The problem with TAS, and a solution

2006-05-15 02:17:34 pm

oh yeah, i remember that now. sux. well, we'll find out sooner or later anyway.

edit: don't forget to put "cheated" in the video title.

spineshark

2006-05-15 02:32:28 pm

in the name of justice!

yeah, i don't know either. i don't think anybody has handled it particularly well, as both sides have just come off as really big kraids to each other.

Quote:

seem like to be

ugh, damnit.

haha, anyway, there are just no easy answers here. people who make quarked runs are proud of their work (including me). because they don't want to be branded as "cheaters" or something equally dislikeable ("gay democrats"? >.< i couldn't resist) the primary solution will be impossible to pull through (based on the unenthusiastic response to the cooler and less offensive "cyborg"). i guess i totally fail to have a point here.

aahh...somebody moved all of the number keys on my keyboard...!

man, fuck the first person plural. i can't even tell what it means when i'm writing this.

nate

2006-05-15 02:39:49 pm

don't have to use cheated if another equally effective solution is found. i was just proposing one that i think would solve the problem.

edit: and afaik there's nothing wrong with being gay or a democrat.

spineshark

2006-05-15 02:45:25 pm

in the name of justice!

of course not. it just popped into my head randomly.

thing is, now you have to find something that will have a strong connotation for the audience but not for the tasers...i don't see it. =(

Yoshi348

2006-05-15 02:49:26 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Not realtime? That's basically how Scarlet explained it quickly, and Qlex also said something like that. It's much more able to be worked with right now anyway.

Qlex

2006-05-15 03:24:55 pm

Yoshi answered before me. Yeah, it's exactly like that.

USBCD36

2006-05-15 04:46:30 pm

Personally, I think "cheated run" fits perfectly. Seeing TAS, or Tool-Assisted at the top of the run's page, will not alert the unwary person as to what lies beyond the download link, but a shocking term will stand out more at people, and possible persuade them to read more as to why it appears.

It can be argued that "cheated" or "cheating" is not the correct term, but it remains true that a less-significant term will not have the same effect.

Think about this: imagine you are using a GameShark to help beat a difficult game. Your friends are watching you play, and are fully aware that cheat codes are being used. This does NOT change the fact that the codes are modifying the gameplay, and therefore it does not change the fact that you are cheating. The term does not refer to the fact that the people are being deceived, but the fact that the GAME is being altered.

Dragonfangs

2006-05-15 04:50:54 pm

Quote from USBCD36:

Think about this: imagine you are using a GameShark to help beat a difficult game. Your friends are watching you play, and are fully aware that cheat codes are being used. This does NOT change the fact that the codes are modifying the gameplay, and therefore it does not change the fact that you are cheating. The term does not refer to the fact that the people are being deceived, but the fact that the GAME is being altered.

Exactly why TASing is NOT cheating, it doesn't alter the game's code.

Izo

2006-05-15 04:54:02 pm

soaking through

I don't see a problem with the meaning of the word; rather, I just think that labelling their runs with something as blatantly derogatory and demeaning as the word "cheated" is just gonna make this dispute even more heated and hostile. It's also something that they'll never agree to, and that, kids, is why utilitarianism doesn't work.

arkarian

2006-05-15 04:59:01 pm

red chamber dream

Now I'm sort of on the other side of the word "cheated". I think I'd rather have the videos say something like, as previously mentioned, "This runthrough was done with the assistance of slowdown, savestates, etc. on an emulator. It was not played in real time."

Using "runthrough" is distinct enough to show that it is, certainly, a run, but it clears up confusion from the term "speed run", which originally and usually refers to real-time console runs.

USBCD36

2006-05-15 05:15:03 pm

Quote from Dragonfangs:

Exactly why TASing is NOT cheating, it doesn't alter the game's code.

But it does alter the gameplay. The person doing the run could not perform those tricks with the same ease on their own.

I'll say what I said again: I agree that although "cheated" may not be the best term, it has the "shock" that is necessary to make the person watching do a double-take and realize that there is something about this run that they might be interested in knowing. If you have a better word that will stand out as much, I'd like to hear it. Perhaps it will help to resolve the deal.

Skreemaster

2006-05-15 06:17:51 pm

I'll be back. Maybe...

now, i could say much about TASs and cheating, but the way i define cheating as the set of operations that cannot be done on the game by an infinite number of players with an infinite number of consoles

this might seem quite an arbitrary definition, but it clearly separates things that are impossible from things that merely require skill of which humans are incapable.

as for TASs, i don't really see anything wrong with them per se; i've been doing much borging myself recently. the problem, as many people have already said, is when a TAS is mistaken for a run no human could ever duplicate, to the detriment of those who produce normal runs. the solution, as many people have also put forward, is just a matter of information: when everyone who watches speed runs knows the difference between a normal speed run and a TAS, then there will no longer be a problem. therefore, this should be our goal as regards TASs.

i have probably not mentioned anything new (apart from my interesting definition of cheating), but as i have been musing over this same issue myself, i thought it would be best to make my opinions known.

-Azoyan-

now, i could say much about TASs and cheating, but the way i define cheating as the set of operations that cannot be done on the game by an infinite number of players with an infinite number of consoles

this might seem quite an arbitrary definition, but it clearly separates things that are impossible from things that merely require skill of which humans are incapable.

as for TASs, i don't really see anything wrong with them per se; i've been doing much borging myself recently. the problem, as many people have already said, is when a TAS is mistaken for a run no human could ever duplicate, to the detriment of those who produce normal runs. the solution, as many people have also put forward, is just a matter of information: when everyone who watches speed runs knows the difference between a normal speed run and a TAS, then there will no longer be a problem. therefore, this should be our goal as regards TASs.

i have probably not mentioned anything new (apart from my interesting definition of cheating), but as i have been musing over this same issue myself, i thought it would be best to make my opinions known.

-Azoyan-

13M13

2006-05-15 08:54:10 pm

l'appel du vide

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/speed-run/even-faster-super-mario-speed-run-video-171282.php
Four hours after the video was posted, you'd have seen this:

Quote:

It's not hacked, it's just done in slowdown/save states so he can get frame precision. The game ROM is completely legitimate.

This video was released on Bisqwit's quite a while ago.

Someone stripped the disclaimer explaining what I just did though, and it's those people that give tool-assisted speedrunners a bad name.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79895
Notice how it only took ~30 minutes for someone to correct the OP?

The other links are quite similar.

Now, I have no beef with your desire for them to incorporate a longer splash screen before each video (though I do believe what they've done is fine), but for someone to suggest they display a watermark or completely rename their work so as to not displease the almighty "majority" is...absurd.

And what statistics are you basing this "majority ownz j00" claim on? Forum members? What happens if Bisqwit's site ends up with more? Does that mean they're no longer the minority? (Right now, they have ~40% less members than SDA.)

Regardless, you're in the business of free entertainment and I don't see how you have the right to order them around...

If anything, reading through the links shown as "evidence" against TASers, did anyone notice how often SDA comes up? Looks like this "problem" may actually be helping spread the word...? And if ya'll want to be perfectly clear with you're audience...why aren't you providing a disclaimer stating how your run was done in real-time? Oh...but...right..."majority rites 4life", eh?

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/speed-run/even-faster-super-mario-speed-run-video-171282.php
Four hours after the video was posted, you'd have seen this:
[quote]It's not hacked, it's just done in slowdown/save states so he can get frame precision. The game ROM is completely legitimate.

This video was released on Bisqwit's quite a while ago.

[color=orange]Someone stripped the disclaimer [/color]explaining what I just did though, and it's those people that give tool-assisted speedrunners a bad name.[/quote]
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79895
Notice how it only took ~30 minutes for someone to correct the OP?

The other links are quite similar.

Now, I have no beef with your desire for them to incorporate a longer splash screen before each video (though I do believe what they've done is fine), but for someone to suggest they display a watermark or completely rename their work so as to not displease the almighty "majority" is...absurd.

And what statistics are you basing this "majority ownz j00" claim on?  Forum members?  What happens if Bisqwit's site ends up with more? Does that mean they're no longer the minority? (Right now, they have ~40% less members than SDA.)

Regardless, you're in the business of free entertainment and I don't see how you have the right to order them around...

If anything, reading through the links shown as "evidence" against TASers, did anyone notice how often SDA comes up?  Looks like this "problem" may actually be helping spread the word...? And if ya'll want to be perfectly clear with you're audience...why aren't you providing a disclaimer stating how your run was done in real-time?  Oh...but...right..."majority rites 4life", eh?

transience

2006-05-15 09:17:50 pm

twenty eight fifty

...again? i must be the only person that just doesn't care about the terminology, the disclaimers or any of that. both are going to exist and both are always going to get confused, no matter what you do. i will say, however, that "tool-assisted" could be anything to an outsider. it could be the use of a turbo controller or someone using the konami code. "cheated" may be a better term, but it also casts them in a negative light that may or may not be intentional.

as for "evidence", i bring up my classic thread that i posted to when we did all this six months ago:

http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=other_games;action=display;num=1114928159

this is amazingly friendly at the moment. i hope it stays that way.

nate

2006-05-15 09:20:45 pm

Quote from 13M13:

[...]

Now, I have no beef with your desire for them to incorporate a longer splash screen before each video (though I do believe what they've done is fine), but for someone to suggest they display a watermark or completely rename their work so as to not displease the almighty "majority" is...absurd.

based on the evidence you just presented (people are stripping the splash screens), it sounds as though a watermark is the only viable option at this point.

Quote from adamcole at that first link:

Speed runs should be speed runs. Normal system, no emulator, just the real deal and a stopwatch. The way this is done is like being the best at Olympic Hurdles as long as you can stop the clock and rejump over and over until you get it just right.

i think it's safe to say you'll see this majority viewpoint everywhere a tas is posted and people are deceived. if people aren't deceived (they know it's "cheated" from the start), then there will be no such hating on tas from the majority audience, and the minority audience can watch tas in peace.

Quote from 13M13:

And what statistics are you basing this "majority ownz j00" claim on? Forum members? What happens if Bisqwit's site ends up with more? Does that mean they're no longer the minority? (Right now, they have ~40% less members than SDA.)

please see section 3. were the tas community's methods to become accepted by a majority audience, sda would become the new minority and would be obligated to carefully label their products so as to not deceive the new majority audience. and i would see to it.

Quote from 13M13:

Regardless, you're in the business of free entertainment and I don't see how you have the right to order them around...

i am not ordering anyone to do anything. ordering someone without the threat of action if they do not comply makes one look stupid. the most effective way of resolving the situation if they do not follow my sound advice does not involve attacking them in the traditional sense, so i decided to phrase everything in terms of "should" rather than "shall".

Quote from 13M13:

If anything, reading through the links shown as "evidence" against TASers, did anyone notice how often SDA comes up? Looks like this "problem" may actually be helping spread the word...? And if ya'll want to be perfectly clear with you're audience...why aren't you providing a disclaimer stating how your run was done in real-time? Oh...but...right..."majority rites 4life", eh?

now you're suggesting that the majority take responsibility for the minority's actions? that's backwards. providing a disclaimer stating that the run was done in real-time is not necessary, because that is the assumption of the majority audience. the burden is on the minority to clarify themselves.

[quote="13M13"][...]

Now, I have no beef with your desire for them to incorporate a longer splash screen before each video (though I do believe what they've done is fine), but for someone to suggest they display a watermark or completely rename their work so as to not displease the almighty "majority" is...absurd.[/quote]
based on the evidence you just presented (people are stripping the splash screens), it sounds as though a watermark is the only viable option at this point.

[quote="adamcole at that first link"]Speed runs should be speed runs. Normal system, no emulator, just the real deal and a stopwatch. The way this is done is like being the best at Olympic Hurdles as long as you can stop the clock and rejump over and over until you get it just right.[/quote]
i think it's safe to say you'll see this majority viewpoint everywhere a tas is posted and people are deceived. if people aren't deceived (they know it's "cheated" from the start), then there will be no such hating on tas from the majority audience, and the minority audience can watch tas in peace.

[quote="13M13"]And what statistics are you basing this "majority ownz j00" claim on?  Forum members?  What happens if Bisqwit's site ends up with more? Does that mean they're no longer the minority? (Right now, they have ~40% less members than SDA.)[/quote]
please see section 3. were the tas community's methods to become accepted by a majority audience, sda would become the new minority and would be obligated to carefully label their products so as to not deceive the new majority audience. and i would see to it.

[quote="13M13"]Regardless, you're in the business of free entertainment and I don't see how you have the right to order them around...[/quote]
i am not ordering anyone to do anything. ordering someone without the threat of action if they do not comply makes one look stupid. the most effective way of resolving the situation if they do not follow my sound advice does not involve attacking them in the traditional sense, so i decided to phrase everything in terms of "should" rather than "shall".

[quote="13M13"]If anything, reading through the links shown as "evidence" against TASers, did anyone notice how often SDA comes up?  Looks like this "problem" may actually be helping spread the word...? And if ya'll want to be perfectly clear with you're audience...why aren't you providing a disclaimer stating how your run was done in real-time?  Oh...but...right..."majority rites 4life", eh?[/quote]
now you're suggesting that the majority take responsibility for the minority's actions? that's backwards. providing a disclaimer stating that the run was done in real-time is not necessary, because that is the assumption of the majority audience. the burden is on the minority to clarify themselves.

13M13

2006-05-15 09:37:51 pm

l'appel du vide

Quote from Nate:

now you're suggesting that the majority take responsibility for the minority's actions? that's backwards. providing a disclaimer stating that the run was done in real-time is not necessary, because that is the assumption of the majority audience. the burden is on the minority to clarify themselves.

No. I'm suggesting you help un-stupify people.

The point being...I don't see how this is a widespread, rampant problem...you, however, believe otherwise...so why not further clarify your position and work?

The "minority" seem perfectly clear to me. The "majority" just seem to be blaming everything on the "minority".

And I probably should have said this from the very beginning: The Internet is not a democratic government.

nate

2006-05-15 09:51:19 pm

Quote from 13M13:

I'm suggesting you help un-stupify people.

isn't "people are stupid" one of the truest truisms ever though? go wizard's first rule.

Quote from 13M13:

The Internet is not a democratic government.

it could be if people would step up and take responsibility for their actions though. apparently not everyone is as interested in the greater good as i am (and that is understandable, but that is exactly what i was intending to show with this exercise), but because tasers have yet to represent themselves here, i shouldn't speak for them.

USBCD36

2006-05-15 10:03:48 pm

Quote from 13M13:

I'm suggesting you help un-stupify people.

But to do that, you must first get their attention.

One thing I've found about uninterested people is that unless you do the verbal equivalent of bashing their head with a rock, they're not gonna listen to what you have to say. Especially teens. Watch House episode 20 ("Love Hurts"), and you'll see what I mean about 2/3 of the way through.

13M13

2006-05-15 10:12:56 pm

l'appel du vide

Quote from Nate:

apparently not everyone is as interested in the greater good as i am.

But...if you were truly interested in this (subjective) greater good...why do you take such issue with the idea of further clarifying your own work? You can't force the TASers to help you with your goals (which may or may not be worthwhile)...so why not try something else? I just see complaints and damage control...

Quote from USB:

Quote from I:

I'm suggesting you help un-stupify people.

But to do that, you must first get their attention.

Okay. So...go ahead.

nate

2006-05-15 11:02:14 pm

Quote from 13M13:

Quote from Nate:

apparently not everyone is as interested in the greater good as i am.

But...if you were truly interested in this (subjective) greater good...why do you take such issue with the idea of further clarifying your own work? You can't force the TASers to help you with your goals (which may or may not be worthwhile)...so why not try something else? I just see complaints and damage control...

what is 'my work'?

Quote from 13M13:

Quote from USB:

Quote from I:

I'm suggesting you help un-stupify people.

But to do that, you must first get their attention.

Okay. So...go ahead.

i think he means putting a big CHEATED message before every tas. :P

spineshark

2006-05-15 11:37:13 pm

in the name of justice!

Quote from Izo:

I don't see a problem with the meaning of the word; rather, I just think that labelling their runs with something as blatantly derogatory and demeaning as the word "cheated" is just gonna make this dispute even more heated and hostile. It's also something that they'll never agree to, and that, kids, is why utilitarianism doesn't work.

yay izo. why did i bother to write all that other crap?

Quote:

Watch House episode 20 ("Love Hurts"), and you'll see what I mean about 2/3 of the way through.

ahahaha, "house" as psychological study :P

Zeke

2006-05-16 05:36:47 am

Time bomb set get out fast!

I have basically two thoughts on this. First, the relationship between the speed-running community and the tas community is frustrating me more and more. I'm not the type to blindly say "why can't we all just get along," but in this case there's every reason we should be able to. We love the same games, and we do similar things with them. Several runners at SDA mention getting new ideas from tas runs; tas runners in turn use speed-running tricks (e.g. the mockball) that no amount of rerecording would discover. Saber and others prove that you can be a fan of both kinds of run without compromising either.

Not to mention that the line between speed run and tas run isn't as sharp as we tend to think. When Sess played a segment over and over until he got the 1-in-8 combination of enemy movements he needed, what was that if not luck abuse? Don't we argue that speed runs demonstrate skill because this is what a human being can just pick up the controller and do? I've been thinking about this more and more lately, while I'm resetting until a boss battle goes the way I want or until I get just the right random encounter.

Using a term like "cheated," with its connotations, is basically hostile no matter how solid the reasons are. (And to be honest, I don't find the majority/minority part of the argument compelling.) It'll certainly be taken as hostile by the tas community. It bothers me. For lack of a better term, it feels like "being a jerk" about this.

Which brings me to my second point... I agree with Nate on this one, 100%.

All the good intentions in the world won't change the fact that there is a basic conflict between what we do and what they do. We want to present speed runs our way, they want to present tas runs their way, and amateurs can't tell the difference. I've dismissed those amateurs in the past, saying there's no reason to care what they think. But whether I would care or not, people like Nate and Red Scarlet do, and that matters. And I have to admit that when I create something, I do care what random people think. That's human.

There is no perfect compromise that lets us both get our way. It's nice to be nice, but it's not always a good idea. Sometimes you have to be a jerk. And that's doubly true on the internet.

The term "cheated" is the only one I've heard that would actually work. It conveys almost the entire point by itself. If it were standard, we wouldn't get threads like the one I saw calling an SMB3 tas run "proof that heroes still walk the earth." People would understand that the player didn't just sit down and murder SMB3, that some kind of help was involved. Only a real speedrun would still command, and deserve, that sort of respect.

I'm not a fool -- obviously the term won't become standard. But if speed running communities used it consistently, it would at least gain some ground. Language is a weapon, one that we've denied ourselves so far by using 50 different terms for tas runs. The people we want to reach are tas viewers who are "just passing through." They only care enough to get one of two messages: "that was awesome" or "that was fake." We need to do what we can to make it the second one.

"Cheated" isn't nice. It isn't perfect. But compared to "tas" and "cyborg" and "emu rape" and "quarked" (much as I like that one), there's just no contest. "Cheated" is our best option. We don't have to like it, but we should use it.

I have basically two thoughts on this.  First, the relationship between the speed-running community and the tas community is frustrating me more and more.  I'm not the type to blindly say "why can't we all just get along," but in this case there's every reason we [i]should[/i] be able to.  We love the same games, and we do similar things with them.  Several runners at SDA mention getting new ideas from tas runs; tas runners in turn use speed-running tricks (e.g. the mockball) that no amount of rerecording would discover.  Saber and others prove that you can be a fan of both kinds of run without compromising either.

Not to mention that the line between speed run and tas run isn't as sharp as we tend to think.  When Sess played a segment over and over until he got the 1-in-8 combination of enemy movements he needed, what was that if not luck abuse?  Don't we argue that speed runs demonstrate skill because this is what a human being can just pick up the controller and do?  I've been thinking about this more and more lately, while I'm resetting until a boss battle goes the way I want or until I get just the right random encounter.

Using a term like "cheated," with its connotations, is basically hostile no matter how solid the reasons are.  (And to be honest, I don't find the majority/minority part of the argument compelling.)  It'll certainly be taken as hostile by the tas community.  It bothers me.  For lack of a better term, it feels like "being a jerk" about this.

Which brings me to my second point... I agree with Nate on this one, 100%.

All the good intentions in the world won't change the fact that there [i]is[/i] a basic conflict between what we do and what they do.  We want to present speed runs our way, they want to present tas runs their way, and amateurs can't tell the difference.  I've dismissed those amateurs in the past, saying there's no reason to care what they think.  But whether I would care or not, people like Nate and Red Scarlet do, and that [i]matters[/i].  And I have to admit that when I create something, I do care what random people think.  That's human.

There is no perfect compromise that lets us both get our way.  It's nice to be nice, but it's not always a good idea.  Sometimes you [i]have to be a jerk[/i].  And that's doubly true on the internet.

The term "cheated" is the only one I've heard that would actually work.  It conveys almost the entire point by itself.  If it were standard, we wouldn't get threads like the one I saw calling an SMB3 tas run "proof that heroes still walk the earth."  People would understand that the player didn't just sit down and murder SMB3, that some kind of help was involved.  Only a real speedrun would still command, and deserve, that sort of respect.

I'm not a fool -- obviously the term [i]won't[/i] become standard.  But if speed running communities used it consistently, it would at least gain some ground.  Language is a weapon, one that we've denied ourselves so far by using 50 different terms for tas runs.  The people we want to reach are tas viewers who are "just passing through."  They only care enough to get one of two messages: "that was awesome" or "that was fake."  We need to do what we can to make it the second one.

"Cheated" isn't nice.  It isn't perfect.  But compared to "tas" and "cyborg" and "emu rape" and "quarked" (much as I like that one), there's just no contest.  "Cheated" is our best option.  We don't have to like it, but we should use it.

SABERinBLUE

2006-05-16 05:47:19 am

Cook of the Sea

Quote from Zeke:

We don't have to like it, but we should use it.

Who is the "we" here?

13M13

2006-05-16 08:33:44 am

l'appel du vide

Quote from Zeke:

Language is a weapon, one that we've denied ourselves so far by using 50 different terms for tas runs.

So call them what their creators call them...TAS runs...

Quote:

...we wouldn't get threads like the one I saw calling an SMB3 tas run "proof that heroes still walk the earth."

I would contend that a great majority of the people who participate in those threads walk away from it with a greater understanding of speedrunning.

Because once someone becomes interested in something, they tend to look for more of it...and in doing so, gain a better grasp of the subject matter. And for those individuals that have no more than a fleeting interest in your work...honestly...what difference do they make?

Interest leads to understanding. The truth comes out eventually.

But for those of you who insist on remaining impatient, by all means resort to "being a jerk". Then again...do you truly wish to sacrifice your self-respect because of that impatience?

Qlex

2006-05-16 02:38:59 pm

Quote from 13M13:

Quote from Zeke:

Language is a weapon, one that we've denied ourselves so far by using 50 different terms for tas runs.

So call them what their creators call them...TAS runs...

Come on... THAT is the problem.