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Almost happy
Actually I did kraid today, twice... Why twice? Well, only 50% or so of kraid's claws actually drops anythigh, knowing this the first time (or second since I did it once in my v1) I did not rush anything, I only shot the claws that dropped me missiles and since I thought the length of the fight was only determined by the time of the last claws appearance, I made everything quite slow, stylish the fight really looked great. Then when I got the last hit in I checked the numbers from my v1 expecting to see very little difference in time, + - 10-20 frames perhaps. It was 16 seconds slower, then I killed myself.

So I figured out what I did wrong, by not shooting all the claws as fast as I could I prevented them from spawning faster. The second time through I shoot everything on sight and spent more time in doing everything faster and when I after a couple of hours of work was finally done and checked the numbers after the E-tank I was... 5 frames faster, or well actually 15 since I had one missile less the fight got prolonged by 10 frames unavoidable. Anyway after killing myself a second time I realized that there was no point of redoing the fight. The speed of the fight I realized was not only determined by how fast you could make the claws respawn but where the claws that drop missiles spawn from and in what manner they fly through the room, getting all the claws to fly close to the two platforms makes the fight much faster but there is AFAIK no way to manipulate them, at least not in a way that works large scale.

Anyway the fight is roughly 6 seconds faster then Tonski's which in turn should be faster then Kriole's, so that's something at least.

Quote from Lance Uppercut:
I am also surprised how far you have reached already.


Actually I probably could have been much farther ahead without much trouble, but I have no reason to work faster since I'll have to wait for Tonski and Kriole anyway once I reach maridia.
I'm really impressed how deep you analyzed the Kraid fight, Cpadolf. The kill-frequency of the claws (no matter of Kraid's position or where they are) being the key to speed up the fight is something most people would probably not realize that soon. This really reminds me on my own analyse-strategies at bosses. Respect man.

Regarding the 100% run, if you really feel like doing one someday, go for it. I would certainly be interested to see the new suitless Norfair route and whether a 0:36 is possible. Of course there is also risk to try this run, since getting a 0:37 again would be kind of a waste of time due to not managing a serious improvement after all. It's up to you to take the risky challange or not.
Are we sure the Torizo skip is impossible?  It seems much more feasible than it did on regular NTSC, until Moozooh did it.  I say it's doable.
Meri Kurisumasu! ^_^
Quote from Cpadolf:
So I figured out what I did wrong, by not shooting all the claws as fast as I could I prevented them from spawning faster.


O.o

I thought shooting the right claw all the time was faster, since the fake claw can indeed block the spawn of the real claw.
ICheatAtGolf:
I say try it yourself. ;)

CPadolf:
Only 6 secs faster? Not that it's not impressive as it is, I thought you would improve that one by 20-30 secs minimum. I guess my Kraid wasn't that bad after all. Also, nice to see you've made progress so far, I hope I'll see you online on MSN soon.
...to check your kraid fight coughcough...


I haven't made much progress in my TAS; I just picked the charge beam and I think I might continue today. Also, having CPadolf saying I did pick the much slower route by going with charge kinda took my motivation down but it's going to be more on the entertainment side with my run and not extreme optimization like CPadolf's fine WIP showed. :P (not saying his run isn't entertaining though)
Almost happy
Quote from ICheatAtGolf:
Are we sure the Torizo skip is impossible?  It seems much more feasible than it did on regular NTSC, until Moozooh did it.  I say it's doable.


Okay you're never supposed to say never regarding this game but really, I'd be extremely surprised if it works. (without discovering a new glitch) I tested it in a couple of ways, one being that I took damage from a spike first then tried to do it as usual on the NTSC in protection of the invicibiliyt time, that was not even remotely close to work. Then I tried to kinds of damagoboosts, one from the floor (did not get me high enough) and lastly from the roof, this got me to the door but not even close to go through. The thing is that with armpumping you move at least as fast if not faster on land compared to damageboosting, added to this are the facts that your hitbox is bigger after the damageboost compared to in a spinjump, you can not abuse the turnaround animation and it takes some time to actually get up to the spikes to do the damageboost. I'd say it's very unlikely it ever happens.

Quote from Saturn:
Regarding the 100% run, if you really feel like doing one someday, go for it. I would certainly be interested to see the new suitless Norfair route and whether a 0:36 is possible. Of course there is also risk to try this run, since getting a 0:37 again would be kind of a waste of time due to not managing a serious improvement after all. It's up to you to take the risky challange or not.


Yeah but still, it will be a notable improvement non the less which people should understand without a lower timer, besides there is also the goal of Sub 70 minutes which should not be that hard, especially considering the fact that AFIAK the renewed route contains less door transitions then the last. Also if I did that run I'd go for realtime since (with some sacrifices for ingame where it makes little difference in the outcome. Like ceres and changing to wave only before Draygon and botwoon) in a 100% there is not much to be gained on ingametime without using very many pause screens and murderbeam.

Quote from Saturn:
I'm really impressed how deep you analyzed the Kraid fight, Cpadolf. The kill-frequency of the claws (no matter of Kraid's position or where they are) being the key to speed up the fight is something most people would probably not realize that soon. This really reminds me on my own analyse-strategies at bosses. Respect man.


Thank you :P

Quote from Tosnki:
Only 6 secs faster? Not that it's not impressive as it is, I thought you would improve that one by 20-30 secs minimum. I guess my Kraid wasn't that bad after all. Also, nice to see you've made progress so far, I hope I'll see you online on MSN soon.


Yeah as I said the fight is largely based on luck so it's hard to make big improvement since in such a long fight luck has a tendency to plain out to roughly the same every time in the end.

And about the chargebeam, it's probably not much slower. Hell I don't even 100% know it is slower, it's just my guess and with the complete route I have planned it at least seems to be slower. But chargeroute has it advantages I think. And unfortunately You'd have to wait some time for me to get to MSN, I'm going away now for some hours, but I'll see you later.
So I got stuck here, where I'm willing to bet half of you did as well.  I think I know what to do here but I can't do a horiz. bomb jump to cross it.  SO, I tried my own method and well...just watch.



It failed.  If only the damage boost was a bit higher it might have worked.  How do I cross the room?  If it's HBJ, I may have to quit.

I'm playing version 1.3 of Impossible if that means anything.
This was a very fast and entertaining WIP. Even though I saw several small yet noticeable slowdowns (missed mockball at the first missile pack, slowdown at the gauntlet entry, dachora room entry — stuff like that; I can compile a list of them if you want), I should say you're getting better day after day. The quality of this WIP is very respectable.

Regarding the Torizo skip, there could be two ways of doing it: damage boost off the ceiling spikes, and taking damage from any set of spikes and doing it my current way. The first doesn't work because you spend about half the escape time just jumping up to reach the spikes, even if you're jumping from the highest available spot, and the time you have left is simply not enough to reach the door — you'd need ~55-60 frames, not the present 42. The second won't work just because the invulnerability wears off during the skip setup — even if you take damage from the ceiling set of spikes and fall on the statue's head, then do a mid-height jump and take the bombs like I did in my very first version of the NTSC skip, you won't have enough time to run through the set of spikes on the floor.
Almost happy
Quote from moozooh:
I saw several small yet noticeable slowdowns (missed mockball at the first missile pack, slowdown at the gauntlet entry, dachora room entry — stuff like that;


Well about mockballing out of the missile area I tested that one in several ways and found it impossible, prove me wrong if you like, I'd appreciate it. Gauntlet entry I'm not sure what you mean, please explain. And about the dachora room entry, is that the missile door entry in the first GB room? If so yeah it always felt like it was possible to do faster, I ran so close to the door to get the last missile to hit as fast as possible but I guess that made my speed when entering so much slower that maybe I lost time.

Quote from moozooh:
I can compile a list of them if you want


That would be nice, constructive criticism is good.


Quote from FirePhoenix0:
I think I know what to do here but I can't do a horiz. bomb jump to cross it.


Yeah thats a big problem area for many since a diagonal bomb jump is one of the hardest tricks you need to preform in the hack, you can make a CWJ though.

If you really really can't do any of the two and feel like quiting just make a 1 second smv from that room and I'll get past it for you.
Quote from Cpadolf:
Well about mockballing out of the missile area I tested that one in several ways and found it impossible, prove me wrong if you like, I'd appreciate it.

Here you go. It's the fastest I got in the first ~25 minutes of testing, but I'm 100% positive it can be faster.

Quote from Cpadolf:
Gauntlet entry I'm not sure what you mean, please explain.

Here. It's not that I can easily track lost frames, but I can definitely track wrong or missed movements that I know would've helped. :)

Quote from Cpadolf:
That would be nice, constructive criticism is good.

I'll do it a bit later, it requires time to test things I'm uncertain about.
Almost happy
Oh you're just lovely :-)

The Gauntlet entry thing was a bit of a smack the the forehead, that is just the kind of mistake I keep on doing all the time, I actually did pretty much the exact same mistake in my Any% TAS when entering Kraid's lair which makes it all the more painful.
Edit history:
Kriole: 2007-12-28 02:15:50 pm
Meri Kurisumasu! ^_^
Quote from Cpadolf:
The Gauntlet entry thing was a bit of a smack the the forehead


I did that in my test-run. Learn by watching.

Opening the door that is
Almost happy
Yeah I know, what I don't know is why I did not do it... Well the thing i got more annoyed by is the door entry from the room before, it's obviously faster and i have made and got the same mistake pointed out to me before and i still do it.
Meri Kurisumasu! ^_^
Quote from Cpadolf:
Yeah I know, what I don't know is why I did not do it... Well the thing i got more annoyed by is the door entry from the room before, it's obviously faster and i have made and got the same mistake pointed out to me before and i still do it.


Maybe you were blinded by your temporary awesomeness.

I want to ask something; is it faster spamming the peashooter, or are charged shots stronger? Taken that the charged does 60 and the uncharged does 20, but fires 4 times faster, I take spamming it is faster. But maybe I am not concidering something vital in my calculation, so I thought I'd ask someone else.
Edit history:
moozooh: 2007-12-28 03:05:32 pm
Charging beforehand and then spamming the peashooter will be faster then. But what are you going to use this against? Many enemies in SMI were immune to the peashooter last I checked…
Edit history:
Cpadolf: 2007-12-28 03:04:39 pm
Almost happy
Quote from Kriole:
Maybe you were blinded by your temporary awesomeness.


Yeah maybe :P no but really I do surprise myself sometimes over the mistakes I make, in some room I can sit for hours trying different things no matter how ridiculously implausible they are, or just trying to gain one frame from optimizing for a really really long time, but I still miss stuff like this by just running through places since they seem "simple", when will I ever learn...

Anyway, if you have time to charge a shoot before you reach the enemy you should begin with a charged shot, after that just spam with the peashooter.

EDIT: Oh beaten to the punch. Well in any case it can't be SM:I hes talking about, by the time you get charge you have spazer and in some cases also plasma, getting charge before spazer SB.
Quote from Cpadolf:
Quote from FirePhoenix0:
I think I know what to do here but I can't do a horiz. bomb jump to cross it.


Yeah thats a big problem area for many since a diagonal bomb jump is one of the hardest tricks you need to preform in the hack, you can make a CWJ though.

If you really really can't do any of the two and feel like quiting just make a 1 second smv from that room and I'll get past it for you.

Thanks for the offer.  I really can't do it.  I saw you do a DBJ in your TAS in the Torizo room but even though I see how it works, I can't get the timing down.  Maybe with a bit more practice...

Anyway, I attached an smv.  Should I be worried about having to do this room again at some point or having to use DBJ at another point in the game?  If so, I'd better start practicing......
attachment:
Every Bit Counts
here you go.
attachment:
Almost happy
AFAIK that is the only needed DBJ in the game.

Anyway, I had an idea of how to manipulate kraids claws and it worked out great, I saved another 8.5 seconds. There should be even more to gain but it's just such a boring and random fight. Also this version of the fight definitely looks less entertaining then the last two, it's just that you get a little limited in your movement the way i did and I was really really bored with the fight and just wanted it to be over once and for all.
Every Bit Counts
well Kraid sucks.
Regarding Torizo Skip, I haven't looked at the room in the while so I may be off. What if you tried to damage boost into the bombs late enough so you could abuse the invincibility to get to the door quicker? Also great WIP Cpadolf, I enjoyed how different yours was from Kriole's and Tonski's.
I am almost certain that the torizo skip is possible. I have gotten kinda close, and this is with zero optimization.

http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/704862443/TORIZOSKIP.smv
Quote from Cpodalf:
And about the chargebeam, it's probably not much slower.

You told me it is. Not that it matters at all, I should probably figure out my route..

Hero of the day:
Heh, never thought of that kinda way, nice. Still I have my doubts on making it through the door.
Almost happy
Quote from Tonksi:
You told me it is.


I told you what I think, not what I know.
Edit history:
Saturn: 2007-12-29 07:46:58 am
Quote from FirePhoenix0:
So I got stuck here, where I'm willing to bet half of you did as well.  I think I know what to do here but I can't do a horiz. bomb jump to cross it.  SO, I tried my own method and well...just watch.

youtube.com/v/idVsmX1c3B0&rel=1

It failed.  If only the damage boost was a bit higher it might have worked.

I knew somebody will try this lame move sooner or later there. :P
In fact, I first planned to add a spike on the right side of the Missile pod as well (to make it look symmetrical), but that way it would be possible to damage boost Samus over the lake. Therefore I removed it again, since it doesn't have a purpose there anyway. And yeah, I tested it carefully to damage boost from the left spike, and it is (and should be) impossible.

Quote from moozooh:
Quote from Cpadolf:
Well about mockballing out of the missile area I tested that one in several ways and found it impossible, prove me wrong if you like, I'd appreciate it.

Here you go. It's the fastest I got in the first ~25 minutes of testing, but I'm 100% positive it can be faster.

Wow, another moozooh-move. Althought I never tested that I too thought this mockball is impossible to do here without taking damage. Nice one.

And yeah, it's always faster to enter a door with the walljump animation if you have to wait in the next room anyway. Opening the door in the gauntlet is also a good idea. Still, the improvement from this 2 tricks isn't bigger than 5-10 frames I think, so no need to be frustrated here. Just remember it for the next time. :)

Quote from Cpadolf:
Anyway, I had an idea of how to manipulate kraids claws and it worked out great, I saved another 8.5 seconds. There should be even more to gain but it's just such a boring and random fight.

OMG! Shocked
8,5 more sec from your first version? This is a GIGANTIC improvement. Do you know what the key was to get it (as long as you don't want to keep if for yourself)? Something with the fake claw Kriole mentioned? As you know I have no idea about the Kraid fight routines, as it was never required to deal with in the original.

Quote from hero of the day:
I am almost certain that the torizo skip is possible. I have gotten kinda close, and this is with zero optimization.

http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/704862443/TORIZOSKIP.smv

Nice attempt, though I still have high doubts it's possible with that method because of one simple reason:
You have to take the bomb more away from the door than with the spin jump due to not being able to grab it with the walljump animation. This one pixel is already enough to make the escape impossible with the current methods. :(