Best Times

2007-05-18 01:10:26 pm

Almost happy

Quote:

I'm not sure if you'd want to use it in SS, but apparently, it is possible to skip Torizo on PAL (I just tested it in realtime, and it worked), which would easily save about 25 seconds. I think it's worth a try.

But how quick armpumping would that require?

Quote:

I take it using Smokey's method (the top one on this page) doesn't suit you? Don't forget, it's easier to do with a charged Spazer as opposed to uncharged.

The question is how possible that is to do in the PAL version.

Quote:

Make sure to check out Hotarubi's test run for the 100% SS... Maybe it will give you some insights. It's also more up-to-date trick-wise.

Weres the smv for that one? Very interested. Also does anyone know if someone is working on another Any% run? Phantoon 2 round plus better optimisation would certanly make 31 possible if not 30.

Lastly Moozooh, hows your 14% run proceeding?

moozooh

2007-05-18 01:28:14 pm

Quote from Cpadolf:

But how quick armpumping would that require?

4-5 pumps, once per about 5-8 frames each. I made it with 4 pumps. However, the hardest part of it was touching the bombs the right way: see for yourself. I managed to get in there at the last frame possible but the overall margin of error should be equal to about 5-6 frames. The basic algorithm is to:
1) get the bombs during the last phase of the turnaround animation;
2) do a few pumps and jump as late as possible;
3) turn around when almost touching the door.

Quote from Cpadolf:

Weres the smv for that one? Very interested.

I don't want to search for the original link, so get it from here. He got completion time of 00:47 on it, meaning he will be able to execute a pretty clean 00:50 on the console without a doubt.

Quote from Cpadolf:

Lastly Moozooh, hows your 14% run proceeding?

Just skipped Torizo. :)
I'm pretty busy with the institute (it's my final year, so the amount of work I need to do/have done this month doesn't leave much time for TASing), but I'll continue soon. I want to finish at least the test run before August. The progress on the final version will be faster, since I won't need to test remotely as much in regards to tricks and optimizations.

[quote="Cpadolf"]But how quick armpumping would that require?[/quote]
4-5 pumps, once per about 5-8 frames each. I made it with 4 pumps. However, the hardest part of it was touching the bombs the right way: [url=http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5597/realtime%20torizo%20skip%20on%20pal%20test.smv]see for yourself[/url]. I managed to get in there at the last frame possible but the overall margin of error should be equal to about 5-6 frames. The basic algorithm is to:
1) get the bombs during the last phase of the turnaround animation;
2) do a few pumps and jump as late as possible;
3) turn around when almost touching the door.

[quote="Cpadolf"]Weres the smv for that one? Very interested.[/quote]
I don't want to search for the original link, so get it [url=http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5598/Super%20Metroid%20100%25run%20by%20hotarubi.smv]from here[/url]. He got completion time of 00:47 on it, meaning he will be able to execute a pretty clean 00:50 on the console without a doubt.

[quote="Cpadolf"]Lastly Moozooh, hows your 14% run proceeding?[/quote]
Just skipped Torizo. :)
I'm pretty busy with the institute (it's my final year, so the amount of work I need to do/have done this month doesn't leave much time for TASing), but I'll continue soon. I want to finish at least the test run before August. The progress on the final version will be faster, since I won't need to test remotely as much in regards to tricks and optimizations.

Saturn

2007-05-18 01:56:30 pm

Quote from Tonski:

> Norfair gate hater

I forgot to mention before, but it seems that the gates there close also faster than on NTSC.

In my 0:48 PAL testrun, I think I did a mockball at a pretty good speed with the help of both enemies frozen to increase the distance for more momentum, that would definitely be enough to pass the first gate on NTSC, but it didn't work on PAL as you can see.

I have doubts it's possible at all, and if, then most likely only with a close to the limit optimized momentum gain.

I would recommend to test that trick more precisely, and maybe use tools if required, to optimize and find out if it's possible at all.

Cpadolf

2007-05-18 02:20:48 pm

Almost happy

It is possible, on console i do it 80% of the time. But I think that you need more momentum beacuse if you jump a little to early you get stuck. Still on console with a decent controller it's not that hard.

072

2007-05-18 02:47:52 pm

coral to complement blue

Saturn, were you morphed completely before the door transition? Otherwise, it won't work. Even on NTSC.

Quote from Moozooh:

Just don't forget that going for a damage boost is not always faster that simply running.

I have a question - do you think that a damage boost from a skree right after coming out of the bomb area via the mid-air morph shortcut would save time? I always do that on my run, but nobody else does.

moozooh

2007-05-18 03:01:52 pm

Quote from 072:

I have a question - do you think that a damage boost from a skree right after coming out of the bomb area via the mid-air morph shortcut would save time? I always do that on my run, but nobody else does.

You mean, in the main cavern while going to the destructable wall on the left? If so, yes, it's definitely slower, mainly because you lose speed while taking damage, while landing and while not being able to morph at full speed to lay the bomb(s) as fast as possible. Damage boosts aren't faster than running even without arm-pumping, so if you can avoid them, better do.

[EDIT]
I should reword the previous sentence: damage boosts are slightly faster than simple running, but the slowdowns required to set them up and recover afterwards eat up all the speed advantages in most cases. Just like mockballing.

Tonski

2007-05-18 03:25:02 pm

Quote from moozooh:

I'm not sure if you'd want to use it in SS, but apparently, it is possible to skip Torizo on PAL (I just tested it in realtime, and it worked), which would easily save about 25 seconds. I think it's worth a try.
But if you aren't going to do it, at least make sure you leave the room with all 5 missiles without slowdowns.

>Botwoon 1-2 rounds

I wouldn't recommend waiting for a second round...

>Draygon 2-3 rounds

Out of curiosity, are you going to kill him with a spark for a blue suit?

> Many many enemy boosts, I took some more of them from Hotarubi's run and I think they'll be in good use in my next attempt

Just don't forget that going for a damage boost is not always faster that simply running.

> Possible route improvements, although the WR route is pretty optimal for console

Make sure to check out Hotarubi's test run for the 100% SS... Maybe it will give you some insights. It's also more up-to-date trick-wise.

> I'm cutting the WS shinespark into 2, as I'm not even sure is it possible to do the NTSC break-in on PAL

I take it using Smokey's method (the top one on this page) doesn't suit you? Don't forget, it's easier to do with a charged Spazer as opposed to uncharged.

Woah!! You can skip Torizo realtime in PAL? O_O This would so easily save me possibly a whole minute since my Torizo fight always takes 2 "rounds". I have to start testing this, since this would probably be the thing that makes the speedruns totally different between PAL and NTSC. Thank you Moozooh, really.

And if I've done a perfect run until Botwoon and get the pb shield and 5 super missiles the first round, if I get the last super in the very first second of the second round if it looks good and is very fast I will accept it. This isn't an easy trick though, you can't start charging for the pb shield like in NTSC, where you wait for the background melody's lowest note and exactly then start to charge. (I always do it this way in NTSC runs) In PAL you have to get the shot that starts to charge pb shield exactly like half a second before the first note, which kinda makes it a lot more manipulative. Not that I haven't succeeded in Botwoon 1 round in my life, I have done it only once.

Well I thought to get the Blue Suit, but getting the refills Hotarubi style is faster and you have to get them without dash to get energy for the spark and maintain the Blue Suit. Second you can't use dash at all on the way up, so I think with very precise space jumping you don't lose any time. In my opinion you lose the seconds Blue Suit saves while getting the refills slow and not being able to dash. If you prove me totally wrong I will reconsider this.

I know about damage boost might be slower, but Hotarubi used them very good! I think with the same boosts I might save half a minute if all of them done perfectly. :P The u-shaped lava room before LN elevator has a very good example of enemy boost being faster.

I've seen that 47 min SS 100% if we're talking about that? There was 1500+ rerecords used, but it's still a very impressive run. I have no doubt he could go under 50 with the perfect run. He's even using Phantoon 2 round which he didn't use in any%. (...:( ) I anyway didn't get any route improvements in mind from that run.

I think I'll just make it 2 sparks on the way to WS. It's very risky to lose the shine since you might lose it even in the Red Scarlet way. It doesn't slow you down that much to make it into 2 separate sparks. This is, of course, my opinion. :P

Now only 1 thing:
Practice to skip Torizo!!

I mean really think about it: Torizo skipped in realtime! That would be the ultimate difference between PAL and NTSC run. I can't wait to try it. :D

I thought of something for Lance and Saturn:
I challenge you to get sub 45 or 44 on PAL-version and post smv. I wanna know if you can do it, and how easily. :P

[quote="moozooh"]
I'm not sure if you'd want to use it in SS, but apparently, it is possible to skip Torizo on PAL (I just tested it in realtime, and it worked), which would easily save about 25 seconds. I think it's worth a try.
But if you aren't going to do it, at least make sure you leave the room with all 5 missiles without slowdowns.

[i]   >Botwoon 1-2 rounds[/i]

I wouldn't recommend waiting for a second round...

[i]   >Draygon 2-3 rounds[/i]

Out of curiosity, are you going to kill him with a spark for a blue suit?

[i] > Many many enemy boosts, I took some more of them from Hotarubi's run and I think they'll be in good use in my next attempt[/i]

Just don't forget that going for a damage boost is not always faster that simply running.

[i] > Possible route improvements, although the WR route is pretty optimal for console[/i]

Make sure to check out Hotarubi's test run for the 100% SS... Maybe it will give you some insights. It's also more up-to-date trick-wise.

[i] > I'm cutting the WS shinespark into 2, as I'm not even sure is it possible to do the NTSC break-in on PAL[/i]

I take it using Smokey's method (the top one on [url=http://www.metroid2002.com/3/speed_tricks_early_wrecked_ship_break-in.php]this page[/url]) doesn't suit you? Don't forget, it's easier to do with a charged Spazer as opposed to uncharged.[/quote]
Woah!! You can skip Torizo realtime in PAL? O_O This would so easily save me possibly a whole minute since my Torizo fight always takes 2 "rounds". I [b]have[/b] to start testing this, since this would probably be [i]the[/i] thing that makes the speedruns totally different between PAL and NTSC. Thank you Moozooh, really.

And if I've done a perfect run until Botwoon and get the pb shield and 5 super missiles the first round, if I get the last super in the very first second of the second round if it looks good and is very fast I will accept it. This isn't an easy trick though, you can't start charging for the pb shield like in NTSC, where you wait for the background melody's lowest note and exactly then start to charge. (I always do it this way in NTSC runs) In PAL you have to get the shot that starts to charge pb shield exactly like half a second before the first note, which kinda makes it a lot more manipulative. Not that I haven't succeeded in Botwoon 1 round in my life, I have done it only once.

Well I thought to get the Blue Suit, but getting the refills Hotarubi style is faster and you have to get them without dash to get energy for the spark and maintain the Blue Suit. Second you can't use dash at all on the way up, so I think with very precise space jumping you don't lose any time. In my opinion you lose the seconds Blue Suit saves while getting the refills slow and not being able to dash. If you prove me totally wrong I will reconsider this.

I know about damage boost might be slower, but Hotarubi used them very good! I think with the same boosts I might save half a minute if all of them done perfectly. :P The u-shaped lava room before LN elevator has a very good example of enemy boost being faster.

I've seen that 47 min SS 100% if we're talking about that? There was 1500+ rerecords used, but it's still a very impressive run. I have no doubt he could go under 50 with the perfect run. He's even using Phantoon 2 round which he didn't use in any%. (...:( ) I anyway didn't get any route improvements in mind from that run.

I think I'll just make it 2 sparks on the way to WS. It's very risky to lose the shine since you might lose it even in the Red Scarlet way. It doesn't slow you down that much to make it into 2 separate sparks. This is, of course, my opinion. :P

Now only 1 thing:
[i]Practice to skip Torizo!![/i]

I mean really think about it: Torizo skipped in realtime! That would be the ultimate difference between PAL and NTSC run. I can't wait to try it. :D

I thought of something for Lance and Saturn:
I challenge you to get sub 45 or 44 on PAL-version and post smv. I wanna know if you can do it, and how easily. :P

Cpadolf

2007-05-18 03:53:51 pm

Almost happy

I think that the problem is'nt if they can, it's if they want to play PAL Rolling Eyes

I don't know how it is with the rest of you but on my computer the PAL version is sorta lagging and the image is very twitchy. Atleast on snes9x 1.41. Speeding up to 118% makes it smooth though.

1 rounding Botwoon sucks... especially when you have much to loose afterwards if you do it, just such a thing as the refills in the room after can destroy it. I can do it maybe 10% of the time wich made the maridia segment in my new run extremly anoying.

In hotarubis 100% run there was a very good 2 round method wich i did'nt use but now it's to late :( . Unfortunatly it's also partialy luck based, he have to do the spiting pattern right at the 2 round wich atleast on PAL he only does 50-60% of the time. Damn all the random factors.

Saturn

2007-05-18 04:02:28 pm

Quote from 072:

Saturn, were you morphed completely before the door transition? Otherwise, it won't work. Even on NTSC.

Of course I did. But seems like I just didn't got enough momentum for it first. Fact is that you have to get much more of it, in order to pass the gate, compared to NTSC then.

Oh and Tonski,
although I don't intend to play on PAL other than testing it a bit, I'm interested to give another run a try in the next days (not today though), just to see how much time can be saved with a bit more experience in PAL now. Still I doubt I can get a 0:44 - 0:45 time without much more practice on PAL.

Lance Uppercut

2007-05-18 04:10:55 pm

Thank you for the challenge Tonski, but I still remember that nightmare of a gameplay of mine and that is good enough reason for me not to play that version again. So no, I dont want to play it anymore, I will stick to the good old NTSC.

Cpadolf stated some good points that occured to me too, the game seems laggy and the timing is quite off because of that. What is the deal with speeding up the game (to 118%) and it runs smoother with that? :)

Cpadolf

2007-05-18 05:08:28 pm

Almost happy

I have no idea why, but speeding up the game to 118% made everything smooth, also it don't feel like it's speeded up at all. Instead it felt like normal gamespeed with a few differences, the music is (ofcours) to fast and samus seems to be runing like mad, due to the run animation being shorter on PAL speeding up the game makes her wave thoose legs around like crazy without moving very fast.

Saturn

2007-05-18 05:17:46 pm

Well, thats because by speeding the emu-speed up to 118% will make it run in 60 frames/second speed, which is exactly the standard NTSC one. And since emulators are usually made to run games in NTSC mode in first place, it looks smoothest when having that speed.

But since it's a PAL version, everything gets faster because of the 50/60 frames per second difference.

Tonski

2007-05-18 05:23:01 pm

Meh, I tried the Torizo skip on console PAL-version, but couldn't quite do it. I could if I'd try long enough, but this is way too har... Well not way too hard to do in SS run, just mad. I didn't succeed in it even once, I couldn't use the turnaround to trigger door transition earlier although it can be done without it I guess. I once got Samus so far into the door I could barely see anything from her.

I don't think I can use this in my SS run. We'll see what tomorrow brings up. (well basically this day)

072

2007-05-18 05:30:28 pm

coral to complement blue

Thanks for the info, Moozooh.

I just ordered a new controller, so I'm probably going to redo the second segment in hopes of getting a 10 at Red Brinstar. How much time do you lose if you start from the auto-save at the ship instead of the Ceres explosion cutscene? I didn't learn about the in-game time difference until after I got the 11...

Cpadolf

2007-05-19 03:51:36 am

Almost happy

Some of you might not think a picture is good enough, but this is the best proof i could get.

I did'nt put very much efort in the last segment and ended up with 39, i might have gotten 38 if i really tried but this is good enough for me. Now onward to SS :P

attachment:

DSC00205.JPG

Tonski

2007-05-19 04:30:08 am

Nice work CPadolf! You're now officially the first person known to get sub 40 on PAL and proved it if I recall correct. That must have been a very beautiful run, especially the Maridia segment. :P Congrats on the new time.

I in the other hand have some sad news... I tried the Torizo skip on console the whole last night, and it totally fucked up my controller. Just noticed this when I tried a SS run just minute ago. I didn't even bother to continue from Kraid ahead, I didn't succeed even in quick kill and everything before Kraid had already went to hell so... I'm just so sad that my controller had to break just now. :(

Curse you Torizo skip!

Cpadolf

2007-05-19 04:37:12 am

Almost happy

Yes the maridia segment was magical. Every trick i tried worked and i made almost no small misstakes at all. Ofcours it could have been ~ 30 seconds faster with full pre dragoyn spark and dragoyn 2 round.

If only i had a recorder i would take up the challange to beat you to sub 38 but unfotunatly i don't have one :(

Sad to hear that you controller broke... was i your only one?

Tonski

2007-05-19 04:44:38 am

No, I have one even older and shittier one, but that's out of question.

Then there's the controller that got fucked up with Torizo skip.

Then finally my newest controller, some MyIicco shit from China that's so technical I hate playing with it. It makes a lot of noice, the buttons are akward to press, etc. It has no feeling of original Super Nintendo controller, it's just too damn technical.

I guess I have to buy a new one and before that practice with one of the others. :(

Lance Uppercut

2007-05-19 08:43:49 am

Wow, congrats on your achievement Cpadolf. There is no point doubting that since we knew about your progress along the way. This is raising the requirement/standard for PAL runs too, little by little I guess. It is always sad not to have video about the gameplay, but it cant be helped.

Tonski, sorry to hear about your controller. Now, off to hunt a new (well maybe used :) ) one! Maybe some internet auction might offer solution, maybe not....

moozooh

2007-05-19 08:56:44 am

Whoa, how did you break it?

Yesterday I was going to suggest practicing a bit with the emulator to understand the timing better, but now I prolly won't, since I'm worried you will break your keyboard as well. :)

Tonski

2007-05-19 09:24:09 am

But.. but... :(

It was my favorite controller, the great feeling of Super Nintendo Entertainment System was held inside it. I got it from my cousin and now it's broken...

Anyway, you need to get perfect turning when doing the Torizo skip in realtime, that means when the item box in on screen you have to already be facing left. I pushed left and right so hard using a different placement with my hands that left does not work anymore. Well, doesn't work good at least. The d-pad is bad, really bad now.

I'm still kinda impressed how close I got. If I could've taken advantage of the turnaround and trigger the door transition even once I would have succeeded. I once got so close, so deep into the door but still stuck. I tried this for 2 hours, and I doubt I'll fit this into my SS run. Maybe if I do a segmented one in future, but not in SS.

moozooh

2007-05-19 09:33:59 am

Aww, it's such a badass trick. :(

Also, don't forget that you need to turn around while in close proximity to the door, to catch the room transition trigger faster.

Cpadolf

2007-05-19 09:55:27 am

Almost happy

With that do you mean close to the grey door closing around you or just close to the door itself?

moozooh

2007-05-19 10:05:25 am

Approximately at the point when the leftmost side of Samus's sprite touches the metallic surface of the hatch. Since this point, it's safe to turn around. And you must hold right on the d-pad, not just press and release.

Cpadolf

2007-05-19 10:58:56 am

Almost happy

OK thanks, going to try it later then.

EDIT: Ok tried it some and it sems 6 (i think) armpumps is enough to get out WITHOUT the turnaround abuse, this ofcourse requires prefect turnaround before the bombs though. Made a smv of it recorded in realtime.

EDIT: Also 1 armpump sems to be minimum even with turnaround, this was done with slowdown though and may be hard to do in realtime.

EDIT: Make that 5 armpumps minimum.

attachment:

Realtime Torizo skip no turnaround.smv