The problem with TAS, and a solution

2006-05-15 03:20:21 am

target audience is irrelevant. it's the same thing as joe camel. you can argue all day he's not targeted at kids, but kids still see him, and so he had to go.

as for the tas problem not being a reality, i suppose i will need some help from readers of this topic: please post links to any instance of the tas problem (someone mistakes a tas for something it's not), or simply relate your memories of instances if you no longer have a links to them.

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

If all a person is willing to read is one word, they aren't worth reaching out to, because they would either be unable to understand the concepts at hand or they just wouldn't care.

incorrect. they will negatively influence people who can understand the concepts at hand.

edited adding a link to joe camel at wikipedia for people who don't know what that was.

BlueGlass

2006-05-15 03:25:56 am

Nate, I don't believe your claim that Dragonfangs's TAS's sucess shows that the word cheated doesn't matter actually works, because that TAS has only been shown to people who already know about TAS. Had it been released to the internet in general and been well-accepted, then I'd believe you.

SABERinBLUE

2006-05-15 03:26:39 am

Cook of the Sea

Quote:

incorrect. they will negatively influence people who can understand the concepts at hand.

If the influencees are willing to believe what some guy says to them without looking into the issue further for themselves, screw them as well. One word is not enough.

nate

2006-05-15 03:28:09 am

Quote from BlueGlass:

Nate, I don't believe your claim that Dragonfangs's TAS's sucess shows that the word cheated doesn't matter actually works, because that TAS has only been shown to people who already know about TAS. Had it been released to the internet in general and been well-accepted, then I'd believe you.

right. unclear how much exposure the run got outside of m2k2. the doubt i have about the "cheated" label hurting tas is probably the least proven and most conjectural part of my post.

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

Quote:

incorrect. they will negatively influence people who can understand the concepts at hand.

If the influencees are willing to believe what some guy says to them without looking into the issue further for themselves, screw them as well. One word is not enough.

you've just abandoned the majority. you may be able to do that as a passive observer, but i am in a position of power, and i cannot follow you.

SABERinBLUE

2006-05-15 03:30:43 am

Cook of the Sea

Even if it wouldn't "hurt" tas (which I believe it would), that wouldn't make it a good idea. It's nondescriptive and could mean any number of inaccurate things, like implying use of action replay or other actual cheat devices.

13M13

2006-05-15 03:32:09 am

l'appel du vide

Quote from nate:

it's the same thing as joe camel. you can argue all day he's not targeted at kids, but kids still see him, and so he had to go.

No, it's not. Tool-assisted speedrunners != tobacco marketers.

Like I said, TASers do not have to appeal to every individual who happens upon their runs. You want them to accept an audience they may not wish to cater to...namely...everyone.

SABERinBLUE

2006-05-15 03:33:48 am

Cook of the Sea

Quote from nate:

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

If the influencees are willing to believe what some guy says to them without looking into the issue further for themselves, screw them as well. One word is not enough.

you've just abandoned the majority. you may be able to do that as a passive observer, but i am in a position of power, and i cannot follow you.

I don't see how this post answers mine.

nate

2006-05-15 03:40:03 am

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

Even if it wouldn't "hurt" tas (which I believe it would), that wouldn't make it a good idea. It's nondescriptive and could mean any number of inaccurate things, like implying use of action replay or other actual cheat devices.

this is true, but see 2a). an ideal solution is not forthcoming.

Quote from 13M13:

Quote from nate:

it's the same thing as joe camel. you can argue all day he's not targeted at kids, but kids still see him, and so he had to go.

No, it's not. Tool-assisted speedrunners != tobacco marketers.

Like I said, TASers do not have to appeal to every individual who happens upon their runs. You want them to accept an audience they may not wish to cater to...namely...everyone.

appeal to != be comprehensible to. i never said anything about accepting an audience. the tasers, as the content creators, have a responsibility to label what they have created so that people other than themselves can understand what they are looking at. not doing so is dangerous - this is the source the of the tas problem (1c).

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

Quote from nate:

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

If the influencees are willing to believe what some guy says to them without looking into the issue further for themselves, screw them as well. One word is not enough.

you've just abandoned the majority. you may be able to do that as a passive observer, but i am in a position of power, and i cannot follow you.

I don't see how this post answers mine.

"screw them" = abandoning them. you are not responsible for user x, but i am.

[quote="SABERinBLUE"]Even if it wouldn't "hurt" tas (which I believe it would), that wouldn't make it a good idea.  It's nondescriptive and could mean any number of inaccurate things, like implying use of action replay or other actual [i]cheat[/i] devices.[/quote]
this is true, but see 2a). an ideal solution is not forthcoming.

[quote="13M13"][quote="nate"]it's the same thing as joe camel. you can argue all day he's not targeted at kids, but kids still see him, and so he had to go.[/quote]
No, it's not.  Tool-assisted speedrunners != tobacco marketers.

Like I said, TASers do not have to appeal to every individual who happens upon their runs.  You want them to accept an audience they may not wish to cater to...namely...everyone.[/quote]
appeal to != be comprehensible to. i never said anything about accepting an audience. the tasers, as the content creators, have a [b]responsibility[/b] to label what they have created so that people other than themselves can understand what they are looking at. not doing so is dangerous - this is the source the of the tas problem (1c).

[quote="SABERinBLUE"][quote="nate"][quote="SABERinBLUE"]If the influencees are willing to believe what some guy says to them without looking into the issue further for themselves, screw them as well.  One word is not enough.[/quote]
you've just abandoned the majority. you may be able to do that as a passive observer, but i am in a position of power, and i cannot follow you.[/quote]

I don't see how this post answers mine.[/quote]
"screw them" = abandoning them. you are not responsible for user x, but i am.

SABERinBLUE

2006-05-15 03:43:14 am

Cook of the Sea

Quote from nate:

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

Quote from nate:

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

If the influencees are willing to believe what some guy says to them without looking into the issue further for themselves, screw them as well. One word is not enough.

you've just abandoned the majority. you may be able to do that as a passive observer, but i am in a position of power, and i cannot follow you.

I don't see how this post answers mine.

"screw them" = abandoning them. you are not responsible for user x, but i am.

So we here at m2k2sda are concerned with making sure that people that don't read know what's going on.

Right.

BlueGlass

2006-05-15 04:11:24 am

Quote from nate:

as for the tas problem not being a reality, i suppose i will need some help from readers of this topic: please post links to any instance of the tas problem (someone mistakes a tas for something it's not), or simply relate your memories of instances if you no longer have a links to them.

Excluding instances already posted in this topic and all the instances spawned by the SMB3 TAS:
http://gprime.net/board/archive/index.php/t-5416.html
http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/speed-run/even-faster-super-mario-speed-run-video-171282.php
there was an instance on SCU of someone thinking the 27 minute any% SM TAS was real, but I can no longer find the topic
http://s11.invisionfree.com/darksea/index.php?showtopic=59(not sure this one really counts, because both the webmaster and myself immediately clarified the situation, but it could have led to something like the above links)

When I have time, I might look for more.

EDIT: funny how none of the TASers who are members here have posted yet.

[quote="nate"]as for the tas problem not being a reality, i suppose i will need some help from readers of this topic: please post links to any instance of the tas problem (someone mistakes a tas for something it's not), or simply relate your memories of instances if you no longer have a links to them.[/quote]Excluding instances already posted in this topic and all the instances spawned by the SMB3 TAS:
[url]http://gprime.net/board/archive/index.php/t-5416.html[/url]
[url]http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/speed-run/even-faster-super-mario-speed-run-video-171282.php[/url]
there was an instance on SCU of someone thinking the 27 minute any% SM TAS was real, but I can no longer find the topic
[url]http://s11.invisionfree.com/darksea/index.php?showtopic=59[/url](not sure this one really counts, because both the webmaster and myself immediately clarified the situation, but it could have led to something like the above links)

When I have time, I might look for more.

EDIT: funny how none of the TASers who are members here have posted yet.

13M13

2006-05-15 06:47:37 am

l'appel du vide

Quote from Nate:

the tasers, as the content creators, have a responsibility to label what they have created so that people other than themselves can understand what they are looking at.

But...they do that.

The source of the "TAS problem" is stupid people...not TASers...

Qlex

2006-05-15 08:09:51 am

Quote from BlueGlass:

funny how none of the TASers who are members here have posted yet.

I'm a TASer ^^ .

(Sorry for the stupid spam, I just wanted to say that I want things to be calm, and that I don't want people to feel insulted during the debate.)

SABERinBLUE

2006-05-15 09:35:24 am

Cook of the Sea

Quote from 13M13:

The source of the "TAS problem" is stupid people...not TASers...

That's probably the truest thing yet said in this thread.

spineshark

2006-05-15 09:41:46 am

in the name of justice!

Quote from nate:

ARRR TAS SYMPATHIZER *bans*

but seriously, if it's not obvious by now that i'm not anti-tas, it will be shortly.

ouch.

err, anyway, i think i am on your side. however, the burden is on us-the console speed runners-and the position of power that you have is not the one that can simply force them to go your way. in fact, i think that previous situations have made it worse for us.

nate

2006-05-15 01:04:23 pm

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

So we here at m2k2sda are concerned with making sure that people that don't read know what's going on.

Right.

again, you clearly have little experience dealing with the world outside of speed running -- or, at least, you have never cared whether people have any idea of what you're talking about.

to start off today, here's another excellent example of the tas problem in action:

http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=main;action=display;num=1131303052;start=90#93

i'm referring to the second to last post there, aresake's. clearly, tas cannot be said to find only its minority audience. i also contend that it finds that majority audience precisely because it is not sufficiently well labeled.

here is an additional source to back up that assertion:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79895

notice how very few people there have any idea what tas is (the fact that the video was not performed in real time) until they are fortunate enough to have it explained to them. notice also how it is not a member of the tas community, but a member of the majority community (red scarlet), who is forced to explain things. this is a crime because it is so preventable.

Quote from Red Scarlet there in post #44:

If it's a Tool-Assisted Speedrun, it isn't realtime. And that one seems to say that's what it is at the start.

this is crucial: she has to explain to them what tas is even though they have already seen the video labeled as such. the tas community and their label have failed the majority audience.

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

Quote from 13M13:

The source of the "TAS problem" is stupid people...not TASers...

That's probably the truest thing yet said in this thread.

i am aware of this, but i am also aware that stupid people will not improve on their own. that's why they're stupid. also keep in mind that you just called nearly everyone stupid in those topics i linked to above. clearly you are either unaware of the widespread problems the tas community is causing for the majority community, or you don't care. as i've said before, not caring is a luxury you have, but i have not.

Quote from Spine Shark:

Quote from nate:

ARRR TAS SYMPATHIZER *bans*

but seriously, if it's not obvious by now that i'm not anti-tas, it will be shortly.

ouch.

err, anyway, i think i am on your side. however, the burden is on us-the console speed runners-and the position of power that you have is not the one that can simply force them to go your way. in fact, i think that previous situations have made it worse for us.

this topic is not an attempt by me to force anyone to do anything. at this stage, i am merely raising awareness of the situation. if it is resolved on its own as a result of this topic, great. if not, then i am required to keep trying until it is resolved.

[quote="SABERinBLUE"]So we here at m2k2sda are concerned with making sure that people that don't read know what's going on.

Right.[/quote]
again, you clearly have little experience dealing with the world outside of speed running -- or, at least, you have never cared whether people have any idea of what you're talking about.

to start off today, here's another excellent example of the tas problem in action:

[url]http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=main;action=display;num=1131303052;start=90#93[/url]

i'm referring to the second to last post there, aresake's. clearly, tas cannot be said to find only its minority audience. i also contend that it finds that majority audience precisely because it is not sufficiently well labeled.

here is an additional source to back up that assertion:

[url]http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79895[/url]

notice how very few people there have any idea what tas is (the fact that the video was not performed in real time) until they are fortunate enough to have it explained to them. notice also how it is not a member of the tas community, but a member of the majority community (red scarlet), who is forced to explain things. this is a crime because it is so preventable.

[quote="Red Scarlet there in post #44"]If it's a Tool-Assisted Speedrun, it isn't realtime. And that one seems to say that's what it is at the start.[/quote]
this is crucial: [b]she has to explain to them what tas is even though they have already seen the video labeled as such. the tas community and their label have failed the majority audience.[/b]

[quote="SABERinBLUE"][quote="13M13"]The source of the "TAS problem" is stupid people...not TASers...[/quote]

That's probably the truest thing yet said in this thread.[/quote]
i am aware of this, but i am also aware that stupid people will not improve on their own. that's why they're stupid. also keep in mind that you just called nearly everyone stupid in those topics i linked to above. clearly you are either unaware of the widespread problems the tas community is causing for the majority community, or you don't care. as i've said before, not caring is a luxury you have, but i have not.

[quote="Spine Shark"][quote="nate"]ARRR TAS SYMPATHIZER *bans*

but seriously, if it's not obvious by now that i'm not anti-tas, it will be shortly.[/quote]ouch.

err, anyway, i think i am on your side.  however, the burden is on us-the console speed runners-and the position of power that you have is not the one that can simply force them to go your way.  in fact, i think that previous situations have made it worse for us.[/quote]
this topic is not an attempt by me to force anyone to do anything. at this stage, i am merely raising awareness of the situation. if it is resolved on its own as a result of this topic, great. if not, then i am required to keep trying until it is resolved.

Dragonfangs

2006-05-15 01:19:45 pm

Quote from nate:

Quote from BlueGlass:

Nate, I don't believe your claim that Dragonfangs's TAS's sucess shows that the word cheated doesn't matter actually works, because that TAS has only been shown to people who already know about TAS. Had it been released to the internet in general and been well-accepted, then I'd believe you.

right. unclear how much exposure the run got outside of m2k2. the doubt i have about the "cheated" label hurting tas is probably the least proven and most conjectural part of my post.

An experiment might be in order. Basically, post the run somewhere (GameFAQs comes to mind) and watch the reactions. BUT, I think it would be better if there was no explanation of TAS on the download page, only the disclaimer in every video. Neither archive.org or the topic here fit with those criteria.

Using random people as experimentees feels kinda horrible, but is there a better way to find out?

spineshark

2006-05-15 01:23:08 pm

in the name of justice!

they're only gamefaqs people ^_^

nate, whether or not this topic in particular is meant to change the situation, it's still obvious that you want something to be done about this, and all "renaming" solutions seem like to be too controversial. of course, i'm a good deal more pissed off now after the "petition for 'NATE' runs" at bisq's.

nate

2006-05-15 01:30:53 pm

yeah, that topic was great. i'm not sure what you're trying to suggest though.

d.fangs, yeah, maybe what you should do is direct link all of the segments from archive in a gamefaqs topic and say LOOK AT WHAT THIS GUY DID LOLLER. BTW YOU NEED DIVX TO PLAY IT LOLLER.

edit: jesus christ. broken url ftw.

DominicanZero

2006-05-15 01:49:53 pm

直死の魔眼使い

Roffle. You never cease to amaze me, Nate. xD

SABERinBLUE

2006-05-15 01:56:11 pm

Cook of the Sea

Quote from nate:

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

So we here at m2k2sda are concerned with making sure that people that don't read know what's going on.

Right.

again, you clearly have little experience dealing with the world outside of speed running -- or, at least, you have never cared whether people have any idea of what you're talking about.

Once again you stop short of addressing my post.

nate

2006-05-15 01:59:17 pm

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

Quote from nate:

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

So we here at m2k2sda are concerned with making sure that people that don't read know what's going on.

Right.

again, you clearly have little experience dealing with the world outside of speed running -- or, at least, you have never cared whether people have any idea of what you're talking about.

Once again you stop short of addressing my post.

clearly it is the minority community's duty to label their products properly, but because they can't seem to figure out how to do it effectively, and because it's really my problem and not theirs, i am here now trying to tell them how to fix it. it's my problem because it's members of my community (people i lead/am responsible for) who have to do extra work because of the negligence of the tas community.

SABERinBLUE

2006-05-15 02:00:21 pm

Cook of the Sea

Once again, that's not even slightly the question that I asked.

Dragonfangs

2006-05-15 02:04:03 pm

I think a random downloading site (Rapidshare, Megaupload) or a video streaming site (Google video, Youtube) would do better.

EDIT: Youtube has a 100mb limit so that won't work. Google video takes time to upload, You can't download the whole run in one sitting with Rapidshare, Megaupload is quite simply ugly.
...
Google video it is.

nate

2006-05-15 02:07:08 pm

(talking to saber on irc)

crap, d.fangs, if only i had known last night, i could have uploaded it to google video from work. maybe your swedish internet connection has a better upload speed than mine though and it won't take you too long.

Dragonfangs

2006-05-15 02:10:17 pm

Meh, the long time taken is not from uploading, it's from confirmation and stuff.