21% Topic

carnivore

2004-10-03 07:23:43 pm

Quote from justin:

Please. No more Indeo. Crying or Very sad

just right click on the link and save as. then you should be able to watch it, worked for me

smilingjack13

2004-10-03 07:47:23 pm

Quote from LeCoureur103:

I've been eagerly following the progress of the 21% game over the past few weeks and I'm just amazed at some of the new solutions... Great Tree Hall in particular was a jaw-dropper.

My ears are burning. Wink

Yoshi348

2004-10-03 10:01:34 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

*siren sounds*
*dozens of fire-fighting Pikachu put out smilingjack's ears*

That was your dose of me for now.

justin

2004-10-03 10:24:52 pm

Quote from carnivore:

just right click on the link and save as. then you should be able to watch it, worked for me

The decoder hasn't been ported to OS X (and probably never will be) so there is no way for me to watch them.

nate

2004-10-03 11:08:27 pm

*slips circa a piece of paper*

*the piece of paper reads 'faq.metroid2002.com'*

Yoshi348

2004-10-03 11:21:33 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Wait, who the hell is "circa"?

nate

2004-10-03 11:33:26 pm

your mom!

...

aim name of gc04.

Solr_Flare

2004-10-04 07:13:54 am

You guys are all mad...mad I say :D Cripes I never thought it would get this far..

kip

2004-10-04 10:28:43 am

GC, I noticed all these 1 > 2 attempts you've been uploading lately. Just wanted to say you and sparky aren't the only ones trying it if you feel alone. I've been trying every day I get time... but since I suck I can't be counted on to do it.

I'm curious if you guys ever tried putting the second bomb really late, as in after you leave the ground (it only being low enough to hit you). I tried that thinking it might help, but it didn't seem like it. IIRC I had close jumps either way. That's the thing, I don't understand specifically what gets more height/distance, so I'm all excited when I miss by a few pixels or whatever, only to not even get close on the next try.

GameCube04

2004-10-04 12:05:51 pm

Yeah, usually on my closest jumps, I lay the second bomb when I'm off of the platform completely, but the first bomb catches me and I roll back. I also try to lay the third bomb as low as I can and still have it hit me, since that's what seems to get the most height. Here are some links to the videos kip was talking about:

http://www.metroid2002.com/gamecube04/gc04_1_to_2_weird.avi

Probably useless, but interesting... the game automatically morphed me again, and it almosts looks like I was on some sort of invisible ledge, but I fell right away. Something similar to this happened to sparky a few days ago.

http://www.metroid2002.com/gamecube04/gc04_1to2_another_attempt.avi

This attempt was so amazingly close. If you watch this frame by frame in Quicktime or something, you'll notice that the only thing preventing this jump from being successful was the tip of Samus' right boot, the left boot was over the ledge. Watching this vid makes me want to believe this jump is possible.

I was also curious to see how much of a difference SJ made, so I started playing a file with Space Jump and made my way to Geothermal Core... I got the jump from 1>2 on my second try.

http://www.metroid2002.com/gamecube04/gc04_geo_1to2_with_sj.avi

Finally, I apologize that my vids aren't working for some people... I promise that the next time I'm capturing something, I'll start using VirtualDub.

Yeah, usually on my closest jumps, I lay the second bomb when I'm off of the platform completely, but the first bomb catches me and I roll back.  I also try to lay the third bomb as low as I can and still have it hit me, since that's what seems to get the most height.  Here are some links to the videos kip was talking about:

http://www.metroid2002.com/gamecube04/gc04_1_to_2_weird.avi

Probably useless, but interesting... the game automatically morphed me again, and it almosts looks like I was on some sort of invisible ledge, but I fell right away.  Something similar to this happened to sparky a few days ago.

http://www.metroid2002.com/gamecube04/gc04_1to2_another_attempt.avi

This attempt was so amazingly close.  If you watch this frame by frame in Quicktime or something, you'll notice that the only thing preventing this jump from being successful was the tip of Samus' right boot, the left boot was over the ledge.  Watching this vid makes me want to believe this jump is possible.

I was also curious to see how much of a difference SJ made, so I started playing a file with Space Jump and made my way to Geothermal Core... I got the jump from 1>2 on my second try.

http://www.metroid2002.com/gamecube04/gc04_geo_1to2_with_sj.avi

Finally, I apologize that my vids aren't working for some people... I promise that the next time I'm capturing something, I'll start using VirtualDub.

bartendorsparky

2004-10-04 06:00:46 pm

always move fast

http://www.metroid2002.com/bartendorsparky/geo_1_to_2_almost.avi

thats my best attempt so far. I've gotten a few that are extremly similar to that one, so i didnt bother recording them. It would be extremely annoying if its not possible....so yeah.

I aM A mAnO

2004-10-04 06:46:20 pm

GC04: i actually got your vids to work, but i had to download them and play them with Divx player.. as opposed to what i normally do with small files, which is just left click and they play in Windows media player

either way good luck to all you crazy people attempting this room. Seems like enough to lose sanity over. haha.

smilingjack13

2004-10-04 09:41:41 pm

You guys are coming really close to doing 1 to 2. I played Geo Core for a short while tonight and came up with a new idea. After raising the first spinner, you might be able to bomb from lower 1 to upper 1 with a similar jump to the last one in Great Tree Hall. Perhaps, if that jump is not big enough, you could use the extra bomb to do a jump like a semi-laddered HBJ DBJ, in order to get the distance and height.

This alternative strat might not be necessary since one of you will probably make the bomb jump from 1 to 2 soon, but it is something to keep in mind. I might try it some more soon.

BTW, I want to ask... How many of you think it's possible to get the first two spinners up? I'm not too sure. If it proves to be impossible, then the 1 to 2 gap would be useless. :(

Solr_Flare

2004-10-04 10:33:19 pm

Quote from smilingjack13:

You guys are coming really close to doing 1 to 2. I played Geo Core for a short while tonight and came up with a new idea. After raising the first spinner, you might be able to bomb from lower 1 to upper 1 with a similar jump to the last one in Great Tree Hall. Perhaps, if that jump is not big enough, you could use the extra bomb to do a jump like a semi-laddered HBJ DBJ, in order to get the distance and height.

Funny you should mention that :) That and one other jump in the Geo Core was the reason the 3bj initially came to exist. Kip, Sess, myself, and a few others were having a brain storming session many months back when 21% was first being looked at.

After we discovered that your height seems to be impacted without SJ we realized a tbj probably wasn't going to cut it. So after some theorizing as to how ball jump physics actually work, I proposed the "true tbj" which later was called the frenzy, then solr frenzy, then just 3bj and its 4bj variant.

I've been gone for a bit so I don't know if it was ever really tried more than a couple of times with that jump(it was mostly being tried on 3 > 2 when I went on vacation).

The general problem that was found was hitting your head and getting out a bit from the lip. Now, 3bj has become a somewhat standard move since I left so it might be worth another look(thats what I originally envisioned it for anyway lol).

But, also, we didn't have the hbj at the time either which kind of takes the ball theory I had with the 3bj and refines it. Laddering a hbj the whole way looks damn near impossible unless a reliable way to slow mo glitch the game is found to give you more time to place the bombs.

But, it you just laddered out one step just to keep from hitting your head on the way up, I wonder if the HBJ would do it. Becauseif I remember rightly, the 3bj came really really close when we first started playing with it.

And yes, the whole can you actually raise them was a big question too and one reason I think a lot of the work on that was put aside at the time because even if you can, if no way can be found to raise it, its a moot point.

I had some theory as to how life grove boosterless worked that I'll have to dig up. The general idea I had was it wasn't the magic dance that did it, it was orienting your camera and the position of the ball in just the right way in the socket that let you spin it. Its just the "dance" put you in jus that right position for lifegrove.

We made some initial attempts on the theory if I remember rightly but nothing ever came out of it. But if it *is* just a matter of certain camera and ball positions can break a spinner, it might be possible to raise it. I think Kip tried it briefly and found that if you oriented properly you could raise it a bit more, but he never got it all the way up.

[quote="smilingjack13"]You guys are coming really close to doing 1 to 2. I played Geo Core for a short while tonight and came up with a new idea. After raising the first spinner, you might be able to bomb from lower 1 to upper 1 with a similar jump to the last one in Great Tree Hall. Perhaps, if that jump is not big enough, you could use the extra bomb to do a jump like a semi-laddered HBJ DBJ, in order to get the distance and height.
[/quote]

Funny you should mention that :)  That and one other jump in the Geo Core was the reason the 3bj initially came to exist.  Kip, Sess, myself, and a few others were having a brain storming session many months back when 21% was first being looked at.

After we discovered that your height seems to be impacted without SJ we realized a tbj probably wasn't going to cut it.  So after some theorizing as to how ball jump physics actually work, I proposed the "true tbj" which later was called the frenzy, then solr frenzy, then just 3bj and its 4bj variant.

I've been gone for a bit so I don't know if it was ever really tried more than a couple of times with that jump(it was mostly being tried on 3 > 2 when I went on vacation).

The general problem that was found was hitting your head  and getting out a bit from the lip.  Now, 3bj has become a somewhat standard move since I left so it might be worth another look(thats what I originally envisioned it for anyway lol).

But, also, we didn't have the hbj at the time either which kind of takes the ball theory I had with the 3bj and refines it.  Laddering a hbj the whole way looks damn near impossible unless a reliable way to slow mo glitch the game is found to give you more time to place the bombs.

But, it you just laddered out one step just to keep from hitting your head on the way up, I wonder if the HBJ would do it.  Becauseif I remember rightly, the 3bj came really really close when we first started playing with it.

And yes, the whole can you actually raise them was a big question too and one reason I think a lot of the work on that was put aside at the time because even if you can, if no way can be found to raise it, its a moot point.

I had some theory as to how life grove boosterless worked that I'll have to dig up.  The general idea I had was it wasn't the magic dance that did it, it was orienting your camera and the position of the ball in just the right way in the socket that let you spin it.  Its just the "dance" put you in jus that right position for lifegrove.

We made some initial attempts on the theory if I remember rightly but nothing ever came out of it.  But if it *is* just a matter of certain camera and ball positions can break a spinner, it might be possible to raise it.  I think Kip tried it briefly and found that if you oriented properly you could raise it a bit more, but he never got it all the way up.

nate

2004-10-04 11:31:50 pm

Quote from Solr_Flare:

I had some theory as to how life grove boosterless worked that I'll have to dig up. The general idea I had was it wasn't the magic dance that did it, it was orienting your camera and the position of the ball in just the right way in the socket that let you spin it. Its just the "dance" put you in jus that right position for lifegrove.

yeah, i'd agree with that. if you think about how many degrees of motion are available to the ball, it really makes sense how it can be such a sensitive alignment that a lot of footwork needs to be done to set it up. here's hoping entering a spinner with maximum velocity at precisely the right angle will do it.

kip

2004-10-06 09:11:09 am

Nothing to do with geo, but I think I should put this here so that people know it was tried and no one does the same thing thinking it wasn't.

A few days ago there was some talk about whether artifacts have been individually tested at the Artifact Temple, to see if the game doesn't check for one. While it was unlikely, I figured no one tried this before, so I began the tedious task of loading a file and getting all but one artifact, going to the temple, then repeating with every other artifact until I've checked all of them. I finished doing this earlier, and there doesn't seem to be a flaw in the system.

One thing I thought of while doing this was seeing how many artifacts disappear if their room is reloaded, since maybe the game would think you have the one that disappeared if you caused that to happen. Apparently only warrior disappears, and the fact that it does is nothing new. I just thought there might be others (there are other items that disappear, but they're not artifacts).

Reloading the temple without getting truth also doesn't make the totem things activate (which might have had the game consider truth to be returned there even though you never got it).

Nothing to do with geo, but I think I should put this here so that people know it was tried and no one does the same thing thinking it wasn't.

A few days ago there was some talk about whether artifacts have been individually tested at the Artifact Temple, to see if the game doesn't check for one. While it was unlikely, I figured no one tried this before, so I began the tedious task of loading a file and getting all but one artifact, going to the temple, then repeating with every other artifact until I've checked all of them. I finished doing this earlier, and there doesn't seem to be a flaw in the system.

One thing I thought of while doing this was seeing how many artifacts disappear if their room is reloaded, since maybe the game would think you have the one that disappeared if you caused that to happen. Apparently only warrior disappears, and the fact that it does is nothing new. I just thought there might be others (there are other items that disappear, but they're not artifacts).

Reloading the temple without getting truth also doesn't make the totem things activate (which might have had the game consider truth to be returned there even though you never got it).

bushwacker

2004-10-08 09:59:47 pm

I've continued experimenting with the HBJ and I invented a variation that gets even more height!

It's identical to the normal HBJ except for one thing: normally, bombs 5 and 6 are laid on separate goings-up. In my version, they are both laid on the ascent from bomb 3 - then when you come down, bomb 4 blasts you up into bomb 5 which blasts you into bomb 6 which blasts you even higher!

So basically it's basically a mid-air 3BJ 8)

For height reference: on spinner 1 of Geo Core, with the platform raised, a DBJ and a standard HBJ both leave you a couple of vertical feet below the raised platform. This new version of the HBJ sends you so high that you bump the raised platform with great velocity, causing little pixellated sparks to shoot out! Shocked

I tried to apply this to making the gap from spinner 1 to 2 (with 1 raised), but I still hit my head on spinner 1... I'm thinking maybe a ladder of this new thing might make it.

Ekarderif

2004-10-08 10:22:33 pm

Good find by yourself. I've theorized it before and GameCube04 managed to pull it off as he's a lot better than me at this. http://www.metroid2002.com/gamecube04/gc04_hbj_dbj.avi

bushwacker

2004-10-08 11:02:45 pm

^^^ Yep, that's it Embarassed

GameCube04

2004-10-09 01:45:57 am

Honestly, I do not think it is possible to ladder an HBJ or an HBJ/DBJ. In m experience with them, you just don't have enough control over yourself in midair to be able to get good enough distance for it to be effective.

However, the HBJ/DBJ still could be used to get to spinner 2, but with a different method that sparky found.

http://www.metroid2002.com/gamecube04/gc04_geo_core_stuff.avi

Basically there is an invisible ledge up there, and from there you can dash to the second spinner with a single jump (have to hit the mountain so it boosts you up). However, I don't think it's possible to get the height to reach the invisible ledge. As you can see from the video, I came up pretty short, and that was my highest attempt, so I don't know. By the way, if you're wondering how it's possible to get to the rock spire without SJ, you can HBJ/DBJ onto the box (although without SJ it has to be a pretty perfect jump), then simply single jump onto the spire.

Anyway I think I'm going to be taking a break from all this 21% stuff. Geo Core is really starting to frustrate me, and I've got some stuff I need to do in other games (Radix knows what I'm talking about Wink

). Good luck to everybody that continues to work on it.

Honestly, I do not think it is possible to ladder an HBJ or an HBJ/DBJ.  In m experience with them, you just don't have enough control over yourself in midair to be able to get good enough distance for it to be effective.

However, the HBJ/DBJ still could be used to get to spinner 2, but with a different method that sparky found.

http://www.metroid2002.com/gamecube04/gc04_geo_core_stuff.avi

Basically there is an invisible ledge up there, and from there you can dash to the second spinner with a single jump (have to hit the mountain so it boosts you up).  However, I don't think it's possible to get the height to reach the invisible ledge.  As you can see from the video, I came up pretty short, and that was my highest attempt, so I don't know.  By the way, if you're wondering how it's possible to get to the rock spire without SJ, you can HBJ/DBJ onto the box (although without SJ it has to be a pretty perfect jump), then simply single jump onto the spire.

Anyway I think I'm going to be taking a break from all this 21% stuff.  Geo Core is really starting to frustrate me, and I've got some stuff I need to do in other games (Radix knows what I'm talking about  :wink: ).  Good luck to everybody that continues to work on it.

Yoshi348

2004-10-09 01:50:51 am

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Quote from GameCube04:

Geo Core is really starting to frustrate me, and I've got some stuff I need to do in other games (Radix knows what I'm talking about Wink

)

Pikmin 2? :)

GameCube04

2004-10-09 02:01:49 am

Nope, actually it's Super Mario World. I was trying to get a good 96 exit time and about two months ago I had a decent run of 1:45:01. I wasn't satisfied so I still tried to improve it, but shortly after I got sidetracked with MP and haven't really played SMW since. So I'm going to go back to it now because Radix won't stop nagging me about it ;P

If all goes well I should be able to get sub 1:40.

smilingjack13

2004-10-09 11:06:06 am

Good, I want to see you murder SMW. :) I wonder how rusty you'll be with your strats. Heh.

I haven't been trying a whole lot of Geo Core lately either. I'd really like to get a better single segment time in this game and maybe go for another low percent speed run. And I'd kind of like to do this before MP2 comes out, so I should get cracking.

As for Geo Core, I have tried quite a bit to get the first spinner up, but I do not know how. If someone were to solve the first two spinners, then I'd be very motivated to play Geo Core, because 1 to 2 is nearly solved, and there is surely a way to get to the door at the top.

kip

2004-10-09 02:01:02 pm

Quote:

maybe go for another low percent speed run.

Do you think this would be a 23%? I was talking with Radix and apparently 23% will no longer be accepted at SDA, under the logic that 22% has been done by several people now. He said he could still add it to archive.org; either way, I figure you deserve to know this ahead of time if you were considering a 23%.

smilingjack13

2004-10-09 11:22:43 pm

Oh, thanks for warning me, kip. It was going to be 23%, but now I'm not too sure. I wanted to do 23% again since I can do way better than 1:25... Maybe I'll go for a 22% speed run, but I don't think I could ever do the Geo Core segment.

It's a shame that 23% speed runs won't be accepted anymore, because, IMO, it's the lowest percent you can achieve without doing anything really hard.