The problem with TAS, and a solution

2006-05-21 11:10:48 pm

Okay then. What are savestates? What are rerecords?

I think slowdown is self-evident, but have fun explaining to my mom what the above two are.

BlueGlass

2006-05-21 11:42:23 pm

Fine: "This video was not made in real time. It uses the savestate and rerecord functions found on many emulators, which allow players to not only save at any time they want, but resume recording the video from that point at the time of their choosing, and the slowdown feature also found on many emulators. For more details see http://bisqwit.iki.fi/nesvideos/WhyAndHow.html."

13M13

2006-05-21 11:42:52 pm

l'appel du vide

If the viewer is interested in watching more TASs, they will go to the website.

If the viewer is not interested in watching more TASs, they won't go to the website.

Come on, folks...this isn't hard.

BlueGlass

2006-05-21 11:52:28 pm

Quote from 13M13:

If the viewer is interested in watching more TASs, then they'll go to the website.

If the viewer is not interested in watching more TASs, then they won't go to the website.

Come on, folks...this isn't hard.

What if the viewer doesn't understand what TASs are, thinks them to be regular speedruns of extremely good quality, and does not bother to follow the link, simply thinking "Wow, that was neat; I'll show it to all my friends!" Wherupon the friends also fail to understand what a TAS is, and, upon seeing a regular speedrun, think that it is boring and slow because it isn't as fast as the TAS which they think is real due to an insufficient description.

13M13

2006-05-21 11:59:55 pm

l'appel du vide

And what if they want to watch more? Where do they go? Who's the largest source of such speedruns?

BlueGlass

2006-05-22 12:08:57 am

Then they'll find SDA and probably learn what TASs are. But lots of people will probably find it interesting but not interesting enough to search for more.

Purple Lizard

2006-05-22 11:18:42 am

Quote from BlueGlass:

Then they'll find SDA and probably learn what TASs are. But lots of people will probably find it interesting but not interesting enough to search for more.

Errr... if they want to see more, wouldn't it make more sense to guess that they'd follow the link to Bisqwit that is already right there in the video, where it will not only explain everything, but link to other vids? And if they don't, then they'll google, find SDA, and as you say, learn what a TAS is anyways.

As for the other demograph, really, why should we care what the people who aren't interested in finding more vids think? Obviously they don't. To them, seeing a TAS video is no more different than going to youtube and seeing a video of a man getting hit in the groin by a football. They don't care if it was spontaneous or if the video was preplanned, all they care is "whoa, man got hit in the groin by a football... cool. Next vid!" so why should we care enough to clear that up? Ok, so "worst" case scenario, they spread it among their friends, creating a chain of misinformation that it's a legit video. At that point, you'll get a couple of these scenarios:

a) They'll be like the initial person, not knowing what a TAS is, and not really caring, in which case like I said, why should we care what they think if they aren't really interested in the subject anyways?

b) Already know what TASs are, and be like, "oh, it's just a TAS."

c) Not know what a TAS is, but wants to see more speedruns, where, again, they'll either follow the link in the video to bisqwits, or they'll google and eventually end up at sda or bisqwit, or even TG, and learn what a TAS is anyways.

[quote="BlueGlass"]Then they'll find SDA and probably learn what TASs are.  But lots of people will probably find it interesting but not interesting enough to search for more.[/quote]

Errr... if they want to see more, wouldn't it make more sense to guess that they'd follow the link to Bisqwit that is already right there in the video, where it will not only explain everything, but link to other vids?  And if they don't, then they'll google, find SDA, and as you say, learn what a TAS is anyways.

As for the other demograph, really, why should we care what the people who aren't interested in finding more vids think?  Obviously they don't.  To them, seeing a TAS video is no more different than going to youtube and seeing a video of a man getting hit in the groin by a football.  They don't care if it was spontaneous or if the video was preplanned, all they care is "whoa, man got hit in the groin by a football... cool.  Next vid!"   so why should we care enough to clear that up?  Ok, so "worst" case scenario, they spread it among their friends, creating a chain of misinformation that it's a legit video.  At that point, you'll get a couple of these scenarios:

a)  They'll be like the initial person, not knowing what a TAS is, and not really caring, in which case like I said, why should we care what they think if they aren't really interested in the subject anyways?

b)  Already know what TASs are, and be like, "oh, it's just a TAS."

c)  Not know what a TAS is, but wants to see more speedruns, where, again, they'll either follow the link in the video to bisqwits, or they'll google and eventually end up at sda or bisqwit, or even TG, and learn what a TAS is anyways.

Periodico

2006-05-23 04:40:17 pm

I see this as a problem sure. I saw the eleven minute SMB3 run and was entirely flamboozled. However, within a day or two it was sorted out because I found more info on the subject.

1. If the person doesn't want to find out more, screw 'im. We don't need that type.

2. If the person already knows good for them.

3. If the person has a brain but doesn't know. they soon will.

So basically it's a self-solving problem. IMO of course

nate

2006-05-24 04:01:06 am

Quote from Ekarderif:

Quote from nate:

i also don't believe that the tasers are evil per se, rather that they are so self-absorbed that they are unaware of the evil of their inaction.

You saying that other people are self-absorbed?

i would like to think that i am responsive to a majority of people if they find fault in something i am doing or not doing; see below for more on this.

Quote from Ekarderif:

Quote from nate:

the status quo should never be satisfactory to you. if it is, then that's how you know you've outlived your usefulness.

I want world peace. I got world peace. Therefore, I am useless.

agreed.

Quote from Ekarderif:

Quote from nate:

perhaps if something is clearly considered objectionable by the majority (such as tas) then clear warnings should be added. but because sda is the majority and (like most majorities) desires to stay that way, probably we would just disallow anything considered objectionable. tg goes mental with this, banning everything they become aware of and then only allowing things through they're sure the majority would approve of.

So we follow TG's example. Got it.

was contrasting tg with sda a little in that tg bans first and asks questions later, while sda has global rules and only bans things locally if it's absolutely necessary for sanity purposes.

Quote from Ekarderif:

Quote from nate:

i am irrelevant here - what i am saying should not be taken as a viewpoint, but it's irresponsible to cast things otherwise unless i have proof backing me up.

Translation: ignore my rant.

very good. :) saber didn't seem to understand that last paragraph too well, but you did.

Quote from Ekarderif:

I'm pretty sure I'll be gone for a long while again. Nice to see that some people will never change.

i still don't understand how i as an individual can make that big of an impression on you. surely on irc you had realized long before this whole thing that i was not worth looking up to if you ever had looked up to me before. i learned even before i came into this community that the chances of me being right about everything all the time are not very good, and so i became highly tolerant in terms of what i allow people to say and do around here. in this way i can learn from trends and become more like the people i am supposed to represent, effectively making me eternal and invincible. i might never be able to make decisions on my own, but at least i know i will always be useful to others.

this all will pass.

Quote from Maur:

So the guy who thought the random smb vid he saw a while back was real. Alright, fine. However, if he tried to find other videos (probably through the website linked to in the vid, since that's the logical place to look), he'd quickly realized what happens. And if he doesn't, well, he doesn't care either way because he's not interested in this type of media at all. It'd be telling him stuff he doesn't care about and is likely to forget. And if he doesn't know it's a TAS, correcting that misconception is NOT worth the cost of denigrating an entire freaking community.

very good observation.

this is the first time anyone has said anything that has fundamentally changed how i think about the situation. i still think that tasers misrepresenting their videos to the general public is a negative trait, but i think that you have just forced me to divide the general public into three categories - those who don't care about speed running in general and who accidentally happen upon either deceptive or non-deceptive videos, those who are interested in speed running and want to learn more after seeing either a deceptive video or a non-deceptive video, and finally, those who already understand the distinction between tas and non-tas and want to find more of a specific type of video.

for the first group and only the first group is the tas problem actually in permanent effect. the other two groups, as you said, will eventually come to the truth in spite of the deception. there is no doubt about this, because sda is so huge that you can't avoid it anymore. obviously, there's always room for improvement, but i think that the situation is different from before sda existed in its current form capable of having relations with the media and dominating search results and so on.

i also finally understand what people were saying when they would write things like "we don't care about them" - they were referring to the first group, which i was actually including in my definition of the majority audience, but perhaps that was not clear from what i wrote in the first post (i was definitely including it in my mind). yikes.

this leads me to believe that i should now proceed to inject sda with growth hormone in order to better meet the needs of the second and third groups.

Quote from Maur:

Personal initiative is everything. If they refuse to take it, they are lost, and there's nothing you can do about that. The content is labelled. If they refuse to read the labels, I don't care what impression they get, and I won't hurt a community just to be sure that they won't get the correct impression.

wording it like this makes it very difficult for me to understand, because i am constantly confronted by people who have no initiative and then i have to serve them anyway, stuff like people illegally submitting runs to sda (what do i do with the tapes? throw them away? send them back at my expense? capture them anyway?). lack of initiative in the audience is never a reason to give up from a marketing point of view. if they won't turn to look at you, then get in their faces, that kind of thing.

basically with this topic i was suggesting a way to sidestep the initiative problem. but if it turns out the people with no personal initiative are in fact the very same people who are simply noobs/noncontributors to what very well could forever remain an underground phenomenon, then there is no need to reach out to those people at all. even if i succeeded, it would be as if i never even tried. m2k2sda would be exactly the same in every way that matters (the reasons why i wake up in the morning).

so yeah, it's time to work on sda. (i was going to do this anyway, but now i can focus on it exclusively.)

[quote="Ekarderif"][quote="nate"]i also don't believe that the tasers are evil per se, rather that they are so self-absorbed that they are unaware of the evil of their inaction.[/quote]
[b]You[/b] saying that other people are self-absorbed?[/quote]
i would like to think that i am responsive to a majority of people if they find fault in something i am doing or not doing; see below for more on this.

[quote="Ekarderif"][quote="nate"]the status quo should never be satisfactory to you. if it is, then that's how you know you've outlived your usefulness.[/quote]
I want world peace. I got world peace. Therefore, I am useless.[/quote]
agreed.

[quote="Ekarderif"][quote="nate"]perhaps if something is clearly considered objectionable by the majority (such as tas) then clear warnings should be added. but because sda is the majority and (like most majorities) desires to stay that way, probably we would just disallow anything considered objectionable. tg goes mental with this, banning everything they become aware of and then only allowing things through they're sure the majority would approve of.[/quote]
So we follow TG's example. Got it.[/quote]
was contrasting tg with sda a little in that tg bans first and asks questions later, while sda has global rules and only bans things locally if it's absolutely necessary for sanity purposes.

[quote="Ekarderif"][quote="nate"]i am irrelevant here - what i am saying should not be taken as a viewpoint, but it's irresponsible to cast things otherwise unless i have proof backing me up.[/quote]
Translation: ignore my rant.[/quote]
very good. :) saber didn't seem to understand that last paragraph too well, but you did.

[quote="Ekarderif"]I'm pretty sure I'll be gone for a long while again. Nice to see that some people will never change.[/quote]
i still don't understand how i as an individual can make that big of an impression on you. surely on irc you had realized long before this whole thing that i was not worth looking up to if you ever had looked up to me before. i learned even before i came into this community that the chances of me being right about everything all the time are not very good, and so i became highly tolerant in terms of what i allow people to say and do around here. in this way i can learn from trends and become more like the people i am supposed to represent, effectively making me eternal and invincible. i might never be able to make decisions on my own, but at least i know i will always be useful to others.

this all will pass.

[quote="Maur"]So the guy who thought the random smb vid he saw a while back was real.  Alright, fine.  However, if he tried to find other videos (probably through the website linked to in the vid, since that's the logical place to look), he'd quickly realized what happens.  And if he doesn't, well, he doesn't care either way because he's not interested in this type of media at all.  It'd be telling him stuff he doesn't care about and is likely to forget.  And if he doesn't know it's a TAS, correcting that misconception is [b]NOT[/b] worth the cost of denigrating an entire freaking community.[/quote]

[b]very good observation[/b].

this is the first time anyone has said anything that has fundamentally changed how i think about the situation. i still think that tasers misrepresenting their videos to the general public is a negative trait, but i think that you have just forced me to divide the general public into [i]three[/i] categories - those who don't care about speed running in general and who accidentally happen upon either deceptive or non-deceptive videos, those who are interested in speed running and want to learn more after seeing either a deceptive video or a non-deceptive video, and finally, those who already understand the distinction between tas and non-tas and want to find more of a specific type of video.

for the first group and only the first group is the tas problem actually in permanent effect. the other two groups, as you said, will eventually come to the truth in spite of the deception. there is no doubt about this, because sda is so huge that you can't avoid it anymore. obviously, there's always room for improvement, but i think that the situation is different from before sda existed in its current form capable of having relations with the media and dominating search results and so on.

i also finally understand what people were saying when they would write things like "we don't care about them" - they were referring to the first group, which i was actually including in my definition of the majority audience, but perhaps that was not clear from what i wrote in the first post (i was definitely including it in my mind). yikes.

this leads me to believe that i should now proceed to inject sda with growth hormone in order to better meet the needs of the second and third groups.

[quote="Maur"]Personal initiative is everything.  If they refuse to take it, they are lost, and there's nothing you can do about that.  The content is labelled.  If they refuse to read the labels, I don't care what impression they get, and I won't hurt a community just to be sure that they won't get the correct impression.[/quote]
wording it like this makes it very difficult for me to understand, because i am constantly confronted by people who have no initiative and then i have to serve them anyway, stuff like people illegally submitting runs to sda (what do i do with the tapes? throw them away? send them back at my expense? capture them anyway?). lack of initiative in the audience is never a reason to give up from a marketing point of view. if they won't turn to look at you, then get in their faces, that kind of thing.

basically with this topic i was suggesting a way to sidestep the initiative problem. but if it turns out the people with no personal initiative are in fact the very same people who are simply noobs/noncontributors to what very well could forever remain an underground phenomenon, then there is no need to reach out to those people at all. even if i succeeded, it would be as if i never even tried. m2k2sda would be exactly the same in every way that matters (the reasons why i wake up in the morning).

so yeah, it's time to work on sda. (i was going to do this anyway, but now i can focus on it exclusively.)

Yoshi348

2006-05-24 12:00:37 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Maur wins a cookie. OF AWESOME.

transience

2006-05-24 04:59:49 pm

twenty eight fifty

perhaps a picture of me is in order:

nate

2006-05-24 05:06:44 pm

baby luke! you stole maur's cookie!

Izo

2006-05-24 05:08:02 pm

soaking through

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw.

We need some way of integrating that into the site. >_>

Maur

2006-05-24 05:20:56 pm

/me resorts to cannibalism and eats luke.

I want the cookie.

Quote:

but if it turns out the people with no personal initiative are in fact the very same people who are simply noobs/noncontributors to what very well could forever remain an underground phenomenon, then there is no need to reach out to those people at all.

Yes; agreed; exactly; insert-affirmation-here. That's it. :)

MonsterERB

2006-05-24 07:53:13 pm

With everything that's been said, I'd just like to sum up my opinions. Nothing that others haven't already stated, but still:
...
* the analogies of "majority/minority" and "law enforcement" might be logically sound - but they miss the point entirely. Nate, Radix, anyone here at m2k2/sda - NONE OF US has any authority whatsoever to make Bisqwit's site, or other TASers, label their runs any differently. My analogy is this - nate and Radix have a "jurisdiction" - m2k2 and SDA. They can set the policies there as they see fit. They have no say whatsoever in any policies at Bisqwit's site or any other TAS site. It would be like the California State Police sending a harshly worded letter to the Illinois State Police, telling them exactly how they should rethink their policies regarding speed traps on the highway. The Illinois State Police would likely respond, "Thanks very much. Now shut the hell up and go away, asswipe." Doesn't matter that California is more populous than Illinois, and thus could be seen as having the majority viewpoint. They have no say whatsoever in anything that goes on outside of their jurisdiction. Whether their opinion is right or not is irrelevant. Whether their solution is obviously superior is irrelevant. They are overstepping their bounds and are going to be ignored. Just human nature to react that way when you feel someone is "butting in" or "not minding their own business".
...
* Given that we (meaning, m2k2 members, SDA members, console speedrunners, and console speedrun fans) cannot force the TAS community to do anything, we must PERSUADE them to do something. A solution must be proposed that the TAS community finds to its liking, otherwise they will continue with the status quo. As much as the word "cheated" would accomplish the purpose of quickly informing the average viewer that something about the gameplay they're about to watch is different... the TAS community is not going to accept the word. It carries with it a broad negative connotation that they believe should not be attached to their videos. So, they WON'T attach it to their vids. End of discussion. If someone can come up with a term that (a) explains clearly how the video content is made, (b) is easily understandable to a casual viewer, and (c) is accepted by the TAS community, then you have a solution. Any term MUST accomplish objective (c) or it will not be used. "Cheated" does well at (a) and (b), fails at (c), and thus must be rejected.
...
* There is not one "speed running" community. There are several console speed running communities, several TAS communities, several general gaming communities (GameFAQs, GameSpot, Nintendo forums, Sony forums, etc). Different communities have different values, priorities, and objectives. A console speedrunning community is going to value reflexes, hand-eye coordination, quick thinking, judgments made in stressful situations, and skillful moves pulled off in real-time that demonstrate a mastery of the game attained through countless hours of practice. A TAS community is going to value insane tricks pulled off one after another, abusing the mechanics of a game in creative ways not thought possible, artistic showmanship, and a perfection of every maneuver in the video. It is the height of arrogance to attempt to impose your set of beliefs onto another community. You are basically saying, "my opinion is more correct than your opinion. My values are superior to your values."
...
* We can wish that TAS videos were labeled more appropriately and clearly, so that amateur viewers would know a spade for a spade. But, nothing is going to change unless the tactics change from "here are the 26 logical reasons why you should put CHEATED on your video" to a dialogue in which both communities make suggestions and have a civil debate about the best course of action.
...
* Unfortunately, I don't see that debate happening anytime soon. The TAS community seems perfectly happy with the "TAS" appelation and the way in which it is applied to their videos. They won't change their policies unless an alternative is suggested that THEY find more appealing, minority or no.
===
Sorry if this stirs up bad feelings or arguments again, but I felt the need to speak up. Time for me to vanish into the shadows from whence I came.
* p00f *

With everything that's been said, I'd just like to sum up my opinions.  Nothing that others haven't already stated, but still:
...
* the analogies of "majority/minority" and "law enforcement" might be logically sound - but they miss the point entirely.  Nate, Radix, anyone here at m2k2/sda - NONE OF US has any authority whatsoever to make Bisqwit's site, or other TASers, label their runs any differently.  My analogy is this - nate and Radix have a "jurisdiction" - m2k2 and SDA.  They can set the policies there as they see fit.  They have no say whatsoever in any policies at Bisqwit's site or any other TAS site.  It would be like the California State Police sending a harshly worded letter to the Illinois State Police, telling them exactly how they should rethink their policies regarding speed traps on the highway.  The Illinois State Police would likely respond, "Thanks very much.  Now shut the hell up and go away, asswipe."  Doesn't matter that California is more populous than Illinois, and thus could be seen as having the majority viewpoint.  They have no say whatsoever in anything that goes on outside of their jurisdiction.  Whether their opinion is right or not is irrelevant.  Whether their solution is obviously superior is irrelevant.  They are overstepping their bounds and are going to be ignored.  Just human nature to react that way when you feel someone is "butting in" or "not minding their own business".
...
* Given that we (meaning, m2k2 members, SDA members, console speedrunners, and console speedrun fans) cannot force the TAS community to do anything, we must PERSUADE them to do something.  A solution must be proposed that the TAS community finds to its liking, otherwise they will continue with the status quo.  As much as the word "cheated" would accomplish the purpose of quickly informing the average viewer that something about the gameplay they're about to watch is different... the TAS community is not going to accept the word.  It carries with it a broad negative connotation that they believe should not be attached to their videos.  So, they WON'T attach it to their vids.  End of discussion.  If someone can come up with a term that (a) explains clearly how the video content is made, (b) is easily understandable to a casual viewer, and (c) is accepted by the TAS community, then you have a solution.  Any term MUST accomplish objective (c) or it will not be used.  "Cheated" does well at (a) and (b), fails at (c), and thus must be rejected.
...
* There is not one "speed running" community.  There are several console speed running communities, several TAS communities, several general gaming communities (GameFAQs, GameSpot, Nintendo forums, Sony forums, etc).  Different communities have different values, priorities, and objectives.  A console speedrunning community is going to value reflexes, hand-eye coordination, quick thinking, judgments made in stressful situations, and skillful moves pulled off in real-time that demonstrate a mastery of the game attained through countless hours of practice.  A TAS community is going to value insane tricks pulled off one after another, abusing the mechanics of a game in creative ways not thought possible, artistic showmanship, and a perfection of every maneuver in the video.  It is the height of arrogance to attempt to impose your set of beliefs onto another community.  You are basically saying, "my opinion is more correct than your opinion.  My values are superior to your values."
...
* We can wish that TAS videos were labeled more appropriately and clearly, so that amateur viewers would know a spade for a spade.  But, nothing is going to change unless the tactics change from "here are the 26 logical reasons why you should put CHEATED on your video" to a dialogue in which both communities make suggestions and have a civil debate about the best course of action.
...
* Unfortunately, I don't see that debate happening anytime soon.  The TAS community seems perfectly happy with the "TAS" appelation and the way in which it is applied to their videos.  They won't change their policies unless an alternative is suggested that THEY find more appealing, minority or no.
===
Sorry if this stirs up bad feelings or arguments again, but I felt the need to speak up.  Time for me to vanish into the shadows from whence I came.
* p00f *

Maur

2006-05-24 08:08:12 pm

Please read the topic next time, Monster. >_>

Metatroid

(user is banned)

2006-05-24 08:17:17 pm

Hey, Maur, STFU. He has some points, you know.

Yoshi348

2006-05-24 08:46:47 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Do NOT go around telling other people to STFU. I will have no tolerance for flaming.

MonsterERB

2006-05-24 08:59:39 pm

I did read the topic, and I saw that nate had (slightly) changed his position. Still felt I needed to speak my mind, even though it had turned all warm and fuzzy. The whole premise under which the topic was made had zero percent chance of changing anything, from the get-go (in my opinion).
...
And, I'd also like to clarify that my mini-rant about "It is the height of arrogance to attempt to impose your set of beliefs onto another community. You are basically saying, "my opinion is more correct than your opinion. My values are superior to your values"... that was NOT directed specifically at nate. It's for all TAS haters, for all console haters, and for all who can't realize that BOTH kinds of gameplay have something to offer. You don't have to enjoy both, but try to be accepting of people who enjoy something you don't.

Maur

2006-05-24 10:18:00 pm

Quote:

I did read the topic, and I saw that nate had (slightly) changed his position.

Quote:

that was NOT directed specifically at nate.

Ah. Nevermind then. Sorry. :/

CALFoolio

2006-05-26 11:07:41 pm

wow, nate fails :(

nate

2006-05-27 12:21:08 am

because i gave up? :P

Zeke

2006-05-28 07:38:33 am

Time bomb set get out fast!

Quote from nate:

Quote from Maur:

However, if he tried to find other videos (probably through the website linked to in the vid, since that's the logical place to look), he'd quickly realized what happens. [...] And if he doesn't know it's a TAS, correcting that misconception is NOT worth the cost of denigrating an entire freaking community.

very good observation.

this is the first time anyone has said anything that has fundamentally changed how i think about the situation.

Why? Maur said exactly the same thing that all the tas supporters have been saying. It's the same argument I used to make myself: those who take an interest will find out the details, and those who don't shouldn't be important to us. No offense, Nate, but if that theory was new to you, you haven't been reading these threads very closely.

trh

2006-05-28 11:37:36 am

Translated and grammar/spelling fix'd conversation with my friend:
Friend: Heh, that Mario 64 run is sick.
Me: Paste link.
Friend: URL
Friend: No wait.
Friend: This one isn't even good.
Friend: there was another one.
Me: Link to that one.
Friend: Dammit, can't find it.
Me: How quick was it?
Friend: Don't know but he did completely awesome stuff.
Me: 16:27?
Friend: Yeah might have been that one.
Me: TAS URL
Friend: Yeah, that's the one.
Me: Is it good? Haven't seen it.
Friend: Yeah, it's sick, look at it.

This isn't the first time he's seen a speed run, he has pretty much seen all the Zelda ones and knows the OoT one by heart.

My friend might not be the brightest person but he's probably above the average intelligence on like, GFAQs. How he managed to miss the huuuge wall of text to the right I don't get though.

(And yes, I did explain to him that it was fake)

Translated and grammar/spelling fix'd conversation with my friend:
[b]Friend: Heh, that Mario 64 run is sick.[/b]
Me: Paste link.
[b]Friend: [url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5758951690288743080&q=super+mario+64+speedrun]URL[/url][/b]
[b]Friend: No wait.
[color=red]Friend: This one isn't even good.[/color]
Friend: there was another one.[/b]
Me: Link to that one.
[b]Friend: Dammit, can't find it.[/b]
Me: How quick was it?
[b]Friend: Don't know but he did completely awesome stuff.[/b]
Me: 16:27?
[b]Friend: Yeah might have been that one.[/b]
Me: [url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8473121833910554075&q=super+mario+64+16%3A27]TAS URL[/url]
[b]Friend: Yeah, that's the one.[/b]
Me: Is it good? Haven't seen it.
[b]Friend: Yeah, it's sick, look at it.[/b]

This isn't the first time he's seen a speed run, he has pretty much seen all the Zelda ones and knows the OoT one by heart.

My friend might not be the brightest person but he's probably above the average intelligence on like, GFAQs. How he managed to miss the huuuge wall of text to the right I don't get though.

(And yes, I did explain to him that it was fake)

nate

2006-05-28 06:21:06 pm

Quote from Zeke:

Quote from nate:

Quote from Maur:

However, if he tried to find other videos (probably through the website linked to in the vid, since that's the logical place to look), he'd quickly realized what happens. [...] And if he doesn't know it's a TAS, correcting that misconception is NOT worth the cost of denigrating an entire freaking community.

very good observation.

this is the first time anyone has said anything that has fundamentally changed how i think about the situation.

Why? Maur said exactly the same thing that all the tas supporters have been saying. It's the same argument I used to make myself: those who take an interest will find out the details, and those who don't shouldn't be important to us. No offense, Nate, but if that theory was new to you, you haven't been reading these threads very closely.

same thing as saying a retard is stupid. some things are harder for some people than for other people. my position gives me a lot of advantages over you, but i have to pay a price for that in the form of looking like a total moron now and again.

as for the above post, clearly the status quo is not ideal even for the second group (those who will eventually contribute to the speed running community). but i still believe that the best way to work on that is to make sda more dominant and tas proportionally less so (at least deceptive tas).

[quote="Zeke"][quote="nate"][quote="Maur"] However, if he tried to find other videos (probably through the website linked to in the vid, since that's the logical place to look), he'd quickly realized what happens. [...] And if he doesn't know it's a TAS, correcting that misconception is [b]NOT[/b] worth the cost of denigrating an entire freaking community.[/quote]

[b]very good observation[/b].

this is the first time anyone has said anything that has fundamentally changed how i think about the situation.[/quote]

Why?  Maur said exactly the same thing that all the tas supporters have been saying.  It's the same argument I used to make myself: those who take an interest will find out the details, and those who don't shouldn't be important to us.  No offense, Nate, but if that theory was new to you, you haven't been reading these threads very closely.[/quote]
same thing as saying a retard is stupid. some things are harder for some people than for other people. my position gives me a lot of advantages over you, but i have to pay a price for that in the form of looking like a total moron now and again.

as for the above post, clearly the status quo is not ideal even for the second group (those who will eventually contribute to the speed running community). but i still believe that the best way to work on that is to make sda more dominant and tas proportionally less so (at least deceptive tas).