27:20) And if heros route is much better then my old one a 25 will even be possible :P
moozooh
2007-06-28 11:12:34 am
Woo, go go go!
Cpadolf
2007-06-28 12:09:27 pm
Almost happy
How much time does corner boosting save, 1 frame per use or more?
hero of the day
2007-06-28 12:38:31 pm
That's awesome that you were able to get the Torizo Skip to work, you sure have a knack for TASing. Corner boosting can save 1 frame per use, but there are times where it doesn't fully push samus down far enough to gain a frame. In such cases though samus may be pushed further to the right or left, which is beneficial anyway.

Here is the route I was thinking about. After Saturn suggested doing wrecked ship first, I made some modifications. The first few parts of this are pretty basic (landing>brinstar)

1. Land ship head to morphball. Remember to corner boost in the tourian shaft. Try to execute the moozooh jump, it is a decent timesaver.

2. Collect first missile pack, try to do the catnap jump in the area with the shootable blocks.

3. Head back to crateria and get bombs (skip the torizo, obviously). Head towards brinstar elevator, and try to refill your 5 missiles in the purple diagonal cavern.

4. Once in brinstar collect the first super missile pack, remember to arm pump across the metal gates instead of mockballing.

5. Make your way to the charge beam area, collect the near by missile pack.

6. Collect charge beam, head towards the red brinstar shaft and head upwards. Remember to collect a couple super missiles on the way towards the red brinstar shaft.

7. After climbing the redbrinstar shaft, go and collect the power bombs. Go to the crateria elevator.

8. Now that you are back in createria use the Continous walljump technique to cross over the moat and collect the missile on the way.

9. Head into the wrecked ship and kill phantoon. With 3 missiles packs you can one round him. I will post a demo if you are unsure how to do it. After killing him, collect the super missile tank on your way to the top of the wrecked ship. Kill the enemies in a similar fashion that I did in my TAS.

10. Make sure you have enough energy to make it across the spike pit on the way to the gravity suit. You need at least 120 HP to cross the pit, 2 hits at 60 hp per hit.

11. After collecting gravity suit, head towards norfair. Try not to stop at the energy refill station. Once in norfair head to the right and make your way over to the speed booster.

12. After speed booster, head down into the wave beam area. Collect the missile pack that is in the way.

13. After collecting the wave beam, head back towards the brinstar elevator. Take the speed boost path way, which is quicker to gain access to with the use of power bombs.

14. Collect the energytank that is near the high jump boots. Do not collect anything else in this area. Head to the elevator and make your way to the maridia tube.

15. Enter maridia. Make your way to botwoon, use the wave beam combo on him plus 6 super missiles. Head towards draygon. Here is the tricky part: Without the highjump boots, the draygon shinespark becomes almost impossible. You only have a margin of error of 1 frame, so you can study the input on my TAS if you have any trouble. Kill draygon and maintain the blue suit. Collect the space jump.

16. Shinespark over the huge pit, using your bluesuit. Make your way to the plasma beam. Collect it and head out of maridia.

17. Make your way over to kraid's lair. His area will be much faster and easier since you have the space jump and speed booster. Kill him using a charged plasma+wave, and a single super missile. Collect the varia.

18. When leaving, grab the energy tank on the way. Make your way to norfair.

19. Once in norfair head left and collect the ice beam. This area should be faster since you have the speed booster and space jump. After collecting the ice beam, go over 2 rooms and lay a power bomb. Head down and take the long speed booster route to reach lower norfair.

20. Once in lower norfair, you should know what to do. Just head towards ridley basically using every trick possible. Kill the guardin pirates with your plasma beam and make sure you enter the ridley fight with 9 super missiles. Kill ridley and collect his energy tank.

Now make your way back to crateria using the mardia shortcut that you used in you previous run. Head towards tourian and finish off the mother brain.
Cpadolf
2007-06-28 01:00:46 pm
Almost happy
Thanks a bunch Hero, I will absolutely try this route as it will not only be faster but also a breath of fresh air for me.

My two fears for this route would be that ammo and health management will likely be much tougher and draygon will much likely be a pain since i already thought it was hard to get the shinecharge in WITH highjump boots. I guess either I will have to study your input hard or I will likely fail.

I wonder how much, if any, Saturn's route differs from this one.
hero of the day
2007-06-28 01:24:10 pm
No problem Cpadolf, glad I could help  :P

I have a feeling that Saturn's route will only be slightly different. The only things I thinks may be different are:
1) when he collects the ice beam
2) if he collects the highjump
3) He may collect 2 additional missile packs
I am probably wrong, so Saturn will correct me when he sees this  laugh new

Just to alleviate your fears, the non-high-jump shinespark can easily be done using the gravity jump. I only suggest that you not use the gravity jump because it is possible to do without it. Also this route is essentially pause menu free, so an unnecessary visit to the pause menu kinda kills it. Though it would not lengthen the in-game time if you use the gravity jump, so the decision rests in your hands.

As for energy management, you should not have any troubles after the wrecked ship area is complete. This is one of the reasons why I mentioned to pick up the energy tank in norfair, it should make things pretty easy in maridia. I am sure that botwoon's refills will almost completely refill your energy.

Weapon management also should not be too hard after the wrecked ship area. Just make sure you are never too low on super missiles. The only areas where you need alot of them is for the botwoon battle, but you could just replace 4 of them with an additional wavebeam combo.
Saturn
2007-06-28 02:51:40 pm
Thanks hero.
This is indeed pretty much the same as my route. :P

The only difference is I will pick up the High Jump Boots and the Missile, because even though it's a ~700 frame delay, it will save this amount at latest after exiting Lower Norfair. I tested the critical rooms carefully till there. On your way to Tourian, and at the escape after MB you will save some more frames that will definitely get you a faster (not that much though, but still) in-game time in the end. Although I doubt it would make a difference on the final game clock, unless you are extremely unlucky with it, I still take that route, mainly because High Jump Boots will bring new and faster jumps, and thus variety into the run. And since it will speed up some of the next rooms, it will also increase entertainment in the run because of it.

Whichever route you decide to pick, Cpadolf, I look very much forward to see the result, as it would also give me a pretty good overview of how difficult 0:23 will be reachable in my run with it (I stopped at Draygon in my old any% WIP and have no time/motivation to finish it, since I start over anyway).
Cpadolf
2007-06-28 03:02:33 pm
Almost happy
Thanks for all the help, I will consider taking highjump since it will only at worst slow me down by a couple of seconds and will ease everything up a bit plus it might save time to, my guess is that i will go ~+/- 5 seconds.

Any chance you can make that WIP public  grin new


EDIT: WTF, something reeeealy weard happened to my snes9x just now... Whenever i press any of the buttons A,B,X,Y,L,R,Down that button goes in turbo until i press it again, and it's not the usual turbo you can turn on, in fact i have no idea what button or effect i just turned on but i makes playing impossible...
Saturn
2007-06-28 04:09:04 pm
Taking HJ-Boots will be slightly faster in the end, provided you play the next rooms near frame perfect in both cases of course. 5 sec difference is a good guess, I hardly think it will be more.

Regarding the WIP, I would gladly share it, but it would just spoil too much of my final in-game oriented any% run, which would make it worthless for me to continue working on it after that. Although a few people like for example JXQ don't get it, I want the final any% TAS to be a surprise for the watcher after it's done and submitted, pretty much like most TASer (e.g. hero, moozooh and JXQ) do/did.

EDIT:
Cpadolf, I guess it's the autohold/fire function you accidently enabled. Try to go to the "Input Configuration" menu and disable all the buttons for Turbo mode.
Cpadolf
2007-06-28 04:18:40 pm
Almost happy
Well yes it would probably be best to keep the run unwatched as it will be much more fun to watch the complete run, after all part of why i loved heros run so much was that there where so many surprises in it.

Solved the problem... i overlooked just that function 5 times  laugh new

Ceres escape 48:70 grin new
hero of the day
2007-06-29 01:14:35 pm
nice escape time Cpadolf, keep up the excellent work.

Saturn:
Do you suggest that he pick up the high jump boots before the speed booster, or after? Getting the highjump early seems kinda slow because you have to fall all the way down the shaft and then make your way back up. Where if you collect it after the speed booster, it is literally right on the way.

Also, do you know the fastest way of killing the elite pirates in ridley's lair? Does the speed echo attack save time or did you just use it in your RBO due to weapon constraints?
moozooh
2007-06-29 01:22:09 pm
Quote from hero of the day:
Getting the highjump early seems kinda slow because you have to fall all the way down the shaft and then make your way back up. Where if you collect it after the speed booster, it is literally right on the way.

Absolutely right, early High Jump is much slower, because it's very much out of the way, and some rooms (rising lava room and pre-Wave beam gap to name a few) are actually faster without it. Saturn and I discussed that about half a year ago, there were no other opinion on it since then.
hero of the day
2007-06-29 01:42:14 pm
Thanks moozooh.

Another thing to consider is whether or not to collect the energy tank in kraid's lair, or to simply refill your energy on the way to lower norfair at the energy refill station.