Best Times

2007-06-12 01:32:13 pm

coral to complement blue

*Waits patiently for Tonski to come back with a recorded PAL :29 SS*

2007-06-13 06:21:25 am

Haha screw this. I can't even get 31 at the gunship, this controller really has some attitude problems. I can't go left nicely. Oh well, time for finally search that good and new controller, I got like 20€ to spend on it, hopefully I can find a good one. The last one I bought was (as I told) too freakin' technical, it didn't feel like SNES. I don't know what the designers were thinking. ](*,)

With a excellent controller, I think I could break all my recent records. Phantoon 2 round (which I have used though), Draygon 2 round and many stuff I haven't brought to my speedruns so far plus improved overall speed = all my times sub 40. :P

I'd have tons of motivation in on the moment, just to wait for that new controller. Time to learn that CURSER Torizo skip. :) From now on I'll keep my mind focused on pwning my own personal records, not the records other people make. I can't always be the best. M2K2 finally thought me that at life.

072:
Patiently just wait until I come back telling you that I hate the Torizo skip and can't do it consistanly or at all. laugh new

Haha screw this. I can't even get 31 at the gunship, this controller really has some attitude problems. I can't go left nicely. Oh well, time for finally search that good and new controller, I got like 20€ to spend on it, hopefully I can find a good one. The last one I bought was (as I told) too freakin' technical, it didn't feel like SNES. I don't know what the designers were thinking. ](*,)

With a excellent controller, I think I could break all my recent records. Phantoon 2 round (which I have used though), Draygon 2 round and many stuff I haven't brought to my speedruns so far plus improved overall speed = all my times sub 40. :P

I'd have tons of motivation in on the moment, just to wait for that new controller. Time to learn that CURSER Torizo skip. :) From now on I'll keep my mind focused on pwning my own personal records, not the records other people make. I can't always be the best. M2K2 finally thought me that at life.

072:
Patiently just wait until I come back telling you that I hate the Torizo skip and can't do it consistanly or at all.  :laugh:

072

2007-06-13 01:34:45 pm

coral to complement blue

I got my controller on Amazon.com, for like 5 bucks.

Max

2007-06-14 03:12:27 am

Waaaaaaa i want insanity

Quote from Cpadolf:

What saves did you use? I guess Redbrinstar, pre-botwoon, LN elevator, gunship. Am i right?

Also you should then have had something like Redbrinstar: 11 Pre-botwoon: 17 LN elevator: 22 Gunship: 27 or something...Am i right Question

I saved at the first save point in Tourian.

Anyway I have just done a SS run AND GUESS WHAT

I GOT :40 LOL

Yeah i'm not that good at single segment runs but I am going to try and record a segmented run.

Tonski

2007-06-14 05:43:56 am

Hey, maybe that'll leave me some room for SS record, eh? :P

MASTER-88

2007-06-14 07:02:40 am

Speedrunner

40 SS on PAL is seriously crazy time too. But well yeah i really want see that your 35 min segmented. IT IS SO CRAZY WORK!!! sounds even impossible.

I think it looks at least 31 min run on NTSC versio, even 30 min grin new

go go go

Cpadolf

2007-06-14 07:50:17 am

Almost happy

Well after my testruns i calculated the difference to about 3:30 so this should be ~ like a 32 min segmented run on NTSC, and since 2-3 saves takes at least 30 seconds this would have to be faster then hotarubi to get 35 (at least i think so...)

EDIT: I've had a whole day of having nothing to do, so i did a SemiTAS. I call it SemiTAS because I do use Savestates, slowdowns and turbo buttons. But i don't use fancy things like frameadvance and i don't aim for frame perfection.

Notes:

- End time 00:29
- Rerecords ~6500
- Frame count ~177700
- Emulator: Snes9x 1.43 improovement9
- Noteable change in skill as the run proceeds (I get lot better in
the end I think)
- Don't use things that require total perfection and saves < 0.1 second
- I use the old route (Smokey, hotarubi)
- The run overall contain many screwups that are noticeable even playing in full speed. All of these is in the run cus i accidentally savestated after they were made.
- Maximum slowdown used was down to 24%.
- Don't use Torizo skip
- Don't use Phantoon 1 Round
- Screwed up in Maridia changing beams for no reason, was going to do the wave pb shield on draygon but changed my mind.
- Screwed up in the beginning of the last segment, movie records ~5 seconds without me moving.
- I shot 1 metroid with original missiles to make him drop more supers. ( Seriously tried 50+ times with a super and he refused)
- I Didn't use murderbeam, It's no fun.
- I am now working on a new run with frameadvance to help me reach 27. I will also use more advance tricks such as super short charge, Phantoon 1round, (if i get it right...) Saturns Dragoyn 2 round (The one with pb shield was invented by Saturn right?) and Big metroid skip. Im currently up till WS and have saved ~1200 frames (I think) But all the big timesavers comes from after this point.

How much Ingame time does hero of the days route save compared to the one hotarubi uses?

Well after my testruns i calculated the difference to about 3:30 so this should be ~ like a 32 min segmented run on NTSC, and since 2-3 saves takes at least 30 seconds this would have to be faster then hotarubi to get 35 (at least i think so...)

EDIT: I've had a whole day of having nothing to do, so i did a SemiTAS. I call it SemiTAS because I do use Savestates, slowdowns and turbo buttons. But i don't use fancy things like frameadvance and i don't aim for frame perfection.

Notes:

- End time 00:29
- Rerecords ~6500
- Frame count ~177700
- Emulator: Snes9x 1.43 improovement9
- Noteable change in skill as the run proceeds (I get lot better in 
the end I think)
- Don't use things that require total perfection and saves < 0.1 second
- I use the old route (Smokey, hotarubi)
- The run overall contain many screwups that are noticeable even playing in full speed. All of these is in the run cus i accidentally savestated after they were made. 
- Maximum slowdown used was down to 24%.
- Don't use Torizo skip
- Don't use Phantoon 1 Round
- Screwed up in Maridia changing beams for no reason, was going to do the wave pb shield on draygon but changed my mind.
- Screwed up in the beginning of the last segment, movie records ~5 seconds without me moving.
- I shot 1 metroid with original missiles to make him drop more supers. ( Seriously tried 50+ times with a super and he refused)
- I Didn't use murderbeam, It's no fun.
- I am now working on a new run with frameadvance to help me reach 27. I will also use more advance tricks such as super short charge, Phantoon 1round, (if i get it right...) Saturns Dragoyn 2 round (The one with pb shield was invented by Saturn right?) and Big metroid skip. Im currently up till WS and have saved ~1200 frames (I think) But all the big timesavers comes from after this point.

How much Ingame time does hero of the days route save compared to the one hotarubi uses?

attachment:

SemiTAS Cpadolf - 00.29.rar

hero of the day

2007-06-23 04:55:49 pm

Nice run, Cpadolf.

The route I developed for my TAS was intended to aim for lowest real time. This means I purposely avoided excess items and door transitions even if they saved time on the in-game clock. Due to these differences, it is impossible to directly compare my route to Teri's route. My final clock time was 25, but my new TAS (in development right now) will achieve a time of 24 minutes. If a new TAS was to be made that aimed solely for in-game time, it would be a very high 23 or a low 24.

According to Saturn, it is best to do wrecked ship first even when aiming for in-game time. I am not sure if I agree with him, because there will be a big backtrack to maridia after collecting the speed booster anyway. Having the highjump/wavebeam/speedbooster saves a decent chunk of time for the wrecked ship area.

In my opinion the best route for in-game time is the one used by Teri/hotarubi. Kraid>Speedbooster>phantoon>draygon>ridley. The only things I think you need to fix in your semi-tas is to skip the spazer beam and the maridia super missile tank. Both these items are useless since you collect the plasma beam.

Nice run, Cpadolf.

The route I developed for my TAS was intended to aim for lowest real time. This means I purposely avoided excess items and door transitions even if they saved time on the in-game clock. Due to these differences, it is impossible to directly compare my route to Teri's route. My final clock time was 25, but my new TAS (in development right now) will achieve a time of 24 minutes. If a new TAS was to be made that aimed solely for in-game time, it would be a very high 23 or a low 24.

According to Saturn, it is best to do wrecked ship first even when aiming for in-game time. I am not sure if I agree with him, because there will be a big backtrack to maridia after collecting the speed booster anyway. Having the highjump/wavebeam/speedbooster saves a decent chunk of time for the wrecked ship area.

In my opinion the best route for in-game time is the one used by Teri/hotarubi. Kraid>Speedbooster>phantoon>draygon>ridley. The only things I think you need to fix in your semi-tas is to skip the spazer beam and the maridia super missile tank. Both these items are useless since you collect the plasma beam.

Cpadolf

2007-06-23 06:34:04 pm

Almost happy

Thanks hero of the day, and let me say that i was more then a little impressed by your SM TAS :P

Well then i didn't loose much time (if any) by once again taking the old route.

Ok then i will skip the maridia Smissile tank, unfortunately i have already taken Spazer... bummer. Im trying to improve the run overall by as much as i can now that im going a little more hardcore with frameadvance and way more rerecords, still im not using things as memory watcher and subpixel optimization(now thats crazy)
Although at best this will probably end up a low 28 im still hoping for 27 even though i failed at phantoon 1 round :|

BTW, hows your TAS progressing so far?

hero of the day

2007-06-23 07:40:38 pm

Thanks, I am happy you enjoyed the run :P

With all those improvements you have planned, you could easily reach 27 minutes, maybe even 26. Considering how quickly you produced the first run, the quality was surprisingly good. Using frame advance, I am sure you can make a really awesome run. Things such as sub-pixel optimization will only save a frame or two per room, so it isn't really something you have to worry about.

As for my run, I am in the old tourian escape shaft on my way to the bomb torizo. Progress is slow because I am optimizing sub-pixels and working hard to test as much stuff as possible before moving on. I don't know when it will be done, but the end result should be pretty nice.

Saturn

2007-06-24 06:17:49 am

Really nice run Cpadolf.
For not using Frame Advance, and being your first TAS ever, it looks very good! It's clearly visible that the quality of the run increases with each segment. By using the last lacking tricks and skipping the items hero suggested, I'm sure you can get 0:27 with a little more optimization.

Also I see there are some questions, so here are the facts:

Quote from Cpadolf:

Saturns Dragoyn 2 round (The one with pb shield was invented by Saturn right?)

My major invention at Draygon was the max damage shinespark technique, which allowed easy 2-round kill with almost no ammo requirement. The PB-Wave Combo was invented by JXQ and myself independently (and probably by some more people back then).

Quote from hero of the day:

In my opinion the best route for in-game time is the one used by Teri/hotarubi. Kraid>Speedbooster>phantoon>draygon>ridley.

Wrong. I did a thoroughly comparison of both routes, and in the end early WS is at least 5 sec faster in in-game time.
With good optimization you won't lose that much time in WS, even without Speed Booster and High-Jump to make it slower. And you will save much time later by delaying Kraid to kill him with Plasma and pass his area with Speed Booster and Space Jump. Not to mention that early PBs will speed up Norfair as well.

Btw hero, how many frames did you manage to save so far in your current run at the return during the Tourian escape shaft?
Looking forward for some news about your run. :)

Really nice run Cpadolf.
For not using Frame Advance, and being your first TAS ever, it looks very good! It's clearly visible that the quality of the run increases with each segment. By using the last lacking tricks and skipping the items hero suggested, I'm sure you can get 0:27 with a little more optimization.

Also I see there are some questions, so here are the facts:

[quote="Cpadolf"]Saturns Dragoyn 2 round (The one with pb shield was invented by Saturn right?)[/quote]
My major invention at Draygon was the max damage shinespark technique, which allowed easy 2-round kill with almost no ammo requirement. The PB-Wave Combo was invented by JXQ and myself independently (and probably by some more people back then).

[quote="hero of the day"]In my opinion the best route for in-game time is the one used by Teri/hotarubi. Kraid>Speedbooster>phantoon>draygon>ridley.[/quote]
Wrong. I did a thoroughly comparison of both routes, and in the end early WS is at least 5 sec faster in in-game time.
With good optimization you won't lose that much time in WS, even without Speed Booster and High-Jump to make it slower. And you will save much time later by delaying Kraid to kill him with Plasma and pass his area with Speed Booster and Space Jump. Not to mention that early PBs will speed up Norfair as well.

Btw hero, how many frames did you manage to save so far in your current run at the return during the Tourian escape shaft?
Looking forward for some news about your run. :)

Cpadolf

2007-06-24 07:37:29 am

Almost happy

My best guess would be that hero has ~the same frame count as JXQ had here, maybe a couple less frames overall :P

If I have counted correctly I have now saved ~3000 frames of realtime up till gravity grin new

Anyway I will use the pb strateg on Draygon since i will probably have ~0 Smissiles by the time i reach him.

I have three questions:

How much time does bluesuit save if i pick up the item drops from draygon?

Is it faster to hit Ridley with a pb shield in the begining of the fight then to just start hitting him with all my supers?

Does murderbeam really save ingame time even if you can hit MB as fast as possible? I mean JXQ did not use it. (Although he maybe went for entertainment since he knew 36 was impossible...)

hero of the day

2007-06-24 12:41:13 pm

Saturn:

I am still 9 frames ahead of moozooh, 34(?) frames ahead of JXQ.

Cpadolf:

very nice, you are almost a full minute ahead of your previous run.

You wont need any super missiles for draygon if you follow this new strategy I have developed. I didn't want to show this until I finished my run, but I think you may find it useful. It is possible to kill draygon in 2 rounds using just a single PB combo and 2 shinesparks. Check it out here:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1546448858/draygon.smv

You will want the blue suit. Picking up his item drops probably is not necessary, but even if you do you should save the blue suit until you reach the large room above draygon's lair.

Use the charged plasma/ice/wave on ridley for your first shot. Stand as close to the right hand side of the room when you fire it. This way the weapon has more time to cool down and you can start using your super missiles faster. Since you have plasma you should never use the PB combo on ridley, it is slower. Just use up your super missiles and then start using charged plasma shots on him.

I don't know much about the murder beam, but I am fully against using it. Mainly because it ruins one of the nicest cinematic scenes in video game history. I heard it does save time on the in-game clock though, if you do it correctly.

Saturn:

I am still 9 frames ahead of moozooh, 34(?) frames ahead of JXQ.

Cpadolf:

very nice, you are almost a full minute ahead of your previous run.

You wont need any super missiles for draygon if you follow this new strategy I have developed. I didn't want to show this until I finished my run, but I think you may find it useful. It is possible to kill draygon in 2 rounds using just a single PB combo and 2 shinesparks. Check it out here:
[url]http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1546448858/draygon.smv[/url]

You will want the blue suit. Picking up his item drops probably is not necessary, but even if you do you should save the blue suit until you reach the large room above draygon's lair.

Use the charged plasma/ice/wave on ridley for your first shot. Stand as close to the right hand side of the room when you fire it. This way the weapon has more time to cool down and you can start using your super missiles faster. Since you have plasma you should never use the PB combo on ridley, it is slower. Just use up your super missiles and then start using charged plasma shots on him.

I don't know much about the murder beam, but I am fully against using it. Mainly because it ruins one of the nicest cinematic scenes in video game history. I heard it does save time on the in-game clock though, if you do it correctly.

072

2007-06-24 12:55:54 pm

coral to complement blue

Are you sure about the PB combo on Ridley? That's an instant 4 supers worth of damage, and if it hits him just as he appears, I don't see it wasting any time at all.

hero of the day

2007-06-24 01:03:06 pm

It is only 2 supers worth of damage. Supers do 600 damage to ridley and phantoon, not just the normal 300. It takes 120 frames to charge a PB combo (which can do 1,200 damage) and only 60 frames to charge plasma (which does 900 damage). Within that 120 frames you could have fired 2 charged plasma shots, doing 600 more damage than a PB combo.

Tonski

2007-06-24 01:06:19 pm

Quote from hero of the day:

Saturn:

I am still 9 frames ahead of moozooh, 34(?) frames ahead of JXQ.

And how the heck did you cut 9 frames from that moozooh's perfect "until bombs" WIP? That one looked so frame perfect that geez. Wanna release a WIP? aiwebs_017

072

2007-06-24 01:09:46 pm

coral to complement blue

But during the 120 frames it takes to charge the combo, Ridley won't be visible.

I didn't know about supers doing extra damage on Ridley though, but I don't think that changes things.

hero of the day

2007-06-24 01:25:02 pm

That is a very good point. I guess it would be worth testing, but I suspect it to be close to just using charged plasma for the first shot. I just assumed that it was slower because it was an option available to JXQ, and he started his fight with charged plasma.

Interestingly enough this might be a good time saver in my TAS because I will not have the plasma beam.

Tonski:
I saved almost all those frames over moozooh's wip by optimizing the moozooh jump(tm) in the first cavern area. I decided to not make my work public this time around because I want everything to be a surprise. Though if I find any cool time savers in the process I will post them.

Tonski

2007-06-24 01:34:57 pm

Hmmm...

You don't have the plasma, and you can start load that pb shield frame perfect. Just one thing to ask:

Don't tell you've never before thought of this like seriously? Taking this into TAS and so? I know JXQ is top pro godlike TASer but if he doesn't use it it doesn't mean other TASers shouldn't. :) I really much liked Saturn's Ridley fight, those pb shields made it very interesting.

Saturn

2007-06-24 02:28:07 pm

Wow, nice demo hero, very good job you did there!
However there is a problem in it: You don't get Blue Suit after killing Draygon. Do you plan to skip the last shinespark out of Draygons? :-s

I think the reason you didn't got it, is because you crash into the wall at the same time he gets killed, which AFAIK removes the Blue Suit. However it's impossible to do 2400 damage with one shinespark if not crushing into the wall. Because of that I think you still have to use 1 Super (or 2 Missiles) to get the last 150 HP, but therefore avoid the crash to get Blue Suit. Still this trick would save 1 Super that way, which can save some frames on SM-refills later.

No matter if you collect the item drops of Draygon or not, Blue Suit will still save at least 150 frames on the long shinespark out of his area, so it's definitely slower to skip it in any case.

Regarding PB-Wave Combo at Ridley, it's faster than Plasma at beginning, because it does 300 HP more damage, and can be done without any delays while Ridley is appearing. Then just spam him with 28 Supers to finish the fight as fast as possible (only suitable in a 100% run).

Tonski:
The reason JXQ didn't use it was because it would require him to go to the menu and switching Plasma off, but since he aimed for real-time it would be slower because of the long menu screen delay. Because this is the exactly same case in hero's upcomming any% TAS, I doubt it would be worth the use there as well, at least if he doesn't decide to go for in-game time.

Wow, nice demo hero, very good job you did there!
However there is a problem in it: You don't get Blue Suit after killing Draygon. Do you plan to skip the last shinespark out of Draygons? :-s

I think the reason you didn't got it, is because you crash into the wall at the same time he gets killed, which AFAIK removes the Blue Suit. However it's impossible to do 2400 damage with one shinespark if not crushing into the wall. Because of that I think you still have to use 1 Super (or 2 Missiles) to get the last 150 HP, but therefore avoid the crash to get Blue Suit. Still this trick would save 1 Super that way, which can save some frames on SM-refills later.

No matter if you collect the item drops of Draygon or not, Blue Suit will still save at least 150 frames on the long shinespark out of his area, so it's definitely slower to skip it in any case.

Regarding PB-Wave Combo at Ridley, it's faster than Plasma at beginning, because it does 300 HP more damage, and can be done without any delays while Ridley is appearing. Then just spam him with 28 Supers to finish the fight as fast as possible (only suitable in a 100% run).

Tonski:
The reason JXQ didn't use it was because it would require him to go to the menu and switching Plasma off, but since he aimed for real-time it would be slower because of the long menu screen delay. Because this is the exactly same case in hero's upcomming any% TAS, I doubt it would be worth the use there as well, at least if he doesn't decide to go for in-game time.

Cpadolf

2007-06-24 02:34:33 pm

Almost happy

Wow, nice Draygon fight. It looks very hard though so i will probably use the slightly easier one from your old run which should only be ~1 second slower.

Deeply impressive that you are 9 frames ahead of moozooh, didn't see that coming :o .

Hmm, I won't use murder beam unless it makes the difference between 28-27 or 27-26.

hero of the day

2007-06-24 03:19:30 pm

Tonski:
I just said that I would trust JXQ's reason for not using it because I never needed to test it myself. Though like Saturn said, he opted not to use it because his run is real-time oriented. I likewise will not use it unless the time gained is more than the amount of time spent during the pause menu delay. Not only that, but in my run I need as many spare power bombs as possible. I may turn off the spazer/ice beam at the end of the fight and finish ridley off with a pb combo, but then again I am short on power bombs so I will need to do a good bit of testing first.

Saturn:
I am working on a new demo for the Draygon fight. The one I posted was just a quick mock up. The first round should do 2,400+1,200 damage, where in my demo I only did 2,250+1,200. Finding the correct alignment to get 2,400 damage is within a frame or so margin of error. If I get the 3,600 in the first round then shoot him with a charged wave shot in the second round, I will only need to get 2,250 on the 2nd shinespark and this will allow me to keep the blue suit because draygon will be further away from the wall.

Tonski:
I just said that I would trust JXQ's reason for not using it because I never needed to test it myself. Though like Saturn said, he opted not to use it because his run is real-time oriented. I likewise will not use it unless the time gained is more than the amount of time spent during the pause menu delay. Not only that, but in my run I need as many spare power bombs as possible. I may turn off the spazer/ice beam at the end of the fight and finish ridley off with a pb combo, but then again I am short on power bombs so I will need to do a good bit of testing first.

Saturn:
I am working on a new demo for the Draygon fight. The one I posted was just a quick mock up. The first round should do 2,400+1,200 damage, where in my demo I only did 2,250+1,200. Finding the correct alignment to get 2,400 damage is within a frame or so margin of error. If I get the 3,600 in the first round then shoot him with a charged wave shot in the second round, I will only need to get 2,250 on the 2nd shinespark and this will allow me to keep the blue suit because draygon will be further away from the wall.

Tonski

2007-06-24 03:23:37 pm

Saturn:
Damn I never even thought of that! Having to go twice into the pause menu that is. Kinda obvious, but I never even thought of that. I guess it makes it slower when aiming for real-time.

Cpadolf

2007-06-24 04:16:46 pm

Almost happy

Heh, im at maridia now. I have been studying heros old draygon fight to know at which frames i should begin to run and were to begin to charge, im way to lazy to try that out without any knowledge to begin with. Now i think i will get it right without to much trouble :P

Saturn

2007-06-24 04:44:25 pm

Quote from hero of the day:

I am working on a new demo for the Draygon fight. The one I posted was just a quick mock up. The first round should do 2,400+1,200 damage, where in my demo I only did 2,250+1,200. Finding the correct alignment to get 2,400 damage is within a frame or so margin of error. If I get the 3,600 in the first round then shoot him with a charged wave shot in the second round, I will only need to get 2,250 on the 2nd shinespark and this will allow me to keep the blue suit because draygon will be further away from the wall.

Yeah, I checked the HP values during your fight demo. The way you described it is the only option that would allow to skip the last Super. Good luck on that.

Cpadolf:
Standard Murder Beam on MB from the very beginning saves ~5 sec in-game time compared to flawless Plasma shots. Using it on the 3rd phase only (hotarubi style) would save even 10 sec. If this seconds would decide whether you get a lower completion time in the end, I would use it, regardless that it looks crappy. If it wouldn't change the final completion time, I would skip it, no matter if the in-game time would be higher, since you won't notice it anyway, but get lower real-time and much better fight to watch.

[quote="hero of the day"]I am working on a new demo for the Draygon fight. The one I posted was just a quick mock up. The first round should do 2,400+1,200 damage, where in my demo I only did 2,250+1,200. Finding the correct alignment to get 2,400 damage is within a frame or so margin of error. If I get the 3,600 in the first round then shoot him with a charged wave shot in the second round, I will only need to get 2,250 on the 2nd shinespark and this will allow me to keep the blue suit because draygon will be further away from the wall.[/quote]
Yeah, I checked the HP values during your fight demo. The way you described it is the only option that would allow to skip the last Super. Good luck on that.

Cpadolf:
Standard Murder Beam on MB from the very beginning saves ~5 sec  in-game time compared to flawless Plasma shots. Using it on the 3rd phase only (hotarubi style) would save even 10 sec. If this seconds would decide whether you get a lower completion time in the end, I would use it, regardless that it looks crappy. If it wouldn't change the final completion time, I would skip it, no matter if the in-game time would be higher, since you won't notice it anyway, but get lower real-time and much better fight to watch.