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Wow, that is a detailed explanation about improvements, thank you very much!

On the other hand, I do not claim to be some professional speedrunner so all those tricks and some things for general speed are not that obvious to me, nor easy to perform. Sometimes I feel like you are talking like I was making a TAS or something  :P
It is quaranteed that a single-segment run is very likely to ruin at least a couple of tricks. Of course none of the runs are perfect. Shaving off all those seconds you pointed out is impossible, but I promise to work on it so I can at least reduce the amount.

Yeah this keyboard playing makes things quite a lot harder. Mockballing is pretty hard, at least flat mockballing or getting the Norfair gate hater right. I never thought of mockballing in more areas but I will try to find those optimal places. Sometimes mockballing just does not seem worth the trouble, especially after speed booster.

My Ceres Station is never good. I hate that part so much. Mostly I just skip it and it shows. Need to play it through more often.

Yeah I hate that morphballing out of the first missile area, I have to work on that. It should not be more different than morphing out of the bomb area. Somehow that seems just irritating to me.

Two rooms before Red Brinstar....I missed that mockball so it took pretty much everything away. Surely I should have at least enemy boosted...

Before Kraid... maybe I should adapt to boosting with those skrees. Fast frontal boosting (especially ceiling) is incredibly hard with keyboard. Other enemy boosts do you mean in the corridor two rooms before Kraid? I dont know it that really helps that lot. The room before Kraid it seems that boosting really makes no big difference, sometimes I boost, sometimes I dont. Kraid fight itself is a problem for me, too. I can quick-kill him only under half of the time. More for me to work on. Now it worked allright though.

Yeah that Norfair gate hater grinds my gears. I should do some research and see which method works absolutely fine every time. Now it is just a gamble every time and sometimes I win, sometimes I lose  :)
I would enter the moving platform room Hotarubi style, but high-speed mid-air morphing is practically impossible without (a good) controller.

I havent been used to the Angle Up using when climbing platform vertically, I will take a look at that one too. Very nice information! Would Angle Down work out as well? It is easier to press in my keyboard combination, as you can see from all the run-wanking I am doing  :D
Although there is always a risk I fall down too early and that would outnumber the gained time immediately...

Those PB damage boosts are irritating as well. Partly it is the keyboard, partly I just dont have the skill to do it 100% of the time, maybe 70% or 80%

Yeah that single shinespark to Wrecked Ship is quite impossible for me. That dual shinespark usually goes well without costing that much time but now I screwed up a couple of times loading the new shinespark. Usually I get it the first time because there is more room to spark from the previous room. Maybe I will lose those seconds doing the dual-shinespark but I will stick to it for now. That one is very hard to perform, to me at least.

Phantoon fight seems to be tha problem for me. I got the illusion of a good strategy because a couple of times I trashed him quickly by manipulating him to open his eye every time in the same spot, but that is not very reliable strat. I will go with the normal strategy from here on. What was the best strategy for that one again? The first one was a charged Ice+Wave (what Hotarubi tried) and then Spazer+Wave a couple of times, then Spazer+Wave and the last one Spazer+Wave+Ice ? Please confirm those to me.  :)

That top-Wrecked Ship shinespark is quite hard too. I have only managed to do it a couple of times so practically every succesful spark I make is extra  :P  I dont know wheter I lost time even if I missed one enemy compared to the other strat, killing all with supers one by one.

Should I mockball in the area before entering the hole in the ground to enter the Pre-gravity room? I do have the speed booster and all...

I am impressed how you can estimate the time saved in every situation.


Also I think it is remarkable that Smokey did not use most of these tricks at all and still managed to get that good a time. I guess even more rushing forward...

Yeah, when I reach 0:39 with this lack of skill, I will finally start practising. Short-charge and mid-air shinesparking might be my first lessons.  :)

Wow thats a big post, luckily you did not analyze the whole thing  grin new
Almost happy
Phantoon 3 round goes like this IIRC

Round1: Wave/ice wave/ice 1missile Wave/ice/spazer

Round2: Wave/spazer Wave/spazer Wave/ice/spazer

Round3: Wave/spazer Wave/spazer Supermissile.

The good thing about this is even if you fail you son't loose time compared to the original kill.

I thing Angle down also works for climbing, the thing is (i think) that samus gets on to the ledge a little earlier then if you somersault and then you can continiu jumping upwards quicker.
No i don't think that mockballing pre-pre-pre gravity room saves you much time.

Overall i think that before you try to learn the hard tricks like single shine to WS and stuff like that you should get your speed up quite a bit. That would save more time than just stuffing in a bunch of hard tricks.
I don't see the problem in enemy boosting, no matter is it done on keyboard or not. I think I succeeded in quite many of those in my v2 attempt. Just work on them, once you get them they'll save a lot of time. ;)

The best strategy for Phantoon you asked? 2 rounding of course:
2 charged wave+spazer and pb shield
2 charged wave+spazer and super missile
Saves at least a minute for sure in comparison for the 3 rounding.

072 and Cpadolf seem to be some kind of superrunners, wasn't 072 getting 11 at Red Brinstar?
Almost happy
Well i don't think it's a good idea going directly for 2 round in a SS run. Is'nt it partialy luck based?

For some reason i have problem with damage boost on keyboard, don't know why. As you said it shouldnt be harder just beacuse it's on keyboard.

IIRC 072 had 11 at red brinstar, but then again his going for 34 or something so he needs it.
If you take your time and learn Phantoon's patterns it's not luck based. I've done it twice in SS run, and I'm planning to use it if I'll ever get that sub 40 SS on tape. :P

Don't get me wrong, many things are much harder just because you have to do them on keyboard, but in my opinion damage boost is not one of them. Flat mockball seems to trouble me.
Thanks for the information about Phantoon, I will implement that one in my future attempts. I will not try that 2-rounding for Phantoon at least right now. Maybe that comes along at some point.

Quote from Cpadolf:
Overall i think that before you try to learn the hard tricks like single shine to WS and stuff like that you should get your speed up quite a bit. That would save more time than just stuffing in a bunch of hard tricks.


Yes, that is why I want to achieve at least 0:39 first, to polish my overall speed. Maybe I should to aim even lower this way, since Smokey-level gameplay achieves 38 without practically any of these fancy tricks (well there is pillar shine and a couple of others but still).
To reach 38 I dont even have to be as good as Smokey when he did his run, since few of these tricks save up a nice chunk of time anyway.

If I trust 072s estimate about the Phantoon fight, I should get 37 almost just by getting that part right  grin new

EDIT: I think I will try to enter WS with one shinespark using the super missile method to open the door. It has quite a small possibility to succeed, but it does not really ruin anything if it goes wrong. I practised that for some time and I think I am getting the hang of it. The shine and the missile launch must be executed almost simultaneously. If you can see the green part of the super missile while the missile pack is collected and the picture stops, it will open the door successfully. Also I have to be right next to the door when doing this. It is kinda cool entrance as well if it succeeds.

EDIT2: wow, now it is too easy to spark too early after launching the missile. Finding the balance will be quite a challenge... well, luckily this is just additional stuff.
Almost happy
Made a new SS NTSC run, ended with same time as Lance 40.
There are still parts that watching make me want to smash things but overall it's smoother and soforth.

I did'nt record from ceres becuse I found no meaning of playing through that area becuse the most differense you get from there is a second + or - and therfore i found it unimportant to record.

Murderbeamed motherbrain cus i was tierd grin new

O and BTW Tonski, gunship-endtime was 8 miutes... withoute quickest MB kill or any real optimisation.
Wow, that was.....interesting.

That ceres is so stupid part of this game. It should be optional  :P

It seems that a proper Phantoon fight, pillar shinespacejump and a couple of other tricks can save some decent amount of time.

How much does the murder beam save time? In Smokeys runs, it was the borderline between 0:36 and 0:37 (segmented) or 0:38 and 0:39 (SS) if I remember correctly. I am not going to use it because it is ugly and "unfair" (for MB at least  :P )

You showed me the advantages and dangers of aiming up or down when jumping up from platform to platform. I can see the difference (and risk) now.

It really is hard to execute some tricks with keyboard. That Norfair kagoballplatform room speedmockball is totally out of question  :)

This is nice, I got many good ideas from your run Cpadolf, thank you.
Almost happy
I have no idea how much time murder beam saves... I did it cus i was tierd and it's much more comfortable then jumping around and shooting laugh new
Just did a crappy test run on PAL version to see the differences in timing compared to NTSC.

[size=18px]Super Metroid (PAL) - unassisted SS any% in 0:48
[/size]
Noticeable things in the run:
- Successfull Gravity Statue shinespark
- LN Pillar room shinespark
- Various shinespark damages on Draygon (although using the standard PB+Super Missile strategy would be faster for me)
- Pretty good Ridley fight.

Version differences I noticed during the run:
- Cleary shorter distance requirement to charge up a shinespark
- Much slower door animations, which make opening doors in time without crashing into them almost impossible if running with max speed towards them (estimated loss in the entire run of it: a half minute)
- Much worse horizontal speed at a Morphball bounce (makes diagonal bomb jumping impossible I guess)
- Faster enemy movements (especially noticeable at the Fishes and Flamers) making it hard to use same routines to handle them like in a NTSC version.
- Much faster Lava rising (which BlueGlass mentioned already)

I would say playing it on same level I would get around 0:44 - 0:45 on the NTSC version.

So yeah, I confirm that PAL is overall somewhat harder to speedrun than NTSC.
Almost happy
Finally an NTSC player willing to accept there being a difference between PAL and NTSC.
Quote from Saturn:
- Faster enemy movements (especially noticeable at the Fishes and Flamers) making it hard to use same routines to handle them like in a NTSC version.

It doesn't necessarily make it harder, though, it just means you don't have such routines developed for them yet.
Quote from Cpadolf:
Finally an NTSC player willing to accept there being a difference between PAL and NTSC.


I think nobody said there is no difference in these versions. The biggest debate was about the whole timing system which is still kinda unsettled. Saturn said nothing about playing the NTSC version similarly to get those times, he talked about playing on same level.

Anyways, congrats on your "test run" Saturn, 0:48 is quite good for a first time play (well I say so even though I got the same time myself just a while ago). Did you bang your head on the ledge while doing the diagonal shinespark in Maridia?  :)

Many other differences too, I think those doors might cost even more time in a run, depending on different situations.
coral to complement blue
By the way Lance, my estimates were on how much time you lost from the "perfect" human run.

So when I said you lost 3 minutes on the Phantoon fight, I meant from a 2-round with his quickest attack patterns.

-About the Angle Down thing - I think that works fine as well. The angle down sprite is as tall as the angle up sprite, right?

-Murder beam saves 20-30 seconds, IIRC.

-You really don't want to use the super missile way of sparking to the WS. I do it like this:

-Get the short charge like normal
-Start charging your beam before you get to the door
-Jump halfway across the room (the closer to the missile, the better, but if you hit it, it will kill your timing.) You can let go of the shoot button in mid-air as long as you are spinning, and you won't release the charged shot. Pressing shoot again will, so do that and press up immediately after. Wait 1/2 a second and press right+jump at the same time. (The charged shot must be off screen, but don't let the sparkles behind it go off screeen.)

Any other questions? :P
I found this from the old topic here. That gives some direction and I think your estimate of 20-30 seconds applies well to me, since I cannot be classified anywhere near "a good console player"  :)

Quote from Saturn:
I thoroughly compared the murder beam duration and it actually saves only 5 sec in-game time compared to optimal Plasma Charges/Hyper shots. A good console player should get away with around 10 sec delay if not using murder beam.


Oh, and I do know about the "easy" and "sure" method to do the WS shinespark, the problem is that I cannot get it to work so well. That takes a lot of practise and it is not the first thing on my list. The super missile method brings something extra and if it succeeds, it will save me a couple of seconds. I am not counting anything on that thing because I know it is very likely to fail. Now I noticed that I am able to release the spark too early as often as too late.

I do appreciate that you overhauled part of my run and pointed out some spots, but that kinda got me the feeling that my run is still pure bullcrap and there is nothing but improvable spots all the way through. Now that others have released some runs too, I dont think I am the only one playing like that. And after all, it is single-segment, so it should be allowed to have some mistakes in it.

Also, I would be more than delighted to see some of your gameplay 072. (the more role models the better I guess  :)  everybody has their unique style as well)
coral to complement blue
I would love to show you, but I can't play on a keyboard very well at all... plus I don't know the first thing about recording on the emulator.

I'll look in to that...
Almost happy
Quote:
I think nobody said there is no difference in these versions. The biggest debate was about the whole timing system which is still kinda unsettled. Saturn said nothing about playing the NTSC version similarly to get those times, he talked about playing on same level.


Well he did say that ho think hat he would get 44-45 playing the same on NTSC. Less and less i think i has something to do with the timing, but seamingly all theese small differences make up to quite some time.
Exactly, I think so too. All the small differences pile up the time and there is very little to do about it. I felt it personally when playing, many parts in the PAL version were very frustrating for a first time player  :)  Up until now I hadnt even played the PAL version at all, I had no idea that they differ so much from each other. Also now I completely understand why NTSC is used for TAS.
Almost happy
Depending on how much time the doors slow you down if you add it up, plus some other differences that you barly notice but wich add up, they could explain why you feel like you have played really well an PAL and end up with 44 or you fell you played quite bad on NTSC and end up with sub 44. Becuse you don't think about thoose small things like the doors slow you down, you only think about the run in whole. And therfore think that you ran better on PAL.
Okay, SDA guys told me I have to get PAL-version 35 SS to get my run accepted. 37 at the most, no higher time. I have 6 months and if you CPadolf were in my position what'd you do? I'm certainly...

...not going to give up! :)
Almost happy
Ok thats a bit rough, 37 or lower is certanly not easy, you would probably need to get every trick right plus great speed.

So first of all i would begin to train ALL major tricks really hard till i could get them right atleast 85-90% of the time, all the really hard ones to like full pre-dragoyn shine, watching Hotarubis run many times would be to great help, simply try to learn EVERY trick he does in his run plus phantoon 2-round and other new tricks. Then when I got all that right, training small areas many times so I would know exactly how every room works and how to do it best. Then i would probably try doing a segmented run first and check so i really can preform almost everything as often as possible. Finally before starting to record runs I would make sure that i could go as low as i seek by doing many SS runs and not begining to record untill I feel confident that 37 or lower would be possible. Then it's just start recording and pray.

All in all it most probably will require months of hard work but if you really want to make it to SDA thats what it takes. But i feel cofident that if you just try hard enough you will most probably succéd.
I second Cpadolf's words. I'm pretty sure that if every major trick (save 2-3 of those that will have to be slower due to version differences) will be performed as good as possible, the rest will come simply from algorithms and their repetition.
Okay, so I'm trying to list everything I'd need:

-Awesome overall speed
-Many speedtricks raising overall speed, like the second last room of green brinstar Hotarubi style and tricks like that
-Incredibly fast boss fights:
  >Just plain fast Torizo, using the strategy to make him jump back
  >Kraid quick kill
  >Phantoon 2 rounds
  >Botwoon 1-2 rounds
  >Draygon 2-3 rounds
  >Near 14 supers before Ridley
-Speedtricks, such as:
> Many many enemy boosts, I took some more of them from Hotarubi's run and I think they'll be in good use in my next attempt
> Norfair gate hater
> Gravity suit shine
> Full (or half) room pre-Draygon shine
> Pillar room shine, I used to do it 100% of the time Hotarubi style with spacejumping, but I've lost that skill and these days hit the pillars ruining it all
> Possible route improvements, although the WR route is pretty optimal for console
> I'm cutting the WS shinespark into 2, as I'm not even sure is it possible to do the NTSC break-in on PAL

Everyone is free to post something I might've forgotten. :P I think with all this done my chances of getting the aim time climbs up a lot.
Almost happy
IIRC the WS full shine is possible on PAL with near frame prefection or something, nothing to do on console though.
  >Just plain fast Torizo, using the strategy to make him jump back

I'm not sure if you'd want to use it in SS, but apparently, it is possible to skip Torizo on PAL (I just tested it in realtime, and it worked), which would easily save about 25 seconds. I think it's worth a try.
But if you aren't going to do it, at least make sure you leave the room with all 5 missiles without slowdowns.

  >Botwoon 1-2 rounds

I wouldn't recommend waiting for a second round...

  >Draygon 2-3 rounds

Out of curiosity, are you going to kill him with a spark for a blue suit?

> Many many enemy boosts, I took some more of them from Hotarubi's run and I think they'll be in good use in my next attempt

Just don't forget that going for a damage boost is not always faster that simply running.

> Possible route improvements, although the WR route is pretty optimal for console

Make sure to check out Hotarubi's test run for the 100% SS... Maybe it will give you some insights. It's also more up-to-date trick-wise.

> I'm cutting the WS shinespark into 2, as I'm not even sure is it possible to do the NTSC break-in on PAL

I take it using Smokey's method (the top one on this page) doesn't suit you? Don't forget, it's easier to do with a charged Spazer as opposed to uncharged.