Why can't Retro be like this?

Cpadolf

2007-06-14 07:46:06 pm

Almost happy

Quote:

OMG EVERONE STOP TEH SEQUENCE BREAK OR WE WILL HABV A WWIII!!!!!

Yea probably, and whe will always know it was SDAs and M2K2s fault... then we will blame Gamefaqs.

072

2007-06-14 07:56:39 pm

coral to complement blue

In a way, it's good that Nintendo tries their best to prevent SBs. Otherwise, it really isn't as satisfying.

Unfortunately, Nintendo will sometimes make it impossible to break things (a la Fusion). And that's a problem.

Andrew Mills

2007-06-15 07:17:30 pm

Strategy Guide Writer

Quote from nate:

it's nintendo.

I'd have to disagree - slightly - and say it's a bit of both. Developers pride along with publishers pride at stake tbh. Granted, Nintendo has the last say, but I know there's a few high up Retro employees that hate us SB'ing just as much as the Big-N do...

UchihaSasuke

2007-06-16 04:11:55 pm

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

i would imagine Nintendo would just fire the Retro employee if he/she told them "SB is fine. don't take it seriously".

Retro are the horse and Nintendo, the master. you know what happens to horses when they rebel...

but Retro's comments don't make them saints either.

it is at least good that the best of OoT SBing wasn't discovered until last year. only the useless glitches were axed from newer versions (well, Bottle Adventure is the only big one that died)

Cpadolf

2007-06-16 05:45:31 pm

Almost happy

Wrong topic i know but since it came up, what the hell is bottle adventure in OoT?

=Prime Killer=

2007-06-18 06:35:42 am

You know that Nintendo is going to swing their anti-SB hammer when they ask us to test-play MP3. laugh new

A Silly Goose

2007-06-18 10:29:08 am

Look, witty text!

If they asked us to play-test MP3, we'd just lie and say we couldn't find anything, and then post all kinds of insane sequence breaks on launch day.

Lazylen

(user is banned)

2007-06-18 11:27:10 am

no, we'd post some minor crap, like samus' arm cannon going through walls at such and such of places, and some boss glitches that couldnt possibly help in speedrunning.

Mr. Aran

2007-06-18 11:42:26 am

everybody knows it's true

and save the speed-running glitch finding until all versions have been released.

Lazylen

(user is banned)

2007-06-18 11:49:04 am

Quote from Mr. Aran:

and save the speed-running glitch finding until all versions have been released.

exactly.

then again, most speed-running glitches aren't found until alot of people get the game...

but they will have taken out anything we may have found in MP2 or MPH.

so we'll have to be looking for new things.

nate

2007-06-18 12:27:28 pm

there is no way they will have time to fix anything we find before all regions' release if the release schedule is the same as prime 2's. dunno if it's already been posted and it is or is not.

Tonski

2007-06-18 01:11:08 pm

So this topic is about Nintendo trying to make MP3 a game that has no sbreaks?

hahaha I'd like to see them succeed.

Andrew Mills

2007-06-18 06:03:50 pm

Strategy Guide Writer

Quote from nate:

there is no way they will have time to fix anything we find before all regions' release if the release schedule is the same as prime 2's. dunno if it's already been posted and it is or is not.

Not that that matters tho, Wii Connect24 FTL :(

Zeke

2007-06-18 06:57:46 pm

Time bomb set get out fast!

This thread has a case of cognitive dissonance. That Bungie quote isn't about sequence breaking, it's about speed running. The latter is something Nintendo has never shown any signs of opposing; quite the contrary, in Metroid's case, they started it with their various rewards for fast completion. As for the former....

Quote from PiccoloCube:

i wonder why Nintendo is so against SBs. did they murder Iwata's dog or something?

I don't see what's not to get about this. Sequence breaking almost always involves finding flaws in the game. If those flaws exist, the game designers have made mistakes in their work. Take secret worlds, for instance -- failing to keep Samus from literally jumping out of rooms is a major problem, especially since the glitch is game-killing if you press the wrong button.

Nintendo and Retro put enormous amounts of work into designing, programming, and testing Metroid Prime. They're supposed to enjoy watching us pull it apart like taffy? I'm guessing more than a few employees caught hell from their bosses when these sequence breaks were found. Imagine how much worse it got when Prime 2 -- where they'd tried so hard to fix the bugs in Prime -- was itself broken nearly as much. If these guys were architects, they would be fending off lawsuits. It has to be pretty galling.

Nintendo has even less reason to like us than Retro does. Why? Because they bent over backwards to please us with Zero Mission, and it just got them more criticism, this time because the SBs were intentional. We burn them at both ends. We're the Pyrrhic demographic. They can't satisfy us except by hurting themselves.

Of course, we don't really have a choice about that. It's the nature of sequence breaking: all the fun is in finding what's not meant to be there. We'd probably be the world's greatest beta testers. But it's staggeringly unfair to rebuke the designers for working against us. That's their job.

This thread has a case of cognitive dissonance.  That Bungie quote isn't about sequence breaking, it's about speed running.  The latter is something Nintendo has never shown any signs of opposing; quite the contrary, in Metroid's case, they [i]started[/i] it with their various rewards for fast completion.  As for the former....

[quote="PiccoloCube"]i wonder why Nintendo is so against SBs. did they murder Iwata's dog or something?[/quote]

I don't see what's not to get about this.  Sequence breaking almost always involves finding flaws in the game.  If those flaws exist, the game designers have made mistakes in their work.  Take secret worlds, for instance -- failing to keep Samus from literally jumping out of rooms is a major problem, especially since the glitch is game-killing if you press the wrong button.

Nintendo and Retro put enormous amounts of work into designing, programming, and testing Metroid Prime.  They're supposed to enjoy watching us pull it apart like taffy?  I'm guessing more than a few employees caught hell from their bosses when these sequence breaks were found.  Imagine how much worse it got when Prime 2 -- where they'd tried so hard to fix the bugs in Prime -- was itself broken nearly as much.  If these guys were architects, they would be fending off lawsuits.  It has to be pretty galling.

Nintendo has even less reason to like us than Retro does.  Why?  Because they bent over backwards to please us with Zero Mission, and it just got them more criticism, this time because the SBs were intentional.  We burn them at both ends.  We're the Pyrrhic demographic.  They can't satisfy us except by hurting themselves.

Of course, we don't really have a choice about that.  It's the nature of sequence breaking: all the fun is in finding what's not meant to be there.  We'd probably be the world's greatest beta testers.  But it's [i]staggeringly[/i] unfair to rebuke the designers for working against us.  That's their job.

Lazylen

(user is banned)

2007-06-18 07:04:10 pm

Quote from Andrew Mills:

Quote from nate:

there is no way they will have time to fix anything we find before all regions' release if the release schedule is the same as prime 2's. dunno if it's already been posted and it is or is not.

Not that that matters tho, Wii Connect24 FTL :(

yeah, this is the only reason im glad my online doesnt work.

and Zeke, all we want from them is to ignore us.

nate

2007-06-18 08:03:19 pm

Quote from Andrew Mills:

Quote from nate:

there is no way they will have time to fix anything we find before all regions' release if the release schedule is the same as prime 2's. dunno if it's already been posted and it is or is not.

Not that that matters tho, Wii Connect24 FTL :(

disconnecting from the internet ftw.
also i've heard from unreliable sources that you can simply delete the updates it downloads.

Yoshi348

2007-06-18 08:19:42 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Anyway I'm not even sure they have the architecture or disk space in place to do that. It doesn't seem like it anyway, from what I'm feeling. And Nintendo isn't exactly terribly competent at this online thing.

Andrew Mills

2007-06-19 02:06:02 pm

Strategy Guide Writer

Quote from Zeke:

*loads of good points*

But the relevance of the quote with Bungie was over the fact that at least Bungie openly acknowledge speedrunning of Halo. The timed endings don't - really - appear in the Prime series.

I can understand Retro's/Nintendos's attitude towards the SB's found in the Prime series, and as we've said before, we can only be pleased by finding the stuff we really weren't supposed to, but there's very little doubt Bungie will reward players who make it off the beaten path with cheeky easter eggs etc. Compare that attitude to Retro (who don't offer anything like that to the hardcore fan), and you can see where I'm coming from...

Yoshi348

2007-06-19 02:58:04 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Personally I find timed endings fucking annoying. It's not so bad in the non-Prime games where the extra ending is just a different picture at the end, but basically I feel that if you're observant and skilled enough you should be able to get the fullest ending the first time through, even if you have to put a lot of effort into it. But with timed endings either the limit is pathetically easy, or there's no way you can do it without knowing the game already.

Which is not to say modes of speed and nifty things coming thereof are not cool. But I definitely feel that the fullest ending is something you should be able to get the first time around.

BTW when talking about Halo it's important to note that a big part of that game is competitive multiplayer as well. Glitches and unintended features can be much more destructive in that environment. Sometimes they do work out okay (*coughwavedashingcough*) but the balance is much more fragile than with single player. Especially when it comes to speedrunning - when you're speedrunning, the game itself no longer has to provide a whole lot of the challenge, as going as fast as possible nearly always requires a lot of skill.

Personally I find timed endings fucking annoying. It's not so bad in the non-Prime games where the extra ending is just a different picture at the end, but basically I feel that if you're observant and skilled enough you should be able to get the fullest ending the first time through, even if you have to put a lot of effort into it. But with timed endings either the limit is pathetically easy, or there's no way you can do it without knowing the game already.

Which is not to say modes of speed and nifty things coming thereof are not cool. But I definitely feel that the fullest ending is something you should be able to get the first time around.

BTW when talking about Halo it's important to note that a big part of that game is competitive multiplayer as well. Glitches and unintended features can be much more destructive in that environment. Sometimes they do work out okay (*coughwavedashingcough*) but the balance is much more fragile than with single player. Especially when it comes to speedrunning - when you're speedrunning, the game itself no longer has to provide a whole lot of the challenge, as going as fast as possible nearly always requires a lot of skill.

13M13

2007-06-19 05:24:58 pm

l'appel du vide

Quote from Yoshi348:

...or there's no way you can do it without knowing the game already.

Ah, yes.. Playing The Game More Than Once™...

...horrific!

arkarian

2007-06-19 10:08:09 pm

red chamber dream

Wavedashing is due to a glitch?

A Silly Goose

2007-06-19 10:08:14 pm

Look, witty text!

At least it's not like Ogre Battle 64, where you spend 72 hours playing the game, only to get the mondo-crappy ending, because of this Chaos Frame thing that is never mentioned in the game or in the instruction manual.

Yoshi348

2007-06-19 10:32:51 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Ark: It's an unintended feature.

leafgreen386

2007-06-21 09:48:16 pm

Quote from Arkarian:

Wavedashing is due to a glitch?

Wavelands, which the technique is rooted in are intentional (as evidenced by the term "waveland special fall" found in the debug menu), but they did not intended you to be able to perform the technique before leaving the ground.

I consider it more of an exploit than a glitch. It's an intended technique, used in an unintended way.

UchihaSasuke

2007-06-24 03:11:17 pm

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

a real SSBM glitch is that one where the opponent gets stuck into Mewtwo when he uses his forward+B move.

about SBs, i wonder why the games can't be like Super Metroid. that game has lots of opportunities for SBing (unless there's game-killing SBs i don't know. sorry but i haven't played that yet, only watched runs)

also, getting items out of order is different than SWs. i want them to let us pick items out of order but i definitely like when they fix SW spots. i would really hate to fall in one when i'm exploring stuff. the problem is that they consider out-of-order items and SWs as the same thing: an error and they strive to fix all errors.

btw, updates for games should be deleteable. i hope they aren't tied to your savefile (i bet they'll do something evil like that and force us to lose our saves if we refuse the update and want to get rid of it)